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[TakeItSlowDude]

The critical press has become a tribalistic moral community. There is very little give or take with them. Dissenting opinions are dismissed as being formed from ignorance or a privileged point of view. Counter arguments are attacked on semantic grounds ("weasel words"), not on substance. Criticizing any group or anyone that is scared is forbidden (in this case the disadvantage/oppressed/minorities). Benign characterizations are presented as racist or sexist. An extreme lack of skepticism in the theories they posit is exhibited (power fantasies, privilege, misogyny, media influence). While I cannot write off everything they say, there still is an extreme imbalance of self righteous harangue to actual criticism.

This video has to do with the social sciences, though many parallels can be drawn:
http://vimeo.com/19822295

 

[Cyrano]

The critical press has become a tribalistic moral community. There is very little give or take with them. Dissenting opinions are dismissed as being formed from ignorance or a privileged point of view. Counter arguments are attacked on semantic grounds ("weasel words"), not on substance. Criticizing any group or anyone that is scared is forbidden (in this case the disadvantage/oppressed/minorities). Benign characterizations are presented as racist or sexist. An extreme lack of skepticism in the theories they posit is exhibited (power fantasies, privilege, misogyny, media influence). While I cannot write off everything they say, there still is an extreme imbalance of self righteous harangue to actual criticism.

This video has to do with the social sciences, though many parallels can be drawn:
http://vimeo.com/19822295

Are you talking about videogame criticism specifically or criticism generally?

 

[TakeItSlowDude]

Are you talking about videogame criticism specifically or criticism generally?

I would say the current critical scene in videogame criticism (Leigh Alexander, Kill Screen Daily, Gamasutra, ect) is afflicted by what I have posted. Swapping out particulars in my post, I do see the same pattern in other video game communities (4chan/v/, RPGCodex, ect). Though I do feel it is fair to have higher expectations of the critical press than of random forum posters.

I think what I have posted can be extended to other areas of criticisms and inquiry, though that is another discussion.

 

[Cyrano]

I would say the current critical scene in videogame criticism (Leigh Alexander, Kill Screen Daily, Gamasutra, ect) is afflicted by what I have posted. Swapping out particulars in my post, I do see the same pattern in other video game communities (4chan/v/, RPGCodex, ect). Though I do feel it is fair to have higher expectations of the critical press than of random forum posters.

I think what I have posted can be extended to other areas of criticisms and inquiry, though that is another discussion.

I wouldn't actually call those sites in particular indicative of videogame criticism. On the contrary, I would say they are very much part of the popular zeitgeist.

 

[unbias]

The critical press has become a tribalistic moral community. There is very little give or take with them. Dissenting opinions are dismissed as being formed from ignorance or a privileged point of view. Counter arguments are attacked on semantic grounds ("weasel words"), not on substance. Criticizing any group or anyone that is scared is forbidden (in this case the disadvantage/oppressed/minorities). Benign characterizations are presented as racist or sexist. An extreme lack of skepticism in the theories they posit is exhibited (power fantasies, privilege, misogyny, media influence). While I cannot write off everything they say, there still is an extreme imbalance of self righteous harangue to actual criticism.

This video has to do with the social sciences, though many parallels can be drawn:
http://vimeo.com/19822295

Eh, I think most of that has to do with social media and the internet, in general, as to why groups and more specifically the media, has become so tribalistic. It is very easy to find an echo chamber filled with like minded believers who support, empower, and vindicate a point of view where a certain PoV or philosophy becomes the reality of fact instead of subjectiveness(not a word, I know). It is very easy to get lost in just about any group(ironically even groups about how people have become so tribalistic and other ironic meta-type groups). That is why earlier in my topic I said the most dangerous thing is the sheer revulsion of people disagreeing and having near no tolerance for dissenting opinion.

Conversionary tactics that are essentially proselytizing fosters a form of intolerance and bigotry(I dont like throwing this word around, because anymore it has lost its real meaning, it is now used as a simple insult it ignore points) of points of view. You see it in colleges more then anything anymore, where people seem to only hangout with people of like minded world views more so then compatibility of personalities, and while these people are not the norm, they are a growing number, specifically on the internet. Which like I said to someone else earlier, makes me wonder how "real"(as in if their written words match the reality of how they are in real life) 99% of the people on the internet are.

 

[Red Mage]

Actually, throw Agrias into the second camp since IIRC she's gay.

I like her. Too bad she just stopped being important all of a sudden (not even a talking scene!) at the latter half of the game.

I don't think she's gay. Her friends/fellow knights Alicia and Lavian are the ones who tell Mustadio her birthday. If she was not even interested in men, I'm pretty sure they'd have told him to not bother.

What makes you think Agrias is gay?

Shooting down Mustadio hardly counts, because Mustadio is ew.

He's definitely not as suave as his ancestor, Balthier. = P

 

[FStop7]

The exaggerated outrage and blatant lies about the God of War trophy spearheaded by Adam Sessler were utterly shameful.

Not to mention that episodes like that make it easier for those who don't want to hear about it to be dismissive of issues that actually matter.

To be fair, Penny Arcade is pretty awful (for various reasons) and should be defeated.

