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[Salvor.Hardin]

Couple of notes:
The Americans did not "radicalize" the Mujahideen.
The Taliban are not identical to the various Mujahideen groups that fought the Soviets. The Taliban are a particular Pashtun Sunni Islam movement primarily funded and created by the ISI, Pakistan's equivalent of the CIA, because of Pakistan's long-term goal of creating "strategic depth" in Afghanistan, wherein they would ensure friendly borders on one of their two major fronts by controlling the government in Kabul. You could say the Americans turned a blind eye to this, and they did, but...

Start with incorrect facts, arrive at incorrect conclusion.

Jesus Christ. al-Qaeda was a spin-off of the mujahideen. Operation Cyclone was created by the CIA and managed by the ISI. The funds were used to not only buy weaponry, but to create madrassas in Afghanistan to promote the context of jihad against the communists.

pretentious hemingway avatar: Check!
pretentious asamov reference in name: Check!
debates like an 18 year old: Check!
people on gaf still think its worth arguing with this guy: Check!

You do realize what pretentious means right? Or do you automatically get aggressive at the sight of any black and white picture and science fiction reference? GAF must drive you bonkers.

I find it hard to believe that you give a single damn about Afghan casualties or the state of the country when we leave it.

I'm half Afghan.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Here is a guy who thinks the doctor was a covert operator:

http://my.firedoglake.com/jpsottile...or-rescued-by-seal-team-six-over-the-weekend/

He makes some good points, would be interesting if media picks this up to either confirm or disprove this story. But maybe it's just a crazy conspiracy theory.

 

[Kenka]

A man died.

I invite everyone in limiting their comments and think of the poor soul who fell in war far from his home.
Silence and empathy are the best answers to the OP. And if you can do more, come with remarks/ideas/arguments that wouldn't hurt the poster right after you.

RIP soldier.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Some of you need to think about the company you keep when you grind your axe around a soldier's death.

 

[polyh3dron]

I wonder how many Afghanis he killed. Ridiculous war.

If you said this about the Iraq war I'd see where you're coming from. But the Afghanistan war was justified. Bush kind of fucked it up by getting bored of it while he played with his newer and shinier toy (Iraq), but our reasons for going into Afghanistan were warranted.

 

[Wazzim]

This same "fool" would fight and die for you at your doorstep because it is his duty.

lol no.

 

[ReadingRambo]

lol no.

Not familiar with the SEALs I take it.

 

[Valnen]

If me and a group of pals blow up the Eiffel Tower does France have the right to invade and wage war on the US?

if doing so killed a lot of people, definitely.

 

[YoungHav]

LOL disagree w/Salvor fine, but I dunno how ya'll made up that he's feigning for the plight of Afghans. People usually have compassion for killed innocents during war, who really fakes that?

RIP to this soldier, lets get the hell out already.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

LOL disagree w/Salvor fine, but I dunno how ya'll made up that he's feigning for the plight of Afghans. People usually have compassion for killed innocents during war, who really fakes that?

RIP to this soldier, lets get the hell out already.

And I'm sure all of us have compassion for the innocents killed, but as I stated before, the Taliban should have blame as well for hiding and stashing weapons and bombs within a bunch of innocent people.

 

[that1dude24]

this thread is a mess. and no, it's not hardin doing the damage.

like he said, engage him in debate. counter his points. fuck, make some worthwhile posts and salient points. equating him to a terrorist sympathizer, calling him garbage, telling him he's shitting up the thread really only make you seem deafened by the war drums.

 

[Codeblue]

Jesus Christ. al-Qaeda was a spin-off of the mujahideen. Operation Cyclone was created by the CIA and managed by the ISI. The funds were used to not only buy weaponry, but to create madrassas in Afghanistan to promote the context of jihad against the communists.

Out of curiousity, why do you call it a "madrassa"? You realize that it is literally the Arabic word for a school (not an Islamic school or anything just a normal school), right?

 

[YoungHav]

I honestly do not feel any safer today as an American than I did on September 12th 2001. The US has gone HAM in the Middle East this past decade and I think we've made terror recruitment easier over there.

Not familiar with the SEALs I take it.

If a good citizen lives in a gang infested neighborhood can he call the SEALS to his doorstep to rid the neighborhood of gangster scum? The "die for you at the doorstep" comment was a bit hyperbolic, no?

And I'm sure all of us have compassion for the innocents killed, but as I stated before, the Taliban should have blame as well for hiding and stashing weapons and bombs within a bunch of innocent people.

I agree.

 

[DY_nasty]

this thread is a mess. and no, it's not hardin doing the damage.

like he said, engage him in debate. counter his points. fuck, make some worthwhile posts and salient points. equating him to a terrorist sympathizer, calling him garbage, telling him he's shitting up the thread really only makes you seem like you're deafened by the war drums.

