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Stoney Mason said:
The later seasons do get better but by that point I was only watching interminently. Someday I'll re-watch to catch the full last number of good seasons.
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It's definitely worth it.

To back up what's been said here, standing still was the inevitable killer. I would argue a lot of DS9's latter success is simply because they had so alienated themselves from the core Trek considerations that they were allowed to make the changes that would make the show popular - I seem to recall Gene's wife and Berman/Braga being pretty insistent back in the day that serial storylines, significant cast and set changes, and "breaking from the core ethics of Trek" would destroy the series and its fanbase. By trying a bunch of different things, DS9 had a share of failure, but also managed to find itself and create a show that could finish its run as a success.

Voyager and Enterprise, on the other hand, were attached to the rails, until finally the need to justify itself to the network became too strong, leading to the kind of ratings grab tactics Enterprise was known for. They learned too late that you can't just dial back to the 90's and assume the old episode formulas work.
 
Marty Chinn said:
This. It seems like people forget how boring a lot of the show was and only remember the good stuff. Remember, there was a show before the Dominion showed up.
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Speak for yourself, the first and second seasons of DS9 were excellent and showed tons of character development and had some strong original episodes.

Season 1:

Emissary - Great introduction to the station but especially Sisko as the unruly commander that's unable to let go of the past and suddenly unwillingly becomes the emissary of the prophets. Excellent foundation for the series to build on, which is more than I can say for the other Trek series' premieres. (Encounter at Farpoint, anyone?)

Dax - Fascinating look into Trill background and the relationship between Sisko and the old man.

The Vortex - First glimpse into Odo's origin, good action, good story, very solid.

Battle Lines - Surprisingly good sci-fi episode, I'm kinda sad we never see Kai Opaka again.

Duet - Probably Nana Visitor's finest performance. I would recommend this episode to people who don't like sci-fi. I think that's the highest compliment I can give.


Season 2:

Necessary Evil - Excellent Mystery episode, with an excellent twist and ending.

Whispers - Obligatory torture O'Brien episode, Colm Meaney's always great.

The Maquis I and 2 - An excellent look at the Maquis and their motivations. Nothing is simple, friends fight and enemies work together. Alaimo's Dukat is excellent as usual.

The Wire - Motherfucking Garak. Enough said.

The Jem'Hadar - The beginning of the best arc in Trek. Who can forget the action scene?

Both seasons were strong showings of what DS9 brought to the table: Deep characters with believable motivations and the willingness to delve into the grey areas in the Trek universe.
 
*reads DS9 criticism*

sad-man-forehead-on-the-wall.JPG


EDIT: wait..BorkBork's post is full of WIN!

happy_man_psychic_yellowpages.jpg
 
Fix The Scientist said:
You are so so wrong. I love Star Trek but everyone knows Star Wars is cooler.

SW isnt "cool" but its cooler than ST thats for sure.
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Let me put this plainly:

Neither Star Trek nor Star Wars is cool.

Anyone who thinks either geek vehicle is cooler than the other deserves to have his mittens fastened to his coat, and be serenaded by the laughter of the other children.
 
IMO,

Star Trek had more cultural significance

while

Star Wars had more technical and industry significance

I don't know if either are "cool", but they were enough to generate tons and tons of money. :lol

Both have their followers and those who battle over the two don't know what made the two big in the first place.
 
BorkBork said:
Whispers -[/B] Obligatory torture O'Brien episode, Colm Meaney's always great.
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Writers were such dicks to O'Brien.

Another thing I like, and the writers liked to point this out, the Dominion's first mention was a seemingly unimportant Ferengi episode.

Few other ones I liked.

Move Long Home: I liked it, wasn't the most popular one, but I enjoyed it.
The Nagus: Ferengi eps. were always entertaining.
Blood Oath: Klingons, Killings, and Klingons.

MisterHero said:
IMO,

Star Trek had more cultural significance

while

Star Wars had more technical and industry significance

I don't know if either are "cool", but they were enough to generate tons and tons of money. :lol

Both have their followers and those who battle over the two don't know what made the two big in the first place.
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I say Star Trek was more influential, ESPECIALLY in the technology aspect. There's been a ton of tech spawned from Star Trek.

Cultural could go either way but i think both have had their permanent catch phrases and bits embedded in the culture.
 
