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[ElFly]

I don't doubt that the characters needed more development and that the movie is overly long even without that. could have been way better in both respects

however I still liked it cause it showed us a side we don't normally see to the Rebellion and also because it is largely devoid of Jedis on the good side (Donnie Yen doesn't count)

 

[The Scollard]

Prequels were better/more original am i rite

No. I hate the prequels because they are terrible movies. Rogue One may be better than the prequels, but that just means its a general fuck-up instead of the dumpster fire that is the PT.

I'm not a fan of TFA (I have so many problems with that movie), but even it engaged me more than R1. While I started souring on TFA after thinking about the film and on rewatch (except for one scene, which made me roll my eyes during my viewing of it at the theater), Rogue One couldn't even engage me my first time seeing it. I think Rey and Finn are thinly-written characters, but their actors give them enough charisma that I liked them when I was watching the movie, and even they, as thin as they are, are better than any of the characters in Rogue One.

The prequels being bad movies and fucking things up doesn't mean you should just leave out the elements they fucked up. You should put in an effort to do those things, but do them well. One of my big gripes with TFA was how badly set up its universe was in terms of the Republic, the Resistance, and The First Order; it needed some space politics. And like Rich Evans said in the Previously Recorded No Man's Sky review "Just because George Lucas fucked up space politics doesn't mean you shouldn't put them in your game. Deep Space 9 was seven seasons of space politics, and it was fucking amazing."

 

[ryutaro's mama]

How exactly do you build up rich stories and interactions for each member in 2 hours while keeping the film moving?

Go watch any well done movie with an ensemble cast.

Ronin comes immediately to mind. They don't need rich stories--just interpersonal ones.

Also see: the Space Marines in Aliens

 

[Scrooged]

The prequels being bad movies and fucking things up doesn't mean you should just leave out the elements they fucked up. You should put in an effort to do those things, but do them well. One of my big gripes with TFA was how badly set up its universe was in terms of the Republic, the Resistance, and The First Order; it needed some space politics. And like Rich Evans said in the Previously Recorded No Man's Sky review "Just because George Lucas fucked up space politics doesn't mean you shouldn't put them in your game. Deep Space 9 was seven seasons of space politics, and it was fucking amazing."

This is a really good point. Unfortunately it seems like they are keeping all of the 'boring' stuff in other media such as the novelization and comics and whatnot. For example, the TFA novel kind of fleshes out the relationships between Leia, the New Republic and the Resistance. The new canon is being told cross-media. And to keep with the analogy, they are more comfortable with filling the big blockbuster movies with icing and relegating the cake to pages of the novels.

 

[Gunslinger]

I thought the crew was fine. It was more about the war effort and these rebels sacrificing everything to give the fleet a chance to destroy this weapon. How exactly do you build up rich stories and interactions for each member in 2 hours while keeping the film moving?

Seven samurai or magnificent seven (original) or 13 assassins or five deadly venoms and many more.

 

[A-V-B]

Go watch any well done movie with an ensemble cast.

Ronin comes immediately to mind. They don't need rich stories--just interpersonal ones.

Also see: the Space Marines in Aliens

Go watch Seven Samurai, too.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Go watch any well done movie with an ensemble cast.

That's what I like about these discussions, even when I don't find a film to be as lacking/problematic as others do: they tend to lead to recommendations of other films that are very worthy of examining or even re-exami—

Ronin comes immediately to mind.

nevermind

 

[theCalamity]

A huge flaw in the characterization in R1 is that they don't talk to each other in meaningful ways that deepens their relationship to each other, which the RLM video pointed out.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It doesn't even have to be altogether meaningful ways. Just in ways that allow aspects of the personality to come out more and solidify for the audience. Like I said on the last page - the fact most of the characters really only bounce off either Jyn or Cassian kinda limits the possibilities for their personalities to really expand.

I don't think that flaw is that huge. It's still a flaw though, and I see how it's preventing people from latching onto the characters to varying degrees, but I also see that viewers are also having a not-too-difficult (and even easy!) time connecting with these characters, and feeling their loss - although I think some of that has to do with the really well-edited last third that uses music, cutting, and completion of their tasks to bring a weight to bear on what's happening that hasn't been done in previous Star Wars films.

 

[zsynqx]

Have to agree with Plinkett on this one.

