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[Insane Metal]

Mars scientists are wrestling with a problem. Ample evidence says ancient Mars was sometimes wet, with water flowing and pooling on the planet’s surface. Yet, the ancient sun was about one-third less warm and climate modelers struggle to produce scenarios that get the surface of Mars warm enough for keeping water unfrozen.

The same Martian bedrock in which Curiosity found sediments from an ancient lake where microbes could have thrived is the source of the evidence adding to the quandary about how such a lake could have existed. Curiosity detected no carbonate minerals in the samples of the bedrock it analyzed. The new analysis concludes that the dearth of carbonates in that bedrock means Mars' atmosphere when the lake existed -- about 3.5 billion years ago -- could not have held much carbon dioxide.

"We've been particularly struck with the absence of carbonate minerals in sedimentary rock the rover has examined," said Thomas Bristow of NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, California. "It would be really hard to get liquid water even if there were a hundred times more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than what the mineral evidence in the rock tells us." Bristow is the principal investigator for the Chemistry and Mineralogy (CheMin) instrument on Curiosity and lead author of the study being published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science.

The new analysis concludes that no more than a few tens of millibars of carbon dioxide could have been present when the lake existed, or it would have produced enough carbonate for Curiosity's CheMin to detect it. A millibar is one one-thousandth of sea-level air pressure on Earth. The current atmosphere of Mars is less than 10 millibars and about 95 percent carbon dioxide.

"This analysis fits with many theoretical studies that the surface of Mars, even that long ago, was not warm enough for water to be liquid," said Robert Haberle, a Mars-climate scientist at NASA Ames and a co-author of the paper. "It's really a puzzle to me."

Researchers are evaluating multiple ideas for how to reconcile the dilemma.

"Some think perhaps the lake wasn't an open body of liquid water. Maybe it was liquid covered with ice," Haberle said. "You could still get some sediments through to accumulate in the lakebed if the ice weren't too thick."

A drawback to that explanation is that the rover team has sought and not found in Gale Crater evidence that would be expected from ice-covered lakes, such as large and deep cracks called ice wedges, or "dropstones," which become embedded in soft lakebed sediments when they penetrate thinning ice.

If the lakes were not frozen, the puzzle is made more challenging by the new analysis of what the lack of a carbonate detection by Curiosity implies about the ancient Martian atmosphere.

"Curiosity's traverse through streambeds, deltas, and hundreds of vertical feet of mud deposited in ancient lakes calls out for a vigorous hydrological system supplying the water and sediment to create the rocks we're finding," said Curiosity Project Scientist Ashwin Vasavada of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California. "Carbon dioxide, mixed with other gases like hydrogen, has been the leading candidate for the warming influence needed for such a system. This surprising result would seem to take it out of the running."

When two lines of scientific evidence appear irreconcilable, the scene may be set for an advance in understanding why they are not. The Curiosity mission is continuing to investigate ancient environmental conditions on Mars. It is managed by JPL, a division of Caltech in Pasadena, for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Curiosity and other Mars science missions are a key part of NASA's Journey to Mars, building on decades of robotic exploration to send humans to the Red Planet in the 2030s. For more about Curiosity, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-curiosity-rover-sharpens-paradox-of-ancient-mars

 

[sphagnum]

Nanomachines.

 

[Hickbilly Deluxe]

So, the evidence of water is there, but not the evidence that there were conditions for water. Well that's quite the mystery.

Must be aliens.

 

[lastplayed]

Maybe an ancient attempt at terraforming.

 

[DopeToast]

 

[Forerunner]

 

[lastplayed]

 

[Bollocks]

checkmate atheists

 

[spekkeh]

It's kind of tales from my ass, but every time I read about historic climate data it seems more logical to me that carbon dioxide follows warming instead of the other way around.

 

[BobTheFork]

They eliminated the Martian EPA.

Mars is looking like the future Earth right now.

 

[slit]

Lets get some actual humans there to take a closer look around.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Maybe it is quantum water?

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

This is pretty damn interesting. If none of the science lines up yet we still have evidence of actual flows of water, not just some scraps of water ice, then what even could be the solution?

Was it definitely water that flowed and not some other liquid? Could Mars have came to our system as a wandering planet ejected from the goldilocks zone of its origin system?

I don't usually take much interest in a lot of the Mars discoveries but this sure is an interesting mystery.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

What about that methane thing

 

[Jobbs]

 

[Nostremitus]

I'm pretty sure the atmosphere was quite different before Olympus Mons exploded and destroyed it...

To give you an idea of how much liquid iron was involved in this event, please read this excerpt from Space.com.