Who called him a terrorist sympathizer?

People don't want to argue with him because he's not even talking the event and is running off soapbox talking points like he has a blog of breathtaking new ideas.

 

[ReadingRambo]

If a good citizen lives in a gang infested neighborhood can he call the SEALS to his doorstep to rid the neighborhood of gangster scum? The "die for you at the doorstep" comment was a bit hyperbolic, no?

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

 

[that1dude24]

Who called him a terrorist sympathizer?

People don't want to argue with him because he's not even talking the event and is running off soapbox talking points like he has a blog of breathtaking new ideas.

equated, and a couple posts above you

Some of you need to think about the company you keep when you grind your axe around a soldier's death.

how is he not "talking the event"? the afghanistan war directly relates to the seal's death, and having common talking points doesn't invalidate their salience. if you (or others) want to show their naivete or whatever other description you feel, counter it with points of your own. it certainly isn't convincing to me, and i'd wager a good portion of those viewing this thread, to call him names and state that he shouldn't discuss matters related to the topic.

 

[ReadingRambo]

equated, and a couple posts above you


how is he not "talking the event"? the afghanistan war directly relates to the seal's death, and having common talking points doesn't invalidate their salience. if you (or others) want to show their naivete or whatever other description you feel, counter it with points of your own. it certainly isn't convincing to me, and i'd wager a good portion of those viewing this thread, to call him names and state that he shouldn't discuss matters related to the topic.

Hey we get it you are white-knighting for debates everywhere. What some in here are saying is that there is a time and a place, and this probably isn't it. The thread is about a SEAL team member dying while saving a non-profit Doctor. That's admirable. No need to shit up the thread with soapboxes.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

equated, and a couple posts above you


how is he not "talking the event"? the afghanistan war directly relates to the seal's death, and having common talking points doesn't invalidate their salience. if you (or others) want to show their naivete or whatever other description you feel, counter it with points of your own. it certainly isn't convincing to me, and i'd wager a good portion of those viewing this thread, to call him names and state that he shouldn't discuss matters related to the topic.

There's nothing wrong about talking about the war, nor is there anything wrong with disagreeing with it, people are entitled to their own opinions.

But when you start out the thread of a dead soldier by asking 'how many Afghanis did he kill' is a little bit insensitive. Now if you want to say 'how many soldiers have killed Afghanis' then I can see that as being okay, but don't single out the SEAL.

 

[that1dude24]

Hey we get it you are white-knighting for debates everywhere. What some in here are saying is that there is a time and a place, and this probably isn't it. The thread is about a SEAL team member dying while saving a non-profit Doctor. That's admirable. No need to shit up the thread with soapboxes.

why is this not "the time and place"? this isn't a funeral, it's a collection of messages on a message board.

if you don't want to engage him, don't. post "rip" or something, talk in roundabouts about how admirable the actions he displayed are, post whatever you feel. he's not dictatorially making the thread about the war.

There's nothing wrong about talking about the war, nor is there anything wrong with disagreeing with it, people are entitled to their own opinions.

But when you start out the thread of a dead soldier by asking 'how many Afghanis did he kill' is a little bit insensitive. Now if you want to say 'how many soldiers have killed Afghanis' then I can see that as being okay, but don't single out the SEAL.

it certainly is insensitive. does it make the point any less valid? i think (and i'm posting for him, so i might have this wrong) that he doesn't feel that his actions are admirable simply because he rescued a doctor.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Can he just talk for himself from now on?

 

[FieryBalrog]

Jesus Christ. al-Qaeda was a spin-off of the mujahideen. Operation Cyclone was created by the CIA and managed by the ISI.

Operation Cyclone is not the creation of the Taliban. The creation of the Taliban in the vacuum following Najibullah's downfall is the responsibility of the ISI. This is well documented by American and Indian intelligence services, and even Musharraf admitted as much later on. I'm Indian by the way, specifically Bengali, and thanks to the '71 war I know well American and Pakistani perfidy going hand in hand, but the Americans did not create the Taliban.

The funds were used to not only buy weaponry, but to create madrassas in Afghanistan to promote the context of jihad against the communists.

Saying the Americans radicalized the Mujahideen is incorrect. The primary source of Sunni radicalization in the past several decades is Saudi oil wealth. This includes Afghanistan. At most you can say the CIA, through the ISI, encouraged the radicalization, which the ISI was very eager to do. Whether the CIA had funded the Mujahideen or not, they were already growing more radicalized, especially in response to the Soviet invasion and the puppet communist regime they propped up.

does it make the point any less valid?

There was a point? What was it, to be oh-so-clever and rebellious?

