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[AniHawk]

Because you're doing it to make a statement. The intent is different.

So how does this affect you, Slavik.

 

[Staccat0]

Marriage should no longer be used in any official document. It should just all be civil union stuff and the marriage part should be religious or ceremony only.

.

plus:
Its unconstitutional for the US government to have a tax status that benefits people based on religious beleifs and psuedo-morality... or at least it should be. I was disgusted how much shit I had to go through to get married. The government had way to much say.

 

[proposition]

What gets me about Prop 8 is the opposition to a law that, essentially, doesn't affect straight people. They have nothing to lose; whether a straight person votes yes or no, they retain exactly the same rights they had before it passes (or not). On the other hand, a gay person is denied rights if it passes.

 

[AniHawk]

What gets me about Prop 8 is the opposition to a law that, essentially, doesn't affect straight people. They have nothing to lose; whether a straight person votes yes or no, they retain exactly the same rights they had before it passes (or not). On the other hand, a gay person is denied rights if it passes.

Which is what I find infuriating about the "but how does it affect ME" tagline for the pro-prop 8 ads.

It doesn't.

It's like they expect people to simply stop being gay.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

I fight for the word marriage for the same reason people oppose it. For equality, for dignity, for tradition.....

I fucking hate that word tradition. If it were up to tradition, I'd probably be hanging from a tree somewhere because I've fucked a few white girls in my time or for even talking to her. For the sake of full disclosure I didn't read the rest of your post and I'm just cherry picking at this point.

 

[Slavik81]

So how does this affect you, Slavik.

It doesn't. I'm not married and it's quite possible I never will be. I wouldn't want to use myself as a model for the American citizenry, though. I think the average person would react differently than I would. Anyways, after further thought, I would like to adjust my reasoning as to why the complaining in that case would be unrelated to the quality.

They'd bitch for the same reason why people bitched about the name change from Revolution to Wii. Did that matter in the slightest? No, but for months the complaining never ceased.

Now imagine if you renamed something that was actually important to the vast majority of the country and that has existed for so long. And imagine that it was something controlled by elected representatives. There would be endless bitching regardless of whether or not it was then reassigned for use by another group. Hell, they'd do it even if they started with civil unions and the proposal was to rename them 'marriages'

Spoiler

I figured Wii was a fine name.

 

[DCharlie]

I hate that their signs say "Protect Marriage." If you really want to protect marriage how about you fucking do something about our sky high divorce rates

lol - basically this.

Marriages these days seem to be in a shocking state, so not sure what there is left to protect!

Perhaps a bill to stitch people up should be :

No on Prop 8, means a yes on the banning of divorce.
If Marriage is that sacred, that's it - once you are in, no way out.

Let's see who wants to defend marriage to the hilt then!

 

[AniHawk]

It doesn't. I'm not married and it's quite possible I never will be. I wouldn't want to use myself as a model for the American citizenry, though. I think the average person would react differently than I would.

They'd bitch for the same reason why people bitched about the name change from Revolution to Wii. Did that matter in the slightest? No, but for months the complaining never ceased.

Now imagine if you renamed something that was actually important to the vast majority of the country and that has existed for so long. And imagine that it was something controlled by elected representatives. There would be endless bitching regardless of whether or not it was then reassigned for use by another group.

Spoiler

I figured Wii was a fine name.

Are you arguing against renaming "marriage" into "civil union"?

 

[Slavik81]

Are you arguing against renaming "marriage" into "civil union"?

No. I think it's a great idea that would be poorly received.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

Speculawyer - He came out against it because he knows that there are enough gay democrats already displeased with his association with Donnie McClurkin that he has to moderate on the issue somewhat.

Whatever dude. Obama's got some of your back. Stop hammering him like a petulant man-child.

 

[Nibelung Valesti]

Are there any polls about this? I'm interested :O

 

[Mahadev]

Everybody is a bigot, they just dont admit it. Do you support Pedophiles? Murderers? Incest? No? Bigot.

Disgusting. I hope you got banned for a long, LONG time.

 

[Rewrite]

I'll make sure to vote no.

 

[Roude Leiw]

fuck prop 8. people have no right to decide if someone can marry or not. doesnt matter at all if they are gay or not -_-

 

[gofreak]

lol - basically this.

Marriages these days seem to be in a shocking state, so not sure what there is left to protect!

