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[JayWood2010]

Fight Sticks do not give you an advantage over a gamepad. It is a comfort thing, and why you see many pros sticking with a regular controller.

In theory, at best it will give you an easier time to hit face buttons at the same time rather than hitting the triggers and bumpers on controller.

Not even remotely similar to M/KB vs Controller. Its a huge advantage.

 

[Xater]

So, if M+KB suddenly gets official support tomorrow, you would be ok with it?

There is a significant difference between people buying a device to trick the console into using a different hardware and a game just supporting this input method without any hassle. I probably would not play those games though, because I like the comfort of playing with a pad on my couch. Right now there is no way for me to avoid these people.

 

[SScorpio]

Regular mouse > console-filtered mouse >>>> dual analog controller.

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. Just because it doesn't behave exactly like a PC mouse doesn't mean that it doesn't offer a huge aiming advantage. I've played enough Siege to know that.

Then doesn't this show that the current control methods are sub optimal and the console makers should figure out a better control method? FPS games on the Wii with the nunchuck and wiimote were really fun to control. I felt it was very close to what you get with mouse control.

Or as people were already mentioning, make it something supported on the system level, and have the option in-game of multiple control type queues. You could still have people buying things like the XIM and playing with controller players. But the number would be cut down a lot since people generally don't spend money on something that's not required, and you run into issues with turbo controllers and people introducing lag to get an advantage already.

 

[ironmang]

So, if M+KB suddenly gets official support tomorrow, you would be ok with it?

No? Sticks are officially supported meaning they're as good as they're going to get and pad players are still among the best players. Like I said in that post, if kb/m was officially supported and was brought up to how it performs on PC then it'd be a disaster for controller players. Games would be determined entirely by the distribution of kb/m players on the teams.

 

[JayWood2010]

Taking away someone's chosen way of playing a game because others dislike it or consider it cheating is lame, plus the old saying of PC-desk, console-couch is dead, I know many PC gamers that play multiplayer games, hell all their games, with a controllers on a couch and they all seem to get by just fine against mouse and keyboard players.

Its not about disliking something. Its about it being borderline cheating.

Ive done it before. Its a massive difference on how much an advantage the M/KB players had on me. Ive always been good in competitive multiplayer games on console, so i jumped in on Rainbow Six Siege, which i also own on Console. M/KB players would wreck me as they could pinpoint my head every time. Meanwhile on Console i would wreck other people with a controller.

You can act like its not a big difference but the fact will always be that it is.

 

[Hasney]

If you need an adapter to use it in the first place, then that should tell you devs don't want it to be used in their game

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/tac-pro-for-playstation-4/

Sony endorsed. I guess it's all fine then.

 

[RawNuts]

Then doesn't this show that the current control methods are sub optimal and the console makers should figure out a better control method? FPS games on the Wii with the nunchuck and wiimote were really fun to control. I felt it was very close to what you get with mouse control.

Or as people were already mentioning, make it something supported on the system level, and have the option in-game of multiple control type queues. You could still have people buying things like the XIM and playing with controller players. But the number would be cut down a lot since people generally don't spend money on something that's not required, and you run into issues with turbo controllers and people introducing lag to get an advantage already.

Absolutely, but that is a whole other discussion to be had on that.

I just can't stand it when I see people downplay the effectiveness of these devices, as if they're exactly the same as playing with a controller.

 

[jdmonmou]

No? Sticks are officially supported meaning they're as good as they're going to get and pad players are still among the best players. Like I said in that post, if kb/m was officially supported and was brought up to how it performs on PC then it'd be a disaster for controller players. Games would be determined entirely by the distribution of kb/m players on the teams.

But there's nothing stopping you from also playing on M+KB. Why force everyone to play the way you like to. So I guess you're also against cross platform play between console and PC? You just wouldn't play Player Unknown Battlegrounds on Xbox because PC players would ruin the experience with KB+M?

 

[Budi]

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/tac-pro-for-playstation-4/

Sony endorsed. I guess it's all fine then.

Whaaat!! Sony endorsing cheating, they need to get more flack for this! And they say that PC is bad because of cheaters! Imagine if Valve was sharing multiplayer cheats in Steam workshop.

Spoiler

/s

 

[JayWood2010]

Then doesn't this show that the current control methods are sub optimal and the console makers should figure out a better control method? FPS games on the Wii with the nunchuck and wiimote were really fun to control. I felt it was very close to what you get with mouse control.

