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[Star Power]

Here it is - though of course it's trickier than saying Obama says YES on Prop 8. They mislead people into thinking that. It's quite a clever ad, frankly...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/1/143257/494

Wow, that's sleazy. Yeah he definitely should've said something about that.

 

[Zilch]

He's not making Blacks look anything........ Some of you are starting to show your asses be easy dude.


lulz at Jasper you really got your point across there. :lol

Uh, yeah, he essentially said that blacks aren't homophobic because they voted YES out of sheer ignorance.

First of all, that doesn't absolve anyone from anything. When you're in the booth and you push down the lever for YES ON PROP 8 you know EXACTLY what the fuck you're doing -- you're making a homophobic, bigoted decision.

Secondly, I'm not sure that making such a broad generalization about the ignorance of blacks is any better than making a broad generalization about the homophobia of blacks. Got it?

 

[IcebergSlim3000]

As Gaborn pointed out, you've got this completely backwards. That's one of the most disturbing parts of all of this; blacks, of all people, should understand what it's like to be discriminated against and many of them ended up being the most discriminatory of all the groups represented (By a pretty large margin).

oh wait I forgot the question was "should gay marriage be overturned" and we voted yes. Sorry about that guys. Sometimes black folks can be really backwards. I don't think any thing like that would have passed in Chicago though.

 

[Tntnnbltn]

First of all, that doesn't absolve anyone from anything. When you're in the booth and you push down the lever for YES ON PROP 8 you know EXACTLY what the fuck you're doing -- you're making a homophobic, bigoted decision.

US voting booths have levers? Really?

What a strange and curious country.

 

[Zilch]

Well in the booth I voted in in my parent's small town it's a small lever. Uh, I don't really know how to describe it. Definitely wasn't electronic or modern, though.

 

[Darkman M]

Uh, yeah, he essentially said that blacks aren't homophobic because they voted YES out of sheer ignorance.

First of all, that doesn't absolve anyone from anything. When you're in the booth and you push down the lever for YES ON PROP 8 you know EXACTLY what the fuck you're doing -- you're making a homophobic, bigoted decision.

Secondly, I'm not sure that making such a broad generalization about the ignorance of blacks is any better than making a broad generalization about the homophobia of blacks. Got it?

Im saying he doesn't speak for all Blacks so please stop the generalizations.

 

[Zilch]

Im saying he doesn't speck for all Blacks so please stop the generalizations.

Oh, I know he doesn't, which is why I took exception to his post in the first place!

Also, why are you bolding the word "blacks"?

 

[Jak140]

While I'm saddened by the line Obama has to walk with gay rights, please remember what Lincoln said in the debates before he was elected:

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people ... I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone

I don't claim to know if Lincoln meant what he said or felt he had to say it to get elected, but no one can say that he did not eventually do the world a great service. I also don't claim to know what Obama truly believes in regards to gay marriage, but I do know that he was about as progressive as he could have been while still having a chance of getting elected and that if he had not been elected, Republican Supreme Court nominees would have certainly set us farther back than any concessions Obama had to make to win.

 

[SoulPlaya]

oh wait I forgot the question was "should gay marriage be overturned" and we voted yes. Sorry about that guys. Sometimes black folks can be really backwards. I don't think any thing like that would have passed in Chicago though.

In Chicago, yes it would have. Narrowly, but it would have. The homophobia running through the inner city of Chicago is huge. Just my personal experiences, though.

 

[etiolate]

Hey etiolate, would you also say that the white christians who voted Yes aren't homophobes either, they're just doing what their pastors told them to do?

Yes, there are white people doing the same thing for the same reason. There are exceptions on all sides as well. I know my mother, who preached tolerance to me of gays, voted Yes because she doesn't extend tolerance to the idea of marriage, for she thinks its a biblical thing.

 

[Darkman M]

Oh, I know he doesn't, which is why I took exception to his post in the first place!

Also, why are you bolding the word "blacks"?

Because it seems like the people that are posting on this issue are make all blacks one entity, all because of the prop 8 exit polling

Sounds like this thread has become"lets blame blacks for prop 8" because they are the only ones that voted yes on it and pull all the strings.

Not saying that this is your view but the last few pages have been despicable and is only breeding more hate, sooner or later gays will be able to marry as they please if they keep fighting, rather then everyone looking at the polls pointing fingers.