Writers were such dicks to O'Brien.
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Yeah, I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Ronald D. Moore saying about how the writers would try to find the most fucked up things they could do to O'Brien.

I mean seriously, O'Brien is probably the most cosmically shat upon character in modern drama.
 
I was thinking more of the film/entertainment industry significance that Star Wars was (indeed Star Trek used Industrial Light & Magic for both the show and movies) but in a broader scale it would probably favor Trek, point taken.
 
BorkBork said:
Speak for yourself, the first and second seasons of DS9 were excellent and showed tons of character development and had some strong original episodes.

Season 1:

Emissary - Great introduction to the station but especially Sisko as the unruly commander that's unable to let go of the past and suddenly unwillingly becomes the emissary of the prophets. Excellent foundation for the series to build on, which is more than I can say for the other Trek series' premieres. (Encounter at Farpoint, anyone?)

Dax - Fascinating look into Trill background and the relationship between Sisko and the old man.

The Vortex - First glimpse into Odo's origin, good action, good story, very solid.

Battle Lines - Surprisingly good sci-fi episode, I'm kinda sad we never see Kai Opaka again.

Duet - Probably Nana Visitor's finest performance. I would recommend this episode to people who don't like sci-fi. I think that's the highest compliment I can give.


Season 2:

Necessary Evil - Excellent Mystery episode, with an excellent twist and ending.

Whispers - Obligatory torture O'Brien episode, Colm Meaney's always great.

The Maquis I and 2 - An excellent look at the Maquis and their motivations. Nothing is simple, friends fight and enemies work together. Alaimo's Dukat is excellent as usual.

The Wire - Motherfucking Garak. Enough said.

The Jem'Hadar - The beginning of the best arc in Trek. Who can forget the action scene?

Both seasons were strong showings of what DS9 brought to the table: Deep characters with believable motivations and the willingness to delve into the grey areas in the Trek universe.
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Don't forget the first three episodes of season two, and the second episode of season one ("Past Prologue") in which Garak shows up for the first time.

GhaleonEB said:
How is he wrong? What you are doing is trying to explain WHY the shows got bad ratings and were canceled. You are agreeing with him, just rationalizing the reasons for it. The point is, the franchise was on a long downhill slide for the past decade. You can debate with yourself the reasons, Cheebs was just pointing out the simple fact of the matter.
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He's wrong in that he compares the success of DS9, and Voyager to TNG, which is entirely unfair. You're basically comparing apples to oranges, read my post again.

Cheebs thinks that DS9 caused the downfall of Star Trek, when it wasn't the show's fault, and DS9 wasn't a failure by any means. Whether or not Voyager was a success is debatable, though.

Edit:
Cheebs also sees this trend as evidence that Trek is dying, when in fact it was harder for Trek to maintain the viewers it had held when it had no competition during TNG. As the title of my post read, "Numbers don't always tell the whole story."
 
Look I LOVE DS9, I really really love it. Dax (Jadzia) is one of my favorite characters of Star Trek period. It was just that it was the show that didn't appeal to the mainstream. The first one that didn't. It appealed to ME, but not joe six pack. Star Trek needs to appeal to the mainstream to succeed which is why I embrace this change. Star Trek is something meant for the masses and was alway meant to be so.

Like I said, I loved it as a fan but Star Trek was not meant to be this niche little hardcore thing when Roddenberry created it. It isn't some simple little sci-fi show with a cult following. It was meant to be far more than that. And DS9 began the shrinking of Trek.

And it doesn't hurt that while I love DS9, Kirk IS star trek.


This character right here, he is just as important to Star Trek as James Bond is to the Bond franchise:
captain-kirk.jpg
 
The worst part of 90's era Trek was Mrs. Troi. Majel Barret was awesome as Nurse Chapel, Chapel rocked. Ugh....then she did that which ruined everything.
 
Cheebs said:
The worst part of 90's era Trek was Mrs. Troi. Majel Barret was awesome as Nurse Chapel, Chapel rocked. Ugh....then she did that which ruined everything.
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Also Wesley Crusher. And, as stated before, the holodeck.
 
Cheebs said:
I actually never had a problem with Wesley to be honest. Never bothered me. Plus his episodes with Ashley Judd. Mmmmm.
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wesley2.jpg


The problem is the character was poorly and annoyingly written. Genius boy characters often are.
 