Saw it for the first time today and found it very underwhelming. Hate to repeat what others have likely brought up a million times, but I just didn't really care about any of the characters. Same issue I had with Godzilla, Edward's previous film,.

I loved TFA though and cannot wait for episode VIII.

 

[televator]

I appreciate RLM's take for the most part, but i also just got back from watching R1 and I thought it was fucking face melting awesome! The battle scenes made Lucas' directed battles look even more embarrassing than they were before. And Vader... oh my god... Vader rekt! I could fap to his scenes, they were so satisfying after years of dealing with Anakin the baby killer.

 

[The Scollard]

This is a really good point. Unfortunately it seems like they are keeping all of the 'boring' stuff in other media such as the novelization and comics and whatnot. For example, the TFA novel kind of fleshes out the relationships between Leia, the New Republic and the Resistance. The new canon is being told cross-media. And to keep with the analogy, they are more comfortable with filling the big blockbuster movies with icing and relegating the cake to pages of the novels.

Yes. Exactly.

In one of the other Rogue One threads, somebody mentioned when someone else was talking about how they wanted the characters to be more interesting that that person was asking for exposition, like it was a bad thing. I wanted more exposition in Rogue One and The Force Awakens, I just want that explanation to be good. The prequels weren't bad movies because they had exposition in them, they were bad movies because they did that exposition badly. In his article on TFA, Film Critic Hulk points out how the original trilogy had lots of exposition (like the "I find your lack of faith disturbing" scene); it just knew how to keep the audience engaged while it told them about its universe.

It feels like nowadays, especially in TFA, that the filmmakers are just doing without these major things because the prequels did them badly. JJ cut out a few scenes of Leia talking with a representative of the Republic to get rid of that "nasty" space politics, and the whole film feels like it moves so fast that they didn't want to slow down in case they were "boring", like the prequels. ESB, probably my favourite SW movie, has a ton of scenes which are "boring", like when the Falcon is hiding out in the worm.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Same issue I had with Godzilla, Edward's previous film,.

See, I feel like Rogue One only improves when placed next to Monsters and Godzilla. Not that the problems are completely erased, but this is the first movie of his where the people are people, and not just things placed in the frame to enhance the scale of the other stuff in the frame he really wants you to pay attention to.

The leap from Godzilla to Rogue One is considerable on that front. His actors are acting. Emoting. Feeling things. Reacting appropriately to complications and obstacles placed in their way.

This is not a thing that's really happened in his previous movies at all.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

That's what I like about these discussions, even when I don't find a film to be as lacking/problematic as others do: they tend to lead to recommendations of other films that are very worthy of examining or even re-exami—



nevermind

Good thing that was the end of my post...oh wait, it wasn't.

Cameron's space marines run circles around the R1 "team".

 

[plasmawave]

Is pointing out boring characters and paper thin plot really "nit picking"?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Good thing that was the end of my post.

It was a joke, Ryu. I'm goofing on you. You used RONIN as a positive example of something that wasn't a car chase. I'm gonna goof on you for that. It's not a big deal.

It's why I left out the ALIENS part. I'd already brought that example up myself, yunno?

Jesus.

 

[TAJ]

See, I feel like Rogue One only improves when placed next to Monsters and Godzilla. Not that the problems are completely erased, but this is the first movie of his where the people are people, and not just things placed in the frame to enhance the scale of the other stuff in the frame he really wants you to pay attention to.

The leap from Godzilla to Rogue One is considerable on that front. His actors are acting. Emoting. Feeling things. Reacting appropriately to complications and obstacles placed in their way.

When does that start? It must be in the last ten minutes.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

Agree with them about the flick. It is a shame that there's really nothing to the characters because if they had spent just a little time on them it would be up there with the OT.

Is pointing out boring characters and paper thin plot really "nit picking"?

Nope.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

It was a joke, Ryu. I'm goofing on you. You used RONIN as a positive example of something that wasn't a car chase. I'm gonna goof on you for that. It's not a big deal.

And yet, the team of uneven parts thrown together to retrieve a McGuffin in RONIN had a lot more interpersonal development than any in R1.

That DeNiro Sean Bean scene ( where Bean is exposed as a fraud) alone is greater than any exchange between any 2 characters in R1.

