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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Oct 16, 2017
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The PS5 is less powerful. Sony focused on a new I/O paradigm, and did their best to narrow the gap afterwards, but the difference will always be there. MS focused on the GPU first and foremost, and then tried to take over the "instant loads" narrative afterwards, that is their strategy. The difference is just not as large as some zealots would like to believe.
The issue is that Playstation was never into power ever since PS3. While Microsoft is tripping over itself with rumors of a Lockhart existing.

Best case scenario for Xbox, Microsoft pretend Lockhart never existed and just focus on the power message of Series X. Because if they actually launch the thing the Power marketing will collapse.
 

Ass of Can Whooping

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I have never once mentioned 'tflops'. It was claimed that 'no had said that the PS5 would outperform the Series X'. That's not true, the quotes prove that. It's that simple.
Redlight" said:
That seems to be quite a lot of people implying that "10.3 > 12.1." to me. I mean, are you kidding?
You do realise the entire argument revolved around the GPU in the first place
 
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sinnergy

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The issue is that Playstation was never into power ever since PS3. While Microsoft is tripping over itself with rumors of a Lockhart existing.

Best case scenario for Xbox, Microsoft pretend Lockhart never existed and just focus on the power message of Series X. Because if they actually launch the thing the Power marketing will collapse.
You think ? I can get a whole range of IPhones? From cheaper to flagship! Don’t see a power problem there?
 

SatansReverence

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End results is what matters, micecraft graphics is a pile of crap anyway, but this one with a smarter RT implementation with some modified materials done by enthusiasts looks 10x better than the one shown on XSX that's fighting to reach 30fps at 1080p:




Ends results is what all it matters to gamers. And that's 1440p@60fps (or more like around 20-60fps).
Good luck arguing yet another entirely false point with anyone that actually knows the Minecraft demo was always above 30fps but the video was simply encoded at 30fps.

Not to mention that the same demo brings a 2080ti to its knees and requires dlss to hit 1080p60.
 

Redlight

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Not at all. I don't see a single one of those quotes offering any numbers and certainly none saying 10.3 > 12.1.

One of them is specifically talking about CPU - that's not related to tflops counts.

These quotes are (lazily) referring to system performance measurable in metrics like FPS, resolution, visual effects & fidelity, AI complexity, game architecture, game world size, sound processing, and other things I've probably forgotten - that cannot be reduced a single number.

You might disagree with their analysis - but none of those quotes is making the simplistic claim you say they are.
One more time for the record.

The claim was this - 'no-one has said that the PS5 will outperform the Series X' (you might note that nothing about tflops was mentioned). Let's leave the goalposts exactly where they were when this discussion began.

The answer to that original question, supported by the quotes below, is 'yes, they have'.

Nothing that you've written above (or in your previous replies) disproves this simple fact. So, if you're going to reply again, please address that original claim rather than wasting your time refuting a point that was never made.

"Ps5 games will look better, deal with it."

"PS5 is overpowered. You've heard it first on NeoGAF, folks. Now let's wait for news outlets to catch up with this thread."

"This statement leaves Microsoft and the Series X in a really bad position"

"...XsX cpu will be taxed where PS5 will be free, assets will be compromised, sound"

"Check the Medium trailer. It will be possible but with less fidelity than PS5. How much, we don't know yet. I expect quite a lot."
 
Oct 16, 2017
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You think ? I can get a whole range of IPhones? From cheaper to flagship! Don’t see a power problem there?
Iphone has one of the weakest smartphone hardware on the market. And when was the last time Apple admit how underpowered their machines are?

Very, very bad example. Apple does NOT market power because they would lose.
 
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Dodkrake

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Can we stop with the nonsense that the PS5 has 36CUs because of BC? AMD is moving to 40CU chiplets that will stack to 80. The PS5 has a 40CU chiplet with 4 disabled for yields. That's all.