Console gaming was never designed for M/KB, and from what ive seen the majority of the console community wants it to remain controller.

If you want to play with m/kb then play on pc.

 

[Ivan 3414]

It's crazy that the default controllers on consoles are so terrible for FPS games that they are massively outperformed by a mouse pretending to be an analog stick with all the limitations that brings with it. Rather than ask for better a better standard input method people demand everyone else be saddled with the same terrible controls. Crabs in a barrel seems applicable here.

That's one way to frame it, but if there were such an outcry for the superior controls of the PC master race there would have been people clamoring for mouse and keyboard support eons ago.

Fact of the matter is the majority of console players don't give a fucking shit about these "superior" input methods. And M + KB aren't such a boon to gaming that they need to be the "standard" on console; for every genre that is better on M + KB there are two that are better with a controller. People actually like controllers and they shouldn't have to pay extra just to be on a level playing field with other players, bottom line.

 

[ironmang]

But there's nothing stopping you from also playing on M+KB. Why force everyone to play the way you like to. So I guess you're also against cross platform play between console and PC? You just wouldn't play Player Unknown Battlegrounds on Xbox because PC players would ruin the experience with KB+M?

What is more reasonable? Expect 10s of millions of people to buy kb/m in order for games to be somewhat fair OR just don't allow it in the first place and preserve the level playing field? Like I said, games would be determined by who in the game has kb/m.

And yes, I already don't have a lot of interest in playing shooters on console these days and absolutely would never buy a FPS if kb/m was encouraged through crossplay or support from the console manufacturers. Using my kb/m setup against controller users just doesn't sound challenging or fun.

 

[scanferr]

Console gaming was never designed for M/KB, and from what ive seen the majority of the console community wants it to remain controller.

If you want to play with m/kb then play on pc.

What's wrong with evolution? People on PC play with controllers too, certain games.

 

[The Dear Leader]

Its not about disliking something. Its about it being borderline cheating.

Ive done it before. Its a massive difference on how much an advantage the M/KB players had on me. Ive always been good in competitive multiplayer games on console, so i jumped in on Rainbow Six Siege, which i also own on Console. M/KB players would wreck me as they could pinpoint my head every time. Meanwhile on Console i would wreck other people with a controller.

You can act like its not a big difference but the fact will always be that it is.

In your opinion of course, as I gave an example of it being the exact opposite, not a big difference. It's one of those things where there's nothing I can say to change your mind so I won't try but just know there are people out there and games out there that mix input methods and thrive regardless of skill gap, for example I've yet to see a M+KB jet or helicopter pilot in BF4 on PC worth a damn compared to a controller pilot, as I've yet to see a Recon player worth a damn with a controller. I wouldn't say Mr. DualShock 4 Pilot is a cheater, nor would I consider someone using a mouse and keyboard on console cheating. At the end of the day, it makes no difference to the enjoyment of the game for me.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Lol mouse + keyboard is a big advantage for the average user and it's outright "unfair" for good mouse users.

People who think they can hang with mouse users are delusional or naive.

There's no great way at stopping this behavior and just points to the vanity of taking games super seriously. There's always a way to pay for an advantage. It's just the way it is.

 

[boiled goose]

Playing shooters competitively to win.

Uses dual analogue.

Wut.


Let them play and rightfully win

 

[nynt9]

What? Sounds to me people who use mouse just need to defend why they cheat to feel better about themselves in competitive shooters.

People don't use them because the whole god damn purpose of console gaming is couch and tv environment.. holy shit. Who the hell wants to play mouse and keyboard on the couch. It's cheating. It's for people who suck with a controller and instead of trying they need to cheat with a mouse in order to keep up. There is no other argument, wtf is wrong with GAF today?

Edit: fucking aimbot hacks allow for better precision as well. Why the fuck won't you guys step your game up and install aimbots? They should be allowed, since it's way more intuitive than using your fucking brain to aim

Wow, you sound really mad. The Tac pro is officially endorsed by Sony. It's not a cheat. If you get this mad over competitive play, you can just get a mouse yourself. If competitive play is that big a deal to you, why play with an inferior controller?

 

[NEO0MJ]

Console gamers right now.

 

[Kinyou]

Playing shooters competitively to win.

Uses dual analogue.

Wut.


Let them play and rightfully win

What's weird about that if it's a level playing field? Do you also mock soccer players for not using their hands?

