Looks like after Volca FM, Korg gives us a separate kick synth this time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgs7p17ElOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgs7p17ElOY
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NEOGAF's Official Music Production Thread: calling all producers
- Thread starter Tr4nce
- Start date
thezerofire
Banned
Thinking about trading my Volca Beats and Bass in for one. Pretty much the only thing I use the Beats for is the kick anyway, and I have a JP-08 I like better for bass than the Volca.
Hi all,
I am coming from a tracker background (Octamed > FT2 > Madtracker and now Renoise), so sequencing vertical feels 'natural' to me. Still, I want to explore some other DAW's just to broaden my horizon. I do prefer if some step sequencing is available, so I can easily edit breakbeat-sequences.
I already tried Ableton but I simply cannot get the hang of 'scenes' and how to effectively use them in the sequence of a track. So I was looking around for another DAW and have been thinking about Presonus Studio One and Reaper. I don't like FL Studio all that much and don't like Cubase that much either.
Anybody here have any recommendations for a good DAW that is easy to get the hang of if you come from a tracker-background? Maybe something that isn't quite popular like the ones already mentioned in my post? I do use some VST's and also like to incorporate some hardware with it, especially my CS1X-synth and a SU-10 sampler. Also, I'd love software that is perfectly suited to use in a live setting, although that is not necesary perse.
I am coming from a tracker background (Octamed > FT2 > Madtracker and now Renoise), so sequencing vertical feels 'natural' to me. Still, I want to explore some other DAW's just to broaden my horizon. I do prefer if some step sequencing is available, so I can easily edit breakbeat-sequences.
I already tried Ableton but I simply cannot get the hang of 'scenes' and how to effectively use them in the sequence of a track. So I was looking around for another DAW and have been thinking about Presonus Studio One and Reaper. I don't like FL Studio all that much and don't like Cubase that much either.
Anybody here have any recommendations for a good DAW that is easy to get the hang of if you come from a tracker-background? Maybe something that isn't quite popular like the ones already mentioned in my post? I do use some VST's and also like to incorporate some hardware with it, especially my CS1X-synth and a SU-10 sampler. Also, I'd love software that is perfectly suited to use in a live setting, although that is not necesary perse.
I don't think there's really anything out there for your specific requirements. Most DAWs at this point have converged around very similar featuresets and interfaces. I have a tracker background as well, but switched to FL in 2001 and just stuck with that ever since. I think the piano roll is the best and most flexible in the industry by a huge margin and allows me to get things done so much faster.
Same here! But FT2 and Jeskola Buzz mainly.
Ultimately you just have to pick a program and go with it, I think. I went with Reaper because it was inexpensive and customizable.
Teknopathetic
Member
Jeskola Buzz is awesome and what I started with many moons ago, but I can't imagine going from Renoise to Buzz. I think the closest thing to working in Renoise (besides other trackers, of course) would be hardware sequencers or hardware-hybrid sequencers like Maschine.
Funny you mention that, because I have been feeling at home with hardware sequencers quite a bit. I have a Roland MC-300 myself, which is a sequencer that works like a MIDI 4-track recorder and is really awesome, but dated too. Before you can use it you have to load the supplied firmware-disk which can be quite annoying
I also have been looking at MPC's which I really love (the pad's AKAI produces are the best in the industry to me), but because I like tight miniscule editing of my beats and sequences, I'm not sure a hardware sequencer would be the way to go.
However, is there are hardware sequencers people can recommend, I'm all ears
Teknopathetic
Member
Maschine has limitations that make me averse to recommending it to someone looking for a replacement to a traditional DAW. However, for someone who is comfortable with the limitations of a tracker and other pattern-based workflows, I think it's a great choice. Especially if you have an interest in using it live.
How do you feel a hardware sequencer would hamper your editing of beats/sequences? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just asking for some clarification as that might still be the case even with Maschine.
How do you feel a hardware sequencer would hamper your editing of beats/sequences? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just asking for some clarification as that might still be the case even with Maschine.
Well, being used to trackers, you could edit sequences in a visual way, like literally seeing and hearing the flow of the music and edit where it was necesary. With hardware sequencers it always feels really time consuming to micro-edit tracks.
For example, the MC-300 supports micro-editing (Roland calls it 'microscope editing', lol), but it's all based on time, meaning you're busy editing sets of numbers. That's not a problem unless you have a whole track of beats where every pattern has a unique development of the break you are using.
It's the same with MPC's, where the focus is more on making music in a physical way instead of giving you a set of tools that makes it really easy to edit your music fast without compromise for details.
Not sure if I make sense...
For example, the MC-300 supports micro-editing (Roland calls it 'microscope editing', lol), but it's all based on time, meaning you're busy editing sets of numbers. That's not a problem unless you have a whole track of beats where every pattern has a unique development of the break you are using.
