Support NeoGAF

[kyliethicc]

Just because the object is decompressed does not mean its ready.

Yeah like check-in and file I/O.

The reason Cerny said the PS5 SSD is 5.5 GB/s raw is because they accounted for all the steps. Every bottleneck.

If the 2.4 GB/s raw spec Xbox claims is to be believed, all of the things you're mentioning are part of that figure.

Its not "2.4 GB in 1 second, but also a few more seconds for the rest of loading."

This is why Cerny went balls deep in his talk about loading.

 

[sircaw]

50MB/s x 100 = 5000
So.... 5.5GB/s Cerny over delivered.

its just i can't put my finger on what it means for all this loading, i mean today i was really sure we were going to get like 10 sec loading screens for the xbox games, for red dead i accept the game is a monster maybe 15 but not 40.

I am now really worried that ps5 loading is going to be slow too, i know a lot of people want new games on ps5 but the truth is the old games are important to me as i can not afford to buy £70 pound new games. Truth is only new game i will be playing for a very long time is the Astro game, for at least a year it will be my backlog.

I am hoping to pick up games like Days gone and the Last of us 2 and have those with the ps5 new ssd times.

I still love playing Doom for example, not the latest but the older one, load times annoy me in that still, i was really hoping for much much faster.

Now i just kinda feel sad or let down. i know first world problem but still.

 

[kyliethicc]

its just i can't put my finger on what it means for all this loading, i mean today i was really sure we were going to get like 10 sec loading screens for the xbox games, for red dead i accept the game is a monster maybe 15 but not 40.

I am now really worried that ps5 loading is going to be slow too, i know a lot of people want new games on ps5 but the truth is the old games are important to me as i can not afford to buy £70 pound new games. Truth is only new game i will be playing for a very long time is the Astro game, for at least a year it will be my backlog.

I am hoping to pick up games like Days gone and the Last of us 2 and have those with the ps5 new ssd times.

I still love playing Doom for example, not the latest but the older one, load times annoy me in that still, i was really hoping for much much faster.

Now i just kinda feel sad or let down. i know first world problem but still.

For PS5 don't expect fast loading if the game is on an external hard drive.

But if Sony is telling the truth about the 5.5 GB/s raw, then a PS4 / PS4 Pro game that uses 5 or 5.5 GB of data in RAM should load in 1-2 seconds from the internal SSD. Maybe 3-5 seconds max.

But 10, 20, 40 seconds? No way. Unless Sony lied. We shall see.

 

[hemo memo]

Yeah like check-in and file I/O.

The reason Cerny said the PS5 SSD is 5.5 GB/s raw is because they accounted for all the steps. Every bottleneck.

If the 2.4 GB/s raw spec Xbox claims is to be believed, all of the things you're mentioning are part of that figure.

Its not "2.4 GB in 1 second, but also a few more seconds for the rest of loading."

This is why Cerny went balls deep in his talk about loading.

Talk less and show more. When are they going to have previews/teardown/BC/UI/ + ?? A week before release?

 

[FunkMiller]

Sony strategy is simple, let Microsoft show their stuff then we show ours.

Japanese Youtubers will give us a hands-on this week.

But I don't speak Japanese. As Sam Jackson once said "English mothe...."

Fascinated to see what Sony allow them to show. If it’s full UI, loading into games and real time launch title gameplay, it’s going to be a real gauntlet thrown down to Xbox to step up with something new.

 

[SlimySnake]

I can let her try my playstation for free

 

[Nikana]

Yeah like check-in and file I/O.

The reason Cerny said the PS5 SSD is 5.5 GB/s raw is because they accounted for all the steps. Every bottleneck.

If the 2.4 GB/s raw spec Xbox claims is to be believed, all of the things you're mentioning are part of that figure.

Its not "2.4 GB in 1 second, but also a few more seconds for the rest of loading."

This is why Cerny went balls deep in his talk about loading.

But loading is not a blanket thing. Engines are built in specifics ways to leverage different pieces of hardware. If the bottlenecks could simply be eliminated by decompression and moving things around into RAM extremely quickly with raw throughput we wouldn't need I/O rewrites.

Again, engines are doing more with data that simply moving them around. Theres a reason something like Skyrim loads in 7 seconds on an external SSD on Xbone and GTA still takes over a minute. Both have massive worlds but whats being done in that world is vastly different. The engine plays a key role in how it handles the data.