 

[Gravy Boat]

I think that keyboard and mouse would maybe be a better control scheme for people with certain disabilities so for that reason I don't want to see anyone trying to ban them.

 

[NEO0MJ]

What's weird about that if it's a level playing field? Do you also mock soccer players for not using their hands?

Before console shooters got popular thanks to Halo mouse and keyboard was the traditional method of playing them competitively.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

What's weird about that if it's a level playing field? Do you also mock soccer players for not using their hands?

I greatly prefer mouse and keyboard, but I don't understand the mentality that controller can't be competitive.

I love the skill needed to play competitive Halo. It's a different skill. You aim and move differently with a controller, but it's a legitimate skill to be mastered.

 

[texhnolyze]

I mean, would people even notice they're playing against KB+M users before perceiving this kind of information?

 

[McCHitman]

So mastering a controller is considered virtuous? Is that your point? Seems like the controller is the incorrect control method for the game based on this description alone. It sounds INSANE to use a controller based on this description. Like why would I use it?


I would like to say that I love using controllers for most games but clearly not for this genre.

I woulnd't say its virtuous. But it's much harder than a mouse and keyboard. Some people use mouse and keyboard daily not even for just gaming. It would be so easy for them to pick it up and just naturally know what to do, and be perfectly servicable at whatever they are doing. Point and click. You don't even have analog control on the movement.

There are some people that can't even grasp how to move a character in 3D space with 2 analog sticks. Their brains can't even comprehend it, let alone try to aim at someones head, while the target is moving, while trying to keep track of the speed and distance they are moving the sticks since they are analog movements on both axis.

I wouldn't say it's incorrect because it works and it's good. But if your looking at accuracy and pure efficiency, there's no question that it seems stupid to use a controller. But the decision is a lot of things- comfort plays a role, personal choice, heck all mice(?) aren't even equal.

 

[Kinyou]

Before console shooters got popular thanks to Halo mouse and keyboard was the traditional method of playing them competitively.

True, but I don't see why you would not be able to be competitive if everyone has the same limitations as you do.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I mean, would people even notice they're playing against KB+M users before perceiving this kind of information?

I've played high ranked destiny and Halo 5 matches where it's abundantly clear lol

The speed and precision can be hilariously overpowered. You have to be careful to not assume, but you can tell in Halo 5 theater by the movement of the reticle. People can no scope you across map in a heart beat. It's actually hilarious to me.

 

[PeskyToaster]

It's cheating and should be treated as such in multiplayer. Also why devs don't regulate firing rate on semi auto weapons is beyond me. people gaming the FAL in MW2 or pistols in other games with controller modifications. It's not hard to put a cap on it unless you didn't think about it when planning the game.

 

[jdmonmou]

What is more reasonable? Expect 10s of millions of people to buy kb/m in order for games to be somewhat fair OR just don't allow it in the first place and preserve the level playing field? Like I said, games would be determined by who in the game has kb/m.

And yes, I already don't have a lot of interest in playing shooters on console these days and absolutely would never buy a FPS if kb/m was encouraged through crossplay or support from the console manufacturers. Using my kb/m setup against controller users just doesn't sound challenging or fun.

I just think it's reasonable to let people play the way they want and leave it at that. Microsoft is bringing KB+Mouse support to Xbox and that's a good thing since it'll level the playing field on cross platform titles and open up Xbox to get games that traditionally have been exclusive to PC because they require KB and mouse.

 

[nynt9]

It's cheating and should be treated as such in multiplayer.

There's an officially licensed by Sony mouse for PS4. Microsoft have said they want to support it on the OS level.

 

[Duxxy3]

I still consider it cheating in the console space.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

It's obviously a massive, unfair advantage but not against the rules. I wouldn't feel good destroying controller users with KB+M as it's not even a fair fight. I don't remember which one but one of the CoDs on PC indicated people using controllers and those guys were always at the bottom by a mile, I'd kill them before they could even react. I actually tried using a controller for a day on PC, I went from a top of the board player to middle of the pack average Joe and I had to play so much slower just to achieve that.

 

[aspiegamer]

Just wanted to throw in something about racing wheels. It's actually the pedals that create the advantage of use, not the steering wheel proper. With practice players actually develop a ridiculous level of accuracy with an analog stick for steering. A foot modulating a pedal is far more precise than a finger trying to work an analogue trigger, however, the same way flicking a mouse is simpler and more precise than fidgeting with a stick + trigger + adjusting to camera spin at the same time.