It's the same with MPC's, where the focus is more on making music in a physical way instead of giving you a set of tools that makes it really easy to edit your music fast without compromise for details.
Not sure if I make sense...
Teknopathetic
Member
I understand what you mean, editing a sequence in a tracker is far faster than pretty much every other sequencer paradigm. Editing a sequence on the Maschine hardware can run in to the same pitfalls as editing on any other kind of hardware sequencer, it has some tools like nudging and step sequencing with visual representation of the notes both on the hardware and on your computer screen. You can also edit from the software which is much more like editing midi in Reaper/Cubase/Logic, et al.
Still not as fast as navigating and editing in a tracker.
Still not as fast as navigating and editing in a tracker.
A lot of my workflow in FLStudio is basically old tracker tricks and techniques which I carried over as best as I could. Like the way I do vibrato with selective automation blocks programmed in the playlist is probably closer to to the tracker way of programming in the hex values in the effects row, compared to how a modern DAW usually expects you to do it by doing it live with a MIDI modwheel.
ElectricThunder
Member
I also can't think of anything specific as per the rest of the better informed folks around here.
But hey, if poking around the hinterlands where parts of that might somehow do something for ya works...then maybe:
http://www.warmplace.ru/soft/sunvox/
http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/ Made by one of the crazier old tracker folks~
I spent like 6 hours listening to shortwave radio yesterday, put some of the more interestin recordings here:
https://sadsic.bandcamp.com/album/adventures-in-shortwave
would be good for sampling
https://sadsic.bandcamp.com/album/adventures-in-shortwave
would be good for sampling
InaudibleWhispa
Member
These are awesome. They would've been a perfect fit for a bunch of cold-war inspired music I made last year featuring creepy audio stuff like number stations and nuclear public service announcements. I'll definitely drop a few quid if I use them in future.
I might just use this as well... Thanks for sharing!
csquared587
Member
Man, I am so happy I found this thread. I am going to come back in and check a lot of Gaffer's music soon as I get off of work today.
Anyway, I mainly like to do hip hop production, but I dip my toes in other genres such as synthwave at times. This is my newest instrumental, what do you guys think? Particularly about the mix, I've been reading up a ton on mixing.
https://soundcloud.com/hand5onmusic/extra-life
Anyway, I mainly like to do hip hop production, but I dip my toes in other genres such as synthwave at times. This is my newest instrumental, what do you guys think? Particularly about the mix, I've been reading up a ton on mixing.
https://soundcloud.com/hand5onmusic/extra-life
InaudibleWhispa
Member
This is really nice. Very clean mix, good control of the bass and highs. Love the synths and arps. The kick sounds a little loud on my speakers, but it sounds fine on my headphones.
Yeah it sounds well mixed, just the kick is reeeeally loud
csquared587
Member
Thanks for the listens and mix feedback, much appreciated. I think I will go in and turn down that kick a bit, I have gotten that comment the most in regards to the mix. You guys think its too loud in comparison to other hip hop tracks?
How do you start getting into mixing, especially getting the right mix that suits your style and the sound you prefer yourself? Tbh, it's hard to decide upon a mix if everything 'sounds good to me', like I am woth mixing. Are there any good tutorials out there that cover the basics of what you defenitely need to now about mixing?
Thanks, definitely gonna try this out!
Also, I just started giving Ableton a second chance. Got a second monitor for it and also got a Korg Nano Kontrol 2 and a Arturia MiniLab, because my old Nektar MIDI-keyboard had keys hanging
Thanks, definitely gonna try this out!
Also, I just started giving Ableton a second chance. Got a second monitor for it and also got a Korg Nano Kontrol 2 and a Arturia MiniLab, because my old Nektar MIDI-keyboard had keys hanging
InaudibleWhispa
Member
It depends. A lot of hip-hop focuses on the low-end, so a very loud kick complements the bass (as long as its not muddy which your track isn't). It gives punch to the 808's/subs. Your track has a lot of bright synths so the kick cuts through them and stands out more. Getting the volume of the kick and snare just right is a frequent struggle for me.
It's the top end of the kick that's the problem. The kick should be the heaviest thing in this context, but not so in your face like a snare drum. I usually solve this problem by processing kicks in parallel - one kick track just for the upper frequencies placed lower in the mix, and one kick track for the low frequencies that keeps the thump prominent. I do the same with basslines.
Study the style of music you want to make as it's made by professionals and try to mimic what they've done.
First thing is to develop an ear for arrangement, instrument selection, and layering. Try to have every instrument fill a specific role in the audible spectrum and minimize redundancies - for instance, don't use 808s with a long decay if you're also playing a bassline with sustained notes, and don't play too many instruments in the same octave range. If each instrument is already in it's own unique space, you have less work to do in the mix process. This becomes common sense with time and practice.