Today, most scientists think that the formation of the Tharsis region may have helped the canyon to form. The Tharsis region contains several large volcanoes that dwarf those found on Earth, including Olympus Mons, the largest volcano in the solar system.

As molten rock pushed through the volcanic region to form the monstrous volcanoes 3.5 billion years ago, the crust heaved upward. The strain cracked the crust, causing large faults and fractures across the planet's surface. Such fractures, growing over time, birthed the enormous canyon system.

The spreading cracks caused the ground to sink and opened an escape for subsurface water. The upward rushing liquid broke down the edges of the fractures, enlarging them and washing away more of the ground while flowing past

The canyon being referenced is Valles Merineris. If it were on Earth it would stretch from Los Angeles to the Atlantic Ocean. Olympus Mons exploding would have then ejected trillions of tons of iron into the atmosphere, this iron dust ate the oxygen in the air resulting in iron oxide (rust) covering the planet and turning it red.

We really have no idea what the atmosphere was like before Olympus Mons other than it had oxygen. Mar's loses somewhere around 100grams (about 1/4 lbs) of it's atmosphere every second as it's stripped away by solar winds. Theoretically, this has been happening ever since Olympus Mons exploded.

 

[Insane Metal]

I'm pretty sure the atmosphere was quite different before Olympus Mons exploded and destroyed it...

To give you an idea of how much liquid iron was involved in this event, please read this excerpt from Space.com.



The canyon being referenced is Valles Merineris. If it were on Earth it would stretch from Los Angeles to the Atlantic Ocean. Olympus Mons exploding would have then ejected trillions of tons of iron into the atmosphere, this iron dust ate the oxygen in the air resulting in iron oxide (rust) covering the planet and turning it red.

We really have no idea what the atmosphere was like before Olympus Mons other than it had oxygen. Mar's loses somewhere around 100grams (about 1/4 lbs) of it's atmosphere every second. Theoretically, this has been happening since Olympus Mons destroyed the oxone layer.

I had no idea about this tbh, you have a link to school me?

 

[commedieu]

This is pretty damn interesting. If none of the science lines up yet we still have evidence of actual flows of water, not just some scraps of water ice, then what even could be the solution?

Was it definitely water that flowed and not some other liquid? Could Mars have came to our system as a wandering planet ejected from the goldilocks zone of its origin system?

I don't usually take much interest in a lot of the Mars discoveries but this sure is an interesting mystery.

Well. The liquid water is a fact. H2o.

I'm with you though. Mars could have slid orbits or have been bumped by the gravity of a massive body..

Or.. there was another factor that contributed to the liquid water, perhaps another chemical compound. Or Mars had a way different atmosphere than we know of after all this time.

Maybe it even had a very active core that was spurting out something.

I love this shit. Just makes you greatful that aliens picked earth to seed, and keep stable.

But the water as we know of water is there. Just need to science it up.


https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-confirms-evidence-that-liquid-water-flows-on-today-s-mars

Crazy. There's still water flowing today with its atmosphere.

 

[Nostremitus]

I had no idea about this tbh, you have a link to school me?

Oxygen is required to make iron oxide.

Mars is red because it is covered in iron bonded to oxygen. That's two iron atoms and three oxygen atoms bonded together. Iron(III) or (Fe2O3)

Here's a great interview with Planetary Chemist and Oxford University Professor Bernard Wood about it.

http://www.voanews.com/a/2276357.html

Now we know that there's still water churning out oxygen and hydrogen on Mars, but the atmosphere is much MUCH thinner than it was billions of years ago.

Hell, there may not have been a lot of oxygen for very long, though...

The eruption of Olympus Mons and the formation of Valles Merineris ( and the resulting groundwater being exposed to solar radiation) could have just happened to create the perfect storm of volcanic ash and water vapor being ripped apart in the atmosphere resulting in the iron particles in the volcanic fallout bonding to oxygen being ripped out of the water forming an iron oxide snow covering the planet all at once...

We really just don't know.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

If Mars was so volcanically active at the time who's to say the source of heat wasn't geothermal?

 

[Nostremitus]

Could the rogue planet that crashed into the original Earth and spawned our current Earth and the Moon have a altered Mars' orbit?

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Well. The liquid water is a fact. H2o.

I'm with you though. Mars could have slid orbits or have been bumped by the gravity of a massive body..

Or.. there was another factor that contributed to the liquid water, perhaps another chemical compound. Or Mars had a way different atmosphere than we know of after all this time.

Maybe it even had a very active core that was spurting out something.

I love this shit. Just makes you greatful that aliens picked earth to seed, and keep stable.

But the water as we know of water is there. Just need to science it up.


https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-confirms-evidence-that-liquid-water-flows-on-today-s-mars

Crazy. There's still water flowing today with its atmosphere.