Really? I've also been pretty disgusted by PA's collective attitude over the past couple of years, but did you see Mike K's mea culpa? After something like that he and PA deserve the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to back up those words with actions. Based on some of the responses in the GAF thread about his apology that for some it's more about wanting to see more "harm" inflicted upon Mike, no matter what.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

RE: Dragon's Crown, there's plenty in the game that is pure pandering cheesecake. There's really no defending the prone nun with legs spread apart and somehow displaying cameltoe in full chainmail who moans when you click on her. It doesn't bother me though, I know for a fact it doesn't bother all women, and it probably doesn't bother a lot of people who are more sensitive about such things, because it's pretty camp. Still, let's not pretend it exists for more than cheesy titillation.

Functionally though, the game itself involves highly sexualized female main characters who have their own clear agency, and honestly considering the general power fantasy of the thing, the characters might be thought to drift closer to a Mrs. Male Character than any more offensive trope.

 

[Hawkian]

And yet, I hear little talk about it now outside of it being a sort of "get out of jail free" card, and that's not even PA's opponents burying talk of it. I don't even see much promotion of the charity itself from PA themselves, which makes it feel obsolete, as if its only existence IS a "get out of jail free card".

I don't like this... not one bit.

I have plenty of criticism for Gabe as a bully and a bit of a tactless oaf, but I'm talking completely independent of him, the comic's worth or personal preference... here you are essentially (and possibly inadvertently) demonizing the charity itself because you "hear little talk about it." What you'll want to do is just read up on it a little bit. :-/ As of November 2013 it's still a pretty remarkable and remarkably good charity, having just expanded to serve children in facilities for domestic violence victims. 2013 collections outpaced 2012's by over 2 million dollars.

So... I don't know. I didn't like the "we didn't defeat the things" bit in your piece either, but this response certainly ensured that you have not made an ally of me today.

To be fair, Penny Arcade is pretty awful (for various reasons) and should be defeated.

Defeated. You should know better, Kark.

The initial response (about them being "defeated" ) I made was a tongue-in-cheek jab at PA's overall comic quality. I'm honestly not even sure what being "defeated" entails, and I think it sounds a bit absurd.

Oh okay. Carry on with your bad self.

 

[TakeItSlowDude]

I wouldn't actually call those sites in particular indicative of videogame criticism. On the contrary, I would say they are very much part of the popular zeitgeist.

We are talking about socially aware games criticism and the critical scene, not mainstream reviews. Though the majority of socially aware criticism in the mainstream is from a socially progressive viewpoint.

Those sites are a part of a larger gaming Zeitgeist? Maybe, but that does not excuse sloppy and parochial criticism.

 

[Cyrano]

We are talking about socially aware games criticism and the critical scene, not mainstream reviews. Though the majority of socially aware criticism in the mainstream is from a socially progressive viewpoint.

Those sites are a part of a larger gaming Zeitgeist? Maybe, but that does not excuse sloppy and parochial criticism.

I would say that mainstream videogame criticism comes from a well-intentioned but utterly ineffectual progressivism. Worse, these criticisms are rarely laid at the feet of the developers and directors of the projects, who would be most able to promote progress.

 

[spekkeh]

What are you researching on, if I may ask? There's a game design chair at my university too, they mostly work on interface design; I'd like to know what other universities do in that regard.

(Serious) game design from a (cognitive) psychological standpoint mostly. Randomized controlled trials where I vary bits in the game design and try to discern principles or design guidelines of what works and what doesn't. Also interface design. Would you like to tell me which university? Maybe I know them (probably not though the field is pretty fractured). PM is fine too .

 

[SolidSnakex]

Not to mention that episodes like that make it easier for those who don't want to hear about it to be dismissive of issues that actually matter.

This is an important point. It's the same reason that the Dragon's Crown debate had so much venom in it. What kicked it all off was Jason Schreier writing a comment for the Sorceress trailer about how game companies should stop hiring 13 year olds (in reference to Kamitani). People implying the age of those that draw or enjoy certain art or content also seems to be strangely common in these discussions (you see it pop up in reviews, comments, and articles in general on the subject), which leads to a lot of backlash.

 

[FStop7]

This is an important point. It's the same reason that the Dragon's Crown debate had so much venom in it. What kicked it all off was Jason Schreier writing a comment for the Sorceress trailer about how game companies should stop hiring 13 year olds (in reference to Kamitani). People implying the age of those that draw or enjoy certain art or content also seems to be strangely common in these discussions (you see it pop up in reviews, comments, and articles in general on the subject), which leads to a lot of backlash.

The Dragon's Crown faux outrage was an insane over reaction. And it distracts from and obfuscates things of actual importance, like female game devs receiving death threats for daring to voice contrary opinions.

 

[ixix]

I forgot where but I could have sworn I read somewhere that she's not straight.

Hmmmm.

Well, it matters not. I like her all the same

Her narrative arc pretty much revolves entirely around her devotion to the princess, but I never noticed any real romantic insinuations in their relationship. It's not even really all that different in its overall gist from Steiner's plot arc in FF9, provided you ignore the fact that Steiner is a lame-o and Agrias is amazeballs.

