• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

My journey taught me how dangerous high weight/barbell exercises are

The Lamp

Member
*are

I really regret most of the things I learned from personal trainers, gym fans, and what I've read from fitness communities on the internet including here. Because almost all of it was dangerous in ways most people don't know until they end up spending a year seeing ten specialist doctors like me.

It's extremely common for people to say "oh, you're new to weight lifting? Just start squatting and benching and deadlifting the barbell, and start eating a lot, and you'll be on your way to health!"

Well, I just wanna give a word of caution. Be very safe and very cautious with any workout that is outside of body weight. It can damage your body in ways people don't tell you. And people don't know your anatomy. You may not even know your anatomy. And your physical anatomy can play in a role in how dangerous these can be. I don't think the amount of "generalized recommendation" I see for work outs for people is appropriate.

I did a beginners workout regimen. I did a combination of barbell and dumbbell exercises. I gained 20 (edit: more like 17) pounds in 3 months, most of which was muscle (measured using ultrasound machines). I gained a lot of strength. I did a combination of typical gym routines with a trainer and by myself recommended by most people. Bench press, legs press, squats, overhead press, deadlift, etc.

The problem is almost all of these can damage the body in permanent ways that most people don't know about. I'm not saying that everyone will experience problems with these issues. But these exercises increase your risk of certain damages and that's why my doctors advised me otherwise, and I feel like that's not talked about enough in gym discussions.

I learned that when I got a pain in my back that evolved into a pain in my leg that never went away from a squat. Turns out I have a bulging disc caused by loading my spine with weight. It got injured during a squat. I wasn't even in pain during the squat, but inflammation injuries are delayed. After one physiatrist, two physical therapists, one family medicine doctor, and one spine surgeon, one year later, im still recovering. I may never lose that back pain. All of these doctors said they NEVER recommend patients do squats or deadlifts. These exercises unnaturally load the spine discs with weight that pops them like berries. Treatment for this varies in success and surgery is often worse than doing nothing.

Sometime after this, I saw a neurologist, who recommended me to a neurosurgeon who diagnosed me with Tarlov (meningeal cyst) in my spine. Most doctors don't even know what this is and may not spot it in an MRI unless they're very well-trained. This is a cyst caused by cerebrospinal fluid that balloons into a ball that damages nerves and organs connected to the spine. For most people, this condition incurable, progressive, and eventually leads to unstoppable pain and shut down of organs. Treatment is not very successful because as soon as you take the heavy risk of opening the spine to drain them, they fill right back up. The cause of these cysts? Not well known. Except there are only half a dozen neurosurgeons IN THE WORLD who treat tarlov cysts, with varied success, and one of them happens to live in DFW. He identified my cyst and told me that I should never load the spine with weight. Most people get a asymptomatic tarlov cysts that cause no problems, but sometimes they get symptomatic and cause what I described above. He says 10% of his patients are fitness professionals and trainers and athletes. Turns out, the traditional gym routines people do cause tarlov cysts, because of the immense build up of fluid pressure in the spine by putting a heavy fucking bar on your back.

Right now my cyst is small and it's not causing my leg pain, but it's there, and it was likely caused by barbell weight training. Right now I just have to leave it alone until it gets large enough to warrant risk of treatment.

So throughout all this bullshit, I decided to go back to the gym and be careful with weights. I was told to work on my strength so I wanted to see what I could do safely. My various surgeons and therapists forbade me from vertically loading my spine ever again. So no more squats and deadlifts. So I tried to focus more on exercises with the bar while I'm lying down.

Then in July I suddenly noticed my shoulder couldn't raise my arm laterally anymore. I have no idea what caused it. After another orthopedic surgeon and therapist, turns out I have bursitis (inflammation of the shoulder joint) caused by bench press and overhead press with the barbell. My shoulder bone anatomically curves down a bit, causing my rotator cuff and bursa to impact with my bone when I raise my arm laterally. I would have never known this had I not gotten this x-ray from getting bursitis injury. Bursitis caused my shoulder joint to scar. I am now forbidden from doing anything like overhead and military press, or any lateral movement of my shoulder/arm like tennis, because I could cause permanent injury to my rotator cuff. Again, not because of any bad form or incorrect gym routine, but because as my orthopedic surgeon put it, military and overhead press exercises "tear up" shoulders over time and comprise most of his shoulder patients. And because my shoulder anatomically curves down in a way people on the internet have no way to diagnose before they give you blanket routine recommendations involving lifting weights above your head. Bursitis is caused by lots of things, one of those can be anatomy, but another is the fact that high weights over your head stress out the rotator cuff.