Perhaps a bill to stitch people up should be :

No on Prop 8, means a yes on the banning of divorce.
If Marriage is that sacred, that's it - once you are in, no way out.

Let's see who wants to defend marriage to the hilt then!

Breaking marriage should be exclusively for heterosexuals!

 

[Vito]

I'd vote no just because the OP pisses me off... seriously though, it's sad that this issue even needs to be voted on.

 

[iapetus]

Disgusting. I hope you got banned for a long, LONG time.

It's (partly) a valid question, though. Pedophiles and murderers aside, the incest question is a relevant one. If it's a natural relationship between two consenting adults - can you be against it while holding the moral view that we should respect homosexual relationships on that basis?

 

[alistairw]

It's (partly) a valid question, though. Pedophiles and murderers aside, the incest question is a relevant one. If it's a natural relationship between two consenting adults - can you be against it while holding the moral view that we should respect homosexual relationships on that basis?

But there's a biological reason why incest shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Father_Brain]

Speculawyer - He came out against it because he knows that there are enough gay democrats already displeased with his association with Donnie McClurkin that he has to moderate on the issue somewhat.

Uh... what? What exactly is your evidence for this completely unfounded assertion?

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

But there's a biological reason why incest shouldn't be allowed.

so if an incestuous relationship should result in fine/jail time? if an incestuous relationship leads to children should the child be removed from the parents and should they be punished. as long as it's consenting adults, there's no reason it denied.

 

[Mahadev]

It's (partly) a valid question, though. Pedophiles and murderers aside, the incest question is a relevant one. If it's a natural relationship between two consenting adults - can you be against it while holding the moral view that we should respect homosexual relationships on that basis?

Nah, like others said there's a biological reason. If you had mentioned polygamy though I'd agree. Now that's one completely stupid ban based on religious morals I don't give a crap about.

 

[Servizio]

This thread inspired me to reacquaint myself with something I learned about in a Philosophy class. I will post the link in catchy Latin: argumentum ad antiquitatem

 

[iapetus]

But there's a biological reason why incest shouldn't be allowed.

You could make a biological case for the evolutionary dead-end that is homosexuality not to be allowed either. Doesn't mean it's right. Does that mean you're in favour of incest as long as it doesn't lead to children, though contraception or sterilisation?

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

It's (partly) a valid question, though. Pedophiles and murderers aside, the incest question is a relevant one. If it's a natural relationship between two consenting adults - can you be against it while holding the moral view that we should respect homosexual relationships on that basis?

I am not against incest. I find it personally abhorrent, because my sister's one of the most repellant people I know, but as long as those that engage in it, are fully aware of the risks of such a relationship.

But I don't think the world is ready to have such a view yet, not by a long shot.

There could also be far reaching social consequences including far lower genetic and social diversification, due to 'low hanging fruit' syndrome. We would require a progressive system of de-tabooing the issue so to speak, so that disruptive social consequences if they should occur, can be relatively contained.

 

[kinggroin]

I'll give my 2 cents on the issue. I'd vote no on prob 6 because honestly i really don't care if two consenting adults want to make themselves miserable. Either A) make marriage a totally religious ceremony and the government should not have any rights to the word/title/meaning of it (IE There should be no legal document called a marriage license). Or B) make marriage a legal term and grant all CITIZENS the same rights as everyone else.

It's like you're reading my mind.

I think "marriage" really needs to be defined as either or. When looking at this issue (and many related to it), it all comes down to semantics. A problem stemming from the fact that at least on this issue, church and state aren't completely seperated.

Define it. Then move from there.

 

[John Dunbar]

But there's a biological reason why incest shouldn't be allowed.

Homosexual incest is still cool, right?

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

But there's a biological reason why incest shouldn't be allowed.

Given that incest increases rates of birth defects from 2% to about 4%... it's arguable. It is a 100% increase in birth defects. But it's also still a 19 in 20 chance of getting a normal baby.

If there were no genetic defects resulting from incest... would most people be for or against?

How about gay incest?

It's certainly something that piques the eyebrow raising meter... but assessed logically, is it that terrible a thing, providing it didn't affect our overall population management that much?

 

[gofreak]

On principle it's no different.

On principle it's no different from heterosexual sex between two consenting adults either.

Thusly I'm not sure why the question of homosexuality keeps bringing it up.