Speaking of it possibly having a very different atmosphere actually, I thought the atmosphere had supposedly been stripped away by solar winds over the eons?

Amazing that it appears to even still be happening though given just how thin the atmosphere is at this point.

 

[Nostremitus]

Speaking of it possibly having a very different atmosphere actually, I thought the atmosphere had supposedly been stripped away by solar winds over the eons?

Amazing that it appears to even still be happening though given just how thin the atmosphere is at this point.

It currently loses about a quarter pound (100 grams) every second.

 

[M3d10n]

That ain't water, son...

 

[Xe4]

I wonder if it is possible that other greenhouse gasses contributed to warming the planet, such as Water Vapor, Methane, Ozone, etc. combine those with CO2 and its entirely possible there was water flows in the summer near the equator. Even today, there is liquid water on the surface, though likely in much smaller concentrations than back then.

 

[sturmdogg]

Paging Dr. Radcliffe, the Framework needs some adjustments.

 

[Auto-Reply]

Maybe the theory about how the sun works/ages needs to be adjusted?

 

[Vector]

They can't even explain the presence of guinea pigs and iguanas on Mars.

What other secrets await us on the red planet?

 

[kess]

It currently loses about a quarter pound (100 grams) every second.

Sadly, Mars does not have a strong magnetic field, and plate techtonics are negliable, which inhibits the formation of a deep carbon cycle. That's why Venus and Mars have lost most of their water and free oxygen and have proportionally large carbon dioxide atmospheres.

 

[ExVicis]

Doesn't this same paradox apply to Earth though? I don't think this paradox is new, I remember hearing about this paradox in reference to Earth and how it's managed to have water for millions of years a while.

 

[Nostremitus]

Sadly, Mars does not have a strong magnetic field, and plate techtonics are negliable, which inhibits the formation of a deep carbon cycle. That's why Venus and Mars have lost most of their water and free oxygen and have proportionally large carbon dioxide atmospheres.

I can't help but wonder if a near miss of a rogue planet destroyed Mars... As in pulled everything to one side, cause Olympus mons to explode and the planet's magna to shift causing the tectonic collapse that created Valles Merineris, and actually shifted the planets core and slowed it's rotation, destrying the magnetosphere...

Theories suggest a rogue planet struck Earth and created the Moon. It would have been roughly Martian in size... How much of an effect would such a body's gravity have on our Solar System as it passed through?

 

[Insane Metal]

Doesn't this same paradox apply to Earth though? I don't think this paradox is new, I remember hearing about this paradox in reference to Earth and how it's managed to have water for millions of years a while.

Never heard of this.

Edit: found it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox

That's crazy. If we don't even know how this was possible in our home planet, there's little hope to understand and explain how this was possible on another, farther than earth planet.

 

[All Possible Ways]

Never heard of this.

Edit: found it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox

That's crazy. If we don't even know how this was possible in our home planet, there's little hope to understand and explain how this was possible on another, farther than earth planet.

For Earth, the leading explanation seems to be more greenhouse gases. Since they tried it for Mars and it doesn't hold up, the simplest explanation would probably be that the Sun was not as faint as previously thought, since that would solve the issue for both planets at once. One way to accomplish this would be if the Sun were a bit more massive at that epoch since the luminosity scales strongly with the mass, then it would have to lose mass at a higher rate than expected to match up with the mass today. Observations of other stars match usual stellar evolution theory quite well, though, so it is not trivial to cook up an explanation.

 

[Epcott]

I wish they would just land a rover on the northern pole already and research the ice there.

 

[kirblar]

Wasn't Mars warmer at some point? (Maybe the core was more active/hotter?)

 

[Insane Metal]

For Earth, the leading explanation seems to be more greenhouse gases. Since they tried it for Mars and it doesn't hold up, the simplest explanation would probably be that the Sun was not as faint as previously thought, since that would solve the issue for both planets at once. One way to accomplish this would be if the Sun were a bit more massive at that epoch since the luminosity scales strongly with the mass, then it would have to lose mass at a higher rate than expected to match up with the mass today. Observations of other stars match usual stellar evolution theory quite well, though, so it is not trivial to cook up an explanation.

Yes, it's really complicated. The sun being more massive or more active fits the bill for both planets, but evidence does not suggest such a thing unfortunately.

I was reading about the proposed theories and it's just so crazy, none of them have actual irrefutable evidence, unfortunately. And after some deep research most of them end up not being possible.

God I love nature, science, I love these mysteries!

I wish they would just land a rover on the northern pole already and research the ice there.

That ice is known to be made of a lot of dried ice and not water ice, so there's little chance there's anything other than... well, ice, there.