Also, let's stop with the nonsense that the XSX has higher bandwidth. The CU fill rate is LOWER than the PS5 when accounting for the split ram pool and higher CU count.

These are facts, no matter how many spins you give them.

Now, I'm fully expecting third party games to either match the lowest common denominator for resolution, so both will run at the same resolution, holding back the Xbox, or PS5 games to Run at a slightly lower Res / with slightly less effects. The same games will also not fully utilize PS5s SSD as they will need to accommodate for the XBOX.

Finally, for those saying "double the speed only means faster loading times, let's not forget that the PS5 can fill it's ram in <2 seconds and the XBOX takes roughly 3, which means that the PS5 can either hold more textures or higher quality ones, since it can load them faster and offload them faster.

That's all
 

Redlight

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You do realise the entire argument revolved around the GPU in the first place
The entire argument revolves around this claim 'no one said that the PS5 would outperform the Series X', but people have and I provided evidence. Are they right or wrong? Who knows? However the claim has been made numerous times.
 

Bo_Hazem

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I never mentioned the UE5 demo, and i have praised that demo numerous times on here. Also i'd be willing to bet anything that Minecraft RTX is harder for the next gen consoles to run than the UE5 demo.
Fine but i didnt say anything about the UE5 demo, i dont even know what post you mean. I rarely come in here anymore.
 
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Thirty7ven

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Good luck arguing yet another entirely false point with anyone that actually knows the Minecraft demo was always above 30fps but the video was simply encoded at 30fps.

Not to mention that the same demo brings a 2080ti to its knees and requires dlss to hit 1080p60.
It’s very hard to accept posts like this from veteran posters who by now have access to the information, which they present themselves as some sort of authority on.

The 2080TI needed to run at 1080p with DLSS to 4K to reach 60 FPS.

The XBS demo was at 1080p and hovering around 40 FPS. Sure this can be encouraging news if you want it to be, as it means RT features in XSX games should be common. But they already seem pretty common on PS5 so there’s no reason to believe RT won’t be common next gen.
 

DrDamn

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I have never once mentioned 'tflops'. It was claimed that 'no had said that the PS5 would outperform the Series X'. That's not true, the quotes prove that. It's that simple.
...
The claim was this - 'no-one has said that the PS5 will outperform the Series X' (you might note that nothing about tflops was mentioned). Let's leave the goalposts exactly where they were when this discussion began.
You did kinda move them yourself ...

That seems to be quite a lot of people implying that "10.3 > 12.1." to me. I mean, are you kidding?
Besides if you follow the conversation back further to it's origins it was specifically about the GPU and variable vs. fixed clocks. It was you who introduced the "performs" being pertinent to all aspects of the design and not just GPU.
 

SatansReverence

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It’s very hard to accept posts like this from veteran posters who by now have access to the information, which they present themselves as some sort of authority on.

The 2080TI needed to run at 1080p with DLSS to 4K to reach 60 FPS.

The XBS demo was at 1080p and hovering around 40 FPS. Sure this can be encouraging news if you want it to be, as it means RT features in XSX games should be common. But they already seem pretty common on PS5 so there’s no reason to believe RT won’t be common next gen.
"Nvidia didn't clarify exactly what base resolution Minecraft RTX Beta starts at before upsampling to 1080p via DLSS, but it's clearly a lower count than 1080p, as evidenced by the following average frame rates."

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/04/the-minecraft-ray-tracing-guide-how-does-it-work-can-you-actually-play-it/

Try again.
 
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Stuart360

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Hey Bo, seen as though you have been doing smilies against all my posts involving that, you will of seen that it was in reply to someone talking about someone else putting down the UE5 demo, not me. And the part about Minecraft RTX probably being harder to run than UE5 demo was done numerous posts AFTER i first replied saying i hadnt mentioned the UE5 demo.
So because you have tried to twist my posts to look like a contradiction, i have reported you. Good job.
 