Work on learning frequency separation. Get used to working subtractively; instead of boosting the thing you want more of, make a habit of removing stuff you don't need to make the stuff you want more audible. Like instead of turning your kick up, turn everything else down so the kick sounds louder relative to everything else. Sound needs energy like anything else, so don't let less relevant frequencies steal too much energy from the frequencies that need it most. For gain staging purposes it's also just good practice to increase signal levels as little as possible going into your master output because even though your individual tracks have lots of headroom, your master output is a sum of all the individual signals in your mix and once that space on the master track is gone, it's gone for good. Turning the master fader down won't change that.
Learn when to pan and when not to pan, when to make things narrow and when to go wide. Low frequency information (kicks, bass) gets lost in the sides, so keep that stuff narrow and dead center. High frequency information (lead melodies, vocals) sounds nice wide and in the sides.
Keep in mind that while there are conventions within any style of music, the choices you make are mostly a matter of personal taste. I've been doing it a long time, so I've come to a place where the mixing and writing process are completely intertwined. As I'm writing and recording, I'm designing every sound along the way so that it's place in the mix already coincides with it's place in the arrangement. By the time a thing is fully written and arranged, I'm mostly just nudging faders up and down, only making very small tweaks to EQ and compression settings and stuff like that here and there. It takes a little while before you can really develop that kind of forethought, but it's doable if you're the kind of artist who has to do everything on their own.
YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. There's a tutorial for everything on YouTube, and seeing and hearing it done by someone else makes most things easier to understand. Problem is sorting out who actually knows what they're talking about. Here's some channels I like:
ADSR Music Production Tutorials
Bassy Bob Brockmann
MixWithTheMASTERS
Modern Mixing
Point Blank Music School
Pro Studio Live
Produce Like A Pro
Pulsating Waves
recordingrevolution
Rob Williams
The Pro Audio Files
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Yes, this is one of the best things to get accustomed to. When I was first mixing so many of my EQ's were boosting. "I can't hear the mids of that synth enough, I'll just EQ them up". It's a fast way to a muddled mix. Much better to carve a space for the synth. Also don't be afraid to cut too harshly. When a synth is soloed you might think "I've cut too much bass, it sounds thin", but in the context of the track the bass might lift it up. Not a strict rule of course, sometimes a synth will benefit from a hefty low-end, just experiment with how much you can get away with cutting.
Do you think it's OK to have a VST on the master bus that makes everything below a certain frequency (low bass) mono? Or might some bass benefit from breathing room and it's better to control everything individually?
Sometimes it's good to mix into certain effects if they make you feel more confident about the thing you're working on (like setting a bright EQ on a vocal bus), but that specific example goes against my instinct. I just mono a bass on it's own track. Stereo imaging techniques seem to work best on individual tracks than on mix busses or during mastering because you have finer control on a track by track basis and you can more easily avoid phasing issues. The only thing I'll put on my master bus is a compressor for gluing everything together.
FloatingDivider
Member
I personally keep my master bus clean, I used to run a compressor etc but I think having a predictable signal path is far more valuable. Tweaking something that's going into a compressor, exciter, eq & limiter was an exercise in futility. I rarely touch my master for anything other than bringing my mix up to volume after it's done. I generally aim to be as transparent as possible too. My mixes still suck though and I have seen master classes by more established producers that do run a bunch of stuff on the master.
I also don't think running a mid side eq to mono out bass stuff like that is a fruitful endeavour and you're probably better off fixing it at the source.
Also sup dudes long time no see I'm back up in this thing for however long it takes for my confidence issues to fuck me up again lmao. Still making music daily though, still struggling with my terrible tinnitus ears and inept mixing though.
I also don't think running a mid side eq to mono out bass stuff like that is a fruitful endeavour and you're probably better off fixing it at the source.
Also sup dudes long time no see I'm back up in this thing for however long it takes for my confidence issues to fuck me up again lmao. Still making music daily though, still struggling with my terrible tinnitus ears and inept mixing though.
I also never use EQ, compressors and such on the master.
I just try and listen carefully to the volume of all assets and change that if something feels too loud or too soft.
Also, I make sure my bassline is mono. Not sure if this is well-known, but the one time a label released some of my music I got a call from the mastering studio to switch my bassline from stereo to mono and that I need to do this always. Cause if my music would have been pressed on vinyl, the needle would skip because of the stereo bass.
I just try and listen carefully to the volume of all assets and change that if something feels too loud or too soft.
Also, I make sure my bassline is mono. Not sure if this is well-known, but the one time a label released some of my music I got a call from the mastering studio to switch my bassline from stereo to mono and that I need to do this always. Cause if my music would have been pressed on vinyl, the needle would skip because of the stereo bass.