 

[IcebergSlim3000]

In Chicago, yes it would have. Narrowly, but it would have. The homophobia running through the inner city of Chicago is huge. Just my personal experiences, though.

Maybe in the urban area's like the southside and westside but for the most part Chicago is a very open city. Hell mayor Daley marches in the Gay Pride Parade every year. Of course in order for something like Prop 8 to even show up we would first have to first legalize Gay marriage.

I didn't know this thread had taken on such an angle. I also had forgotten how rampant homophobia is in the black community for points that have all ready been brought up.

 

[Zilch]

Because it seems like the people that are posting on this issue are make all blacks one entity, all because of the prop 8 exit polling

Sounds like this thread has become"lets blame blacks for prop 8" because they are the only ones that voted yes on it and pull all the strings.

Not saying that this is your view but the last few pages have been despicable and is only breeding more hate, sooner or later gays will be able to marry as they please if they keep fighting, rather then everyone looking at the polls pointing fingers.

Well, I think people like Mercury Fred and others are doing a good job to caution against any sort of ridiculous gays vs. blacks situation that could erupt from this. I don't think anyone posting on this forum thinks the issue is as simple as "blacks are to blame for this". I don't know how to fix the problem, but I'm sure there's a way.

 

[Grimmy]

Wow, that's sleazy. Yeah he definitely should've said something about that.

Exactly. So I think in some ways the disappointment towards Obama is a bit understandable (though also understandably not justified).

 

[Grimmy]

Not saying that this is your view but the last few pages have been despicable and is only breeding more hate, sooner or later gays will be able to marry as they please if they keep fighting, rather then everyone looking at the polls pointing fingers.

I don't think some of us are pointing fingers at blacks per se. But the truth is that right now, out of all the ethnicities, blacks in particular are overwhelmingly anti-gay marriage. I do believe that we need to address it and find out why and how to slowly close the rift. It's a sensitive issue but not identifying and tackling it is also the wrong way to go.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

Because it seems like the people that are posting on this issue are make all blacks one entity, all because of the prop 8 exit polling

Sounds like this thread has become"lets blame blacks for prop 8" because they are the only ones that voted yes on it and pull all the strings.

Not saying that this is your view but the last few pages have been despicable and is only breeding more hate, sooner or later gays will be able to marry as they please if they keep fighting, rather then everyone looking at the polls pointing fingers.

I'm not hating on blacks, but i'm not going ignore reality either. The socioeconomic factors involved don't change the statistics presented. Calling people racist because they are appalled at one discriminated minority bringing down another discriminated minority is completely asinine. These people went into the polling boths and cast their vote, and they are accountable, period. These people aren't children, they knew what they were doing.

 

[Jak140]

Please remember that Barack Obama's former church, Trinity United Church of Christ, with over 100,000 largely black members is one of the most accepting churches of gay rights and that the United Church of Christ endorses gay marriage. This is proof that exposure to gay community members and struggles leads to acceptance.

Lisa Miller, writing in Newsweek said, “As a leader, Wright defied convention at every turn. In an interview with the Chicago Tribune last year, he recalled a time during the 1970s when the UCC decided to ordain gay and lesbian clergy. At its annual meeting, sensitive to the historic discomfort some blacks have with homosexuality, gay leaders reached out to black pastors.”

“At that session, Wright heard the testimony of a gay Christian and, he said, he had a conversion experience on gay rights. He started one of the first AIDS ministries on the South Side and a singles group for Trinity gays and lesbians—a subject that still rankles some of the more conservative Trinity members, says Dwight Hopkins, a theology professor at the University of Chicago and a church member.”

The key to ending prejudice is outreach. When you feel the poison of bigotry seeping into your mind, remember this.

 

[Darkman M]

I'm not hating on blacks, but i'm not going ignore reality either. The socioeconomic factors involved don't change the statistics presented. Calling people racist because they are appalled at one discriminated minority bringing down another discriminated minority is completely asinine. These people went into the polling boths and cast their vote, and they are accountable, period. These people aren't children, they knew what they were doing.

I didn't go to any poll and cali and would never vote on any law to keep any citizen from enjoying the same rights as any other citizen. Just don't let the hate consume you is all im saying.

But if you want to generalize a whole race because the vote didn't swing your way thats fine by me, just forgot the other half that voted yes on prop 8.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

I didn't go to any poll and cali and would never vote on any law to keep any citizen from enjoying the same rights as any other citizen. Just don't let the hate consume you is all im saying.