 

[Skiptastic]

I don't vote and don't live in California. Should I even be posting in this thread?

 

[Hitokage]

You could make a biological case for the evolutionary dead-end that is homosexuality not to be allowed either. Doesn't mean it's right. Does that mean you're in favour of incest as long as it doesn't lead to children, though contraception or sterilisation?

Doesn't mean they are equally valid arguments either. I hate it when people try to argue for an evolutionary dead-end but completely ignore kin selection and social dynamics. Oh, and as for incest... http://discovermagazine.com/2003/aug/featkiss

Nah, like others said there's a biological reason. If you had mentioned polygamy though I'd agree. Now that's one completely stupid ban based on religious morals I don't give a crap about.

Polygamy opens a huge can of worms in maintaining an equitable relationship. Person A meets Person B, they both love each other, they both marry, but what if Person C fell in love with person A, and A wants to marry but B does not? Given Persons D, E, and F introduced into the relationship, is A the only one calling the shots? Do Persons B through F only share the equivalent rights of a singular person B, or do all Persons A through F hold equal stakes? What happens when marriage agreements fall apart? Morally correct or not, monogamy is undeniably simpler.

Traditionally though, polygamy doesn't involve any of these questions. Usually when you hear about polygamy they're really talking about wife herding. There are good reasons to prohibit such relationships, many of them obvious.

 

[Servizio]

Homosexual incest is still cool, right?

This reminds me of the argument about whether having sex with your clone is masturbation or incest.

Which further reminds me of this webcomic.

I cannot wait until we're having impassioned arguments about clones and atomic monsters.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

While we're kicking the can, I'd like to see what it would take to get beastiality legalized. I'm tired of bigoted individuals getting in the way of two consenting mammals.

Spoiler

see what I did there?

 

[btkadams]

While we're kicking the can, I'd like to see what it would take to get beastiality legalized. I'm tired of bigoted individuals getting in the way of two consenting mammals.

Spoiler

see what I did there?

ya, we see what you did. we saw you make an age-old joke thats already been used throughout the thread numerous times.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

ya, we see what you did. we saw you make an age-old joke thats already been used throughout the thread numerous times.

... Guess I'm LTTP

 

[Shockgamer]

While we're kicking the can, I'd like to see what it would take to get beastiality legalized. I'm tired of bigoted individuals getting in the way of two consenting mammals.

Spoiler

see what I did there?

And once again..

 

[Dark Octave]

Yesterday my girlfriend and I were at a burger place and right in front of the building was a 90s Honda Civic hatchback with four "yes on 8" bumper stickers on the dashboard inside the car, one stuck on the front windshield, four stuck on the back windshield, and a huge banner hanging from the cieling of the car over the backseat. We've seen a few more driving around for the past few weeks, but that was the most obnoxious so far.

That car consumed 90% of our conversation while we were there. Not only do they suport something so discrimatory (is that a word? I don't know, but you know what it means) as prop-8, they felt so strongly towards it that they covered every surface of their car with adds for it. I can't believe that this is still an issue in this day and age.

And no, they don't teach about marriage in schools, period. That's a lie. Prop-8 is nothing more than a homophobic's last attempt to deny gay people their basic rights as US citizens. It effects us in absolutley no way shape or form for a gay couple to marry. And this is from a guy, who like the majority of straight people, cringe at the visual of two guys kissing.

I'm with you Nick. I'm voting no on the bullshit prop-8.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

I am bouncing out of this discussion now. I learned a long time ago that defending conservative (or bigot/ignorant/hateful, as many of you might say) principles on liberal GAF is sisyphean in its futility.

Which principle exactly are you defending here? "God hates f*gs?"

 

[Future]

Denying a gay couple "marriage" status would be like denying a minority "citizen" status, yet justifying it by saying the Bill or Rights still apply to them. That would never be accepted, although I imagine some people would vote yes on that idea too unfortunately.

People havent accepted that when people grow up, they just might fall in love with someone of either sex. Its still considered taboo and even "underground" to some people. They dont want kids believing it is easy to be with someone of their own sex, so they want to add as many hurdles as possible.

It sucks that so many people care about what goes on in peoples lives that have nothing to do with them. I'm voting no on that shit

 

[GodMike]

Voting YES just to spite you

Spoiler

if i lived in Cali

I live in Cali and was gonna vote no. But I too would like to spite a GAFer, so YES it is!!

