D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I think it's more about the comfort and feedback you get from the console. That the controller is so good, that you are completely immersed into the game world.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
Agnostic2020
Member
My bad))
XOX
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/microsoft/scorpio_engine
XSX
https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-tech/
XSX looks more like a RX 5500 XT (minus cpu cores)
1-2 Shader Array (?) > 1 Shader Engine > 8RB > 32ROPs
"For scalability and performance, the RDNA architecture is built from multiple independent
arrays that comprise fixed-function hardware and the programmable dual compute units. To
scale performance from the low-end to the high-end, different GPUs can increase the number
of shader arrays and also alter the balance of resources within each shader array."
Yes, these words may refer to already released videocards. But they certainly do not limit the possibilities of architecture!
XSX is the most powerful of the currently known Navis. Its internal design should be different and rebalanced compared to weaker GPUs.
I just dont understand why u need to talk technical when u have no idea what u r talking about ? Lol
just let it go.
Thirty7ven
Banned
In a functioning capitalist market, you price the premium product at the highest point your consumer target is willing to go. You make a lot more profit at that range. So retail price doesn't reflect production cost, and of course if something costs you more 5$ per unit, once you make 50 million units of it that means an added investment of 250 million from the get go, which might not make sense if you can't assure those sales given your competition will undercut you and the majority of the end user is price sensitive.
I believe both consoles will be the same price, unless Sony decides to lose as much money per unit as MS. But make no mistake, the PS5 will be less expensive to manufacture. Obviously there other factors to consider like weight and size of the console which will also have an impact on the distribution costs.
And it's also important to consider that Sony will be controlling the manufacturing cost of its SSD, while MS depends on Seagate.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Like I said I believe 64ROPs is overkill for both machines so you won't see difference imo.
Rusco Da Vino
Member
Correct. That is what I understand for:
"Our goal with DualSense is to give gamers the feeling of being transported into the game world"
Then it says:
"as soon as they open the box"
What does it mean, what box? It sounds like a hint for a ultra fast OS booting time.
Last edited:
we already had this on PlayStation Home. Where I used to watch E3 back in the day.
Wandering Leopard
Member
It's interesting that even PS4Pro had 64, while the OneX had 32.
And related to Pro via EG;
As things stand, doubling up on ROPs is an intriguing postscript to what we know about the established Pro spec, but the docs also confirm that it's theoretically impossible to fully utilise them - the memory bandwidth just isn't there.
So then it's the case that the more rops you have, the more/higher memory bandwidth is required.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
It is all related... to the ROPs works they need to be filled with more data/pixels and so to these data/pixels to be created you need more overall GPU power including memory bandwidth.
The point is 64ROPs even at lower clock can process so many data/pixels per second that even a normal 4k 60fps render can't supply the ROPs enough to fully utilize them.... perhaps 64ROPs at 1800Mhz or more is even overkill for 4k 120fps or 8k 60fps.
A good example.
GTX 1080TI has 88ROPs.
RTX 2080/2080 Super has 64ROPs.
Is 64ROPs being a bottleneck for RTX 2080/2080 Super?
I believe nVidia number of ROPs in TI/TITAN series are more related to the increase in units increasing the number of ROPs in nVidia architecture than nVidia really wanting that amount of ROPs.
It i have to guess nVidia ROPs are related with how many TPCs the chip has.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Fun Fanboy
Banned
Will be something if PS5 comes out in limited supplies or even delays until 2021. That would be something.
Physiognomonics
Member
We know it's going out with limited supplies. They just announced it. The official reason is because they are afraid people won't buy it which is ridiculous.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yes, I'm a PlayStation gamer only, happens to have a high-end PC (4K@60fps ultra capable) that I've never even bothered to play on it. If MS brings something worth spending $1-10 for a month to play the exclusives, I might consider it. If Star Citizen matures, and doesn't go to PS5, then might as well give it a try. If my PC isn't gaming-ready, I won't even think about building a gaming PC (it's for general usage and as a workstation).
