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Jaguar Victory
Member
I won't have the Phil slander though. He's a G.
anothertech
Member
$499 & $399
ArcaneNLSC
Member
See this is what I was trying to point out that its bad/confusing branding last week.
Cyborg
Member
They only introduced the Digital SKU to soften the blow. I see two possible outcomes
Digital; €499
Regular; € 599
Or
Digital; €499
Regular; €550
I still dream about 399/499 combo
CrysisFreak
Banned
Nope
ArcaneNLSC
Member
prinz_valium
Member
B_Boss
Member
It doesn’t seem too confusing: you have two “Xbox Series” models: “X & S”.
jasondefaoite
Member
Sony have already said the DE is identical to the regular version, except for the optical drive.
hemo memo
Gold Member
You realize your doing the same thing right? A group who are so cringe of Phill and another cringe of hating him.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
No its the fact that people and businesses are calling it the Xbox One Series X Major Nelson made the mistake a few weeks back
BluRayHiDef
Banned
How many minutes, hours, or days do you guys think that it will take for the PS5's pre-orders to sell out completely? Also, if they sell out in less than a day, do you think that more pre-orders will become available before launch day? Do you think that Sony will continually make more pre-orders available if previous sets of pre-orders all sell out?
pasterpl
Member
imo. They should go with no limit system, allowing people to pre-order as many units as required, and then just send out units as they arrive, are manufactured
silent head
Member
CrysisFreak
Banned
I don't know if this is smart. I mean if you preorder as early as possible you should get a console on launch day and if they cannot do that people get mad.
I mean if I preorder a console as soon as preorders are available I expect to play day one.
I'd go nuclear if I have to wait longer.
ToadMan
Member
The preorders won't "sell out" - you'll just be added to the queue. If you don't get a day 1 console then you'll be in the queue for a later set of shipments.
Usually new shipments come fairly quick after launch just in smaller numbers.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Ok so people are speculating price points, honestly, how can anyone anticipate/hope for $399 from either of the next-gen consoles (Series S not included). Those who are looking forward to a $399 announcement have signed up for disappointment. Though $399 would be a steal of a price for the tech that both consoles are packing, I don't think it's going to be possible unless they take in a huge loss at launch.
CrysisFreak
Banned
The consoles are simply too powerful to be sold at 399 you're right. Even at 499 those systems are a steal imho. They will probably roll with 499 tbh.
Question is how much cheaper will Digital Edition be? If they subsidise it to be a hundred bucks cheaper it would pay off in the long run I think.
if sony announces a disk version ps5 for 499€ and a digital one for 399€ before microsoft´s conference on july 22nd (??) there is nothing microsoft can say to help them this generation. thats why they dont even need to make a big event to announce the price , just a blog post and the internet will break...hell if they REALLY want to destroy microsoft just announce it the day before their conference
if the prices are those(499€/399€) i think they will do just that
geordiemp
Member
I haven't checked this thread for a few days so not sure if your above discussion is still relevant, I must be atleast 10 pages behind so I'm posting this blind
There's likely a few factors at play why GPU can't be clocked as high as CPU, gonna 'try' explaining some seemingly unrelated stuff first cos I believe it'll be relevant. This info can be for anybody who are interested in some 'simple' basics. Apologies for being a smartarsebut if it irritates sircaw then it's worth it
Every conductor has resistance that will convert some of the current flow to heat, and in return the heat causes more resistance in the conductor. Alternating current also get 'impeded' as current generates a magnetic field at right-angles to the flow (EMF) which in turn opposes the changes (long story short) pushing back on the changing current. So higher the frequency higher the impedance, longer the conductor more resistance and impedance, and more wasted heat further increasing the resistance
For these reasons the industry is packing everything in as close as possible, smaller distances means less resistance less impedance therefore less heat generated/wasted so can go much higher frequencies with less power (power is a product of current and voltage). There's a limit on how small they can go before they start hitting up against the laws of physics, get too small and quantum tunnelling will cause shit load of problems
Transistors in modern digital electronics are MOSFETs (metal-oxide-semiconductor field-effect-transistor) commonly connected in complementary pair called CMOS (one FET for pulling voltage high '1' and other for pulling low '0') the refined FinFET works on similar principle. FETs configured this way only draw power (and generate heat) when switching states. The state change is NOT instant, because of 'parasitic capacitance' the state change (switching) takes time to settle and contributes to the 'propagation delay'
The FETs are arranged as logic gates AND OR NOT XOR etc and FlipFlops (flipflops are a Latch that can be SET RESET or Toggled)
CPU/GPU registers, cache, and SRAM are made up of flipflops as memory. DRAM are different, each bit is made from 1 FET and 1 capacitor. The capacitor is the memory that retains the electrical charge (voltage), which needs regular refreshing due to leakage. DRAM have much higher memory density opposed to SRAM which needs 6 FETs to make up it's 1 bit memory flipflop. DRAM are slower mainly cos the heavily multiplexed interface needed to access substantially more memory
The CPU/GPU ALUs, control units, memory controllers, and all the parts that make up the compute unit cores an etc.. are made from combinations of logic gates and flipflops. As mentioned the FinFETs inside the GPU and CPU are the same. There are 2 reasons I can think of why the CPU can be clocked higher than the GPU:
1) This one is gonna be obvious. The average number of transistors (FETs) that are getting flipped (switched) 'concurrently' will be far greater on the GPU than the CPU because the sheer amount of parallel work the GPU does. CPU has 8 general purpose cores running in parallel. Whereas GPU there are 64 cores per compute unit, so in total about 2300 to 3300 specialised cores all running in parallel (if ever fully utilised), means GPU is gonna be running way lot more hotter if at the same clock as the CPU!