Not getting the "goofing"...as flawed as RONIN was, I gave more of a shit about their characters.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

When does that start? It must be in the last ten minutes.

(shrug)

Dunno what to tell you man. If you didn't think Felicity Jones wasn't trying to essay an actual human being when she's listening to Mads Mikkelsen's transmission, or that her and Diego Luna weren't going for something that resembled honest emotion as he's gaslighting her post-Eadu, then I mean... I dunno how to convince you otherwise, or that it'd be worth the attempt. It doesn't work for you that thoroughly, it's just a loss at that point. Eh. Like, for example:

And yet, the team of uneven parts thrown together to retrieve a McGuffin in RONIN had a lot more interpersonal development than any in R1.

That DeNiro Sean Bean scene ( where Bean is exposed as a fraud) alone is greater than any exchange between any 2 characters in R1.

Not getting the "goofing"...as flawed as RONIN was, I gave more of a shit about their characters.

There is no way in for me to this POV. I've seen RONIN like 3 times and there are no characters in it. It's an amazing piece of technical filmmaking from Frankenheimer but I never once gave a shit about anyone in it at any time beyond their ability to shoot things and drive amazingly. I wouldn't tell anyone not to watch it, because I think it's a worthwhile watch, but it would never occur to me to hold it up as an example of good characterization in a million years. Which is I why I goofed on you for doing so.

 

[Speevy]

Rogue One advertises itself as a Star Wars story, a story that tells how something we already know happened. If you read the plot synopsis, it's a minor story about a group of people you may or may not care about. That's not a flaw. That's just what it is.

It doesn't advertise itself as the next great saga of endlessly quotable action figures.

It also differentiates itself by being darker and grittier in tone, just plain better in terms of action set pieces, and full of small universe-building details that enrich the world it's borrowing from.

People are putting too much on this film's rather unassuming shoulders. Frankly plenty of people are projecting their secret disappointment with The Force Awakens with a film that wants absolutely nothing to do with anything that film is doing.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

There is no way in for me to this POV. I've seen RONIN like 3 times and there are no characters in it. It's an amazing piece of technical filmmaking from Frankenheimer but I never once gave a shit about anyone in it at any time beyond their ability to shoot things and drive amazingly. I wouldn't tell anyone not to watch it, because I think it's a worthwhile watch, but it would never occur to me to hold it up as an example of good characterization in a million years. Which is I why I goofed on you for doing so.

I made it clear I felt it was flawed, yet in SPITE OF THAT, it still had greater character interactions than R1. You made it clear there is "no way in for me to this POV" so we are at an impasse.

Oh well.

 

[.JayZii]

Is pointing out boring characters and paper thin plot really "nit picking"?

It is when you come after Star Wars. The franchise everyone loves, whether they know it or not.

 

[Tansut]

See, I feel like Rogue One only improves when placed next to Monsters and Godzilla. Not that the problems are completely erased, but this is the first movie of his where the people are people, and not just things placed in the frame to enhance the scale of the other stuff in the frame he really wants you to pay attention to.

The leap from Godzilla to Rogue One is considerable on that front. His actors are acting. Emoting. Feeling things. Reacting appropriately to complications and obstacles placed in their way.

This is not a thing that's really happened in his previous movies at all.

There is nowhere to go but up when you compare anything to Monsters. But yeah, Rogue One shows definite improvement in that regard.

 

[darkistheway]

I've found that on rewatch, the last third knits up even tighter than it did on first watch, but the first third is done no favors. The characterization doesn't really improve from spending more time with them. There's not a whole lot there that wasn't easily caught on first view - if they didn't hit w/ you initially, they're probably not gonna hit any harder.

I also think some of that has to do with the nature of the film as a "Men on a Mission" thing, which tends to look at its characters as not much more than their function on the mission. There are ways to deepen those characters through the course of that mission playing out, and it tends to really come out when the characters have to interact and bounce off the other members of the team, and this is where Rogue One falters more than other similar films: Nobody really bounces off anyone but Jyn or Cassian. I said in another thread that it's like—imagine ALIENS where the marines basically only talk to either Ripley or Hicks. Maybe Gorman. That would reduce a lot of their personalities automatically.

That's what happens with Rogue One.