Thirty7ven

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"Nvidia didn't clarify exactly what base resolution Minecraft RTX Beta starts at before upsampling to 1080p via DLSS, but it's clearly a lower count than 1080p, as evidenced by the following average frame rates."

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/04/the-minecraft-ray-tracing-guide-how-does-it-work-can-you-actually-play-it/

Try again.


Consequently, there are few issues running the Minecraft RTX beta on any desktop RTX card and to get a flavour of overall performance across the stack, we tried out the beta on the extreme ends of the RTX stack. The takeaway is that an RTX 2080 Ti can run 4K DLSS at 60fps on most content (we only saw drops into the 50s moving underwater), while 1080p DLSS on a desktop RTX 2060 produces equivalent performance.
Of course, we've seen an offshoot of this DXR version of Minecraft play out in an Xbox Series X tech demo, where at native 1080p resolution, the new Microsoft console delivered variable frame-rates north of 30fps.
Don’t worry, now you move the goalpost and tells us all about how the minecraft demo on XSX was made by one person in one afternoon.
 
Dec 10, 2018
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"Nvidia didn't clarify exactly what base resolution Minecraft RTX Beta starts at before upsampling to 1080p via DLSS, but it's clearly a lower count than 1080p, as evidenced by the following average frame rates."

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/04/the-minecraft-ray-tracing-guide-how-does-it-work-can-you-actually-play-it/

Try again.
No enemies on screen
No players on screen
No cows on screen
No nothing on screen
Low complexity assets
Cubes only
6x flat surfaces with textures
Just a camera, slowly "flying on rails" between every scene
was still laggy
 

Bo_Hazem

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Hey Bo, seen as though you have been doing smilies against all my posts involving that, you will of seen that it was in reply to someone talking about someone else putting down the UE5 demo, not me. And the part about Minecraft RTX probably being harder to run than UE5 demo was done numerous posts AFTER i first replied saying i hadnt mentioned the UE5 demo.
So because you have tried to twist my posts to look like a contradiction, i have reported you. Good job.
Report as much as you like, do you have any proof behind your claims that Minecraft "DXR not RTX" is harder than UE5 demo?
 

Ass of Can Whooping

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The entire argument revolves around this claim 'no one said that the PS5 would outperform the Series X', but people have and I provided evidence. Are they right or wrong? Who knows? However the claim has been made numerous times.
Might want to look back further so you can actually understand the context
 
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Stuart360

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Report as much as you like, do you have any proof behind your claims that Minecraft "DXR not RTX" is harder than UE5 demo?
No of cousrse not, hense my 'I'm willing to bet.....',. Nice dodge though. If you're going to be underhand, accept the slapped wrist.
 

Bo_Hazem

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No of cousrse not, hense my 'I'm willing to bet.....',. Nice dodge though. If you're going to be underhand, accept the slapped wrist.
So it's speculation? Well, your speculation is short. Minecraft RTX on PC is showing similar/better results already. UE5 until now not doable on any other platform at that level, according to the officials.

You seem to be triggered, when you say as outrageous claims/speculations, accept people laughing at it. Heck, I represent official facts and get daily LOL's from my dear friend Doncabesa Doncabesa and others and never felt offended. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 
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ToadMan

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One more time for the record.

The claim was this - 'no-one has said that the PS5 will outperform the Series X' (you might note that nothing about tflops was mentioned). Let's leave the goalposts exactly where they were when this discussion began.

The answer to that original question, supported by the quotes below, is 'yes, they have'.

Nothing that you've written above (or in your previous replies) disproves this simple fact. So, if you're going to reply again, please address that original claim rather than wasting your time refuting a point that was never made.

"Ps5 games will look better, deal with it."

"PS5 is overpowered. You've heard it first on NeoGAF, folks. Now let's wait for news outlets to catch up with this thread."