But if you want to generalize a whole race because the vote didn't swing your way thats fine by me, just forgot the other half that voted yes on prop 8.

We don't have to be racists to see that this is an issue. Of course there are blacks who support gays rights, one of my closest friends is black. That has nothing to do with anything.

 

[grandjedi6]

Gay Marriage? Illinois? On my first though I would say it wouldn't pass in the rural areas and 'burbs while Chicago would have only a slim majority. However Illinois does have a large history of anti-discrimination and is somewhat gay friendly in a legal sense. Also I've read several reports that argue that Illinois has potential to legalize same sex marriage. Plus the fact that Illinois has no civil union or gay marriage law and that we are currently just ignoring the issue means something's going to break sooner than later. Perhaps Illinois will be the first to test Gaborn's Gay marriage without civil union theory. :lol

I honestly don't know how the legalization or a proposition ban would go down in Illinois. Might surprise people, might not.

 

[speculawyer]

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa18/killthee/SMH/screen-capture-4-2.png http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa18/killthee/SMH/screen-capture-5-2.png

Anybody know why the black men data is missing?

Because they beat the shit out of the pollster asking them questions about 'the gay'.

Spoiler

I keed!

 

[Dartastic]

The thing that really confuses me is that the entire ISSUE of gay marriage seems RIPE for the "separate but equal" argument that was fought against by minorities duringg Civil Rights campaigns back in the day. Are people capitalizing on this? As long as you grant MARRIED couples different rights than "civil unions", people are BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST. What don't so many people understand about this! It's the shit like this that really irritates me, and makes me wish I didn't slack off so much in normal college so I could get into a good law school. Granted, I'm still iffy on going back to school in general. But still.

 

[MWS Natural]

I agree. I place blame in this order-ish: The Mormon Church, the poorly run No on 8 Campaign, lazy gay people, slacker voters that sat it out when it was clear that Obama would win, Obama voters who voted for Prop 8.

I'm not interested in pinning blame on the black community, but I am interested in investigating the paradox of Obama voters who voted to strip gay people of rights. That is just fucking confusing to me.

It's really not confusing at all to me. Like many of my friends and family I don't see a correlation between one group fighting against discrimination based upon their ethnicity vs. another fighting against discrimination based upon their sexual preference. Many will see any discrimination as bad and should be ended but the idea of "choice" makes the difference for me. I am black and voted "No" on Prop 8 but I can see why many of my family members voted for it. Prop 8 will eventually pass as younger more accepting voters become the majority but as long as homosexuality is seen as a sin by most in the black church there will never be majority support for it from the black community. If many gay people are angry at blacks for this passing I am honestly not losing any sleep over it.

 

[Dartastic]

FUCK I'M DRUNK AND THIS KINDA SHIT MAKES ME WANT TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL WHY DID I SLACK IN COLLEGE SO I CAN'T GO TO BERKELEY WTFFFFFFFFF WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

 

[Future]

While I'm saddened by the line Obama has to walk with gay rights, please remember what Lincoln said in the debates before he was elected:



I don't claim to know if Lincoln meant what he said or felt he had to say it to get elected, but no one can say that he did not eventually do the world a great service. I also don't claim to know what Obama truly believes in regards to gay marriage, but I do know that he was about as progressive as he could have been while still having a chance of getting elected and that if he had not been elected, Republican Supreme Court nominees would have certainly set us farther back than any concessions Obama had to make to win.

That quote is very fitting to the current situation. Like blacks back then, people still dont accept gays across the board. Knowing this, any smart strategist would tell Obama not to support the minority position regardless of beliefs. To do so would be as stupid as Palin was, in denouncing big towns in favor of small towns with fewer votes. It makes no strategic sense.

That said, I would hope he would have more open minded views, as I wish blacks would in general. Blacks were NOT the reason the proposition passed, as they make a very small percentage of the vote. But it is a little surprising they would be less tolerant. The sad thing, is that it is probably greatly due to religion. People are taught at a very young age that its wrong, and until that mentality flips its going to be hard for these measures to pass.

People in this thread mention favoring abortion as religious hypocrisy, but it might not seem that way to yes voters. After all, rules of sex is one of the main religious beliefs that many christians do NOT follow (sex before marriage). Pregnancies can affect peoples lives in such ways that it feels easier for them to feel more forgiving.