 

[kyliethicc]

Talk less and show more. When are they going to have previews/teardown/BC/UI/ + ?? A week before release?

The teardown will likely be at/after launch, same as PS4 Pro. Not needed before.

Who are you saying should talk less? Sony?

We've seen plenty of new games. And Game Informer said Kena boots in 2 seconds.

I don't think we will have to wait until launch to see the UI. Patience.

 

[sircaw]

For PS5 don't expect fast loading if the game is on an external hard drive.

But if Sony is telling the truth about the 5.5 GB/s raw, then a PS4 / PS4 Pro game that uses 5 or 5.5 GB of data in RAM should load in 1-2 seconds from the internal SSD. Maybe 3 seconds.

But 10, 20, 40 seconds? No way. Unless Sony lied. We shall see.

yer this is what i was thinking, that's why when they showed the xbox load times my first thoughts were fuck off that is not real, someone is making a joke or a lie, that's got an ssd and all that new memory, velocity stuff etc etc.

So yer i was kinda blown away, i really did not expect that, but everyone seems so happy from xbox side of things so maybe i am not thinking this through to well.

I am hoping to be blown away but now yer , i feel i am expecting the worst. sigh.

Where is my fat cat when i need her, AeneaGames come cheer me up you bean bag you.

 

[SlimySnake]

Talk less and show more. When are they going to have previews/teardown/BC/UI/ + ?? A week before release?

 

[kyliethicc]

But loading is not a blanket thing. Engines are built in specifics ways to leverage different pieces of hardware. If the bottlenecks could simply be eliminated by decompression and moving things around into RAM extremely quickly with raw throughput we wouldn't need I/O rewrites.

Again, engines are doing more with data that simply moving them around. Theres a reason something like Skyrim loads in 7 seconds on an external SSD on Xbone and GTA still takes over a minute. Both have massive worlds but whats being done in that world is vastly different. The engine plays a key role in how it handles the data.

True there is variance by game engine.

But I'm not trying to judge the load times for Series X by the worst case scenario badly optimized or inefficient game engines.

Even the best case examples of game loads shown today were slower than expected.

 

[WakeTheWolf]

Nothing really new or surpring tbh though. Nobody can beat MS when it comes to lies/BS

They tweet that MGSV is Xbox One exclusive.

They say they're not competing Sony, and "War is Over", then they moneyhat Sega to not release Yakuza on PS5 day one.

And exemples are infinite actually

I mean even Sony are neutral evil. I wouldn't expect anything less from any company in their position.

 

[kyliethicc]

Fascinated to see what Sony allow them to show. If it’s full UI, loading into games and real time launch title gameplay, it’s going to be a real gauntlet thrown down to Xbox to step up with something new.

Might be too early for that. Could just be hardware. I'm pessimistic and hope to be surprised.

 

[bhunachicken]

Sun, Oct 4, 2021, 10:00 am (London, UK - aka Center of the Universe)

Yes, because that's GMT upon which UTC to based

 

[On Demand]

Remember when we saw ps4 pro loading times with an SSD? The results are almost the same, so not surprising at all for series X... (ps4 pro with ssd reduces loading times by 50% in some games)

We upgraded PS4 Pro with an 8TB SSD: can we make a better console?
Faster load times, improved streaming: the ultimate storage upgrade benchmarked.

Loading Times (Seconds)	PS4 Pro Stock 1TB HDD	870 QVO 8TB SSD: External	870 QVO 8TB SSD: Internal
Battlefield 5: Mission 3 Nordlys	59.35	34.46	30.10
Battlefield 5: Mission 4 Tirailleur	66.04	36.18	31.01
The Witcher 3: Novigrad Centre	91.20	67.46	62.36
The Witcher 3: White Orchard	40.43	22.52	22.46
Bloodborne: Iosefka's Office (From Hunter's Dream)	23.45	12.05	13.38
Bloodborne: Central Yharnam (From Hunter's Dream)	25.22	13.37	15.34
Fallout 4: Diamond City	44.39	19.44	14.18
Fallout 4: Commonwealth	48.25	23.01	20.49
Gran Turismo Sport: Sunday Cup 3 Dragon's Tail	22.49	20.17	20.24
Gran Turismo Sport: Sunday Cup 4 Alsace	19.25	17.58	17.36
Final Fantasy 7 Remake: Sector 7 Slums Residential Area	33.29	20.55	19.54
Final Fantasy 7 Remake: Sector 5 Slums Church	24.31	17.17	16.08
Day's Gone: 1st Mission Load	87.28	50.16	47.16

All this proves is that MS went with a standard SSD with very little customizations.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

All this proves is that MS went with a standard SSD with very little customizations.