"This statement leaves Microsoft and the Series X in a really bad position"

"...XsX cpu will be taxed where PS5 will be free, assets will be compromised, sound"

"Check the Medium trailer. It will be possible but with less fidelity than PS5. How much, we don't know yet. I expect quite a lot."
And my point is that “outperform” depends on what performance metric one is choosing to compare.

You are choosing tflops as you’re comparable metric and then quoting posts that don’t relate to tflops comparisons.

That was and remains a disingenuous use of those quotes to suit your contrived position.
 

Stuart360

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So it's speculation? Will, your speculation is short. Minecraft RTX on PC is showing similar/better results already. UE5 until now not doable on any other platform at that level, according to the officials.

You seem to be triggered, when you say as outrageous claims/speculations, accept people laughing at it. Heck, I represent official facts and get daily LOL's from my dear friend Doncabesa Doncabesa and others and never felt offended. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
I dont care about your stupid laughs, i expect nothing less form you. I do care about you knowingly quoting 2 of my posts and making it look like something it wasnt. You literally did smilies against them posts a few mins ago so you cant pretend you didnt follow the conversation i had with another user about someone ELSE putting down UE5 earlier in the thread, hense my numerous posts saying 'it wasnt me who mentioned UE5'. You're a school teacher, so i'd hope you're not stupid, so dont pretend to be.
 

SatansReverence

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Don’t worry, now you move the goalpost and tells us all about how the minecraft demo on XSX was made by one person in one afternoon.
Good luck arguing yet another entirely false point with anyone that actually knows the Minecraft demo was always above 30fps but the video was simply encoded at 30fps.

Not to mention that the same demo brings a 2080ti to its knees and >>>requires dlss to hit 1080p60.<<<


Try.

Again.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Tom from Moore's law is dead said that the PS5 has SOC has customizations specific for VR, related to making rendering 2 images simultaneously less expensive. Don't know if it's true, but I want to believe:

(at 37 minutes)
Yup, that what we've been trying to explain about Gran Turismo officials talking about 4K@240fps, more like 4K@120Hz per eye.

Gran Turismo Sport producer wants to hit 240 frames per second. Despite the game being used by Sony to tease the future of 8K resolution, Gran Turismo Sport producer Kazunori Yamauchi says he would rather push the limits of frame rate to as high as 240 frames per second.

.
 

FranXico

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Yup, that what we've been trying to explain about Gran Turismo officials talking about 4K@240fps, more like 4K@120Hz per eye.

Gran Turismo Sport producer wants to hit 240 frames per second. Despite the game being used by Sony to tease the future of 8K resolution, Gran Turismo Sport producer Kazunori Yamauchi says he would rather push the limits of frame rate to as high as 240 frames per second.

.
I'm pretty sure Tom mentioned the intention was 120fps for 60fps per eye. That claim of 240fps is just daydreaming.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I'm pretty sure Tom mentioned the intention was 120fps for 60fps per eye. That claim of 240fps is just daydreaming.
4K@120Hz would look like base PS4 at best though, but the extra responsiveness is much pleasing for VR. Current PSVR looks like PS3 at best for example.
 

Thirty7ven

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I don’t have to try princess. It’s right there at DF.

At PC gamer:

In Nvidia's in-house testing, within a creator world from PearlescentMoon, an RTX 2080 Ti with Intel's finest Core i9 9900K—a frightfully expensive gaming PC combo—manages just 77fps at 1440p with DLSS 2.0 enabled. You ought to be thankful for that, too. The same rig reported just 36fps on average without Nvidia's neural network to help.
With a RTX 2080, 1440p with DLSS on, PC gamer gets 67 FPS avg.

But please go ahead, try to convince the world a 2080ti was struggling and needed DLSS to run 1080p.
 
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Absolutely.

When these consoles are finally out we'll move to a new phase. If (for example) the Series X has a raytracing/frame rate advantage and the PS5 has a detail/load time advantage then two camps will form, one camp will be...

"I prefer frame rates to be more filmic and too much ray tracing causes coronavirus. Speed and detail is everything!"

and the other will be...