The only non-platonic scene with her in the game is the War of the Lions segment with Mustadio giving her a birthday present, but Agrias pretty decisively turns that scene platonic at the first opportunity.

Stay losing, Mustadio.

He's definitely not as suave as his ancestor, Balthier. = P

Musty's no leading man, that's for damn sure.

RE: Dragon's Crown, there's plenty in the game that is pure pandering cheesecake. There's really no defending the prone nun with legs spread apart and somehow displaying cameltoe in full chainmail who moans when you click on her. It doesn't bother me though, I know for a fact it doesn't bother all women, and it probably doesn't bother a lot of people who are more sensitive about such things, because it's pretty camp. Still, let's not pretend it exists for more than cheesy titillation.

Functionally though, the game itself involves highly sexualized female main characters who have their own clear agency, and honestly considering the general power fantasy of the thing, the characters might be thought to drift closer to a Mrs. Male Character than any more offensive trope.

What tends to get unfortunately lost in these discussions is that the nun (and the sorceress, and the nymph, and Dragon's Crown in general) doesn't require defense unless, of course, you pull a Kotaku and assert that video game content is a causative agent of harm, which is what that whole controversy boiled down to in the end.

Well, there was also the undercurrent of abject contempt for the audience that is tragically common in the enthusiast press, along with the author's attempts to claim that it was raining when he was obviously pissing on our leg. Kinda small potatoes in comparison to the allegations of harm, though, funny as they were.

 

[partyphone]

The Dragon's Crown faux outrage was an insane over reaction. And it distracts from and obfuscates things of actual importance, like female game devs receiving death threats for daring to voice contrary opinions.

So the portrayal of women in popular culture isn't actually important?

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

 

[Bailers]

unless, of course, you pull a Kotaku and assert that video game content is a causative agent of harm, which is what that whole controversy boiled down to in the end.

It's about time we starting discussing if Kotaku is a bigger causative agent of harm than video games.

 

[jman2050]

So the portrayal of women in popular culture isn't actually important?

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

It's all a giant slap fight between children of various types.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

So the portrayal of women in popular culture isn't actually important?

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

The best way to answer over reactions is with over reactions. ?

 

[SolidSnakex]

So the portrayal of women in popular culture isn't actually important?

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

And there we go.

 

[Karkador]

The Dragon's Crown faux outrage was an insane over reaction. And it distracts from and obfuscates things of actual importance, like female game devs receiving death threats for daring to voice contrary opinions.

insane over reaction on who's part? because the thing that always gets me about these 'internet social justice' discussions is that the people bringing up the topics are blamed for being "outraged", when the actual outrage and overreaction is often from people who are completely opposed to talking about this and bent on dismissing it.

 

[ixix]

So the portrayal of women in popular culture isn't actually important?

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

No, not really. Vigorous defense of expression is a necessary response to baseless allegations of harm in any society which purports to value it. I'd rather not have the video game community mute its reaction to someone saying that a video game maker is a 13 year-old who is hurting women. That's not the sort of thing that should be allowed to slide without demanding to see some receipts.

Also love your choice of blanket insult, considering the content of the post immediately preceding the one you quoted. Intentional or not, it gave me a laugh.

 

[Metrotab]

So the portrayal of women in popular culture isn't actually important?

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

Surprise surprise, people will defend an artistic vision if they get called perverted, immature and told to 'grow up' for enjoying it.

insane over reaction on who's part? because the thing that always gets me about these 'internet social justice' discussions is that the people bringing up the topics are blamed for being "outraged", when the actual outrage and overreaction is often from people who are completely opposed to talking about this and bent on dismissing it.

Considering Dragon's Crown a 'problem' needing of 'fixing' is an overreaction. It's just art design, and damn good art design too.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

What tends to get unfortunately lost in these discussions is that the nun (and the sorceress, and the nymph, and Dragon's Crown in general) doesn't require defense unless, of course, you pull a Kotaku and assert that video game content is a causative agent of harm, which is what that whole controversy boiled down to in the end.

Well, there was also the undercurrent of abject contempt for the audience that is tragically common in the enthusiast press, along with the author's attempts to claim that it was raining when he was obviously pissing on our leg. Kinda small potatoes in comparison to the allegations of harm, though, funny as they were.

I think people who are sensitive to these sorts of things should feel free to criticize whatever and should attempt to justify their distaste for it. Being turned off in general by something on some visceral level is different than having it offend you in specific ways because of specific context, and I think the latter is a far better platform to start discussion than the former. And of course, you'd think anything which doesn't require defense should therefor be easy to defend, and personally I thought DC's art style and context at least as far as the main characters are concerned was, with the exceptions I've already mentioned.

Maybe I'm overreaching here, but I feel any discussion about games shouldn't stop short of including the gameplay itself, and it's not enough to say that a game is thematically offensive without discussing the game's systems and the player's agency. Dragon's Crown in general I think justifies its own existence through its quality as a game even if its presentation could be seen as offensive, and the sexualized main characters are treated with respect in context and are by definition the player's proxy.