So I can't squat, can't deadlift, can't vertically load my spine, can't laterally raise my arms, and can't lift over my head. Doing so caused and will cause injuries to my anatomy by virtue of how high impact and stressful they are to human joints. 10 doctors including 2 orthopedic surgeons, 1 neurosurgeon, and 2 neurologists I have seen have told me they never recommend anyone lift heavy weights and load their spine or joints. People should do low impact, high rep bodweight exercise/lifting, or things such as walking, swimming, abs/core strengthening, and maybe some cycling.

So why do people recommend beginners get to the squat rack and flatten their joints under several pounds of pressure? The gym I go to had a trainer try to get me to sign up for his training sessions. I told him I can't vertically load my spine or lift my arms laterally or twist my obliques and he laughed and told me what to do anyway. He said "I've had two neck surgeries, I know what it's like, just do what I recommend." Um, I'm gonna listen to the 10 doctors I've talked to in this long year.

Muscle "gains" are not worth spine surgery to me.

I will never recommend the high impact weight routines to people that were recommended to me ever again. Even though I gained strength, I may have permanently damaged my joints and back.

So that's my story. I fully expect bodybuilders to come tell me that I did all exercises wrong and that barbell squatting and deadlifting are safe and effective, but I just don't believe it anymore because I was as safe as I could be as a beginner and all my doctors stressed to me how frustrated they get because they don't recommend those exercises at all and it comprises a lot of the patients that show up at their door.

Jogging and swimming and light dumbbells for me from now on, I guess.
 

Monocle

Member
Damn, I don't know nearly enough to evaluate the specifics here, but thanks for sharing your story.
 
Yeah it’s crazy all the knuckle heads I see at the gym doing dumb shit with weights. I’m surprised more people don’t get hurt. You should really have to take a class or prove you know how to use them before being allowed at a gym.
 

Kuro

Member
Beginner workouts that start with barbells and deadlifts are always red flags for me. You need a lot of core strength and muscle around your back and legs to support those exercises.
 
20 lbs in 3 months?

Either:

A. OP was using old school roids that contributed to his injury
B. OP is blatantly lying
C. OP was a skeleton near death from starvation before starting to lift/eat
D. OP fell for some scam equipment that can ultrasound measure your shit but is total snakeoil.

"My shoulder bone anatomically curves down a bit"

You having a genetic issue with your shoulder sucks but has nothing to do with proper exercise or your shitty lies.
 
So that's my story. I fully expect bodybuilders to come tell me that I did all exercises wrong and that barbell squatting and deadlifting are safe and effective, but I just don't believe it anymore because I was as safe as I could be as a beginner
What was your beginning routines/schedule? My dad got me to start lifting a few years ago, and we'd left three days a week, three exercises a session (squats each time, alternating bench/overhead and deadlift/inverted rows), go up five pounds each session. First 5 sets and 5 reps, and then down to 3 sets and 5 reps.

My mother is 50 and I have slight sclerosis and we've been lifting weights for years. My dad likes to say ”strong with form". Form is everything. We spent more time in the first few weeks practicing form for each move, getting the breathing patterns right, and so on than doing anything with weights.

So, not to trying to mirror your quote, but if I'm being bluntly honest, if you're got hurt like that, you probably did something wrong. Went too heavy, did too many sets, worked out too often, didn't rest enough between sets, didn't have proper form for some moves, something like that.
 

Kuro

Member
Would you say your form was fine for DL/Squats?

It seems he started doing bar squats and deadlifts from the get go which is insane to me. Even with good form you really can't just start with something like that. You have to work out your core and back completely before trying to add to it. This is why I mostly stick to body weight exercise there is way less risk of injury and if I really want to bulk up I'll have the core to do it safely. Too many routines just throw people right on to machines or barbells without thinking. Sorry to hear about your problems OP. It seems like you got hit with a combination of genetics and bad luck but also misinformation from the weight training community.
 