So it really comes down to whether the sketches the Actors are charged with bringing to life are good enough for you on first go. And if they aren't - you're probably going to always feel the film is lacking. Which is absolutely valid - and in a way that doesn't tend to bring in this weird undercurrent of general condescension/distaste towards both fans/fandom, and towards the percieved low-level-intelligence of general audiences and their inability to understand genre entertainment—both of which are elements I feel have become very stong hooks for RLM viewers, to try and tie this sidetrack back to the thread's original intent.

This is a really good post.

 

[FLEABttn]

The two shootout scenes really drove home everything I disliked about R1

Han and Leia are nonstop shit talking each other and it adds tension to the scene

Jyn and whatshisface are just shooting dudes like theyre playing the new CoD. not giving a shit

Cassian and Jyn (with the robot) get chatty a minute or two after this part. Maybe not as good, but it's still somewhat here.

It's almost as if Rogue One was going for a different tone.

Which I liked but then it was undermined by the levity of the dialogue that came after.

 

[theCalamity]

I don't think that flaw is that huge. It's still a flaw though, and I see how it's preventing people from latching onto the characters to varying degrees, but I also see that viewers are also having a not-too-difficult (and even easy!) time connecting with these characters, and feeling their loss - although I think some of that has to do with the really well-edited last third that uses music, cutting, and completion of their tasks to bring a weight to bear on what's happening that hasn't been done in previous Star Wars films.

You're right. It's not a huge flaw for most people, but it's a big one for me.I really wanted to feel for these characters and camaraderie between them would've helped instead of just being in their respective couplings. If it works for others, that's great. I wish it worked for me.

 

[Rumblebones]

His TFA review was utter shite so I'm not too excited for his review of Rogue One, though I also thought it was almost aggressively mediocre.

 

[Anth0ny]

I've found that on rewatch, the last third knits up even tighter than it did on first watch, but the first third is done no favors. The characterization doesn't really improve from spending more time with them. There's not a whole lot there that wasn't easily caught on first view - if they didn't hit w/ you initially, they're probably not gonna hit any harder.

I also think some of that has to do with the nature of the film as a "Men on a Mission" thing, which tends to look at its characters as not much more than their function on the mission. There are ways to deepen those characters through the course of that mission playing out, and it tends to really come out when the characters have to interact and bounce off the other members of the team, and this is where Rogue One falters more than other similar films: Nobody really bounces off anyone but Jyn or Cassian. I said in another thread that it's like—imagine ALIENS where the marines basically only talk to either Ripley or Hicks. Maybe Gorman. That would reduce a lot of their personalities automatically.

That's what happens with Rogue One.

So it really comes down to whether the sketches the Actors are charged with bringing to life are good enough for you on first go. And if they aren't - you're probably going to always feel the film is lacking. Which is absolutely valid - and in a way that doesn't tend to bring in this weird undercurrent of general condescension/distaste towards both fans/fandom, and towards the percieved low-level-intelligence of general audiences and their inability to understand genre entertainment—both of which are elements I feel have become very stong hooks for RLM viewers, to try and tie this sidetrack back to the thread's original intent.

well said Bobby. nice to hear the third act holds up on rewatches, but yeah, I'm kinda dreading having to sit through those first two acts again...

 

[Lamel]

(shrug)

Dunno what to tell you man. If you didn't think Felicity Jones wasn't trying to essay an actual human being when she's listening to Mads Mikkelsen's transmission, or that her and Diego Luna weren't going for something that resembled honest emotion as he's gaslighting her post-Eadu, then I mean... I dunno how to convince you otherwise, or that it'd be worth the attempt. It doesn't work for you that thoroughly, it's just a loss at that point. Eh.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel.

I left the theater thinking "I really liked those characters, I felt their pain, and I'm bummed they're dead". I didn't expect there to be so much criticism regarding them.

 

[KorrZ]

That video was spot on. Pretty much exactly sums up why I left Rogue One feeling incredibly disappointed even while loving the action scenes.

 

[Altairre]

(shrug)

Dunno what to tell you man. If you didn't think Felicity Jones wasn't trying to essay an actual human being when she's listening to Mads Mikkelsen's transmission, or that her and Diego Luna weren't going for something that resembled honest emotion as he's gaslighting her post-Eadu, then I mean... I dunno how to convince you otherwise, or that it'd be worth the attempt. It doesn't work for you that thoroughly, it's just a loss at that point. Eh.

