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N+ Developers talk XBLA: "There's like 100 games, and they're all shit." (plus more!)

besada

Banned
MS controls what is released, the price point, and the schedule. It's their marketplace. PSN and WiiWare both do the same, as far as I know. PSN only updates on Thursdays. WiiWare hasn't even pushed out their channel, but the games are getting reviewed and I highly doubt they're going to let devs throw shit up on the network higgledy-piggledy.

The reason all of these companies need to have control over the pipeline is because they are responsible for what goes across the pipeline, and they're all pushing themselves as family friendly companies.

I'd love a youtube of videogames, but a)most of it would be utter shit and b)after about the second game that involved racial killings, school shootings, or some other nonsense, the lawsuits and political threats would start flying.

I think MS's unwillingness to let people have free themes and pics is ridiculous. I think the removal of N+ map editor is equally ridiculous. There's a ton of shit that Ms is doing wrong, but the people talking about an unchecked, unmetered, uncontrolled system are just delusional.
 

Slavik81

Member
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.
 
besada said:
MS controls what is released, the price point, and the schedule. It's their marketplace. PSN and WiiWare both do the same, as far as I know.

AFAIK Nintendo lets wiiware developers set the price and the release date
 
Idiocy. I own N+ but it isn't even close to being one of the best games on XBLA. I really hate when developers come out and say "Well our stuff is great, but everything else sucks".

In fact... it's a shame that they didn't come out and say this a week ago because I'd have happily skipped their game and continued playing the other "shit" XBLA games that I've been enjoying.
 

Kuroyume

Banned
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.

GRRRRRRRRR I'M SO ANGRY!
 
Draft said:
They are PC developers. They owe no allegiance to any console manufacturer. This is a luxury of the PC developer. Absolute truth, free from the binds of platform slavery. It is beautiful.
They signed a contract. They're Bill's bitches now. He just hasn't sent the lads round, yet.
 

Slavik81

Member
Mario said:
Arbitrary? The hoops you have to jump through all have purpose even if it appears to some developers that there is none.

It would be counter to making money if Microsoft made the process arbitrarily harder just for the sake of it.
Arbitrary is a poor word. I appologise if anyone picked that up from my posts.
I quite clearly stated earlier that these rules do have a purpose: the meager improvement of Microsoft's position at considerable expense to developers and end-users.

Kuroyume said:
GRRRRRRRRR I'M SO ANGRY!
No. Just tremendously disappointed.
 

besada

Banned
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.

Dude, be a crybaby more. I responded to you. You're spinning these imaginary webs of "what could be" without ever considering any of the downsides or simply recognizing that these are companies that are in this to make a profit. And it's okay if they make that profit, imo, because that profit drives them to expand the service and make even more profits.

Could it be better? Absolutely, yes. There are many things I would love to see fixed. Does it make me want to start a revolution and whinge about it on Gaf all day long? No, because I recognize that a)it's better than it's ever been and b)that it will continue to loosen up as companies get a feel for what they can handle.
 
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.
QFT. It's just been Xbox Defense Force in here.
 

vangace

Member
That guy who replaced Peter Moore seems like a Douche to me, not once has he said anything. At least with Peter Moore he seems like he was more accessible(sp), he seemed like he really cared. Now its just total silence.
 

Draft

Member
miyamotofreak said:
QFT. It's just been Xbox Defense Force in here.
This is a common faux pas. There is no such thing as the Xbox Defense Force. They are called Xbots.

Likewise, it's incorrect to say Sbot. They are the Sony Defense Force, shorted to SDF.

Avoid embarrassing forum gaffes!
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
miyamotofreak said:
QFT. It's just been Xbox Defense Force in here.

It's not so much Xbox Defence Force as it is that XBLA is an 8/10 and rather than focusing on the fact that it could be a 10/10, we're focusing on the fact that the article claims it's a 2/10 and most of the major complaints that I personally have with XBLA have nothing to do with the article at all.
 