To be fair, maybe it was intentional and Wesley got it from his mom, because Beverly Crusher was almost as bad as Wesley. Every single star trek show (even enterprise) had a great Doctor except for 6 seasons of Next Generation.
 
Anybody who thinks the first few seasons of DS9 are bad should go back and watch (or rewatch) the early seasons of TNG. That is some truly terrible television.
 
People keep pointing to the Dominion war arc as to why DS9 was a good show, but even in the later seasons there are a lot of gems that have little to nothing to do with the Dominion. I hate to keep harping on it, but it all comes down to character development and writing that takes advantage of it.

Season 3:
Second Skin - Another strong Kira episode, it continues her transformation started from Duet towards her views on Cardassians.
Through the Looking Glass - A fun action-filled romp through the mirror universe.
Improbable Cause - Not quite Dominion related (most of the first part anyways) so I'll include it. Starts off as a quiet mystery and ends with a OMGWTF. Odo/Garak trade acerbic remarks. Absolutely brilliant.

Season 4:
The Visitor - Tour. De. Force. One of the Trek universe's best character pieces ever. See it if you haven't. Another episode I would recommend to ANYONE.
Hard Time The best of the O'Brien Torture episodes and takes advantage of the sci-fi concept to ask some pretty unsettling questions.
The Quickening - A medical episode without the technobabble with great execution and a believable ending. Takes Bashir down a notch too.

Season 5:
Nor the Battle to the Strong - Hell, the show even has a great Lofton episode! Shows the effects of war has on individuals and how they react in a realistic way.
Rapture - Another smartly written Bajoran focused episode dealing with Sisko's role as the emissary.
Children of Time - This is how you do a fucking time travel story. Hard choices, and well-realized arguments from both the crew and the settlers. In the end, Odo kills thousands (including himself) to save one. Has to live with it. No reset button. WOW.
Blaze of Glory - Last Stand of Eddington and the Maquis. It's nice to see the effects of the major political changes of the last few seasons.

Season 6:
Waltz - My favorite Dukat episode. Alaimo is just scary in his scenes, and the performance is made better because it's a recurring antihero/villain that had shown some redemption qualities in previous seasons. Not anymore. He's off the deep end. Brooks plays off him very very well.
Far Beyond the Stars - For people who criticize DS9 veering too much from Roddenberry's vision. Socially Aware piece of Classic Trek.

Season 7:
Chimera - One of my favorite episodes, and the best romantic Trek episode (not exactly a high standard). It's also about Odo questioning about who he really is. There's an excellent review here that goes more in depth as to why it's so good.

There are less episodes in the later seasons just because they're more Dominion focused, obviously.
 
DrForester said:
To be fair, maybe it was intentional and Wesley got it from his mom, because Beverly Crusher was almost as bad as Wesley. Every single star trek show (even enterprise) had a great Doctor except for 6 seasons of Next Generation.
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6 seasons? Crusher was boring as hell and one of the worst doctors in star trek but Pulaski was just a grouchy old lady version of McCoy.
 
Cheebs said:
6 seasons? Crusher was boring as hell and one of the worst doctors in star trek but Pulaski was just a grouchy old lady version of McCoy.
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Pulaski was awesome BECAUSE she was a copy of McCoy. McCoy was great.
 
DrForester said:
Pulaski was awesome BECAUSE she was a copy of McCoy. McCoy was great.
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But she was nowhere near as good as McCoy. A ripoff is still a ripoff. Although she was more entertaining than Crusher.
 
DrForester said:
Pulaski was awesome BECAUSE she was a copy of McCoy. McCoy was great.
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Trek fans like all men are predicatable. Pulaski was hated because she wasn't hot and was kinda mean. Dr Crusher was tolerated because she was a milf and nice. Trek knows their nerd demographic fantasies.
 
Stoney Mason said:
Trek fans like all men are predicatable. Pulaski was hated because she wasn't hot and was kinda mean. Dr Crusher was tolerated because she was a milf and nice. Trek knows their nerd demographic fantasies.
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Uhura was all old and unattractive in the later movies but still a great character, it isn't a looks thing. I mean who doesn't love Uhura desperately trying to speak Klingon out of piles of books in TUC? And she was all old and not hot in that.
 