"I can't see that additional detail from where I sit and I need that extra loading time for snacks - ray tracing and frame rates are everything!"

For about 8 years. Are you ready? :)
What framerate difference are you expevting? Could you please elaborate? I think we will see same almost the exact same resolution and framerate on both consoles. With minor drops here and there depending on each hardware advantage. The 2 tf difference will do almost nothing when XSX fill rate and caches are slower. Sony fitst party games will always be supperior to everything else even if ps5 is weaker.
 

SatansReverence

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I don’t have to try princess. It’s right there at DF.

At PC gamer:

In Nvidia's in-house testing, within a creator world from PearlescentMoon, an RTX 2080 Ti with Intel's finest Core i9 9900K—a frightfully expensive gaming PC combo—manages just 77fps at 1440p with DLSS 2.0 enabled. You ought to be thankful for that, too. The same rig reported just 36fps on average without Nvidia's neural network to help.
With a RTX 2080, 1440p with DLSS on, PC gamer gets 67 FPS avg.

But please go ahead, try to convince the world a 2080ti was struggling and needed DLSS to run 1080p.
We're done here.

So yes, a 2080ti requires dlss to hit 1080p60fps.



From the exact same article.
 
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kensama

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I can use the same argument and suggest Cerny tell only what PS fans want to hear.
seems you must open your eyes and correctly read.
When i said Microsoft tell what MS fans want to hear that's related you're quoting me an article from dirt 5 dev on MS blog. It's like the same dev had done the interview for Sony Blog. We had have the same sentence.
And concerning Cerny if you are better placed than him to talk of his architecture i'm impatient to read you.

When it comes to software vs hardware approach, Sony usually try to build hardware for every problem they encounter (they even build PS2 chip into PS3 in the past), while MS prefer software approach. If both methods can achieve the same goal then I dont care how exactly they are doing it.
But that's insane you can achieve by software what is done by hardware.
For SSD for example explain to me how can magically you will have a RAW data transfer up from 2.4Gb/s (XSX) to 5.5Gb/s (PS5) just by software method. That's weird to read.

MS has the upper hand in software without any doubts and they dont even need to build GPU with the same CUs multiplier just to run BC games (thats the reason why PS5 still has 36 CUs). Xbox one x runs BC games (xbox one games and x360) even better than the real hardware and I bet it will be the same on XSX. After reading countless articles about XSX it looks like MS enginees have also adressed I/O bottlenecks in their console (just in a different way). For example directstorage API only require 10% of one CPU core and probably achieve what a dedicated chip on PS5 does.
What you're telling that CU are there for BC. you are just hilarious? :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

kensama

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What framerate difference are you expevting? Could you please elaborate? I think we will see same almost the exact same resolution and framerate on both consoles. With minor drops here and there depending on each hardware advantage. The 2 tf difference will do almost nothing when XSX fill rate and caches are slower. Sony fitst party games will always be supperior to everything else even if ps5 is weaker.

We should remind to those guy who think framerate and resolution will be significantly huge in gap between PS5 and XSX, that for UE5 if EPIC not had say to DF that it was not native 4K nobody would know.
 
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I also think if you look at the timing of things, PlayStation already knew the XsX specs before the Road to PS5 - and probably before, and probably know how many ACEs and ROPs the XsX has through devs - and they knew what Epic were going to show on PS5, and don't seem at all insecure about what they've created - quite the opposite.

That tells me Playstation are happy to let xbox project a "more powerful" message, while Playstation show games on their hardware, and in all likelihood are saving the ACE count spec to the end, to displace the "more powerful" message definitively, because even at an unexpected 16 ACEs in the XsX, the words of Sweeney and what we know about the UE5 demo software all points to the PS5 having more ACEs, and at 400Mhz difference in clock, that's going to be a double uplift with the IO complex (IMHO).
AMD offered both sony and ms their best available technology, a 12 tf gpu and 8 core zen cpu. Sony chose to go with a fast frequency at 10.2 tf. They new what was offered to ms because they know the best of what AMD has in store.
Sony went with their design because they saw a good balance of performance and price.
 