Meier

Member
I wanna know how an awful game like Bliss Island is even made let alone released for XBLA. I love LA games, but offhand I can't think of more than 1 or 2 originals that are any good. All the games I love for it are ports or board games put online.

It's pretty sad in that regard.
 

Rlan

Member
Aren't most of the delays of XBLA games to the whole XBLA Wednesday business anyhow? Maybe those slots were already filled up with games already waiting. and XBLA Wednesdays has worked INCREDIBLY well for the most part.

That's going to happen during this year too - there are already at LEAST 13 games in waiting for a "Spring" release:

Assault Heroes 2
Bionic Commando Rearmed
Braid
Commando 3
Elements of Destruction
Happy Tree Friends: False Alarm
Mr. Driller Online
Pirates Vs. Ninjas Dodgeball
RooGoo
Rocket Bowl
Shred Nebula
Peggle
Vigilante 8 Arcade

Plus games that could pop up any day now:

Aces of the Galaxy
Buku Sudoku
War World
Rocky & Bullwinkle
Feeding Frenzy 2: Shipwreck Showdown
Battlezone
Ikaruga
Shotest Shogi
Warlords

and a large selection of these games look like they're going to be GREAT.

There are people who also LOVE some of these games others think are medicore - like Arkadian Warriors or Commander: Attack of the Genos. I though both were pretty lame but there are people who do swear by them. Curse those OPINIONS.
 

watership

Member
I'd take all the shitty games on XBLA just because of all the gems that have surfaced on the platform. The service is constantly bitched about. I'm just glad the 360 demo release bitching has died off.
 
Draft said:
This is a common faux pas. There is no such thing as the Xbox Defense Force. They are called Xbots.

Likewise, it's incorrect to say Sbot. They are the Sony Defense Force, shorted to SDF.

Avoid embarrassing forum gaffes!

Let's get ProSonents going, people! Non-inflammatory, creative. It's the best choice.
 

besada

Banned
Meier said:
I wanna know how an awful game like Bliss Island is even made let alone released for XBLA.

Someone, somewhere decided it had a good chance of making money. The same reason all games get made.

This time they were wrong (I hope).

BB said:
Let's get ProSonents going, people! Non-inflammatory, creative. It's the best choice.

I find partisan walks the line nicely.
 
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.

I haven't said that at all, so I singlehandedly refute your blanket statements. Which is always fun to do, as they (blanket statements in general) always tend to be reductive and counterproductive to positive discourse.

Clearly people DO want XBL to improve. Who doesn't? Who LIKES paying for things that should be free? Who LIKES games to be stuck in a release queue and not on their consoles? Who LIKES having a week with no games when dozens are languishing in cert?

Blind cronyism is bad, but so is the blanket dismissal of an entire userbase, and so is throwing your hands up in the air and "storming out" of a thread when there are clearly at least one or two people already having a reasoned discussion about it.
 

Salmonax

Member
Slavik81 said:
No. Just tremendously disappointed.
When you put any faith in a message board, you do so at your own peril.

These guys are right about some things, but they have an arrogance about them that clouds their message. The criticism of XBLA is probably partially deserved, but the pot shots at other developers and games seem totally unnecessary. Because they only bought five or six games, there are only five or six good games on there? Asinine.

"Who buys Pinball FX? Yuk yuk." I did, and it's great.
 

Rlan

Member
Meier said:
I wanna know how an awful game like Bliss Island is even made let alone released for XBLA. I love LA games, but offhand I can't think of more than 1 or 2 originals that are any good. All the games I love for it are ports or board games put online.

It's pretty sad in that regard.

51521K6T8TL._SS500_.jpg


Bliss Island was actually a PSP game beforehand. It probably sold so god awfully that Codemasters attempted to regain some of it back, and instead of selling the game for $30 they're selling it for $5.

Hey it was released on the same day as Brain Challenge. Usually a 2-Game week means one of them is awful and just needs to be released.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.
You've criticized the existing system, but you haven't really offered any realistic alternatives. And no one is defending MS when it comes to things like locking out all user generated content and forcing companies to charge for themes and gamerpics.
 

epmode

Member
WickedLaharl said:
i played the demo for N+ and thought it was shit. N+ developers, your game is shit.
Luckily for them, there are lots of other people who actually have taste. You can learn something from them.
 