Convenience > framerates/resolution
Last edited:
Fun Fanboy
Banned
I wonder if that's what they're thinking for last of us game. Huh... wonder what's going on at the top over there at Sony.
Bladed Thesis
Member
If you're not praising the PS5 with undying loyalty, you're spreading FUD. You should see my DMs.So now im a MS fanboy spreading FUD? It's true what they say.
Last edited:
Tripolygon
Banned
Rusco Da Vino
Member
Fallacies aside, if you are treating here a fake news as something real, it is FUD.
Last edited:
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Star Citizen is very likely to come on console, if ever truly comes on PC in the first place lol
Fewer and fewer big titles remains PC only, there are some competitive games like Dota and LOL or legendary MMOs like WoW, but otherwise even simulators, managament or crpg games are coming to consoles. Since the PS3 era, consoles can emulate the digital-only distribution of PCs, have estensive online capabilities and the idea that consoles gamers only likes easy and simple games is long dead fortunately.
Last edited:
Neo Blaster
Member
Of course you don't have to praise it, but it's tiresome when someone is constantly saying 'Sony is doomed' at every minor rumour or random article that appears. To me, that's what concern trolling is.
FeiRR
Banned
It does but don't read too much into it. It's just marketing. You'll still have to update firmware and install a game before you play it, even if the whole process is smoother this time.
Have you noticed what's going on with the world?
M-V2
Member
Cache scrubbers
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
Fun Fanboy
Banned
Yeah I have. Animal Crossing is selling tons of games and making people happy they have something fun to play. Movies like Trolls 2 came out and you can rent it and enjoy something fun to watch.
Yes. I have been paying attention to the world. And some good entertainment is being released.
Hey now! You sound just like us Xbots this gen.
It does get tiresome does't it.
Last edited:
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Both at 499 will be an insane deal, no matter which you choose.Cache scrubbers
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
For me, unless MS doesn't go full exclusives and VR, ain't give half shit. To me VR is a crucial part of what I think "next gen" should be.
Only other istance is that PS5 is fucking broken, but even in that case I will wait to see if they can release a different model to fix things.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
excuse me? the post i made on the sony ports was BEFORE it was proven to be fake news. Find me a post of mine that continued to spread that FUD after it was confirmed to be fake.Fallacies aside, if you are treating here a fake news as something real, it is FUD.
Check the full conversation
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
I understood your post. That’s why I said that everybody was too lazy to explain so simply this concept with examples and stuff. I thought I was clearly saying it was a good post but maybe not. Yes, I was just elaborating.www.neogaf.com
the fact that you and neo blaster who quoted my post hours after it was posted continue to bring it up IS by definition FUD since you are purposefully being disingenuous.
Bladed Thesis
Member
On that, I will agree. I don't follow SlimySnake's posts enough to see him as being a "Sony is doomed" poster. If that's the case, I'd agree its definitely going overboard.
Bladed Thesis
Member
Yeah, I don't see him as spreading FUD but reacting to the "news" that drops each time. Maybe he falls for it too oftenFallacies aside, if you are treating here a fake news as something real, it is FUD.
Check the full conversation
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
I understood your post. That’s why I said that everybody was too lazy to explain so simply this concept with examples and stuff. I thought I was clearly saying it was a good post but maybe not. Yes, I was just elaborating.
Rusco Da Vino
Member
Did you see the spoiler of my post?
Edit: I post it here again.
Last edited:
Neo Blaster
Member
That's what I've been thinking, a smaller GPU saving is not enough to offset all costs related to that SSD/custom I/O chipset, and let's not even get started on all tech inside that controller.Cache scrubbers
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
FeiRR
Banned
I can't buy any physical copies of new games (like AC or FF7R) because borders are closed. Of course there are digital games but a lot of people still prefer physical releases. Stay happy in your little bubble until you can. Sony is a worldwide company and they think worldwide about their sales.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Fact is, they still decide the price.