Bo_Hazem

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A promotional image of the PS5 Black Edition


+

It's the official sponsor of the UEFA Champions League
I should send them my shilling campaign in action. Gotta get something for free after all that effort.



UEFA Champions League ads are the biggest it can get in a global scale, the biggest sport event in the world. They've been partners with Sony since 1997.
 

FranXico

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I should send them my shilling campaign in action. Gotta get something for free after all that effort.



UEFA Champions League ads are the biggest it can get in a global scale, the biggest sport event in the world. They've been partners with Sony since 1997.
And THAT is why Sony is going to lose! You guys only do it for money!

Xbox is True Passion!
We fight the good fight!
Against the Evil Sony!
Microsoft is here to save us! They are the underdog who needs our money and love to make a difference and avenge SEGA!

We shill and bend logic out of love!
:messenger_heart: :messenger_smiling_hearts: For Phil!
 
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LED Guy?

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I have never once mentioned 'tflops'. It was claimed that 'no had said that the PS5 would outperform the Series X'. That's not true, the quotes prove that. It's that simple.
No one is saying PS5 GPU > XSX GPU, it’s not, it’s weaker than XSX, but certain operations can be executed faster on the PS5’s GPU, but that’ll quickly be dominated by Xbox’s 16 more CUs found in its GPU than the PS5, so it’s meaningless for some Sony fans to mention that.

Xbox Series X is better at graphics processing & processing Ray Tracing, it’s just like that, but the difference between them is so small, it’s just 16% and can be mitigated by running a bit lower resolution on PS5.
 

LED Guy?

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We should remind to those guy who think framerate will be significantly huge in gap between PS5 and XSX, that for UE5 if EPIC not had say to DF that it was not native 4K nobody would know.
Unreal 5 demo wouldn’t run at Native 4K on Xbox Series X, not even the RTX 2080 Ti can run that demo at Native 4K 30 FPS, let alone 4K 60 FPS, that demo was heavy on the GPU and streamed assets.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
No enemies on screen
No players on screen
No cows on screen
No Fancy fish on Screen.
No nothing on screen
Low complexity assets
Cubes only
6x flat surfaces with textures
Just a camera, slowly "flying on rails" between every scene
was still laggy
Fixed for you, mind you not sure i like being below a cow, that could be a ton of trouble if you know what i mean. :messenger_beaming:
 

Bo_Hazem

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I'm just going to call it Playstation delivery from now on. Sony really should give it a name so it's obvious to people who don't know about it.
Maybe they didn't want to give it a name to make it sound like "I will sell you a car and you'll get 4 wheels for free!". Those big companies use different tactics and silence on that a matter can say more than words.

 
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ksdixon

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"Sony has made a $250 million investment in Epic Games, the two companies announced on Thursday. The deal means Sony gets a 1.4 percent interest in the game development studio and publisher and gives Epic a valuation of $17.86 billion, reports VentureBeat. "

250M only gets 1.4% of company? fuck me that's a lot of money for so little amount.
 
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sircaw

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A local pond.
"Sony has made a $250 million investment in Epic Games, the two companies announced on Thursday. The deal means Sony gets a 1.4 percent interest in the game development studio and publisher and gives Epic a valuation of $17.86 billion, reports VentureBeat. "

250M only gets 1.4% of company? fuck me that's a lot of money for so little amount.
Quality costs.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
Ditto for nVidia. I hope they only release the 3080ti, a 3050 makes the entire lineup worthless and unmarketable.
What's the difference in prices between those two consoles going to be.

Then whats the prices between those two nvidia cards there.

Would you mind just putting those figures down so we can compare please.
Come on give us your estimates.

If your making a comparison i just want to check if its fair.
 
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