Whether games themselves do real harm in society is beyond my scope to discuss as I'm no sociologist and can only fall back on my own experience. To me, they are entertainment, and, as immersive as entertainment can be, I have never once come close to confusing entertainment and reality. But I think when an individual has an issue with a specific item and wants to discuss it, encouraging them to feel bad for feeling bad about something rather than trying to understand what it is that's bothering them probably is harmful. I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting, I'm just thinking out loud here.

 

[CapNBritain]

I think that the initial Dragon's Crown complaint was not that it would turn all male players into misogynists, but that it was making videogames seem less inclusive to women. I was really excited to play a co-op brawler with my girlfriend, but once we actually started playing I got a lot of "so this is why you like these games" looks. It was all in a joking manner, but even I was taken aback by some of the things in that game. I never even thought about it until I had to sit down and go through it with a woman. I can definitely see a lot women not wanting to give videogames a chance when they see things like this.

On the other hand, I don't want to blanket-sanitize videogames. I'm glad that Dragon's Crown exists (although I wish they had streamlined it to be more arcade-friendly, as playing co-op turns into a boring slog of menus). I remember a Penny Arcade post that said that the way to combat bad art (not that Dragon's Crown is bad art) is never with LESS, but with MORE. Of course, I know that it's not as easy or simple as that, but there has to be a balance between not limiting what can be created and creating a welcoming environment for all tastes.

 

[ixix]

I think people who are sensitive to these sorts of things should feel free to criticize whatever and should attempt to justify their distaste for it. Being turned off in general by something on some visceral level is different than having it offend you in specific ways because of specific context, and I think the latter is a far better platform to start discussion than the former. And of course, you'd think anything which doesn't require defense should therefor be easy to defend, and personally I thought DC's art style and context at least as far as the main characters are concerned was, with the exceptions I've already mentioned.

Maybe I'm overreaching here, but I feel any discussion about games shouldn't stop short of including the gameplay itself, and it's not enough to say that a game is thematically offensive without discussing the game's systems and the player's agency. Dragon's Crown in general I think justifies its own existence through its quality as a game even if its presentation could be seen as offensive, and the sexualized main characters are treated with respect in context and are by definition the player's proxy.

Whether games themselves do real harm in society is beyond my scope to discuss as I'm no sociologist and can only fall back on my own experience. To me, they are entertainment, and, as immersive as entertainment can be, I have never once come close to confusing entertainment and reality. But I think when an individual has an issue with a specific item and wants to discuss it, encouraging them to feel bad for feeling bad about something rather than trying to understand what it is that's bothering them probably is harmful. I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting, I'm just thinking out loud here.

I think your final paragraph indirectly cuts to the heart of what went so disastrously wrong with the discussion surrounding Kotaku's crusade against Dragon's Crown. Kotaku's original commentary on the game was just another in a long line of dumb accusations of video games being a pernicious, harmful societal ill paired with the old cliched canard of people who make or consume video games being in a state of arrested development. It was vacuous, and it was hardly a new thing in terms of criticism of video games (or, for that matter, any new medium).

But somehow, some way, it got turned into a springboard for talking about emergent systems of depictions in media and feminist theory in general when the appropriate response was basically "So Kotaku is still part of Gawker, huh? Noted." And as a springboard for those issues it served its purpose poorly indeed. It's really hard in that context to view an attempt to divert the discussion to systemic media portrayals as being anything other than an attempt to dissemble in defense of a game journalist channeling his inner Joe Lieberman, doubly so if you're not already familiar with the underlying concept of self-perpetuating emergent social systems (and I think it's safe to say that the bulk of people who were talking about Dragon's Crown were probably not particularly well-acquainted with this subject, and I am by no means excluding its instigator from this appraisal).

Didn't help any on GAF that the article's original author kept showing up to ratchet the crazy up a couple notches (calling Dragon's Crown a lolicon fantasy then saying that it's absurd for people to expect him to know what "lolicon" means before he starts saying it and that anybody who points out that he clearly hasn't got the faintest idea what he's talking about is probably a lolicon too quod erat demonstrandum was probably my favorite part, but it was pretty toxic to any actual discussion in spite of being completely, gloriously, hilariously insane).

It was a bad situation from stem to stern, and that there are still people trying to rationalize it or make it about something other than Kotaku's not-at-all-subtle statements is disheartening. Worse still, we just witnessed the debacle of PAX instituting a feminist, LGBT-friendly initiative only to immediately have it compared to Jim Crow and the Nazis by people who claim to be progressives. Shows just how little progress has been made in our ability to talk about these things. If anything, it shows we're sliding backwards.

Ghastly situation we're in, really. I think I've just gone and made myself depressed, and here right after I'd resolved to maybe try and do that a bit less often in 2014.

 

[Curufinwe]

I think that the initial Dragon's Crown complaint was not that it would turn all male players into misogynists, but that it was making videogames seem less inclusive to women. I was really excited to play a co-op brawler with my girlfriend, but once we actually started playing I got a lot of "so this is why you like these games" looks. It was all in a joking manner, but even I was taken aback by some of the things in that game. I never even thought about it until I had to sit down and go through it with a woman. I can definitely see a lot women not wanting to give videogames a chance when they see things like this.