McBradders

NeoGAF: my new HOME
These boys are sure gonna have fun with their disc and cartridge based products.

And if they were self publishing those, they wouldn't even get shelfspace, so, yeah... whatever dudes.

Love your game, but really, keep your complaints more concise and lower the arrogance.
 
epmode said:
Luckily for them, there are lots of other people who actually have taste. You can learn something from them.

no thanks. i'm fine with my taste
opinions
and my ability to not get suckered into gaf hype. saves me plenty of money.
 

Terrell

Member
Mario said:
Arbitrary? The hoops you have to jump through all have purpose even if it appears to some developers that there is none.

It would be counter to making money if Microsoft made the process arbitrarily harder just for the sake of it.
That's what I was talking about. A month and a half is not too bad, compared to other stories I've heard, like three months and more.

RB: That's true. We actually dodged a bullet. The only reason why we weren't even more bumped is because we spent all kinds of money on the launch party, which was last week, because it was supposed to be coming out the week before. Also they're doing a postmortem [at GDC]... they are doing one of a game that isn't even out yet. [The game debuted on the Wednesday of GDC.]


NW: It's only by one day.
RB: The guy at Microsoft was like, "Because of those things, I was able to prevent you from being further bumped." It was like, "FYI, you could've been even more screwed!"

NW: This is where you really feel being small. You see this giant wave coming toward you and you can't do anything about it. You've got to move.
Spending over a month with a finished game in your pocket seems rather arbitrary to me, especially when there's no consistency to things with this wait, as demonstrated by this quote.

It could go either way. One thing is, we don't have much information about what sells. It's really hard. We keep asking. I know you can get detailed sales. We have one spreadsheet from a year ago with very detailed everything, but they won't give it.

NW: It's not coming from Microsoft.
RB: No. It's like we had to sneak and get someone to give it to us.
How does not providing sales data to know what is and isn't compatible with the userbase saving MS money, exactly? This sounds rather arbitrary, as well.

RB: That's another thing. We wanted to put our Gamerpics and themes, like the N+ ones, for free, because we figured, "Who even buys themes?" It's not worth 500 sales. Why not everyone have it for free?

Because then it's good as marketing, and it's people who are fans who get something. It's like, everyone wins. But apparently they have a policy where you're not allowed to. But apparently that's a lie, because you can get Halo...

MS: The Live Marketplace page says, "Some of these you can get for free, and some of these will set you back a few."

NW: You can get Halo themes for free and Grand Theft Auto themes for free.
RB: Oh, really?

I imagine the reason those are free is because Rockstar paid for free themes. I'm not sure.

MS: But it's not an option for us. Just blanket not an option. It's so superficial.
So, MS allows some content to have free themes, and doesn't even give the option for other developers to use that same ability, even if they pay money out of their own pocket to do it like Rockstar probably did in this example? No, nothing arbitrary about that.

Did you have to do all the localization stuff on your own?

RB: Yeah. Well, we had to pay for it.
MS: Because we published.
NW: We tried doing it like... do you remember that Japanese version?

RB: Yeah. We Google Translated for Tokyo Game Show. We really wanted to get them to show it at their thing. But the people we hired to translate it, the deadline wasn't for like a month later, so we tried to do it ourselves.

NW: You only had to have the main menu, remember?

RB: The stupid thing is, Microsoft said, "No, there can't be any English." But if you look at even Japanese games, there's English all over. There's "Start."
MS: We went to see them at the Tokyo Game Show.

RB: We took pictures of what they did show, and there was English all over it. It was more like, there was another "us getting dicked around,"
So, as you can see here, HUGE double-standard... and money isn't even involved there.