2) This one is a reason why GPU logic cannot keep up with higher frequencies. The highest clock rate will be limited by the maximum 'propagation delay' of the longest chain of 'combinational logic' that's in the GPU. Propagation delay is the time it takes for a logic gate to settle it's output after its inputs changed (this ain't instant as explained above), these delays will add up with every gate in series to get the final result, examples like full adders or multiplexers. Would infer that GPU rendering pipelines ALU'S have very deep logic chains, lot longer than the ones in CPUs! Hence Cerny's statement that the 'GPU can be clocked higher but the logic won't keep up'
I think the words Cerny referred to explain that GPU and CPU can be cooled equally as easy was 'thermal equilibrium' ?
So now we put to bed that 2.23 Ghz is an imposed timing limit due to logic chains, and Cerny said 3.5 Ghz CPU and 2.23 Ghz GPU was thermally balanced for ps5 die size..
Its odd that XSX has 3.6 Ghz and 1.825 Ghz, yes its a bigger GPU on silicon but its quite a different route with higher CPU and 20 % lower GPU.....
Looking at all the leaks of big Navi, it looks like a 2.2 / 2.3 Ghz boost GPU, so inline with Ps5, and the wattages for 72 CU are not crazy for PC space. All will become clearer soon.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Precisely, also for the digital edition pricing, Digital Foundry did a fantastic video explaining the price speculations between disc and discless edition and how much a company can save from a discless variant. They were mentioning not more than $20-$40 per console by going discless. So $499 for disc edition, it can't be lower than $449 for a discless variant of PS5 right? unless Sony thinks taking a $100 price cut and pricing it at $399 would mean very beneficial for them in the long run as most consumers owning the discless console would've spent lot more money on digital games and digital games always brings in better profit margins for Sony as a publisher and developer. The sales/pricing/marketing team would've so much historical data on the PS4's digital sales per console, they'd come up with different price points for discless edition and if they were to significantly undercut and incur a loss, how can they recover from it in the long run from digital sales.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Although it says its a prototype I still find it odd Microsoft themselves labeled the controller as for Xbox One even though they had announced the Series X name months earlier:
Although it says its a prototype I still find it odd Microsoft themselves labeled the controller as for Xbox One even though they had announced the Series X name months earlier:
Not really, since the peripherals are backwards/forwards compatible across gens.
TLZ
Banned
He's the Kinect.
anothertech
Member
I just hope someone gives us this face again.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Forwards compatible? I thought this controller has a new share button and stuff? In any case they could have simply labeled it for Xbox. Point is they can't shake off the 'One'!
ToadMan
Member
CrysisFreak
Banned
Would love to play a new Arkham on PS5.
Arkham Knight is still eyeball-melting. It's probably going to be great
zubairali2
Member
havent visited this thread for a while! hope everyone is safe and doing well
sircaw
Banned
I haven't checked this thread for a few days so not sure if your above discussion is still relevant, I must be atleast 10 pages behind so I'm posting this blind
There's likely a few factors at play why GPU can't be clocked as high as CPU, gonna 'try' explaining some seemingly unrelated stuff first cos I believe it'll be relevant. This info can be for anybody who are interested in some 'simple' basics. Apologies for being a smartarse
Every conductor has resistance that will convert some of the current flow to heat, and in return the heat causes more resistance in the conductor. Alternating current also get 'impeded' as current generates a magnetic field at right-angles to the flow (EMF) which in turn opposes the changes (long story short) pushing back on the changing current. So higher the frequency higher the impedance, longer the conductor more resistance and impedance, and more wasted heat further increasing the resistance
For these reasons the industry is packing everything in as close as possible, smaller distances means less resistance less impedance therefore less heat generated/wasted so can go much higher frequencies with less power (power is a product of current and voltage). There's a limit on how small they can go before they start hitting up against the laws of physics, get too small and quantum tunnelling will cause shit load of problems
Transistors in modern digital electronics are MOSFETs (metal-oxide-semiconductor field-effect-transistor) commonly connected in complementary pair called CMOS (one FET for pulling voltage high '1' and other for pulling low '0') the refined FinFET works on similar principle. FETs configured this way only draw power (and generate heat) when switching states. The state change is NOT instant, because of 'parasitic capacitance' the state change (switching) takes time to settle and contributes to the 'propagation delay'
The FETs are arranged as logic gates AND OR NOT XOR etc and FlipFlops (flipflops are a Latch that can be SET RESET or Toggled)
CPU/GPU registers, cache, and SRAM are made up of flipflops as memory. DRAM are different, each bit is made from 1 FET and 1 capacitor. The capacitor is the memory that retains the electrical charge (voltage), which needs regular refreshing due to leakage. DRAM have much higher memory density opposed to SRAM which needs 6 FETs to make up it's 1 bit memory flipflop. DRAM are slower mainly cos the heavily multiplexed interface needed to access substantially more memory
The CPU/GPU ALUs, control units, memory controllers, and all the parts that make up the compute unit cores an etc.. are made from combinations of logic gates and flipflops. As mentioned the FinFETs inside the GPU and CPU are the same. There are 2 reasons I can think of why the CPU can be clocked higher than the GPU:
1) This one is gonna be obvious. The average number of transistors (FETs) that are getting flipped (switched) 'concurrently' will be far greater on the GPU than the CPU because the sheer amount of parallel work the GPU does. CPU has 8 general purpose cores running in parallel. Whereas GPU there are 64 cores per compute unit, so in total about 2300 to 3300 specialised cores all running in parallel (if ever fully utilised), means GPU is gonna be running way lot more hotter if at the same clock as the CPU!