FloatingDivider
Member
So this mono bass thing are you guys monoing the entire bass ? I tend to only mono stuff below 120 to 150 hz because I know that's essentially the fixed cutoff for most tiny speaker + sub systems am I doing this right or should I keep things mono higher up too ?
csquared587
Member
Thanks for the tips on the kick everyone. That low end/kick balancing act is always a tricky one for sure.
I like to have an eq on the master just rollilng off the very low sub frequencies(sub 30hz), and a very gentle compressor that I kind of tweak as I go along in a track.
How is the mix on this one?
https://soundcloud.com/hand5onmusic/rewind_it
I like to have an eq on the master just rollilng off the very low sub frequencies(sub 30hz), and a very gentle compressor that I kind of tweak as I go along in a track.
How is the mix on this one?
https://soundcloud.com/hand5onmusic/rewind_it
thezerofire
Banned
I usually only mono like sub ~200hz but try to keep stuff relatively centered just above that
I'm no expert of course
I'm no expert of course
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Yes I have been tweaking individual tracks to get finer control too, it's just I read a mixing/mastering tutorial (I can't remember the source I have like 50 bookmarked) in which a guy had a VST on the master bus dropping the stereo signal off below 200hz. I tend to not go with quick fix blanket solutions so I don't do it, was just wondering if it's a common thing.
That's about the range I cut to mono too. Tweaking anything higher probably depends on each sound and personal preference.
I don't see a reason not to keep it all mono. I've got plenty of other stuff going on in the sides.
Thank you so much for this insightful post man! I have work to do!
I actually had something similar. I had a label once and put out a 10" record from a breakcore producer, the pressing plant flipped because the master sounds were all over the place. they agreed to master it for vinyl for free, that was awesome. I learned the hard way and still know nothing about mixing & mastering
aThat one sounds good, too. The lead synth sounds a little thin. I might take a little low end out of the snare and bring it down in volume a tiny bit. Nitpicks.
csquared587
Member
Thanks, I agree on the main synth. I tried to fatten in with a few effects, but It started so thin as fairly high pitched vocal chop. Do you have a link to your music?
I've gotten into a music kick after a real long cool period. Got into a groove and ended up working on a cover of a Perfume song. Any chance I can get some feedback?
Soundcloud link here. The mix is super inelegant (just a limiter on the master), but I think it's cool.
Soundcloud link here. The mix is super inelegant (just a limiter on the master), but I think it's cool.
More shortwave radio recordings:
https://sadsic.bandcamp.com/album/adventures-in-shortwave-ii
theres a lot more weird unlisted recordings of things i have no idea what they are or where they came from
https://sadsic.bandcamp.com/album/adventures-in-shortwave-ii
theres a lot more weird unlisted recordings of things i have no idea what they are or where they came from
I like it. The synths are too upfront, but the arrangement is on point. If you can find the a capella to the original you should work it in there with some vocal chops or something.
What did you make this with?
Thanks again man. Some really good stuff in here.
Eventually I will!
Think it's funny though how long I can just dig what is already there. Creating something you can really enjoy after starting from scratch, even if it's just that 32 seconds for now, really is a great feeling.
FloatingDivider
Member
I've been there, I have songs I have no intention of developing beyond the 16 bars they are but goddamn if those 16 bars don't get me head nodding everyday all day. I almost feel like I'm saving those songs for when I'm good enough to make them what they deserve to be.
That being said I'm actively trying to teach myself to not sit there listening to things over and over and make consistent progress. If I catch myself just listening to a loop and enjoying it it's generally time to break my session out into an arrangement.
Thanks! It's tough because the original acapella is so much faster and there aren't many good rips. I was actually thinking of finding a vocalist to sing over it, but all my music friends are producers, not singers ;;;
This was made in Live 9 with a mixture of synths including Strobe, TAL-Bassline, and a custom simple super-saw from Ableton Operators.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Are most artists generally fine with the use of acapellas as long as you don't profit from it? I've been having fun making some heavily sampled trip-hop/hip-hop sounding beats the last couple of weeks and some of them would benefit from some rapping. I did a brief search for some free, legal raps but they mostly sounded like teenage white guys. I dropped a Wu-Tang acapella over one and it was a great fit.
If they release the a capella via official channels these days, you can assume they want remixers to help draw attention to the song.
DIY a capellas or stuff that was either stolen/leaked is different. I've had my own remixes made with decades-old vocals flagged for removal by record labels.
DIY a capellas or stuff that was either stolen/leaked is different. I've had my own remixes made with decades-old vocals flagged for removal by record labels.
It's too damn hot outside to continue now, but here's a very early and small bit of that track I mentioned :
https://soundcloud.com/nyx_1978/empty-glass-wip
https://soundcloud.com/nyx_1978/empty-glass-wip
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