So your assumption that all their gripes are justified because it saves MS money, when NONE of the things they complain about have a financial standpoint at all, is kind of silly. It IS arbitrary, they're giving different rules to different developers with no rhyme or reason to any of it. I'm sure they wouldn't mind as much if everyone was jumping through the same hoops as them. What about the things quoted here make ANY sense? I'm not even a developer or emotionally-invested in their project, and even I think the things they discuss here are utterly retarded.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
WickedLaharl said:
i played the demo for N+ and thought it was shit. N+ developers, your game is shit.
If you think N+ is shit that's okay. It's your opinion and the game probably isn't for everybody. But I'm wondering why there are so much more negative comments about N+ in this thread than the official one. If the game is "shittier than a fat man's ass after he ate a gallon of beans" then why not warn people right after it was released? Why bottle up all those feelings until now?

The cynic in me thinks that people are having negative reactions to the comments and are taking their anger out on the game. If Michael Jackson announced to the world that he loves to diddle little boys would people say that Thriller was shit? They would, and, in my opinion, they would be wrong.
 
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.

Remain calm citizen. Only a MS PR is going to claim XBL (specifically the XBLA model) is perfect and theres no room for improvement. When you hear developer A say "MS wont let us do this" and developer B say "We want this to but free but MS wants this priced at such and such" it is indeed annoying.

Here is an example. My "dream downloadable game": Trackmania. If you've played a Trackmania game you know it is VERY much about playing user created maps. Now lets say this game is available on XBLA, PSN, and WiiWare at the same price point. Graphically the games are more or less identical, solid online play, and there's an in game level editor and it's easy play user created maps via an in game download hub and servers automatically send the maps to connecting clients if they don't have the map (trackmania maps are very small in file size). But WAIT, MS says "THIS USER CREATED MAP BUSINESS CAN'T BE SOOO". Well then, no one that has the choice of buying it on an alternative console, and is in their right fucking state of mind, is going to buy the XBLA version are they?

The moral of this story is I think you need to wait for the other services to truly start to warm up before you see major changes to what MS is currently doing. I do believe we're seeing the seeds of this as MS has allowed Capcom to go above the lame file size cap with SSF2HD and BC:R. No company wants their version of the game to be the "gimped" one if there is something they can do to help it, not even Microsoft.

Time will tell I suppose.
 
SapientWolf said:
If you think N+ is shit that's okay. It's your opinion and the game probably isn't for everybody. But I'm wondering why there are so much more negative comments about N+ in this thread than the official one. If the game is "shittier than a fat man's ass after he ate a gallon of beans" then why not warn people right after it was released? Why bottle up all those feelings until now?

The cynic in me thinks that people are having negative reactions to the comments and are taking their anger out on the game. If Michael Jackson announced to the world that he loves to diddle little boys would people say that Thriller was shit? They would, and, in my opinion, they would be wrong.

well personally i only got around to playing the demo a week or so ago. i honestly don't think N+ is shit either (it's just not something i would buy), but it isn't so great that it makes the rest of xbla seem like shit in comparison.
 

soldat7

Member
Slavik81 said:
Ok, fuck this.

Obviously nobody wants XBL to improve and most people feel that if developers have any problems with the service that they should just shut up and let both developers and consumers be content with mediocrity.

I'm done here. It's a waste of time to talk to you people. You don't even have an argument. You defend the status quo saying 'It's still better than [insert time or place here]' when I say 'It can still be much better!'. No, that's not a valid refute. You can't defend something by complaining about something else.

Seriously, guys. It's tremendously disappointing listening to these instant and thought-less reactions ad nauseam.

It's equally annoying hearing people say that XBLA is 100% crap. Even saying that there are only 5-6 decent games is pretty ignorant to be honest.
 

soldat7

Member
Meier said:
I wanna know how an awful game like Bliss Island is even made let alone released for XBLA. I love LA games, but offhand I can't think of more than 1 or 2 originals that are any good. All the games I love for it are ports or board games put online.

It's pretty sad in that regard.

Uh...maybe it's not for somebody that posts on GAF. Maybe it's for KIDS. Shame on MS for trying to broaden their audience.
 