Beginner workouts that start with barbells and deadlifts are always red flags for me. You need a lot of core strength and muscle around your back and legs to support those exercises.

You can do them if you start off with little more than the bar itself and be safe, but yeah you're right, anyone thinking of doing any weighted exercises, barbell or not, should focus on the core solely first. It really is important to learn how to brace and breathe properly, and making sure your form is right, all of which is more and more important as the weight goes up.
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
10 doctors including 2 orthopedic surgeons, 1 neurosurgeon, and 2 neurologists I have seen have told me they never recommend anyone lift heavy weights and load their spine or joints. People should do low impact, high rep bodweight exercise/lifting, or things such as walking, swimming, abs/core strengthening, and maybe some cycling.

Is this fucking for real?
 

DonShula

Member
Sorry OP. That sounds awful.

I just read an article the other day on the safety of full squats. Not that this is your particular situation, but it reminded me of the types you’ve run into. Science says half squats are safest, and the side that says full squats are safe is comprised of... those “yeah but” trainer dude types who think it’s fine because they haven’t been injured.
 

Kuro

Member
Another issue I see with a lot of people doing weight training is a complete lack of proper stretching. Stretching is so important and I'm not talking about simple shit you did in high school or at the work place. Something like yoga mixed with bodyweight exercise stretching will prevent a lot of injury.
 

Lunaray

Member
Thanks for sharing OP. I do squats/deadlifts/bench presses too, and I think most people need to be a lot more careful about how heavy they lift and how often they rest.
 

Madness

Member
I fully expect bodybuilders to come tell me that I did all exercises wrong and that barbell squatting and deadlifting are safe and effective, but I just don't believe it anymore because I was as safe as I could be as a beginner and all my doctors stressed to me how frustrated they get because they don't recommend those exercises at all and it comprises a lot of the patients that show up at their door.

Different strokes for different folks brother. 12+ years of lifting has left me with no issues, nor my friends yet it saved me years of stress, self esteem, tons of things. What went wrong for you may not go wrong for others. Some people play soccer as kids and teens and end up with knee problems and torn ACL and MCLs by their 30's. Some people play tackle football and get concussions weekly all their life.

I have routine physicals. Doing squats, deadlifts, bench presses saved me from a lifetime of obesity, I've never been stronger, my joints are great. No back problems, spine problems. I did tear my hamstring during a 200m sprint somehow. Who knows. Thanks for your sharing your story. Weightlifting is not for everyone and is dangerous I will also admit.
 

The Lamp

Member
Either:

A. OP was using old school roids that contributed to his injury
B. OP is blatantly lying
C. OP was a skeleton near death from starvation before starting to lift/eat
D. OP fell for some scam equipment that can ultrasound measure your shit but is total snakeoil.

Neither.

"My shoulder bone anatomically curves down a bit"

You having a genetic issue with your shoulder sucks but has nothing to do with proper exercise or your

I literally just came back from an appointment with my physical therapist and orthopedic surgeon back to back and they literally just word for word told me that overhead and military press exercises "tear up shoulders" and they don't recommend them. To complicate things, my shoulder bone anatomically curves down and increases the chances of impact-caused bursitis. So it's both.

shitty lies.

I have a report from each month from July to October.

In total it was less than 20 pounds, more like 17 actually now when I look back at it.

This is the machine I used along with calipers:
http://intelametrix.com/FullSite/

Your attitude is shitty though. Get out.
 
This might not be the topic for this, but the subject made me think about it...

Would inversion therapy be worthwhile as an after-workout routine? Heavy weight lifting compresses the joints, and I feel like inversion therapy would be beneficial as a... decompressing aide?

Is that something that's been tested or is valid?
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
Is it so far fetched that doctors who see patients with complications from spine injuries don’t recommend using the spine to unnecessarily bear weight?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like the OP meant the doctors were saying that for the general population, not just in regards to their patients?
 

gdt

Member
I think you are a unique case OP. Lifting has left me with no issues.

Maybe you were doing things wrong or need to up your calcium or something.