Its also all about the kids. You saw the tv ads. A rising gay community is scary to many traditional families. The fear that boys in elementary may be taught to think its acceptable to bring other boys as dates to their first dance, or kissing other boys on the playground is ok, etc, to many are unacceptable. Especially since a that young age, before hormones kick in, children may be succeptable to taking on gay tendencies regardless if they really are gay or not. They want their kids to have every chance to stay heterosexual and to be pushed in that direction, and NOT feel that they have the option. Keeping the definition of marriage as man and woman, and this getting taught in schools helps solidify this point.

Now for the record, I dont believe all this shit and I voted no on the prop. But it is a hard argument to win against people that vote yes. They jump to conclusions and nothing you can say can convince them that they arent possibilities. Being gay is still considered choice by some. And even those that believe it is not choice, may believe it IS a choice at young ages. They want kids to feel like theyd have to jump through hoops to be gay

 

[Mercury Fred]

It's really not confusing at all to me. Like many of my friends and family I don't see a correlation between one group fighting against discrimination based upon their ethnicity vs. another fighting against discrimination based upon their sexual preference. Many will see any discrimination as bad and should be ended but the idea of "choice" makes the difference for me. I am black and voted "No" on Prop 8 but I can see why many of my family members voted for it. Prop 8 will eventually pass as younger more accepting voters become the majority but as long as homosexuality is seen as a sin by most in the black church there will never be majority support for it from the black community. If many gay people are angry at blacks for this passing I am honestly not losing any sleep over it.

I appreciate your "no" vote, but really, holding onto the idea that gay (or straight) people choose their sexual orientation is just silly. That issue has been discussed to death here as has the correlation between the civil rights movement and the fight for gay equality. They are not exactly the same but they do have similarities. I like to refer to the late Coretta Scott King on this topic:

Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.

I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.

For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people...Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.

Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.

 

[JayDubya]

I appreciate your "no" vote, but really, holding onto the idea that gay (or straight) people choose their sexual orientation is just silly.

Maybe holding on to the idea that it matters is silly.

I don't know, I don't think anyone can prove it either way, and it isn't something I care about / think about. If a researcher proved with 100% certainty that there was no genetic component, that still doesn't justify, to me, interfering in other people's business like that.

 

[Father_Brain]

Maybe holding on to the idea that it matters is silly.

I don't know, I don't think anyone can prove it either way, and it isn't something I care about / think about. If a researcher proved with 100% certainty that there was no genetic component, that still doesn't justify, to me, interfering in other people's business like that.

I actually mostly agree with you on this; homosexuality would be no more wrong if it were a choice, and in an ideal world, that question wouldn't be relevant. However, most religious anti-gay rhetoric is founded on the idea that homosexuality is a choice, and consequently, it's at least politically necessary to argue the issue on that level.

 

[JayDubya]

I actually mostly agree with you on this; homosexuality would be no more wrong if it were a choice, and in an ideal world, that question wouldn't be relevant. However, most religious anti-gay rhetoric is founded on the idea that homosexuality is a choice, and consequently, it's at least politically necessary to argue the issue on that level.

Perhaps, but I guess what I'm saying is that by engaging in that conversation you give credence to the idea that it should matter.

 

[krypt0nian]

I really can't feel a part of this celebration. Part of me feels broken, and left behind.

I'm always dumbfounded when I see one group of disenfranchised people help to further disenfranchise another group. Especially this time when Barack stood for so much more. Playing the blame game is useless, but all I can do is shake my head and think that MLK Jr's words were lost on them.

 

[ronito]

Maybe holding on to the idea that it matters is silly.

oh Jay, you gotta stop this thinking other people think logically and do what's best. The reason it matters is because if it is largely genetic the crazies will get off people's back about it. Yeah I agree that it's stupid to get involved either way. But you can't expect people to actually think "Hey! that's not any of my business is it?" when they've proven time and again they just can't.

 

[perfectchaos007]

LoL. I love how protesters are screaming "H8"

Its not hate, its people who want to keep marriage traditional. White people don't beg to join the NAACP

 

[Mercury Fred]

LoL. I love how protesters are screaming "H8"

Its not hate, its people who want to keep marriage traditional. White people don't beg to join the NAACP

Joke post?