I don't see likely something below 499, people are too fixated on this "10 TFs weak lol" thing. But Sony have insane revenue from Plus, and PS Now is likely growing, they simply can count on monthly income that Xbox do not have. I suppose they could decide a lower price than what the console should be.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is a forum, no? Why do we have to all post the way you want us to? We are allowed to have our opinions. If you have a problem with what I said, discuss it. By all means, rip apart my argument. Dont go around accusing everyone of being a MS shill just because your feelings got hurt because i dared to say Sony might be doomed.
Let's try this again. I said.
- A 10 tflops $549 PS5 would be a disaster. If you disagree with this then go ahead, tell me why a $549 PS5 would not be a disaster.
- If PS5 is $549, Xbox Series X is $599. What about this is FUD?
- Trying to save a few dollars on smaller die has left them with a weaker console at potentially the same price point. What exactly is wrong with this statement?
- Devs quoted by bloomberg are saying the console is $499-549. This isnt coming from me. Why are you accusing me of spreading fud?
All you do is go around quoting my posts and whining like a little girl about how it hurts your feelings. This isnt a safe space. You arent on era. This isnt a college campus where you are not exposed to differing views.
I am probably the biggest Sony fanboy here, I am on your side, and if I am your biggest problem on these boards then you've got some serious problems because there are much much worse posters out there.
Physiognomonics
Member
Yep. I won't be surprised if MS is cheaper this time. Their console is really barebone compared to Sony's. Except for 12tf they have nothing else really exciting nor expensive.Cache scrubbers
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
icerock
Member
Cache scrubbers
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
Half of the things which you wrote will take up space on the die itself, don't take illustration of the diagram in the keynote as actual representation of the SoC itself. On BoM, there are few unknowns but let me parrot myself:
icerock said:
Todays Bloomberg article repeats what we have known earlier, DRAM prices have gone up which have raised the BoM (for both Sony and MS). Due to COVID-19, every major manufacturer is facing challenges from Apple to Samsung to Sony and Microsoft. DRAM is something which goes in every smartphone too which is leading to scarcity. It's not a problem exclusive to Sony, MS are facing the same hurdles and they actually need more DRAM for every Series X they build. This is without accounting for another potential SKU in form of Lockhart. I still think there's a difference between BoM of two consoles which will be reflected in the MRP. I expect Sony to undercut Series X by at least $50.
Tripolygon
Banned
Customized does not determine price. The amount of space the chip takes on a silicon wafer determines price, probably much smaller than zen in terms of total package. The bulk of the cost of the SSD went to designing the controller. The cost of of manufacturing on a given node which I suspect is 28nm, is known fixed price. They use 12 slow nand chips across 12 channels to achieve the higher bandwidth. In contrast a standard SSD which has 4 channels has to use faster nand chips which cost more.
If you are designing your own, you only have to pay for manufacturing per wafer, if you are licensing someone else's design, you have to pay for manufacturing as well as licensing cost per chip. If you are buying a whole chip, you are paying for manufacturing as well as their profit per chip.
Last edited:
Neo Blaster
Member
Like M-V2 said, we have to see gameplay to even remotely guess on price. If Sony/MS want people to buy premium machines in the middle of a post-COVID-19 economy depression, either they make a big impact on games or bite the bullet and take quite a loss.
M-V2
Member
When I said the ps5 is more expensive than SX?? If both are the same price then I don't see why people make a big deal of it, because both consoles will be costly with or without Covid-19
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
It really depends on the closest first parties we can expect.
Next GT and Horizon will likely be something out of this world and more than capable of convincing people that next gen is around, there is little doubt about this. Also Bluepoint with the remake, they already stated their intention and SoTC Remake is top-tier visually.
How far third parties will go is uncertain, Battlefield, Far Cry and ACs generally have impressive graphical setups every time and know how to use an hardware; however, with COVID, we don't know if these games are coming around the first part of the generation or they will be delayed far away, which could be a problem for the new consoles because those are big hits that drives casual masses.