 

[Vilix]

My thoughts and prayers go out to his family for their loss.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Operation Cyclone is not the creation of the Taliban. The creation of the Taliban in the vacuum following Najibullah's downfall is the responsibility of the ISI. This is well documented by American and Indian intelligence services, and even Musharraf admitted as much later on. I'm Indian by the way, specifically Bengali, and thanks to the '71 war I know well American and Pakistani perfidy going hand in hand, but the Americans did not create the Taliban.

I was discussing al-Qaeda, and I stated as much.

Saying the Americans radicalized the Mujahideen is incorrect. The primary source of Sunni radicalization in the past several decades is Saudi oil wealth. This includes Afghanistan. Whether the CIA had funded the Mujahideen or not, they were already growing more radicalized, especially in response to the Soviet invasion and the puppet communist regime they propped up.

If funding madrassas in Afghanistan to strengthen jihadi sentiment isn't the radicalization of modern Afghanistan, I don't know what is.

You're right about the Saudi Wahabi influence though.

 

[DY_nasty]

equated, and a couple posts above you


how is he not "talking the event"? the afghanistan war directly relates to the seal's death, and having common talking points doesn't invalidate their salience. if you (or others) want to show their naivete or whatever other description you feel, counter it with points of your own. it certainly isn't convincing to me, and i'd wager a good portion of those viewing this thread, to call him names and state that he shouldn't discuss matters related to the topic.

Christ

The soldier didn't die taking a Taliban recruiting station, he died rescuing a non-profit doctor. This type of mission occurs around the globe vs all kinds of groups. From South America to the Philippines, this is a near perpetual task that special forces teams take on.

 

[Jackpot]

My thoughts and prayers go out to his family for their loss.

Without scrolling up can you remember his name?

 

[xbhaskarx]

fools?
Are you an American?

I noticed that Salvor.Hardin didn't respond to this, so I'll just mention that while I don't know his nationality, he recently said that he currently lives in Pakistan.

Edit:

I'm half Afghan.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

If me and a group of pals blow up the Eiffel Tower does France have the right to invade and wage war on the US?

If the US knows where you are and refuse to give you up, yes. It's offering support for their actions by defending them.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Without scrolling up can you remember his name?

Stay classy Gaf. Out of this thread.

 

[Dyno]

http://www.amazon.ca/dp/0143034669/

Ghost Wars by Steve Coll covers, in exhausting detail, the story of modern Afghanistan. It starts with the plan to trap the Soviets in a quagmire by arming Afghans, and it goes through every day of engagment until Sept 10, 2001. It involves all aspects the the region from Saudi charities to Spetsnaz to Stinger Missiles.

It should be read if you want to understand the cause and effects of the region. There have been some errors here in this thread that I don't want to correct.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

I noticed that Salvor.Hardin didn't respond to this, so I'll just mention that while I don't know his nationality, he recently said that he currently lives in Pakistan.

Edit:

Strange. Not sure why it matters so much whether I'm American or not. In any case, I was brought up in the States, lived in Scotland, and recently moved to Pakistan to work in the field of development economics.

 

[Tallshortman]

LOL disagree w/Salvor fine, but I dunno how ya'll made up that he's feigning for the plight of Afghans. People usually have compassion for killed innocents during war, who really fakes that?

RIP to this soldier, lets get the hell out already.

I don't understand how you are all in for the plight of the afghans and then seemingly celebrate the death of a soldier that likely killed only afghans who were militants. He puts no context and also makes out the afghans who this person killed to be saints regardless of who they were. Salvor, come at me with your justifications bro.

 

[joedan]

Didn't the US harbour terrorists from Northern Ireland as well as some who blew up a Cuban plane or something like that?

 

[Igo]

Here is a guy who thinks the doctor was a covert operator:

http://my.firedoglake.com/jpsottile...or-rescued-by-seal-team-six-over-the-weekend/

He makes some good points, would be interesting if media picks this up to either confirm or disprove this story. But maybe it's just a crazy conspiracy theory.

My first thought was CIA, actually, and making that assumption isn't crazy at all, at this point. I'm pretty sure that the female hotage the Seals accidentally killed when they threw a grenade in her room was confirmed intelligence a while back, and there are enough similarities with this guy that make you question it.

I wouldn't expect any mainstream media to look into it at all, though. Not if they want to keep their military access.

 

[YoungHav]

If the US knows where you are and refuse to give you up, yes. It's offering support for their actions by defending them.

The Taliban didn't refuse IIRC, they just wanted proof Osama did it before handing him over. Bush said fuck that and invaded. The US apparently solved who was behind 9/11 within hours but still can't figure out who killed Jon Benet Ramsey. Go figure.