 

[Son of Godzilla]

oh Jay, you gotta stop this thinking other people think logically and do what's best. The reason it matters is because if it is largely genetic the crazies will get off people's back about it. Yeah I agree that it's stupid to get involved either way. But you can't expect people to actually think "Hey! that's not any of my business is it?" when they've proven time and again they just can't.

Except arguing from within the narrative that there's something wrong with being gay won't get anyone anywhere. "Oh they can't help it" is not a compelling argument for anyone but lunatics.

 

[Dark Octave]

LoL. I love how protesters are screaming "H8"

Its not hate, its people who want to keep marriage traditional. White people don't beg to join the NAACP

That could make sense if the people who voted to keep marriage traditional actually honored it's tradition.

"Tell death do us part" is nothing more than just something you say nowadays. It has absolutley no meaning anymore. It's a joke.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Joke post?

I like to speak for the 52% of people who voted yes. Stuff like that must have been going through their minds. Sometimes I post as a steryotype...on purpous. But I do love Ron Paul. Thats not joke.

 

[Tideas]

That could make sense if the people who voted to keep marriage traditional actually honored it's tradition.

"Tell death do us part" is nothing more than just something you say nowadays. It has absolutley no meaning anymore. It's a joke.

so we're generalizing now?

 

[Kauza]

I was talking to one of my Mormon friends last night, and apparently people at BYU were sending out mass mailings all over the country telling people to vote yes.

WTF? I can see no logic behind a person's motivations to do something like this.

 

[Dark Octave]

so we're generalizing now?

When over half of the married population are getting divorced, it's not a generalization.

 

[krypt0nian]

so we're generalizing now?

How many straight marriages end up in divorce? If that's a sacred institution let us gays fuck it up as well.

How is it generalizing if most fail?

 

[Tideas]

How many straight marriages end up in divorce? If that's a sacred institution let us gays fuck it up as well.

How is it generalizing if most fail?

how would one define most? what, over 50%?

So then I guess we can start generalizing about gay people, black people, and everyone out there?

btw, funny anecdotal, one of my friend's professor do divorce law, and she had two gay people filing for divorce in California, and they were saying how they never knew getting out of marriage would be so difficult.

 

[krypt0nian]

how would one define most? what, over 50%?

So then I guess we can start generalizing about gay people, black people, and everyone out there?

btw, funny anecdotal, one of my friend's professor do divorce law, and she had two gay people filing for divorce in California, and they were saying how they never knew getting out of marriage would be so difficult.

Yes over 50%. Its that easy. Generalizing is not a harmful act if you are using the data in context.

You really don't know what most means?

 

[Blader]

I never understood the "sanctity of marriage" argument. Whatever value a marriage has is something that the couple injects into it themselves. There is no inherent value in the institution of marriage, especially when, as others have pointed, more than half of all marriages end in divorce.

Pretty surprised California voted no on Prop 8. Really surprised, actually.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

Sanctity of marriage is a thinly veiled excuse used to disguise deeply rooted homophobia.

If sanctity of marriage was a real issue, people would equally crack down on divorces, on marriages of conveniences, etc, etc.

Modern culture doesn't believe in a sanctity of marriage... and for good reason; we understand that the dynamics of relationships can and do change and that a binding relationship without exit isn't good for anyone.

 

[Mercury Fred]

krypt0nian, the rest of Gayming-Age, supporters, Common Sense Defense Force, et al, it's time to roll up our sleeves and fight. Let's take the momentum of the Democratic domination of this election cycle and make it fuel to fight for equality. The other side wants to play dirty and I think we should do whatever it takes to destroy them.

Every church that gets involved in these anti-gay political campaigns should be stripped of their tax exempt status.

Every closeted right winger should be outed.

Every one of us needs to say fuck it to politeness and loudly voice that bigotry and discrimination are unacceptable.

Right wing extremists are emboldened by their wins this round, so it's key that we increase our fight.

We have Massachusetts and Connecticut, both of which are pretty safe from Prop 8 like measures. We have promise in New York and New Jersey.

There were huge protests last night all over California. This is not over and this is not the time to play dead. We have righteousness, decency and common sense on our side. One needs only look at the desperately deceptive tactics used by Yes on 8 to see that even the other side knows that the truth of the matter is that gay people deserve equality.

 

[krypt0nian]

krypt0nian, the rest of Gayming-Age, supporters, Common Sense Defense Force, et al, it's time to roll up our sleeves and fight. Let's take the momentum of the Democratic domination of this election cycle and make it fuel to fight for equality. The other side wants to play dirty and I think we should do whatever it takes to destroy them.