Good luck to you OP.
 
It seems he started doing bar squats and deadlifts from the get go which is insane to me. Even with good form you really can't just start with something like that. You have to work out your core and back completely before trying to add to it. This is why I mostly stick to body weight exercise there is way less risk of injury and if I really want to bulk up I'll have the core to do it safely. Too many routines just throw people right on to machines or barbells without thinking. Sorry to hear about your problems OP. It seems like you got hit with a combination of genetics and bad luck but also misinformation from the weight training community.

You can start on them just fine if you use appropriate weight. I started with just the bar for all weight lifting and progress very slowly and put form first at all times.

Everything you do has health risks. Bodies aren't perfectly engineered machines. Evolution doesn't do that. They will break down over time. Things we know however are that healthy diet and regular exercise can keep you going longer. It's better to lift weights if that's the exercise that keeps you active than to not lift weights. All exercises have the risk of injury or can result in negative medical conditions. It's still better to do it than not.
 
I stopped lifting heavy awhile ago after injuring my left rotator cuff. That took a year to recover from. I'm done with the days where I feel like I need to kill myself in the gym to make progress. I've never really had to use that strength to do anything useful other than when I'm moving my stuff from one house to another. Feels good to slim down a bit and finally look normal in a suit.
 
Sorry about your problems OP. Gotta disagree with your conclusions. Although weight training was obviously a detriment to you, and it may be stuff specific to your body, that doesn't really apply to majority of people.
It would be interesting if you could remember and detail your weight gain, supplements, and regimen. If it isn't genetic, it just sounds like you may have done a lot of things wrong.


Is it so far fetched that doctors who see patients with complications from spine injuries don't recommend using the spine to unnecessarily bear weight?

The OP worded it that doctors recommend nobody should do that, not just people with spine injuries.
 

The Lamp

Member
What was your beginning routines/schedule? My dad got me to start lifting a few years ago, and we'd left three days a week, three exercises a session (squats each time, alternating bench/overhead and deadlift/inverted rows), go up five pounds each session. First 5 sets and 5 reps, and then down to 3 sets and 5 reps.

My mother is 50 and I have slight sclerosis and we've been lifting weights for years. My dad likes to say ”strong with form". Form is everything. We spent more time in the first few weeks practicing form for each move, getting the breathing patterns right, and so on than doing anything with weights.

So, not to trying to mirror your quote, but if I'm being bluntly honest, if you're got hurt like that, you probably did something wrong. Went too heavy, did too many sets, worked out too often, didn't rest enough between sets, didn't have proper form for some moves, something like that.


That's the problem though. I paid money for nutrition coaching with a registered dietitian and 2x a week weighlifting coaching and measured my progress and started slow and did my own work outs in addition to that using what I learned for 3 months and I still may have fucked myself up permanently, then what else do you expect from a beginner?

You may not get the issues I get. I may not get the issues you get. But some of these exercises contribute to causing certain health problems, which you may or may never experience. I did.

20 pounds of muscle in 3 months sounds suspect, OP.

Get better tho!

I didn't say 20 pounds of muscle. I said 20 pounds (in reality, almost 20 pounds), and most of the weight was muscle.

I guess I should have expected people were going to focus on distractions in this topic.

This might not be the topic for this, but the subject made me think about it...

Would inversion therapy be worthwhile as an after-workout routine? Heavy weight lifting compresses the joints, and I feel like inversion therapy would be beneficial as a... decompressing aide?

Is that something that's been tested or is valid?

Inversion therapy was something I tried during a period that I improved, so it may have helped, yes. The science isn't rigorously established, but I felt better after weeks of doing that with my physical therapist. Who knows?
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
As an aside, it's incredibly easy to be a certified personal trainer. You literally just need a HS diploma/GED and some money to take the test.

It's only recently that more high-profile gyms have started requiring their personal trainers to have a degree as well.
 

Kuro

Member
Is this fucking for real?

For people who don't work in heavy labor there is no reason to risk injury to the spine lifting heavy loads just to get muscle for looks from their perspective which is understandable. You can be fit and healthy without doing those exercises. Now its debatable whether or not its that dangerous but I'm sure they've seen their fair share of injuries from that to skew their perspective. They could also be just saying that so OP doesn't hurt himself further by attempting to continue weight lifting.
 