Someone being turned off of all videogames by one game with art they find distasteful is a ludicrous as someone being turned off of all movies or all books by one of the millions out there with far more extreme and upsetting imagery than is contained in Dragon's Crown.

 

[Tex117]

I think the real REAL concern about the lack of women in the game developers houses. This is where the social equality should be coming in and is important.

 

[LaserHawk]

I think that the initial Dragon's Crown complaint was not that it would turn all male players into misogynists, but that it was making videogames seem less inclusive to women. I was really excited to play a co-op brawler with my girlfriend, but once we actually started playing I got a lot of "so this is why you like these games" looks. It was all in a joking manner, but even I was taken aback by some of the things in that game. I never even thought about it until I had to sit down and go through it with a woman. I can definitely see a lot women not wanting to give videogames a chance when they see things like this.

One of the things that really bugged me about Jason Shreier's response to Dragon's Crown was the very idea that the existence of one game could keep people away from ALL games. It takes a pretty ignorant person to look at Dragon's Crown and assume all games are just like it. And you don't see the same in other industries... At least, I've never heard of women deciding to not enter the film industry based on one sexist movie they saw.

I'd like to think that a game like Dragon's Crown isn't some sort deterrent, but rather, incentive. It's a big reason for more women to be IN the videogame industry, not avoiding it.... so long as people choose to see it that way.

I realize the root of the problem is the amount of sexualization in games, with Dragon's Crown being just one example, but are there as many examples matching it as we tend to believe? I guess it depends on where you look. But to me, the games industry is painted more by guns and explosions than sex and nudity.

 

[zeldablue]

Someone being turned off of all videogames by one game with art they find distasteful is a ludicrous as someone being turned off of all movies or all books by one of the millions out there with far more extreme and upsetting imagery than is contained in Dragon's Crown.

Games haven't grown to that level of pedigree and are still stigmatized as toys for kids.

An outstanding amount of older people and women refuse to play games for that reason. :|

Im all for social equality. Im also not sure that gaming is the platform in which to do it.

Games themselves are a product. Products are marketed to their audience.

I don't hear many "Hey! There aren't enough women GI Joes."

Its a producted marketed in a way that will make game developers the most money.

Now, there is a real REAL concern about the lack of women in the game developers houses. This is where the social equality should be coming in and is important.

The product? Who cares.

Who develops them and markets them, I care alot.

You want more girls to help develop stuff that should never be marketed towards girls? How does that make sense?

 

[unbias]

Games haven't grown to that level of pedigree and are still stigmatized as toys for kids.

In certain circles maybe. I have not found this generalization to be accurate anymore, at all.

 

[zeldablue]

In certain circles maybe. I have not found this generalization to be accurate anymore, at all.

How often do you ask your mom to play videogames? How often have you asked a grown women to play an M rated game with you?

Playstation captured the 20 year old male audience and made it mainstream. Before that, it was marketed to children like toys.

Games have purposefully ignored the older crowd and women. Until the Wii quickly came and gone...

If you don't introduce someone to gaming well, I think there's a good chance you'll completely turn then away from that media.

 

[unbias]

How often do you ask your mom to play videogames? How often have you asked a grown women to play an M rated game with you?

Playstation captured the 20 year old male audience and made it mainstream. Before that, it was marketed to children like toys.

Games have purposefully ignored the older crowd and women. Until the Wii quickly came and gone...

If you don't introduce someone to gaming well, I think there's a good chance you'll completely turn then away from that media.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. In my college(Michigan Tech) a lot of women played video games. Sure alot of them were flash or facebook games, but I personally played Mario Kart with quite a lot of women. Now, after college most of my friends play video games, including women(admittedly to a lesser extent). As for my mom? She plays facebook games a lot(typically the ones where you have to find objects hidden in pictures and word play games).

Also, another good example is MMO's. I played Tera for about 4 months and the amount of women playing that game was surprisingly high, and all of them( in my guild at least) played the with the most and like the most risque clothing in the game. From my experience the only games that really have a tendency of turning away women is excessive violence and extreme competition. Hell my mom's(all 58+) sisters even play facebook games.

As for M rated games, I have a couple female friends that I regularly play ME3 multiplayer with...

 

[spandexmonkey]

Also, another good example is MMO's. I played Tera for about 4 months and the amount of women playing that game was surprisingly high, and all of them( in my guild at least) played the most and like the most risque clothing in the game. From my experience the only games that really have a tendency of turning away women is excessive violence and extreme competition. Hell my mom's(all 58+) sisters even play facebook games.

My personal experiences have been pretty similar. Sexy outfits were treated with indifference or enjoyment, but high testosterone pvp (WoW arenas or CoD) was almost universally met with hostility (my wife is the oddball who revels in it). No comments really on violence, the ladies I know who hate shooters love Diablo and Path of Exile. Co-op and socializing seem to be the biggest draw for female gamers in my circle of friends and family.

 

[FStop7]

Considering Dragon's Crown a 'problem' needing of 'fixing' is an overreaction. It's just art design, and damn good art design too.

We'd see some serious pearl clutching if anyone who said that were exposed to say a Frank Frazetta or Boris Vallejo painting. Or *gasp* Julie Bell's work.