Stoney Mason said:
Trek fans like all men are predicatable. Pulaski was hated because she wasn't hot and was kinda mean. Dr Crusher was tolerated because she was a milf and nice. Trek knows their nerd demographic fantasies.
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Umm... I hated Crusher, I like Pulaski. And if Anything Pulaski was the hot one when you look at the actresses two appearances in The Original series
 
Neither of you two are representative of the larger number of trek fans imo. Talk to regular casual trek fans and they hate Pulaski and like Dr. Crusher.

The same way when you talk to regular Trek fans not on the internet they don't have raging boners for DS9.
 
Cheebs said:
Uhura was all old and unattractive in the later movies but still a great character, it isn't a looks thing. I mean who doesn't love Uhura desperately trying to speak Klingon out of piles of books in TUC? And she was all old and not hot in that.
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Now I come to think of it, you'd imagine that the Enterprise's primary communications officer might have taken the time to learn Klingon.
 
Gary Whitta said:
Now I come to think of it, you'd imagine that the Enterprise's primary communications officer might have taken the time to learn Klingon.
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Klingons killed Kirk's son

she wasn't about to make it awkward by offering understanding
 
MisterHero said:
Klingons killed Kirk's son

she wasn't about to make it awkward by offering understanding
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Uhura probably told some great Klingon jokes when Kirk was out of the room. I myself only know one.

Why is Sisko better than Kirk? Sisko could save his son from the Klingons.
 
DrForester said:
Uhura probably told some great Klingon jokes when Kirk was out of the room. I mysel fonly know one.

Why is Sisko better than Kirk? Sisko could save his son from the Klingons.
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:lol
 
The only thing that would have made VI a more awesome movie then it already is, was to keep the original idea of having Savik be traitor onboard the Enterprise.

DrForester said:
Uhura probably told some great Klingon jokes when Kirk was out of the room. I myself only know one.

Why is Sisko better than Kirk? Sisko could save his son from the Klingons.
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COLD BLOODED!!!:lol
 
Kirk's son looked like a loser anyway.

Pudding Tame said:
The only thing that would have made VI a more awesome movie then it already is, was to keep the original idea of having Savik be traitor onboard the Enterprise.
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The Sex and the City chick played a pretty good vulcan I thought.

And Spock slaps her in the face at the end! :lol
 
BorkBork said:
Speak for yourself, the first and second seasons of DS9 were excellent and showed tons of character development and had some strong original episodes.

Season 1:

Emissary - Great introduction to the station but especially Sisko as the unruly commander that's unable to let go of the past and suddenly unwillingly becomes the emissary of the prophets. Excellent foundation for the series to build on, which is more than I can say for the other Trek series' premieres. (Encounter at Farpoint, anyone?)

Dax - Fascinating look into Trill background and the relationship between Sisko and the old man.

The Vortex - First glimpse into Odo's origin, good action, good story, very solid.

Battle Lines - Surprisingly good sci-fi episode, I'm kinda sad we never see Kai Opaka again.

Duet - Probably Nana Visitor's finest performance. I would recommend this episode to people who don't like sci-fi. I think that's the highest compliment I can give.


Season 2:

Necessary Evil - Excellent Mystery episode, with an excellent twist and ending.

Whispers - Obligatory torture O'Brien episode, Colm Meaney's always great.

The Maquis I and 2 - An excellent look at the Maquis and their motivations. Nothing is simple, friends fight and enemies work together. Alaimo's Dukat is excellent as usual.

The Wire - Motherfucking Garak. Enough said.

The Jem'Hadar - The beginning of the best arc in Trek. Who can forget the action scene?

Both seasons were strong showings of what DS9 brought to the table: Deep characters with believable motivations and the willingness to delve into the grey areas in the Trek universe.
Click to expand...

So for 10 good eps, I have to sit through another 35 boring ones? Thanks for illustrating my point about DS9. I've never denied that there were good episodes, just that the show had so much boring in between. I've also hated the relgious overtones in DS9 as well as the plight of the Bajorans so Emissary didn't appeal to me and I'd have to rewatch it but it's quite possible neither did Duet.
 
Cheebs said:
Kirk's son looked like a loser anyway.


The Sex and the City chick played a pretty good vulcan I thought.

And Spock slaps her in the face at the end! :lol
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To be honest, anyone who tries to pull off a white-fro is a loser by default.