 

[Dark Octave]

Denying a gay couple "marriage" status would be like denying a minority "citizen" status, yet justifying it by saying the Bill or Rights still apply to them. That would never be accepted, although I imagine some people would vote yes on that idea too unfortunately.

People havent accepted that when people grow up, they just might fall in love with someone of either sex. Its still considered taboo and even "underground" to some people. They dont want kids believing it is easy to be with someone of their own sex, so they want to add as many hurdles as possible.

It sucks that so many people care about what goes on in peoples lives that have nothing to do with them. I'm voting no on that shit

Well let's be honest here, who here would prefer their kid to be gay? I'd imagine not too many of us. How many of us would care either way? I think less, but still the majority would be slightly to greatly bothered by it.

I wouldn't want gay relationships to be seen as so normal that my son see's no difference between a boy and a girl when it comes to dating. But it's a chance I would be willing to take if it means equal rights for everyone, which is the way it should be.

 

[Y2Kev]

I don't think I have a problem with incest. I mean, I find it unappealing and I'm sure my sister would as well, but I don't see a problem with it if two people are consenting and of age. We don't necessarily moderate reproduction for people who have a higher risk of passing diseases along to their offspring...

I think you might be able to make a case about the nature of "consent" in an incestual relationship.

edit: At least, I mean, I don't have a problem with it if we're going to use this "consenting adults" thing, which I support.

 

[btkadams]

Well let's be honest here, who here would prefer their kid to be gay? I'd imagine not too many of us. How many of us would care either way? I think less, but still the majority would be slightly to greatly bothered by it.

I wouldn't want gay relationships to be seen as so normal that my son see's no difference between a boy and a girl when it comes to dating. But it's a chance I would be willing to take if it means equal rights for everyone, which is the way it should be.

 

[gofreak]

I wouldn't want gay relationships to be seen as so normal that my son see's no difference between a boy and a girl when it comes to dating.

You can't seriously think that legal acceptance of marriage between two men or two women will have any impact on your own child's sexual orientation.

If your son wants pussy, the fact that same-sex relations are accepted isn't going to make him want cock!

If your son sees no difference, it's because he's bisexual, was and would have been. Not because of an egalitarian legal or social system.

This stuff is way more fundamental than that, and independent of legal recognition. If it weren't, we wouldn't have gay people!

 

[CajoleJuice]

I don't think I have a problem with incest. I mean, I find it unappealing and I'm sure my sister would as well, but I don't see a problem with it if two people are consenting and of age. We don't necessarily moderate reproduction for people who have a higher risk of passing diseases along to their offspring...

I think you might be able to make a case about the nature of "consent" in an incestual relationship.

edit: At least, I mean, I don't have a problem with it if we're going to use this "consenting adults" thing, which I support.

Yes, but what about your cousins?

 

[btkadams]

why is there so much debate of incest in this thread lol. homosexuality is not the same as incest and proposition 8 has zero to do with it as well.

 

[Y2Kev]

I think that would only affect their view if someone was completely indifferent sexually-- something in the middle of the debunked Kinsey scale, were it to actually exist. Someone might have been goaded into pussy by society, but is now free to choose the most suitable pussy or cock, etc.

But there's no way that someone is going to flipflop based on how society feels...it's hardcoded.

Yes, but what about your cousins?

i will ask them at thanksgiving dinner

 

[ivysaur12]

Please, vote no.

This is to everyone in this thread from California. Please.

 

[CajoleJuice]

i will ask them at thanksgiving dinner

You really are the white Himuro.

 

[Y2Kev]

You really are the white Himuro.

You should see the kind of things that get discussed at the table. :\

Last year my 87 year old great aunt called my mom's friend who was visiting a fat whore, lol.

but enough about me, let's talk about my dress proposition 8

 

[Deleted member 1235]

why is there so much debate of incest in this thread lol. homosexuality is not the same as incest and proposition 8 has zero to do with it as well.

because a lot of people are american here, most americans identify as being religious and it's a familiar line for churches to trot out that marrying same sex will lead to brothers and sisters wanting to marry and a man and his dog wanting to be more than just best friends.

It's a popular argument, I know because I heard it from my family when same sex marriage/civil union was legalised in NZ and they pulled this shit as well. By the way, guess what never happened! Turns out incest and beastos like to keep their shit on the downlow.