Another issue I see with a lot of people doing weight training is a complete lack of proper stretching. Stretching is so important and I'm not talking about simple shit you did in high school or at the work place. Something like yoga mixed with bodyweight exercise stretching will prevent a lot of injury.

Truth. People need to invest in a pullup bar not just for pullups but also for hanging and decompressing the spine before and after working out, or any exercise. Just hang and relax your ass and you'll feel a deep, satisfying stretch in your hips and lower back, even hear a series of pops too. Feels so good. I do it before and after every workout, and a few times throughout the day. Helps with lumbar lordosis too.
 

The Lamp

Member
As an aside, it's incredibly easy to be a certified personal trainer. You literally just need a HS diploma/GED and some money to take the test.

It's only recently that more high-profile gyms have started requiring their personal trainers to have a degree as well.

I know, but mine had a bachelors in kinesiology from UT.

Sorry about your problems OP. Gotta disagree with your conclusions. Although weight training was obviously a detriment to you, and it may be stuff specific to your body, that doesn't really apply to majority of people.
It would be interesting if you could remember and detail your weight gain, supplements, and regimen. If it isn't genetic, it just sounds like you may have done a lot of things wrong.




The OP worded it that doctors recommend nobody should do that, not just people with spine injuries.

Doctors don't like to recommend risky activities. RIsk doesn't mean you will experience problems, it just means you increase your probability of doing so.

Most people may never experience a symptomatic tarlov cyst, for example, but since they know what causes those things, they're not going to recommend such activities when there are alternatives that don't cause it and also get you healthy (like bodyweight exercises and swimming).
 
Is this fucking for real?

Seems legit to me.

If you don't want to get injured then don't lift weights.

If you lift you're attempting to overload and keep your muscles under tension for extended periods of time.

You're getting fatigued and your form becomes sloppy. If you're training hard and maintaining a daily calorie deficit it becomes even more likely that your body isn't going to recover sufficiently between workouts which also increases your chance of injury.

Sooner or later if you lift you're going to get injured one way or another. It's a matter of 'when' not 'if'.
 

DonShula

Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like the OP meant the doctors were saying that for the general population, not just in regards to their patients?

Sorry about your problems OP. Gotta disagree with your conclusions. Although weight training was obviously a detriment to you, and it may be stuff specific to your body, that doesn't really apply to majority of people.
It would be interesting if you could remember and detail your weight gain, supplements, and regimen. If it isn't genetic, it just sounds like you may have done a lot of things wrong.




The OP worded it that doctors recommend nobody should do that, not just people with spine injuries.

I expect that recommendation is indeed for the general population. You can be quite healthy and have sufficient muscle mass without doing that type of lifting. I'd assume they see lifting as an unnecessary risk to one's overall health, informed by the data and patients they've seen.
 

Ploppee

Member
I feel like any "catch-all" criteria for exercise for health benefits is always going to be flawed. Everyone is inherently built differently.

I mean from my own experience, I am slight of build (10 1/2 stone) but I can run marathons, cardio is my strength, I'm strict on my diet, don't smoke and limit my drinking. My housemate however is a heavy smoker, eats awfully and works in a bar, can outlift me any day of the week. His body is built for it, I've seen him squat and lift weights it would take me years to build up to.

Basically it's more find an exercise that suits your body than what is generally accepted as "the best" exercise.
 
Well, I just wanna give a word of caution. Be very safe and very cautious with any workout that is outside of body weight

Where did you get your "Beginner's" Info?

The quoted is probably the first line of text in any gym community I've been to.

Sounds like you read some guide trying to sell Sups and went ham.
I genuinely feel sorry for you OP. But there is so much wrong in your post. You didn't gain 20 pounds of muscle in 3 months.

You either have genetic defects that make your injuries possible, were not using proper form at all, went way too heavy, or did not let your body rest often/long enough. Or a combination of all of it.

Also, being a certified trainer doesn't really mean diddly squat. These are the same jack asses that make you do stomach exercises so you can "lose belly fat". Take anything they say with a grain of salt.
 