HiVision

Member
Mario said:
Seems to me like people are expecting something which

a) is an open conduit for indie content, free from restrictions and bureaucracy

b) has a supply of steady, consistently high quality content


You can't have both of those things at the same time.

so true
 

Grecco

Member
So are the N+ developers. The unanmed sources from that Wii Ware thing that people bitched about? The ones that said XBLA is full of shit? or something to that extenct?


N+hate is hilarious btw
 

gkryhewy

Member
I like N+, but these two are acting like pretentious assholes in this interview. No good racing games? A lot of people like Mad Trax, and I'm sure the devs worked hard on it.

What I'm really afraid of is that they might go to a no-demo model!!

OMG, like, you know, both of their competitors.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
gkrykewy said:
I like N+, but these two are acting like pretentious assholes in this interview. No good racing games? A lot of people like Mad Trax, and I'm sure the devs worked hard on it.

What I'm really afraid of is that they might go to a no-demo model!!

OMG, like, you know, both of their competitors.
I wouldn't use Mad Trax to defend the state of racers on XBLA. Micro Machines v4/64 wipes the floor with that game, which makes me wonder what Codemasters is doing with the license these days.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Terrell said:
Spending over a month with a finished game in your pocket seems rather arbitrary to me, especially when there's no consistency to things with this wait, as demonstrated by this quote.

Because a lot of XBLA developers are inexperienced or don't have internal QA, many of them have trouble during the certification process when they can find themselves having to fix a large number of previously unknown issues. This is extremely challenging for MS to manage from a product scheduling point of view, and I suspect is the primary reason why they switched from announcing stuff relatively early to only announcing specific release date close to actual release.

When there is a lack of consistency in terms of developers being able to wrap up any given project, it creates a lot of uncertainty for MS about what product will be available for release and when. Because of this situation, it is expected that MS would keep some titles up their sleeve to ensure that they can actually release a game every week and can try to ensure when multiple games are released on the same day that they are complementary rather than competing.

3rd party publishers also do this at retail, delaying finished product to better align with external marketing events or not go up against competing products.

As I said above, I have not heard of any examples of games being held back more than a month which is a reasonable period to allow MS to shuffle things around a little. I believe the perception that MS sits on finished products for months is an exaggeration which is partly fueled by games taking longer to go through cert than people expect.


How does not providing sales data to know what is and isn't compatible with the userbase saving MS money, exactly? This sounds rather arbitrary, as well.

No platform manufacturer provides sales data to developers, online or otherwise. Its commercially sensitive information.

However, MS is quite happy to supply developers with high level market information on XBLA. You just have to ask.


So, MS allows some content to have free themes, and doesn't even give the option for other developers to use that same ability, even if they pay money out of their own pocket to do it like Rockstar probably did in this example? No, nothing arbitrary about that.

I have already explained this above. MS makes more revenue from retail titles, so they allow the release of some free content for retail titles. MS makes less money off XBLA titles, so put in place rules to monetise each title better. Its consistent.


So, as you can see here, HUGE double-standard... and money isn't even involved there.

That doesn't really sound like a double standard. All your menus are supposed to be localised. There is more leeway on ingame content, given that even Japanese games have english bits and pieces ingame.

To me the example cited sounds more like a miscommunication, or the developer clutching at straws for something to complain about.


So your assumption that all their gripes are justified because it saves MS money, when NONE of the things they complain about have a financial standpoint at all, is kind of silly.

You are putting words in my mouth here.


It IS arbitrary, they're giving different rules to different developers with no rhyme or reason to any of it.

Which rules are different for different developers? Everybody is treated to the same.

The only exception is that publishers bringing content to XBLA have a slightly different approval process in recognition of the fact they bring a lot more resource and publisher side QA to the process.

Just because no one has explained the reasons behind the rules doesn't mean there aren't reasons for them. Pretty much everything is designed to maintain minimum quality standards, have consistency across the portfolio, ensure games are released every week etc.
 

gkryhewy

Member
SapientWolf said:
I wouldn't use Mad Trax to defend the state of racers on XBLA. Micro Machines v4/64 wipes the floor with that game, which makes me wonder what Codemasters is doing with the license these days.
:lol :lol You're right, I meant GripShift.
 

