Support NeoGAF

[The Main Event]

Can anyone explain this to me a bit deeper

LCD, DLP and Plasma televisions have by default a "line doubler", which convert the interlaced signal into a "progressive" signal, since those technologies cannot output an interlaced signal anyway. CRT TVs do ouput both interlaced and progressive (EDTV, HDTV).

The line doubler is built-in by default and cannot be changed, and some television makers have really good double liner to upscale the interlaced picture in a much better quality image (Sony televisions come to mind). That's why sometimes an interlaced picture will look better on some TV than a progressive picture, it's just that the line doubler from the TV is actually better than the line doubler from the source (ex: DVD players, gaming consoles).

A great way to test your television upscaler. Turn your sharpness to 0, then switch your source between progressive and interlaced. If your picture is blurrier in progressive than in interlaced, that means that your TV upscaler is better than the source's, and that you should output it that way to have the clearer and better picture.

Again, it's useless to try it out if you have a CRT TV, it should look better in progressive by default. That's mostly for LCD, DLP and Plasma.

 

[woxel1]

That was an excellent explanation, Mr. Event. I have one question though... is there any downside to using the television's line doubler as opposed to the console's internal one? Am I going to be missing any detail, or am I worrying too much?

 

[hyp]

there's no hope man. give it up, wii is stuck in 480 hell, progressive or interlaced... just get used to it. no set of cables will ever change that.

 

[The Main Event]

That was an excellent explanation, Mr. Event. I have one question though... is there any downside to using the television's line doubler as opposed to the console's internal one? Am I going to be missing any detail, or am I worrying too much?

You should only compare the two and see what's better to your eyes. There shouldn't be any disadvantage by using one or the other since like I said earlier, an LCD/DLP/Plasma TV output an interlaced image in progressive by default anyway. One thing that I noticed with the Wii though, the progressive output doesn't seem to be as good as the GCN one unfortunately, it compares more to the PS2's (at least to me).

My original Xbox actually looks better in progressive with a little tweaking, less jaggies/artifacts, and a better contrast. My Panasonic DVD player, PS2 and Wii are all running in interlaced, since setting them in progressive turn them into a blurry mess.

So basically, most of your image quality will depend on your connection, your calibration and the video scaler.

 

[Argyle]

The line doubler is built-in by default and cannot be changed, and some television makers have really good double liner to upscale the interlaced picture in a much better quality image (Sony televisions come to mind). That's why sometimes an interlaced picture will look better on some TV than a progressive picture, it's just that the line doubler from the TV is actually better than the line doubler from the source (ex: DVD players, gaming consoles).

Well, that's all well and good for things like DVD players, but I do not think this is necessarily true for game consoles. You can reconstruct the entire image from an interlaced signal if the game is running at 30fps, but if the game is running at 60, running in 480p vs 480i effectively doubles the resolution. No scaler can make something out of nothing, so 480p will always look better in this situation (since the game console isn't "line doubling" at all - it's simply outputting all the picture information instead of half of it).

 

[Boerseun]

Slightly unrelated, but on the PAL GC using a SCART-RGB connection you have to set sharpness to maximum to get the full benefit of using the cable.

Also, it's usually best to avoid cheap third-party cables.

 

[fubarduck]

LCD, DLP and Plasma televisions have by default a "line doubler", which convert the interlaced signal into a "progressive" signal, since those technologies cannot output an interlaced signal anyway. CRT TVs do ouput both interlaced and progressive (EDTV, HDTV).

Again, it's useless to try it out if you have a CRT TV, it should look better in progressive by default. That's mostly for LCD, DLP and Plasma.

Your explanation is OK, but you're a little confused here.

There is no difference between CRT and LCD, DLP, Plasma concerning interlaced/progressive signals so long as they're all HDTVs.

HDTVs can't output a 480i (Standard Definition Interlaced) signal, period. That includes HD CRTs also.

Secondly, EDTV is not interlaced. EDTV is 480p, which is a progressive signal. SDTV is typically 480i (interlaced) only (except for old video game systems, which output 240p, progressive).

HDTV signals can be either interlaced or progressive. 1080i is an interlaced signal, while 720p/1080p are progressive signals.

The proper terminology for a TV to convert a 480p (EDTV) signal to it's native resolution (which could be 720p, 1080i, 1080p, or something completely different) is called scaling. Deinterlacing only happens when going from an "i" signal to a "p" signal.

So, just remember that "scaling" is the word you're usually looking for, and there is nothing different or special about CRT technology that allows it to output a 480i (SDTV) signal. No HDTVs can output a 480i (SDTV) signal, period. SOME CRTs can output 480p and 1080i (but most only 1080i). Non-CRTs can only output one resolution, which is always progressive.

 

[dammitmattt]

I would like to throw my hat into the "I turned the sharpness down and it didn't change shit" camp. Zelda looks great in the cutscenes, but can we please get some AA during normal gameplay?!?

 

[Durante]

You won't get AA on the Wii. For now, we don't even get 32 bit color in most games!

Edit:
Please no one argue with the pokemon screenshots, those have about 8x SSAA. In other words, they're bullshots from an IQ PoV at least.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I too would be keen on impressions of anyone hooked up to a big screen (DLP Projector) through component as to how they find they image. Thanks in advance.

 

[dammitmattt]

I too would be keen on impressions of anyone hooked up to a big screen (DLP Projector) through component as to how they find they image. Thanks in advance.

Let me save you the trouble.

Component - jaggies
Composite - the blur

 

[gkryhewy]

A great way to test your television upscaler. Turn your sharpness to 0, then switch your source between progressive and interlaced. If your picture is blurrier in progressive than in interlaced, that means that your TV upscaler is better than the source's, and that you should output it that way to have the clearer and better picture.

I guess this is why my HD cable picture looks much better when the box outputs at 1080i rather than 720p (my DLP is 720p native). My 360, however, seems to look better outputting at 720p.

 

[Core407]

I turned sharpness to 0 and there is still jaggies. Oh well I can live with it.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[garth2000]

You should only compare the two and see what's better to your eyes. There shouldn't be any disadvantage by using one or the other since like I said earlier, an LCD/DLP/Plasma TV output an interlaced image in progressive by default anyway. One thing that I noticed with the Wii though, the progressive output doesn't seem to be as good as the GCN one unfortunately, it compares more to the PS2's (at least to me).

My original Xbox actually looks better in progressive with a little tweaking, less jaggies/artifacts, and a better contrast. My Panasonic DVD player, PS2 and Wii are all running in interlaced, since setting them in progressive turn them into a blurry mess.

So basically, most of your image quality will depend on your connection, your calibration and the video scaler.

Good explination Main Event.

I'm kind of slow when it comes to these things. I got my component cables last night, and noticed the Wii looked waaaaayyyyy blurrier in 480p than it did in 480i (I have a Sharp Aquos 37"). So you are saying I should just run it in 480i, and my TV will handle the rest?

edit: The Wii is the only system I have this problem with. PS2 looks great in 480p (for the few games that actually support it), and my 360 looks great no matter what.


Thanks