And Kim Catrall's performance at Lt. Valaris was good, but having Savik as the traitor would have been better in terms of story. She's a known character who would have been above suspicion to the audience (in contrast to Valaris who presence screamed traitor as soon as crap started going down), and had the motivation due to Kirk's son's death to want to see the Klingon Empire dead.

Oh well, no use crying over spilled milk and Kirstie Alley's high asking price.
 
MC Safety said:
Let me put this plainly:

Neither Star Trek nor Star Wars is cool.

Anyone who thinks either geek vehicle is cooler than the other deserves to have his mittens fastened to his coat, and be serenaded by the laughter of the other children.
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So for you "putting it plainly" means backflipping on your original statement, and repeating what i've already said.
 
Fix The Scientist said:
So for you "putting it plainly" means backflipping on your original statement, and repeating what i've already said.
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Please allow me to laugh at you for arguing semantics.

You want to assert that your kiddie muppet-fest is somehow cooler than someone else's nerdgasm, you go right ahead.
 
Marty Chinn said:
So for 10 good eps, I have to sit through another 35 boring ones? Thanks for illustrating my point about DS9. I've never denied that there were good episodes, just that the show had so much boring in between. I've also hated the relgious overtones in DS9 as well as the plight of the Bajorans so Emissary didn't appeal to me and I'd have to rewatch it but it's quite possible neither did Duet.
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The 10 are my picks for outstanding episodes. There are plenty of good episodes I did not list, and some that I do not care for that others might like. (like DrForester liking the Nagus episode, I personally don't care for Ferengi episodes). The overall quality is there, and much better than the first two seasons of any other Trek series by a country mile. If you want to refer to my later post, I also point out outstanding episodes that have little or nothing to do with the Dominion arc in subsequent seasons.

As for the religious overtones, I obviously can't make you like the aspects of the show I like, but I think it adds the just the right amount of mysticism (not too much though, *cough* BSG *cough*) to a genre that's drowned in too much technobabble. I think it also works really well in the context of the show, where the Bajorans, an oppressed people under a brutal occupation, turn to spirituality for answers. Using Sisko, the main character, as a bridge between science (his Starfleet background) and mysticism (his duties as the Emissary) and watching his character evolve throughout the series was a very smart and deftly executed concept.

Honestly, if you care at all about the characters, episodes like Duet and the Visitor should at least make you think and feel something, as they are very good pieces of drama (towards the tragic variety). If you don't care for the characters, well.. I can't help you there, especially if you prefer the paper-thin characters from most of Voyager and Enterprise.
 
Dude did anyone just see the trailer during fringe.
it was AMAZING
 
Cheebs said:
The worst part of 90's era Trek was Mrs. Troi. Majel Barret was awesome as Nurse Chapel, Chapel rocked. Ugh....then she did that which ruined everything.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you what worst part of 90's era Trek was,.....................................................Voyager.
 
Marty Chinn said:
So for 10 good eps, I have to sit through another 35 boring ones? Thanks for illustrating my point about DS9. I've never denied that there were good episodes, just that the show had so much boring in between. I've also hated the relgious overtones in DS9 as well as the plight of the Bajorans so Emissary didn't appeal to me and I'd have to rewatch it but it's quite possible neither did Duet.
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As BorkBork already stated, he was only listing the best episodes throughout the seasons that weren't Dominion related. There are several levels of quality ranging from bad, okay, to good, great, outstanding, and "one of the best."

BorkBork said:
*list*
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There is so much I can add to this list, but I don't feel like doing it right now.:lol
Cheebs said:
Like I said, I loved it as a fan but Star Trek was not meant to be this niche little hardcore thing when Roddenberry created it.
Click to expand...
That may not have been Gene's intention, but that is how it turned out.

It isn't some simple little sci-fi show with a cult following. It was meant to be far more than that. And DS9 began the shrinking of Trek.
Click to expand...

No it didn't. This "shrinking" of Trek is simply more competition coming into play, and other factors that came into play. Voyager probably would have done almost as good as TNG had it not been for UPN, and DS9 was not a failure at all.
 
DS9 was an utter failure. It's great that you enjoyed it and still enjoy it to this day, but it is largely unmemorable to 98% of America.

That's why you should embrace this new Trek. It can find a whole new audience, which can get excited by Star Trek lore and then seek out old DS9 episodes.
 
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