HariKari

Member
Injuries aren't common if you use proper form, proper nutrition, and get enough rest. Pretty common if you push yourself past those 3 and/or use questionable 'supplements'
 
I know, but mine had a bachelors in kinesiology from UT.



Doctors don't like to recommend risky activities. RIsk doesn't mean you will experience problems, it just means you increase your probability of doing so.


Most people may never experience a symptomatic tarlov cyst, for example, but since they know what causes those things, they're not going to recommend such activities when there are alternatives that don't cause it and also get you healthy (like bodyweight exercises and swimming).

I expect that recommendation is indeed for the general population. You can be quite healthy and have sufficient muscle mass without doing that type of lifting. I'd assume they see lifting as an unnecessary risk to one's overall health, informed by the data and patients they've seen.


Yea I understand, but I took it that you meant that doctors would advise against it or actively dissuade a healthy person from doing it. I mean, doctors wouldn't recommend quite a bit of physical activities but it shouldn't be interpreted as "Don't do it!"
 
Seems legit to me.

If you don't want to get injured then don't lift weights.

If you lift you're attempting to overload and keep your muscles under tension for extended periods of time.

You're getting fatigued and your form becomes sloppy. If you're training hard and maintaining a daily calorie deficit it becomes even more likely that your body isn't going to recover sufficiently between workouts which also increases your chance of injury.

Sooner or later if you lift you're going to get injured one way or another. It's a matter of 'when' not 'if'.

Not if you're lifting wisely you're not. I rarely ever go to failure and it's not needed to progress and grow.

Hey OP, can we see what your beginning program/routine was like?
 
That's the problem though. I paid money for nutrition coaching with a registered dietitian and 2x a week weighlifting coaching and measured my progress and started slow and did my own work outs in addition to that using what I learned for 3 months and I still may have fucked myself up permanently, then what else do you expect from a beginner?

You may not get the issues I get. I may not get the issues you get. But some of these exercises contribute to causing certain health problems, which you may or may never experience. I did.
But spinal injuries like that can’t be attributed to the exercises alone. Hundreds of thousands (millions even?) do such exercises every day, and proper form is specially designed to not injure if done carefully. That’s what I’m saying, that it’s exercise + something else that causes such injuries.

Your comment on doing barbell and dumbbell exercises stood out to me. My dad taught me to do compound excerises, moves that work multiple muscle groups at the same time. Dumbbell exercises and body building exercises often focus on single muscles/muscle groups. Combining the two can be dangerous, since you can become unbalanced, and especially if you’re switching between powerlifting and bodybuilding exercises in the same workout. Not to mention the extra fatigue you’re putting your body through. It’s like trying to train to be a sprinter and a long distance marathon runner at the same time
 

Social

Member
Yep, been hitting the gym for about a year now, I gained a lot of biceps, triceps, chest and back muscles but no squats or deadlifts and always watching out that I don't overdo it, it's just not worth it. The gym owner is really good at making sure exercises are done correctly with good form. Another reason I avoid squats is because it fucks up the knees easily.
 

The Lamp

Member
Question: When you started how much weight did you use when you deadlifted?

If I recall I think I tried 20 lbs. dumbbells on each hand, which was very easy for me. I was eating and working out and gaining so much strength that I eventually got to what I think was like 80-100 lbs.
 

Prez

Member
I wonder how it will affect most people by age 60, even if done properly. I definitely don't want to increase the chances of developing permanent back pain.
 

Doodis

Member
Sucks, OP. Hurt my back with a combination of lifting weights and shoveling snow a few years ago. My back has never been the same. Got X-rays this year and found out I have spinal arthritis. I've reinjured it a few times trying to add too much weight to my lifts in the years since it happened. I still lift to stay in shape but I'm no longer trying to increase my weight. I try to keep a safe amount on the bar and hope I don't hurt myself badly again.
 

entremet

Member
Barbell lifts with proper instruction and progression are incredibly safe. If you really want to look at the walking wounded, use runners. Runners have the highest injury rates of recreational athletes.

Doctors haven’t been the best at training and nutrition advice historically either. I’ll stick with strength coaches who have decades of real world experience.

Sorry, OP 😢
 
Top Bottom