It's not really comparable in terms of player results, either. Starting to use a wheel rig won't magically improve your skill in a racing sim. You might learn a little faster + it adds on top of already talented players and lets them go that little extra distance for a second faster a lap. You have to already be good--Knowing the tracks, cars, tuning, physics of racing, etc to get true benefits. I'll use my time in the GT Sport beta as an example-- I do better with slower cars because they rely more on steering accuracy than throttle adjustments. The high-end racing machines almost 100% require car assists turned on or on higher to keep moving even in a straight line with the standard controller for various reasons. Yes, it's theoretically possible to be as accurate, but that's beyond superhuman for all but a few people.

It's possible to have maybe 3-4 pressures built in to muscle memory for the throttle trigger, but that's still nothing compared to continuous variable control and precision on a pedal. It would take a controller with adjustable pressures in the triggers and manual input acceleration settings enabled to get to that same level, and even then it wouldn't be as good. Does it upset me that putting in the cash for a wheel rig could make me faster? Marginally, maybe? But since I understand what my own limits are and that 90%+ of what I get out of racing come from a baseline skill level that no one can replicate without experience I've never once been frustrated that I won/lost anything because of my input method. Combined with smart matchmaking that will continue to promote the fastest players and it's a total non-issue for me.

 

[jdmonmou]

Fight Sticks do not give you an advantage over a gamepad. It is a comfort thing, and why you see many pros sticking with a regular controller.

In theory, at best it will give you an easier time to hit face buttons at the same time rather than hitting the triggers and bumpers on controller.

Not even remotely similar to M/KB vs Controller. Its a huge advantage.

It depends on the fighting game. For Tekken I can use a gamepad but for Street Fighter I need a fight stick to have easy access to the LMH attack buttons and joystick to consistently pull off those quarter circle and Z motions to do the special moves.

The point is its not cheating if everyone playing online can go out and buy a quality fight stick. It should be left up to the player to decide what controller works best for him or her personally without being restricted by arbitrary rules on consoles.

 

[ironmang]

I just think it's reasonable to let people play the way they want and leave it at that. Microsoft is bringing KB+Mouse support to Xbox and that's a good thing since it'll level the playing field on cross platform titles and open up Xbox to get games that traditionally have been exclusive to PC because they require KB and mouse.

Some people want to play games with cheats. Some people want to troll their teammates. Just because someone has fun doing something doesn't mean it should be allowed if it negatively impacts the majority. Just go play on PC or learn how to use a controller.

It depends on the fighting game. For Tekken I can use a gamepad but for Street Fighter I need a fight stick to have easy access to the LMH attack buttons and joystick to consistently pull off those quarter circle and Z motions to do the special moves.

The point is its not cheating if everyone playing online can go out and buy a quality fight stick. It should be left up to the player to decide what controller works best for him or her personally without being restricted by arbitrary rules on consoles.

The difference is mouse is far superior to analog stick. Fight sticks aren't far superior to pads as you can see by tournament results. I can't find any PC shooter pros on pad.

 

[Izuna]

I mean, would people even notice they're playing against KB+M users before perceiving this kind of information?

Fuck yes.

Thats how people carried Trials on Destiny.

 

[MUnited83]

Console gaming was never designed for M/KB, and from what ive seen the majority of the console community wants it to remain controller.

If you want to play with m/kb then play on pc.

Or you can just buy an adapter that the platform holder literally endorses?

If you don't like M+KB people in your games you are going to learn to deal with it. It's not going away.

Some people want to play games with cheats. Some people want to troll their teammates. Just because someone has fun doing something doesn't mean it should be allowed if it negatively impacts the majority. Just go play on PC or learn how to use a controller.



The difference is mouse is far superior to analog stick. Fight sticks aren't far superior to pads as you can see by tournament results. I can't find any PC shooter pros on pad.

The only one that needs learning is you, to deal with it. This isn't going away.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I think I'm going to buy one now. I'm inspired.

 

[Drillary Clinton]

I mean, would people even notice they're playing against KB+M users before perceiving this kind of information?

You can easily tell from watching a kill cam on, say, Overwatch or Siege, if someone is using a MKB adapter.

And I'm not a big fan of segmenting the player bases of some games by MKB users and controller users. Imagine how segmentation like that could hurt games like Titanfall 2

 

[Alienous]

As someone said earlier if KB + M is widely supported for FPS games then it simply becomes a case of 'you have to get one if you want to keep up', which just isn't the case for Fighting Sticks (based on the fact that some top tournament players used gamepads). It's disingenuous to present the situations as similar.