Last edited:
existensmaximum
Member
I really hope the boot-up is as fast as the 8/16-bit consoles.
Last edited:
ResilientBanana
Member
Find a single Xbox thread on this forum that doesn't have this happen almost instantly.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Brother, a 14tflop console at 549€/599$ would be a disaster. You are stressing over an irrelevant aspect when the numbers are as close as they are. You should think about the overall proposition and what it will mean to the experience of the end user
Sony didn’t save a couple of dollars here and ended up overpaying there, that’s a narrative created in YouTube comments. Don’t fall for it.
I see XBX (the most powerful console) being sold for the same price of a Switch and yet sales say what they say.
Value is a perception In the end, and now matter how much hardware Xiaomi puts into their flagship phones At half the price, it won’t sell Iphone numbers numbers. That’s perception of value for you.
MS and Sony are both coming out with ambitious consoles, it’s just that they aren’t exactly the same. Thank god they aren’t exactly the same, what’s the fun in that?
So Sony cut the sale price of the PS3 down compared to the cost to manufacturer it, but they can not do the same thing for the PS5 why? I think with the added revenue stream of PS plus and PS now could help with the decision to adjust the PS5 price to something more affordable to the masses, but all my opinion. I like to remain optimistic about these things until proven wrong.
Neo Blaster
Member
I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinions, but to give you an example, when a random rumour comes saying that every single exclusive PS game is coming to PC and someone immediately begins posting 'Sony is dumb' without even questioning how improbable that fact is and waiting for more information, I have to wonder if someone is rooting for doom. This isn't the only example, as a matter of fact.
ethomaz
Banned
Bigger APUCache scrubbers
Dedicated DMA controller
Coherency engine
12 controllers
5.5gb SSD
Better cooling solution
Tempest engine
Redesigned controller (joystick)with better tech etc..
All of that and people think it's gonna be cheaper than SX just because there's 17% difference between the 2 without knowing how both are gonna perform
More RAM modules
Bigger memory bus
2 PCBs
More SSD NAND modules
I believe the only discussable point that Xbox is cheaper than PS5 is SSD but that is discussable because the most expensive part of SSD, NAND modules, is in bigger quantity on Xbox.
APU, Memory, PCB are all expensive on Xbox.
I still believes Xbox cost is around $70-90 more expensive than PS5 costs.
Last edited:
Neo Blaster
Member
PS5 has 12 lanes and SX, 8. How can the latter has more NAND modules? I thought each module had a respective lane.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
you are in a thread called speculation analysis. Literally all we did here for two years was discuss rumors. The amazon leaks are usually very reliable as horizon was leaked the same way. Back when I posted that, i was going off of the assumption that Sony was releasing all PS4 exclusives on PC. uncharted, GT Sports, Horizon, TLOU2 and Days Gone. I am sure 99% of the Sony fans on this board will call it a dumb idea. Hell, we all trashed MS for putting everything on PC just a couple of years ago.
ethomaz
Banned
Because MS uses 175GB more NAND than Sony.
BTW lanes doesn’t tell you how many modeles too... you can have 4 lanes but MS can be using 4, 8 or 16 modules for example.
You can add how many modules you want to each lane... it is 3D stacked.
Last edited:
Bladed Thesis
Member
I think I've seen Crackdown 3 mentioned more in the last six weeks than the six years it was being developed.
Neo Blaster
Member
As reliable as when they said Bloodborne was coming to PC a few years ago? Yes, you can speculate, but what astounds me is how fast you go to the doom side for someone who claims to be a Sony fanboy.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Dont be so harsh, it’s in the nature of a fanboy to be insecure.
Neo Blaster
Member
I think they have bigger and faster modules than Sony's, not more. I think I saw someone here discussing how they went with smaller and slower chips(hence cheaper), but thanks to those 12 lanes, the overral result was faster than SX.
FeiRR
Banned
One more thing: the Xbox controller is much simpler and doesn't even have a battery. It is much cheaper to make.
- Status