Hunahan

Banned
Man, things are getting pretty heated in this thread. Strange.

Honestly, the thing this all reminds me of is when I took a brief job working for a music magazine in Boston. They'd send me out to do interviews and write articles on some of the local independent artists, and I used to come back and remark that there were only two types of interviews.

The first set would just blame everything. The local audience just didn't "understand" them, or their tastes were bad, or the conditions were shitty, or the press wasn't doing it's job. How much better things would be for them if they could relocate to NYC or the West Coast, or wherever. Anywhere but here. It's Boston. There aren't enough "_____"-genre nightclubs. There aren't enough "_____"-genre fans here. The pay-percentage of door-charge sucked. "I mean, it's different elsewhere, man! Seriously!"

"You have no idea how impossible it is to sell a record these days!" It was all about the sheer impossibility of making their little mac-pressed indy album sell in the sea of tens of thousands of discs in the local Tower Records. The big record labels were just putting them out of business, shutting them out. They couldn't get shelf space. They couldn't get ear-time. They didn't stand a chance. It was buried on a sea of shit. ALl people wanted was the Rolling Stones Greatest Hits! Life was unfair. On and on and on.

And, honestly, a lot of times the interview was really convincing even. They'd been saying these things for so long, building up their key phrases and points - believing it so earnestly that you began to really buy into their explanation. Maybe it was really unfair. Maybe we did need a change.

But, you know...there was another type of interview. And that other set of musicians, they would just talk to me about how much they loved to make music. How much they enjoyed the opportunity to perform. How this band they heard the other day was awesome, how the music scene in Boston was better than it had ever been. How they would give their left leg to work on a project with so-and-so. How much they enjoyed the classic, popular acts in their field. How much they respected them for what they had done. They'd pick up their guitar in the middle of the interview and just start playing it out. "Like THIS, man! Yeah! They were amazing!"

And, you know...what's funny is that when I look at all of those people now, the only ones I know of who have broken out, or "made it" to any real degree all belonged to the latter set.

So...this isn't the first time I've read an article like this about XBLA, but I never really have a sympathetic reaction anymore. Instead, all I hear is excuses.

"Oh man, you don't get it. All the games on XBLA are shit, and people are too stupid so they just end up buying them." Yeah, maybe. Or maybe those old games are selling well because they're really good. Maybe the reason that "classic games" have a market is because they are, you know....actually "classic."

"Oh man, if I was just on WiiWare, you'd see. There's so much less competition on WiiWare. If I was one of five different people on this service, we'd sell boatloads." Sure, "everyone makes money at launch." I've heard that before.

But here's the thing. Give it a year, and I bet we hear the same things from WiiWare. "Oh man, there's 100 different games, and they're all shit. Everyone's buying Mario 2 on the VC side, and my game isn't selling shit!" "Nintendo put out the fucking Pokemon Farmer game and all the morons are just buying that crap and ignoring my brilliance!"

Excuses, excuses. It will never change.

Maybe they deserve to sell more, maybe they don't. But, honestly, I don't really think that the "problems" they are identifying are what is really holding them back. We'll see.
 
SapientWolf said:
But I'm wondering why there are so much more negative comments about N+ in this thread than the official one. If the game is "shittier than a fat man's ass after he ate a gallon of beans" then why not warn people right after it was released? Why bottle up all those feelings until now?
First of all... I like N+ (I own it). That said, posting negative comments about games in their official threads can quickly result in you being labelled a troll and if not handled correctly often ends in account suicide. If you don't like a game on GAF you're generally better off keeping your mouth shut... in official threads at least.
 

Meier

Member
soldat7 said:
Uh...maybe it's not for somebody that posts on GAF. Maybe it's for KIDS. Shame on MS for trying to broaden their audience.