2) This one is a reason why GPU logic cannot keep up with higher frequencies. The highest clock rate will be limited by the maximum 'propagation delay' of the longest chain of 'combinational logic' that's in the GPU. Propagation delay is the time it takes for a logic gate to settle it's output after its inputs changed (this ain't instant as explained above), these delays will add up with every gate in series to get the final result, examples like full adders or multiplexers. Would infer that GPU rendering pipelines ALU'S have very deep logic chains, lot longer than the ones in CPUs! Hence Cerny's statement that the 'GPU can be clocked higher but the logic won't keep up'
I think the words Cerny referred to explain that GPU and CPU can be cooled equally as easy was 'thermal equilibrium' ?
you have been absent for a few days and i have missed you, you heard that right. I yearned for you.
Imagine how much i will miss you if you stay away longer, lets double that, fuck it lets triple it.
Lets call it even and MAKE IT x1000 that.
Love you really. Its Geordie and Bo i have a problem with.
sircaw
Banned
Woh, are we talking the same language lol (jokiing, I get what your saying just about) Looks like somebody got their electrical engineering degree, propa champion
I can wire a plug too, FS.
What about me.
Never enough credit on these forums for my technical contributions.
This place would be boneyard with out my Savant technical acknowledgements.
eastwood333
Banned
Disk drives are only 20 bucks. A PS5 all digital version is going to be more than 399 unless sony wants to eat 80 bucks per console sold.
There is no way that the difference between a 4 tf box with less ram, slower SSD is only going to be 100 bucks less than a 10.2 tf box with more ram, and faster SSD. My guess is Lockhart 299 vs PS5 all digital version at 449 or 499 with more hard drive space
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SleepDoctor
Banned
Then if ms just undercuts price at the end of their show what happens?
Yea that'll show the big bad Microsoft right?
prinz_valium
Member
You sure there will be no higher capacity option?
825GB isn't much space. Especially formated. That's just 768GiB
Knitted Knight
Banned
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Then if ms just undercuts price at the end of their show what happens?
Yea that'll show the big bad Microsoft right?
there is no way MS sells their console under 399€(digital) / 499€ (standart) , also Sony only has to worry about MS in america , the other big markets sony wins over MS by a huge mile.
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SleepDoctor
Banned
XSX definitely not under the digital but possibly undercut the regular one. They said they wouldn't be out of position on power or price. If XSS is a thing, that will most likely undercut the digital ps5.
Nobody's been as triggered and defensive as you since the 250M deal was outed and your concern over the WB rumors. But nice try with the snide remarks
jasondefaoite
Member
jasondefaoite
Member
I asked you this question but you ignored it. Has the Xbox division actually published profit/loss figures, or just revenue?
sonomamashine
Member
Man i can't imagine what you would have done if Xbox was 10,2tf @2,23Ghz variable clocks and ps5 was a steady 12,2tf... i don't know how you would feel if you read Phil said
I agree it's odd MS managed to deliver a beast of a console, 2,23Ghz boost is just normal.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
SleepDoctor
Banned
Man i can't imagine what you would have done if Xbox was 10,2tf @2,23Ghz variable clocks and ps5 was a steady 12,2tf... i don't know how you would feel if you read Phil said
I agree it's odd MS managed to deliver a beast of a console, 2,23Ghz boost is just normal.
This is the same guy who said Sony's event would show why Ps5 is a next gen console cuz of the ssd and xsx isnt.
But all we got was fast loading. After all the hype of " no more loading screens". So yea, I wouldn't pay attention to his "techincal" posts or anything tbh.
geordiemp
Member
Nothing to add but ad hominem, the brainless speaks.
Also I never said that and you know that, I said Ps5 first party would show some fast streaming from SSD. And they did in Rachet. We have not really had in depth play yet of HZD it was cinematic first showing, so there is still time.
I made no comments about XSX show, we have not seen anything yet.
You never have anything smart to say, ever...... except lol remarks and insults.
Go read a book.
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