Yup, the scene with the transmission was where I turned on Jyn's character and by extension Felicity Jones' portrayal from "I don't know about this" to "You go girl, I'm totally with you". It just hit home in kind of a personal way so that's probably part of it.

I also liked Cassian's arc quite a bit, it's mostly the pilot that I felt was fairly underwhelming and didn't really add much to the movie.

 

[Monocle]

He made a good point about how it's much more effective to watch characters we care about in action scenes rather than people we're not invested in. I liked his edit of the ANH rescue scene to drive that home. Very well done.

However, I think it's totally unreasonable to expect RO to explain things like the Force. Movies that exist as part of a well established mythology should be relieved the burden of broad exposition. Return of the King didn't need to explain what the Ring was. Civil War didn't need to explain what a mutant metahuman was. The price of admission to these later entries is a bit of background knowledge.

 

[firehawk12]

He made a good point about how it's much more effective to watch characters we care about in action scenes rather than people we're not invested in. I liked his edit of the ANH rescue scene to drive that home. Very well done.

However, I think it's totally unreasonable to expect RO to explain things like the Force. Movies that exist as part of a well established mythology should be relieved the burden of broad exposition. Return of the King didn't need to explain what the Ring was. Civil War didn't need to explain what a mutant metahuman was. The price of admission to these later entries is a bit of background knowledge.

You have fans who still don't know why the elite shock troopers kept missing Donnie Yen near the end of the movie. Was it the Force that protected him or did they just go blind for a few seconds? If you don't even know what the Force is, you have no idea why he has god mode at that point in the movie.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I didn't hate the characters as much as the RLM guys. I liked pretty much everybody in the film except for Jyn and Cassian who I felt we're a bit bland.

I really liked K2SO. Sort of felt like a less murderous version of HK-47.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Here's my weird go against the grain anecdotal evidence:

My dad only watched the first Star Wars movie a long time ago, and barely remembers any of the details except the cantina and lightsabers and the trench run and the main characters existing. He hates most science fiction and action movies. He came away from The Force Awakens kind of like, "okay." He came away from Rogue One liking it and thought it was a better movie.


(I'm also one of these people who thought the main cast were all endearing and their motivations were perfectly logical and clear, which makes 90% of the talk about the movie baffling)

 

[EatinOlives]

Didn't find any issues with the main cast. Movie's run-time is already 2+ hours, did people really expect super in-depth backstories from each of the characters on top of everything else that happened?

 

[firehawk12]

Didn't find any issues with the main cast. Movie's run-time is already 2+ hours, did people really expect super in-depth backstories from each of the characters on top of everything else that happened?

You could cut a lot of the first act and have a movie that gives more depth to Jyn. A little girl watches the empire kill her mother and kidnap her father, then she joins the rebellion. You didn't need Forest Whitaker on not-Tattooine and the prison transport rescue sequence. There's a lot of unnecessary characters and storytelling in the first part of the movie that could have been made to explain why you should care that this girl loses her father other than it's supposed to be universally sad when you watch your parents die.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You could cut a lot of the first act and have a movie that gives more depth to Jyn. A little girl watches the empire kill her mother and kidnap her father, then she joins the rebellion.

If her character as shown in the trailer footage is any indication - they tried it that way initially and changed it in post via the reshoots.

So for whatever reason, that approach apparently didn't work.

 

[firehawk12]

If her character as shown in the trailer footage is any indication - they tried it that way initially and changed it in post via the reshoots.

So for whatever reason, that approach apparently didn't work.

Maybe they thought it was too similar to the Cassian guy's backstory, since he basically says something about losing everything when he was 6.

But the flip side is that we get no motivation for her character at all other than your standard "Daddy issues" trope that even video games have turned into a cliche at this point.

 

[Psychoward]

I don't know if I should watch this as I don't like watching plinkett reviews of movies I like because he tears them apart lol

 

[bishopcruz]

I like RLM and think they are completely off the marks with Rogue One and TFA. Arguing that most of the stuff isn't contextualized yet clapping like monkeys about TFA when basically nothing gets contextualized in it either is completely idiotic.