Every church that gets involved in these anti-gay political campaigns should be stripped of their tax exempt status.

Every closeted right winger should be outed.

Every one of us needs to say fuck it to politeness and loudly voice that bigotry and discrimination are unacceptable.

Right wing extremists are emboldened by their wins this round, so it's key that we increase our fight.

We have Massachusetts and Connecticut, both of which are pretty safe from Prop 8 like measures. We have promise in New York and New Jersey.

There were huge protests last night all over California. This is not over and this is not the time to play dead. We have righteousness, decency and common sense on our side. One needs only look at the desperately deceptive tactics used by Yes on 8 to see that even the other side knows that the truth of the matter is that gay people deserve equality.

Totally agree with what you and Jugendstil posted.

To any LGBT people reading this, do not let this discourage you. The LGBT community cannot allow these defeats to further fractionalize and tear us apart. Don't accept second best, don't allow yourself to be jaded. We have come so far, and so many have lost so much in the struggle to get us to the point we are at now. Use every slight, every insult as a reason to fight harder. We can't play by the rules, because they don't play fair. They will continue to lie and slander us in the media, while we attempt to play nice. Don't take it. Get in the face of every bigot you encounter, protest every initiative that attempts to marginalize our rights and place in society, and boycott any business that would support such measures. Fuck shit up. Living as an openly gay man, woman, or trans person in this fucked up society is already a radical political statement. Embrace that. They won't give us justice when we ask politely, so don't be polite. Don't be cowed, don't settle for the leftovers or the compromises promised by so many politicians. We are not second class citizens, no matter how much we are told that. Be radical, because we will only get what we want when they realize we are louder and stronger than they will ever be. We have to fight this on every level we can, and show we will not take this lying down.

I myself am looking into what Chicago groups I can help out with to show some grassroots support.

I am sick and tired of being trod on in this country. Its contrary to everything this nation was founded on. Being gay wasn't a choice, but spitting in the face of bigotry sure as FUCK will be.

 

[domokunrox]

How many straight marriages end up in divorce? If that's a sacred institution let us gays fuck it up as well.

How is it generalizing if most fail?

Uh, roughly 50% do.

The problem with people in America is that they don't take marriages seriously. Couples have this unrealistic expectation that its going to be cloud 9 for the rest of their life. Its takes hard work and theres going to be compromises on some important issues a couple makes. The problem with people today is they're all about ME. ME ME ME ME ME. ME FIRST. I WANT THIS. Their solution is that this particular issue is so important to them that they can't work it out, so a divorce is needed to them. Then you have Golddiggers and Cheaters. This is all modern society problems. Its fucked up as it is enough.

These are just today's problems. I don't think it makes marriage less sacred or less anything.

When I got married, I got it done early for legal purposes. The actual wedding ceremony with all our friends and family was a month afterward. We went to City Hall and my brother was our witness. My wife and I were wearing jeans too, but it was special nonetheless.

Look, I can understand why everyone wants to share special moments like these with the one you love. I can't force anyone to believe their lifestyle is wrong. But the tradition of marriage is something I can defend, and like I've stated many times before.

Get a different contractual agreement and maybe even give it some new traditions, and take that through the bureaucracy to get the rights that you're asking for. Its a much easier path to getting what you want, and no one can stop you.

 

[Dina]

When so many marriages end up in divorces, I don't think anyone can claim marriage is a sacred institution.

Nor it being gay or lesbian a choice or something you can change or alter on the whim. It's what you are and what you are born with (but usually find out later, much like being hetero).

It's at least conforting that 48% has no problems with gay marriage, not all hope has lost. The small minority of Cal hasn't lost their mind.

 

[Timber]

Look, I can understand why everyone wants to share special moments like these with the one you love. I can't force anyone to believe their lifestyle is wrong. But the tradition of marriage is something I can defend, and like I've stated many times before.

I take it it's the Christian tradition of marriage you are talking about. If so, have you ever heard of something called secularism?

 

[mre]

Totally agree with what you and Jugendstil posted.




I myself am looking into what Chicago groups I can help out with to show some grassroots support.

I am sick and tired of being trod on in this country. Its contrary to everything this nation was founded on. Being gay wasn't a choice, but spitting in the face of bigotry sure as FUCK will be.

Just pay your taxes.











(I kid.)