I don't want to have to play a game, sitting on a couch with a dinner tray on my lap, just to keep up. It's a sub-optimal control scheme for common console gaming setups when it comes to practicality. People shouldn't have to transfer en masse to a less comfortable control method just to have a semblance of competitive viability.

I'd feel differently if a gamepad afforded the same level of accuracy.

 

[UltimateUnknown]

This is absolutely a terrible idea. KB&M should never be allowed on console online FPS games. If you want to use it in SP/co-op games, go ahead, but it should be banned outright from use in MP. There is a big difference in the level of precision you can get while aiming between a controller and KB&M. It would essentially ruin any semblance of balance in competitive games altogether. At that point you may as well have cross-play between PC and consoles in FPS, which isn't the case for a reason.

 

[ironmang]

The only one that needs learning is you, to deal with it. This isn't going away.

I will deal with it. By never buying a console shooter. LOL

Unlike people pushing kb/m I'm not so bad that I need a massive edge to have fun. I'll just stick to PC shooters.

But yeah, you're clueless if you don't think there will be massive blowback when it gets to the point that you need a kb/m if you want to be competitive at all on console. When it negatively impacts sales then they'll do something about it.

 

[Peterc]

It's the only way to play fps games not in a gimmick way by using keyboard and mouse.

If they want core gamers playing fps games online on a console, they should make a prior online mode for that and second all the other gimmicks together for those who are more of a casual gamer.

It's open market to go big in esport with fps and even rts games, it would be a much better move for Microsoft to focus on that so they can win a new audience instead of bringing Scorpio to have better hardware.

 

[McCHitman]

I still consider it cheating in the console space.

I don't blame you. You expect a level playing field.

If consoles start allowing this you'll get 1 of 2 things-

Player count will drop when people start to not have fun due to it if the amount of people using KB&M ventures into each game.

Or they will make their own branded, 1st party KB&M perhipreal(sp?) and hope that people get on the bandwagon.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Aside from people with a disability, people who need these adaptors need to get good at using a pad, end of.

You just suck. Play the oh but i can't get used to it card if you want, but newsflash, 99% of console players had to get good at using a pad too.

 

[nynt9]

Aside from people with a disability, people who need these adaptors need to get good at using a pad, end of.

You just suck. Play the oh but i can't get used to it card if you want, but newsflash, 99% of console players had to get good at using a pad too.

Or, people who use controllers that are upset about this need to get a mouse or stop complaining, end of.

You just use a sucky input method. Play the oh you can get used to it card if you want, but newsflash, no one cares. If you take competitive gaming seriously enough that this really bothers you, why aren't you switching to a mouse instead? No one is forcing you to use a controller.

 

[Hasney]

Aside from people with a disability, people who need these adaptors need to get good at using a pad, end of.

You just suck. Play the oh but i can't get used to it card if you want, but newsflash, 99% of console players had to get good at using a pad too.

Great. There's options out there to not have to so you can't say what others can and cannot do.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Or, people who use controllers that are upset about this need to get a mouse or stop complaining, end of.

You just use a sucky input method. Play the oh you can get used to it card if you want, but newsflash, no one cares. If you take competitive gaming seriously enough that this really bothers you, why aren't you switching to a mouse instead? No one is forcing you to use a controller.

Nice try. But I'm not buying any of it.

I game in both console and PC and I'm proficient with both, I don't need an unfair advantage over other console players.

Yeah that's why Call of Duty pro players use a mouse and keyboard...oh wait.

Great. There's options out there to not have to so you can't say what others can and cannot do.

And not one of them is official. I can have an opinion on it.

 

[Hasney]

And not one of them is official. I can have an opinion on it.

Sony sells and endorses a mouse on their very store.

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/tac-pro-for-playstation-4/

And also officially licensed a HORI one.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Sony sells and endorses a mouse on their very store.

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/tac-pro-for-playstation-4/

And also officially licensed a HORI one.

I'm talking squarely of these adaptors. But that changes things somewhat I admit...I still don't believe in there use though aside from aiding people with a disability.

Edit: seems like reviews of it say it's a bit rubbish though.

 

[nynt9]

I'm talking squarely of these adaptors. But that changes things somewhat I admit...I still don't believe in there use though aside from aiding people with a disability.

That device is even better than just a MKB adaptor because you get analog left stick movement instead of the digital you'd get with a keyboard.