They don't have to like Rogue One, and I agree with the sentiment that the characters are on the weak side because they needed more time to be fleshed out. But giving TFA full marks for characters is bonkers. TFA's characters were nonsensical flat cardbox cutouts. They offer zero depth. And emotionally all their scenes fell flat on their faces to me since they try to follow the formular of A New Hope too closely.

I would have understood the hate for Rogue One if RLM hated TFA equally as much. But this way around is just weird.

Yeah, this is what gets me a lot. I understand people saying that the Rogue One characters weren't fleshed out enough. I wish they'd been fleshed out a bit more, specifically Jyn, who needed it the most. What I don't get is those who say that TFA had brilliant characters. Of the four main new characters all of them were pretty bleh. The actors were charismatic, and that made them fun to watch, but their actions and motivations all lacked verisimilitude. With exception, (Jyn's hope speech) I never felt that the characters we were given in Rogue One acted in an unrealistic manner for their established character. I can't say the same for TFA.

 

[broncobuster]

I agree with much of what he says with indifference instead of resentment. If it had to draw comparisons for how I felt about Rogue One, it's one part the CGI trailers for The Old Republic and one part 300. An illogical comparison and I can't express precisely why those two things came to mind. But I'm ok with an ok Star Wars movie.

 

[Gobias]

Characters and tone are what make a good Star Wars movie for me. TFA was great because it was a fun and energetic space adventure, regardless if the overall structure was very similar to ANH. Bland characters and tone are the main reasons the prequels are so bad. Rogue One was obviously going for a different tone, which is fine, but the ending fell flat because the characters fell flat. They were boring. Plus, lame callbacks to previous Star Wars lines go against the tone they were going for. If they really want to take the spin offs in a completley different direction they should be set far away from the main saga.

 

[Sanjuro]

Here's my weird go against the grain anecdotal evidence:

My dad only watched the first Star Wars movie a long time ago, and barely remembers any of the details except the cantina and lightsabers and the trench run and the main characters existing. He hates most science fiction and action movies. He came away from The Force Awakens kind of like, "okay." He came away from Rogue One liking it and thought it was a better movie.


(I'm also one of these people who thought the main cast were all endearing and their motivations were perfectly logical and clear, which makes 90% of the talk about the movie baffling)

That makes sense. For him there was no attachment to anyone, no outside narrative to learn, but he knows who Vader is.

 

[kyser73]

Here's my weird go against the grain anecdotal evidence:

My dad only watched the first Star Wars movie a long time ago, and barely remembers any of the details except the cantina and lightsabers and the trench run and the main characters existing. He hates most science fiction and action movies. He came away from The Force Awakens kind of like, "okay." He came away from Rogue One liking it and thought it was a better movie.


(I'm also one of these people who thought the main cast were all endearing and their motivations were perfectly logical and clear, which makes 90% of the talk about the movie baffling)

Pretty much this for me too.

 

[BigDug13]

Their Half in the Bag ripped this movie apart so I'm sure this is no better.

 

[bishopcruz]

Pretty much this for me too.

Me as well. I kinda liked that all of the main cast had pretty much lost everything. Jyn lost her first family, then her second. Cassian has been fighting since he was 6, and you can tell he's lost a lot. Chirrut and Baze are once proud guardians of a Temple no one cares about, reduced to running simple cons on people on Jedha. Bodhi risked everything to stop the empire from destroying his home, and failed. I found that all of them coming together worked for me. They weren't the usual heroes, and no one would remember them when they died, but it didn't matter. I also think Imwe's jokes were better than any of Finn's.

 

[TAJ]

I don't have the clearest memory of this thing, but what made Cassian think that all of the weapons engineers would just happen to be standing around outside during a rainstorm?

 

[kyser73]

Me as well. I kinda liked that all of the main cast had pretty much lost everything. Jyn lost her first family, then her second. Cassian has been fighting since he was 6, and you can tell he's lost a lot. Chirrut and Baze are once proud guardians of a Temple no one cares about, reduced to running simple cons on people on Jedha. Bodhi risked everything to stop the empire from destroying his home, and failed. I found that all of them coming together worked for me. They weren't the usual heroes, and no one would remember them when they died, but it didn't matter. I also think Imwe's jokes were better than any of Finn's.

K2SO had the best deadpan lines, Vader ruled it with

Spoiler

'Be careful not to choke on your aspirations.'

tho.