 

[CapNBritain]

Someone being turned off of all videogames by one game with art they find distasteful is a ludicrous as someone being turned off of all movies or all books by one of the millions out there with far more extreme and upsetting imagery than is contained in Dragon's Crown.

When movies first came about in the early 20th century, I bet lots of women would have been turned off to the genre if the first movie they saw was softcore pornography. Videogames do not have the mainstream appeal, cultural acceptance, and depth of experiences that movies have spent 100 years building up to. Many see them as toys.

And yes, this is discounting Candy Crush and Wii Fit. Some people mention them in the same breath as Dragon's Crown or The Last of Us, but to many people, especially those not well-versed in videogames, they are entirely different things.

Also, as an aside, my girlfriend was once forced to watch The Ring. She now refuses to watch any movie or television show that contains anything creepy, supernatural, or bloody. Horror is the bloody mistress I must sneak in on the side.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I have looked them up immensely. Despite you mentioning the sorceress, I never once did nor implied her character.

The lack of controversy in Japan over the sorceress is mostly attributed to the differing views of sexuality in Japan compared to the US. Japan does not have our puritan/Christian historic values which are core to anti-sex feminism.

Er...?

Further, sex-positive feminism - or as it's nicknamed pro-sex feminism - and it's rival ideology anti-sex feminism is very well known - both the terms and ideas. You putting them in quotations like you can't take it seriously or dismiss the wording shows a lack of knowledge on your part of this discussion and I'd suggest you try not being so damned passive-aggressive.

Now if I said something wrong, could you correct me? Please do.

lol, what a load of garbage. "Anti-sex feminism" has nothing to do with criticism of Dragon's Crown. In fact, "anti-sex feminism" is just a strawman caricature of critical feminists made by defensive idiots who want to portray the critics as sex-hating prudes. We see it all the time.
Sure, there's such a thing as anti-porn feminists, a small fringe group, but once again this has nothing to do with the Dragon's Crown debate. It's just plain dishonest to lump critics of Dragon's Crown into that group, it's pure well-poisoning and strawmanning.

And the reaction to the criticism was the thing that was, far and away, the biggest over reaction. Bunch of little children mad that someone said something mean about their toy.

Can't really disagree with any of that. Just look at the sheer overreaction to the Polygon review. The reviewer dared mention she found the character art objectionable, and the Internet exploded at the "shrill feminazi", alleging that she wants to censor games, that she wants to push an agenda, etc. All that for criticizing the art style. I mean it's my GotY 2013 and I have no problem with that review because I'm not a defensive nutcase. People who enjoy Dragon's Crown are not manchildren, but those who overreacted to that review sure as hell are.

And you don't see the same in other industries... At least, I've never heard of women deciding to not enter the film industry based on one sexist movie they saw.

Because the movie industry has tons of movies that target women as an audience. The movie industry is not seen as a boys club. They are not remotely comparable in that regard. Seriously, what a silly comparison.

 

[Nightstick11]

Asides from constant fellating of the western AAA publishers, I find the self-righteous, sanctimonious "journalists" to be another annoying wrinkle in modern game journalism. They harp on and on about non-issues that are molehills, over-react to a lot of things vigilantly, and fling ad-hominems and other insults to those who disagree with their extremely narrowed world-views.

It appears to me they push for a vast censorship of the images we gamers view and words we use.

I wish the media would move away from those topics and especially those tones.

 

[zeldablue]

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. In my college(Michigan Tech) a lot of women played video games. Sure alot of them were flash or facebook games, but I personally played Mario Kart with quite a lot of women. Now, after college most of my friends play video games, including women(admittedly to a lesser extent). As for my mom? She plays facebook games a lot(typically the ones where you have to find objects hidden in pictures and word play games).

Also, another good example is MMO's. I played Tera for about 4 months and the amount of women playing that game was surprisingly high, and all of them( in my guild at least) played the with the most and like the most risque clothing in the game. From my experience the only games that really have a tendency of turning away women is excessive violence and extreme competition. Hell my mom's(all 58+) sisters even play facebook games.

As for M rated games, I have a couple female friends that I regularly play ME3 multiplayer with...

Good. I was genuinely asking the question. I play plenty of games and play with girls too. But...I live in a gaming college. :/

I know as many girls who stigmatize games as I know girls who love games.

Some girls think they're in competition with games and greatly discourage them. but that's a discussion for another day.

 

[Phades]

Not a terrible point. I guess I can't point to any one article that does it, but it certainly permeates their talk on Twitter and in general rounds. But I can see your point very well, and I hemmed and hawwed about that paragraph and its inclusion, not just in terms of validity but also if...well, if it really matters.

Well, it is a catch all sentiment. Basically in almost any conversation online, forums or otherwise, there will almost always be 1 person who makes that sentiment known. If the sentiment is merely trolling others with dissenting views or legitimate belief is probably impossible to tell, but it will range a pretty wide stroke including almost anything from conservative to "homophobic" in range to try and drive erect the proper strawman argument. The implications are all the same though, as it strives to make the perceived "normal" the enemy of the conversation in general, whatever that perceived "normal" happens to be.