This is not a valid excuse. There are quite a number of kid-friendly XBLA games including an original title in the Shrek series along with another title that I can't recall off hand (a new Spongebob or something?). It was a dreadful decision to allow it to be released.. just total and absolute garbage similar to most XBLA titles sadly.
 
I've never really understood how people can't find even one XBLA title that they deem worthy of purchase. I own 21 XBLA games right now (admittedly a few of those were things my other half wanted) and spend far more time playing them than retail titles. Maybe it's partially because of the delivery format or that they don't want to try the demos (reviews are still few and far between on this sort of game). Perhaps there's a few genres that just aren't covered there yet too.

Also... why are people so quick to mention that there's a high percentage of poor games available? Have none of you ever seen the high percentage of shite that's available on the normal consoles at retail?
 

a.wd

Member
Hunahan said:
Man, things are getting pretty heated in this thread. Strange.

Honestly, the thing this all reminds me of is when I took a brief job working for a music magazine in Boston. They'd send me out to do interviews and write articles on some of the local independent artists, and I used to come back and remark that there were only two types of interviews.

The first set would just blame everything. The local audience just didn't "understand" them, or their tastes were bad, or the conditions were shitty, or the press wasn't doing it's job. How much better things would be for them if they could relocate to NYC or the West Coast, or wherever. Anywhere but here. It's Boston. There aren't enough "_____"-genre nightclubs. There aren't enough "_____"-genre fans here. The pay-percentage of door-charge sucked. "I mean, it's different elsewhere, man! Seriously!"

"You have no idea how impossible it is to sell a record these days!" It was all about the sheer impossibility of making their little mac-pressed indy album sell in the sea of tens of thousands of discs in the local Tower Records. The big record labels were just putting them out of business, shutting them out. They couldn't get shelf space. They couldn't get ear-time. They didn't stand a chance. It was buried on a sea of shit. ALl people wanted was the Rolling Stones Greatest Hits! Life was unfair. On and on and on.

And, honestly, a lot of times the interview was really convincing even. They'd been saying these things for so long, building up their key phrases and points - believing it so earnestly that you began to really buy into their explanation. Maybe it was really unfair. Maybe we did need a change.

But, you know...there was another type of interview. And that other set of musicians, they would just talk to me about how much they loved to make music. How much they enjoyed the opportunity to perform. How this band they heard the other day was awesome, how the music scene in Boston was better than it had ever been. How they would give their left leg to work on a project with so-and-so. How much they enjoyed the classic, popular acts in their field. How much they respected them for what they had done. They'd pick up their guitar in the middle of the interview and just start playing it out. "Like THIS, man! Yeah! They were amazing!"

And, you know...what's funny is that when I look at all of those people now, the only ones I know of who have broken out, or "made it" to any real degree all belonged to the latter set.

So...this isn't the first time I've read an article like this about XBLA, but I never really have a sympathetic reaction anymore. Instead, all I hear is excuses.

"Oh man, you don't get it. All the games on XBLA are shit, and people are too stupid so they just end up buying them." Yeah, maybe. Or maybe those old games are selling well because they're really good. Maybe the reason that "classic games" have a market is because they are, you know....actually "classic."

"Oh man, if I was just on WiiWare, you'd see. There's so much less competition on WiiWare. If I was one of five different people on this service, we'd sell boatloads." Sure, "everyone makes money at launch." I've heard that before.

But here's the thing. Give it a year, and I bet we hear the same things from WiiWare. "Oh man, there's 100 different games, and they're all shit. Everyone's buying Mario 2 on the VC side, and my game isn't selling shit!" "Nintendo put out the fucking Pokemon Farmer game and all the morons are just buying that crap and ignoring my brilliance!"

Excuses, excuses. It will never change.

Maybe they deserve to sell more, maybe they don't. But, honestly, I don't really think that the "problems" they are identifying are what is really holding them back. We'll see.

Nice post, I agree. (I do like N+ but then I also liked Menswear and the longpigs. And everyone knows the words to ice ice baby....):D
 
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