As a kid that pretty much lived in ISS in elementary school do your son a favor and just take him home or drop them with a baby sitter/family member if possible. We were forced to copy the dictionary from the first bell to the last bell. I missed large chunks of my early education because of this which later came back to haunt because I was severly behind other classmates later in school. Missed learning my times tables, learning measurements simple things that I never had a chance to really learn because all we were allowed to do was copy defenitions from a dictonary all day. Anyway that's my two cents op, good on your son for sticking up for his friend give tye school hell.
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My son fought back against a bully...
- Thread starter CommonSense
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AbsolutBro
Member
I think I do, but I disagree with the idea my child should not fight a punishment for doing something that is "the right thing". I would expect my kid do what is right, exactly like you said, because it IS right. But that doesnt necessitate my child blindly accept punishment.
Two instances of violence occurred:
1) One boy assaulted a boy for no reason. (Bully attacking the smaller boy.)
2) OP's son assaulted the bully to end instance #1.
That #1 should be seen as "more acceptable" or recieve less punishment than #2OP's is simply an injustice. Why wouldn't someone fight that on behalf of their child?
I feel that creates a somewhat dangerous paradign though.
1) Your son is taught to weigh the costs of every action against its consequences. So now something "right" like defending a smaller boy from a bully becomes "is it worth the punishment?".
2) By not fighting against an unjust punishment, you teach your child that motive is irrelevant. That the rules are infallible. That is simply not true.
But he also made a few posts on how much of a mistake that was in hindsight.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
ISS isn't so bad. I've had to do it plenty of times in high school, and look how I turned out?
EYEL1NER
Member
Right. And that was in the past.
So he should be able to calm down and approach this the right way.
I remember in 7th grade, there was this kid I for whatever reason thought would be a good idea to torment. The whole ride home on the bus I taunted him and just kept on about the pounding he was going to get when we got off.
Well, we got off and he attempted to go home but I wouldn't let him and was pushing him. He then proceeded to hulk out and kick the crap out of me. Humbling lesson. I later apologized and we became friends.
Lesson learned: Bullying is wrong and often times hurts...the bully that is.
On an aside, I later ran into him at Ozzfest 97' in Vegas. I guess he hadn't completely forgiven me and he decided to fuck me up in the mash pit. By that point he'd had a growth spurt and done some weight lifting. Very big boy.
That was the last time I saw him. I guess we left as frenemies.
Well, we got off and he attempted to go home but I wouldn't let him and was pushing him. He then proceeded to hulk out and kick the crap out of me. Humbling lesson. I later apologized and we became friends.
Lesson learned: Bullying is wrong and often times hurts...the bully that is.
On an aside, I later ran into him at Ozzfest 97' in Vegas. I guess he hadn't completely forgiven me and he decided to fuck me up in the mash pit. By that point he'd had a growth spurt and done some weight lifting. Very big boy.
That was the last time I saw him. I guess we left as frenemies.
Joel Was Right
If you smell burning, it's probably the generators acting up. Report it anyway.
You're son proved he was willing to fight back, that is where the justice is, not with the school
I ask because I am truly interested : what makes you go "Ok I'm gonna ruin this guy day/year/life" ?
I never felt this kind of pulsion, I mean my goal was to be involved with the less people as possible and avoid all tedious and ridiculous troubles
freenudemacusers
Member
Who wants to be that close to Eastern Europeans?
I would very much so want my son to be thinking about the overall morality of a given situation. I think a good basis of ethical and moral thought is extremely important to teach from a very young age.
Also, I do not define that punishment as unjust, so your second point is irrelevant. If you've accepted the consequences that have been presented to you in the past, then you cannot after being punished knowing full well what the consequences are, try to say they are unjust.
Instead, if after being punished you find that the punishment was inadequate in some way, you should fight to have those punishments changed for future altercations.
You make a good point, and yeah I think I'd want to fight for my kid in that case too, and I'd want to give them the just result for sure.
But I also wouldn't want my child to think that he can fall back on someone when shit does happen - when my child is still under protection I'd be able to protect them, or fight for them, and even turn around an unfair result into a fair one. But what about when they have to fend for themselves, and they aren't able to fight against a punishment, despite how unjust it might be? When they become their own man?
Perhaps it's unnecessary for them to experience injustice first hand to hammer the fact in that the world isn't just. But I think it's also important to teach them that sometimes shit does happen, and it is important for them to always remember that a good deed is done because it is inherently just and that their actions are what truly make it a valuable deed, not because the results would always be desirable for them, and realize the consequences.
I think what you and I are trying to teach our hypothetical kids(at least in my case) is the same though, and your way is perfectly sensible too.
Shit, this is what I was trying to say in one neat sentence.
CommonSense, sounds like you did everything right up to now. Your kid clearly did the right thing in standing up for his friend, and pushing back against the school's ridiculous punishment is also entirely reasonable.
I hope you're not about to get in trouble for going after another racist asshole. :/
I hope you're not about to get in trouble for going after another racist asshole. :/
Earthstrike
Member
Have your son stay at home for the suspension period. Just call the school and tell them that he won't be serving the suspension in school but rather at home. What are they gonna do? Not educate him forever?
Interesting.
CommonSense
Banned
No man. I spoke with both his stepdad and his real dad. The real father has a protective order served against him by the stepfather and seems to be an old school racist who onky see's his kids once a month. My wife is going to the school and I am heading back to work. My wife and their family will be at the school at 3 and I am going to bury myself in work. The stepdad seems like a decent enough guy and advised me real pops is in and out of jail with some frequency.