For convinence I recall this comment section for various gems for knee jerk backlash, but it is not limited to one side of the table and caused very few of the responses to be productive at all.

This forum seems pretty well moderated, so things of that nature don't last long should they appear. The prevailing attitude and parroting of putting more women in X solves the problem or more items featuring Y issue are automatically good games or ground breaking and makes for easy block list additions since I'm more interested in mechanics of the game anyhow instead of (insert cause here).

 

[EdibleKnife]

When movies first came about in the early 20th century, I bet lots of women would have been turned off to the genre if the first movie they saw was softcore pornography. Videogames do not have the mainstream appeal, cultural acceptance, and depth of experiences that movies have spent 100 years building up to. Many see them as toys.

And yes, this is discounting Candy Crush and Wii Fit. Some people mention them in the same breath as Dragon's Crown or The Last of Us, but to many people, especially those not well-versed in videogames, they are entirely different things.

Also, as an aside, my girlfriend was once forced to watch The Ring. She now refuses to watch any movie or television show that contains anything creepy, supernatural, or bloody. Horror is the bloody mistress I must sneak in on the side.

That's a very strange comparison since we do in fact have the equivalent of softcore porn in video games and Dragon Crown isn't it. It might have rang more true if you said they'd be shocked if they watched Red Sonja or Conan. It's also strange since not only US culture but the culture of visual mediums has changed significantly since the creation of cinema. Showing a woman on screen in only a basque to a 20th century crowd is not going garner the same reaction as showing it to a 21st century crowd.

Also don't know why you brought up the incident with your girlfriend. She was forced to watch it right? And you state that she was just turned off all horror. That isn't really the same as writing off movies as a whole. I'm also sure that several women who might have watched The Ring may have been way into it and continued to happily consume horror.

All in all, I think we should get off of citing Dragon's Crown when referring to trying to craft sweeping changes within video game culture. It's an extremely niche RPG that had its day and made its money and got its praise from people of all genders. To continue holding it up as the one game that could break the image of gaming is bootless since it rarely has the mainstream reach or relevance that the games in the triple A spotlight have. If there is a desperation to get games taken more seriously, we should look to the games that are spending the hundreds of millions to actually get in the public eye.

 

[masterwok]

Wow what a trip reading through this entire topic has been! (upto page 11)

I never thought there was such controversy and in-fighting between people for videogames that didn't have to with the gameplay, type of game, what system it is on, etc.

Forcing political/social arguments stemming from the design of the game? Bleh

Anyway here are some of my thoughts:

1. It's never ok to witch hunt/bully to get a product pulled, changed, or have someone fired just because of different beliefs.

Video games aren't rights or laws, YOU have full control on whether or not to play them.

2. If you don't like how Ms Pacman wears a bow or how Dragon Crown has sexy characters, don't play them. Instead of wasting energy to get games like these removed off the shelves, out of people's minds, support games you do like instead. Better yet, get into game design yourself.

Ok I'll admit that you'll likely have as much success becoming a game designer as you would 'voting with your wallet' to create a difference, the point is that it is impossible to please everyone. Even the AAA games get their share of trolling and ridicule.

3. I've no clue about the idea of 'relating' to a game character. Videogames are just pretend : s

It's somewhat disappointing that topics like these get the most responses. Wouldn't we rather be playing videogames instead?

Yes I realize that goes against myself as well ^_^;

lol

 

[Morrigan Stark]

2. If you don't like how Ms Pacman wears a bow or how Dragon Crown has sexy characters, don't play them. Instead of wasting energy to get games like these removed off the shelves, out of people's minds, support games you do like instead. Better yet, get into game design yourself.

Or, play them, enjoy them, and still criticize them if you want, because it's not the end of the fucking world if a game gets criticized?

It's somewhat disappointing that topics like these get the most responses. Wouldn't we rather be playing videogames instead?

Who wants to bet people spend more time buying on Steam and watching NeoGAF threads about all sorts of games, than they do actually playing the games? I suggest you stop worrying about how others decide to spend their free time (and possibly look in the mirror).

 

[CapNBritain]

That's a very strange comparison since we do in fact have the equivalent of softcore porn in video games and Dragon Crown isn't it. It might have rang more true if you said they'd be shocked if they watched Red Sonja or Conan. It's also strange since not only US culture but the culture of visual mediums has changed significantly since the creation of cinema. Showing a woman on screen in only a basque to a 20th century crowd is not going garner the same reaction as showing it to a 21st century crowd.

Also don't know why you brought up the incident with your girlfriend. She was forced to watch it right? And you state that she was just turned off all horror. That isn't really the same as writing off movies as a whole. I'm also sure that several women who might have watched The Ring may have been way into it and continued to happily consume horror.

All in all, I think we should get off of citing Dragon's Crown when referring to trying to craft sweeping changes within video game culture. It's an extremely niche RPG that had its day and made its money and got its praise from people of all genders. To continue holding it up as the one game that could break the image of gaming is bootless since it rarely has the mainstream reach or relevance that the games in the triple A spotlight have. If there is a desperation to get games taken more seriously, we should look to the games that are spending the hundreds of millions to actually get in the public eye.

I think my point regarding one videogame turning some people, like many women, away from all/most videogames does work, but I guess it needs a little more explanation. When movies were first introduced, it doesn't have to be a porno that could turn away a new viewer, it could be anything seen as "distasteful". And for my girlfriend, watching The Ring turned her off of all horror movies. It didn't turn her off of all movies because she knows there are many types of movies. She is aware of movies because film is a diverse, mature/old, and culturally accepted medium. The same cannot be said of videogames. Seeing Dragon's Crown might not put a videogame newcomer off of playing all games, they might have no qualms about Candy Crush or Just Dance, but it might put them off of every trying a new RPG on the Nintendo SexBox. Until videogames have the same cultural acceptance and depth as other genres, these misunderstandings will continue to occur.

Now, that doesn't mean I want to blame Dragon's Crown. As I have said, I am glad the game was made and can be enjoyed for what it is. But you can't ignore the reality of situations where some newbs might be put off. What Dragon's Crown as a single game can do about that, what responsibility it has towards inclusivity in gaming culture, is debatable.

 

[masterwok]

Or, play them, enjoy them, and still criticize them if you want, because it's not the end of the fucking world if a game gets criticized?

Criticize the game for things related to the game like the gameplay or criticize the graphics for being poor quality, that is fine.

What isn't appropriate for intelligent discussion is act like it is the end of world when a game has sexy artstyles.

BTW I haven't played DC because I can't justify $40 for a download. Maybe its on sale now that it has been out for awhile.

 

[Cyrano]

For convinence I recall this comment section for various gems for knee jerk backlash, but it is not limited to one side of the table and caused very few of the responses to be productive at all.

Comments sections are not a place for discussion, and they never were. They're shouting down your preferred empty hallway.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I think my point regarding one videogame turning some people, like many women, away from all/most videogames does work, but I guess it needs a little more explanation. When movies were first introduced, it doesn't have to be a porno that could turn away a new viewer, it could be anything seen as "distasteful". And for my girlfriend, watching The Ring turned her off of all horror movies. It didn't turn her off of all movies because she knows there are many types of movies. She is aware of movies because film is a diverse, mature/old, and culturally accepted medium. The same cannot be said of videogames. Seeing Dragon's Crown might not put a videogame newcomer off of playing all games, they might have no qualms about Candy Crush or Just Dance, but it might put them off of every trying a new RPG on the Nintendo SexBox. Until videogames have the same cultural acceptance and depth as other genres, these misunderstandings will continue to occur.

Now, that doesn't mean I want to blame Dragon's Crown. As I have said, I am glad the game was made and can be enjoyed for what it is. But you can't ignore the reality of situations where some newbs might be put off. What Dragon's Crown as a single game can do about that, what responsibility it has towards inclusivity in gaming culture, is debatable.

Ah! Thank you for expanding. I'll just add that I do think video games, slowly but surely, are already crossing over into that enrichment era. Back when the cream of the crop was Donkey Kong 64, I wouldn't really have been able to fathom games like Gone Home and The Last of Us. It already seems that many creators have taken notice of what they can do with the medium beyond the norm. The outlets of individual creation are increasing and with it I believe we will in fact see the future that many are pining for, where the game about an introspective individual character study stands along side the game about beating back alien hordes with a gun and a cigar in terms of value, sooner rather than as people break away from what is expected and begin to experiment.

 

[DeBurgo]

this post i made was dumb and i now decree it to be stricken from the record, your honor.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Criticize the game for things related to the game like the gameplay or criticize the graphics for being poor quality, that is fine.

And why can't the art be criticized? Art often gets praised, and it often gets criticized, for all sorts of reasons. A game's art is a significant component, after all.

What isn't appropriate for intelligent discussion is act like it is the end of world when a game has sexy artstyles.

Which isn't what happened, but nice try. People have acted like it's the end of the world because a game's art has been mildly criticized, though.

 

[unbias]

When movies first came about in the early 20th century, I bet lots of women would have been turned off to the genre if the first movie they saw was softcore pornography. Videogames do not have the mainstream appeal, cultural acceptance, and depth of experiences that movies have spent 100 years building up to. Many see them as toys.

And yes, this is discounting Candy Crush and Wii Fit. Some people mention them in the same breath as Dragon's Crown or The Last of Us, but to many people, especially those not well-versed in videogames, they are entirely different things.

Also, as an aside, my girlfriend was once forced to watch The Ring. She now refuses to watch any movie or television show that contains anything creepy, supernatural, or bloody. Horror is the bloody mistress I must sneak in on the side.

I have not found that to be accurate, at all in fact, I have only ever experienced the opposite, where the casual people who play candy crush and the like think they are video games and those who play the more traditional games dont count them as games.

As for your 1st point... I just dont see that many people heavily analysing the crap they watch. If they find it offensive they dont watch it, but they dont shut themselves off to everything. I mean, sure people who watch scary movies and get terrified dont like watching scary movies anymore, but I dont know anyone who ended up not liking anchorman and just gave up completely on comedies. Sure there are one offs, but I just dont think what you are infering is anywhere near the norm.