Sorry gaf no drama.
Deified Data
Banned
This is where I'm leaning, too. OP's son is a victim here, but he's most definitely in the wrong. That said, there's really nothing he could have done. The right answer is to ignore him. Not beating the shit out of people who offend you is an essential part of being an adult.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Clearly it was.
Glad to hear it, dude. Hope your wife gives them hell.
I was going to suggest that as well, tell them that you don't agree with or support their decision and that you will be taking him bowling every day of his suspension just so they know he isn't being punished for not being a doormat and standing up for a friend.
I agree, but it sounds more like a punch, not a Goodfellas style beatdown, and he isn't an adult, kids are fucking evil, if you don't stand up for yourself you will have a hellish time.
When he returns he'll be made to serve the suspension.
In-school suspension is fine provided a child is allowed to work on his school assignments and not made to do some menial/punitive tasks existing outside the curriculum.
And, again, you don't want to reward a child for being violent.
That's a relief.
CommonSense
Banned
Thanks. I am sure everything will work out okay. I really think this "bully" is really a product of his father's ignorance. I actually feel bad for him.
I don't know man. I'm 34 now. I was like 12-13 then. Was probably a combination of my own social inadequacies and wanting my friends on the same bus to see me as the alpha male. In retrospect it's completely insane and quite pathetic.
I bullied a lot. I was also bullied a lot when I was younger. So maybe I was just acting in accordance with what my own experience taught me was normal. Ultimately, there is no excuse for the behavior to cause misery indiscriminately, especially in the tumultuous formative years of a young person.
In my defense, I admit I acted like a cunt and at some point decided to apologize to anyone I ran into as an adult for an misery I caused, much like someone going through AA is required to do. It doesn't erase the damage or make it alright but I hope in some measure it brings closure to that person.
I remember I used to tease this girl in high school mercilessly. I later worked with her. I apologized profusely and asked forgiveness. She didn't even remember, or if she did, wouldn't acknowledge it. So maybe in some instances, I was more traumatized by my own reprehensible behavior.
Best fucking idea so far.
This update about the real dads comments is infuriating. I've put up with my own personal share of racial intolerance, but if I had a family and it was directed at us as a whole I dunno how I'd react... I'd hope I'd be level headed, but I could also see myself punching this guys nose in.
Captain Chaos
Member
Spot on.
indeed, that's what most bullies are unfortunately
ReadingRambo
Member
Your son attacked another student. ISS was lenient. He can report bullying to any teacher/administrator in that school. If nothing was being done then you as the parent need to go and meet with the administration. The bully was in the wrong but so was your son.
OP, sounds like you're doing everything right. Thankfully my daughter hasn't gotten in any trouble in the first grade yet, but there's a girl in her class that's a friend of hers, but makes fun of my daughter sometimes and gives her a hard time about stuff. So I've told her to stick up for herself, but it's hard for her because she's really sensitive and is about as far from a bully as there could be.
CharlieDigital
Banned
There are ways to defend someone without physically attacking the bully.
Maybe just try to separate them, call the attention of a teacher, walk away with the target of the bullying, all of the above -- all sorts of ways to resolve this situation without escalating.
This, too, is a life lesson.
spindashing
Banned
I hope everything ends well for you, brother.
AbsolutBro
Member
I agree that children should learn morality and ethics from a young age. I disagree that possible punishment should factor into morality or ethics though.
So you do not define a punishment which prefers an aggressor to a defender as unjust? If so, we have very different definitions of justice.
As to trying to change the punishment after the fact, why on earth if you feel it is unjust would you make someone endure it a first time? Why throw someone under the bus?
Steve, some people need to be told out to parent obviously or people like this Bully wouldn't exist, parenting advice should not be treated like some kind of slap in the face.
EYEL1NER
Member
It has been pointed out a couple times that the way it more than likely works is the ISS would get moved to when he returned to school.
That is the way the Independence public schools I went to did it. If you could avoid it by not going, kids would just fake sick the whole week and chill at home.
Broken homes produce broken children unfortunately.
Could you be a little more patronising please?
If you are suggesting that telling a kid to stand up to bullys produces more bullys then you are way off.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
A chance to learn a life lesson. Sometimes life isn't fair.
AbsolutBro
Member
By standing up for your child, you teach them how to stand up for themselves. Im not suggesting that you fight every single punishmemt obviously. Had CommonSense's son been the aggressor, or had his and the bully's punishments been reversed Im skeptical we would having this discussion for instance. But thats not the way things went.
You can teach your child that the world isnt 100% fair without forcing them to go through the an injustice in the same way you can teach them that boiling water is hot without allowing them to stick their hand in it. Sure, pain may be the best teacher as the saying goes, but it is far from the only teacher. The world will attempt to foist all manner of injustices during their life times. Some can be fought against, and should where possible, because there are plenty that cant be fought.
In response to Mully's (and others') comments I feel like I should be clear that Im not trying to insist that there should be no punishment at all, but that at least it should be as close to fair and just as is possible; the given punishment is not even close to either.
not psycho
Member
Can't really say anything without knowing the severity of the shaking and the hits. Could be that the bully was shaking someone hard and the punches were basically in line with that. Or the punches could have been full force blows that went well beyond what was needed to break up the shaking.
No, it was. OP said the bully had been behaving like a total dick for several years, it was about time someone taught him a lesson.
I hope you make the school lift your son's suspension, OP. And take him to the movies or something, he earned it.
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