I feel that the SSD was more of a tick mark for them.

 

[ksdixon]

Now i understand all the xbox shills

This is fucking disgusting.

 

[Nikana]

True there is variance by game engine.

But I'm not trying to judge the load times for Series X by the worst case scenario badly optimized or inefficient game engines.

Even the best case examples of game loads shown today were slower than expected.

I guess I don't really understand what you expected. (Obviously you thought it would be quicker but I mean more why you had different expectations)

Looking at RAW throughput of an SSD and thinking that will result in file systems being able to harness it is not a good way to gauge it.

Its like the TF debate. More TF has more potential to be harnessed. But that doesn't matter if what's harnessing it isn't built correctly.

There is likely 2.4 gigs of data moving on BC games on series X, but all that data might not be useful.

 

[On Demand]

wow, Smart delivery looking less of a marketing gimmick and more of a great service each passing day

Here's the trick about "smart delivery"

SX is most likely using bluray BD50 for games. That's why you can put the game in both XB1 and SX and download that consoles version.

PS5 is confirmed to be using UHD BD100 for games. So back and forth compatibility wouldn't work.

 

[bhunachicken]

I reckon the reason we've not seen the full PS5 OS + PS4 games demos is that Sony isn't finished with the OS yet.

Likely, they've been having some issues and want to iron them out completely, before going public.

I was going to say that the PS5's IO is causing some sort of problem with the older PS4 games (trying to move data faster than the game expects it to), but I imagine when running in BC mode the PS5 wouldn't make use of the faster decompression and would be SSD speeds alone.

 

[DaGwaphics]

It is my understanding that XSX fully supports the traditional windows IO structure utilized on all previous Xbox consoles (straight back to the modified Win2000 on OG xbox) along with a modified system that greatly improves efficiency. Code designed to run on the old system will not see much if any benefit from the modernization efforts. BC on XSX is basically going to be Windows with an NVMe, or about 4x a hdd as expected. Software that utilizes the updated IO will be more efficient, I don't see how this could be so difficult to understand.

This is why the QR is so much more efficient than the BC game loads (completing a large write and read about as fast as expected).

 

[gamechanger87]

Compression is part of loading into memory. And the console have dedicated decompressors. The 4.8 GB/s figure Xbox states is including compression and decompression into the I/O speed.

The One X and Series X both support ZLib. So the 2.4 GB/s raw is slower than the drive can load Xbox One games because it uses Zlib and has dedicated decompresor.

Maybe it can't load One X games at 4.8 GB/s but it can at least hit 2.4 GB/s.

My point still stands. Not impressed with the Series X loading.

Your point doesn’t stand. These games were designed to load in a specific manner. Unless you see the game developed directly for SSD it will load as it was supposed to just faster.

If you drop and SSD in your PS4 is it magically as fast as the SSD says?

These drives are loading games in because mode. If you think the PS4 because games will be as fast as PS5 games you may as well start getting sad now.

These games won’t load immediately unless they are coded to take advantage of it. If they aren’t they won’t. Simple as that.

 

[travisktl]

I'm at this weird point were I can't wait to get the next little piece of PS5 info from Sony and think "How are they not releasing all of this info we don't know yet!? Where is the UI, loading time demos, BC, dualsense and tempest engine features, etc. The PS5 comes out in a little over 6 weeks!".....but, then I think "Oh yeah...I'm going to have a PS5 in my house in a little over 6 weeks!".

In the end, they only have this very limited time window to show off any remaining features (which is quite a bit), and we know it will be before the console releases. People need to relax and remember that. Regardless of what Xbox is doing, Sony has always been on their own timeline, they deliver when they do show content, and whatever is coming next from them will most likely be within the next month.

 

[Iced Arcade]

The acct suicides today.


Are people really surprised that Bo was banned? I'm only surprised it only happened now

 

[sircaw]

The acct suicides today.


Are people really surprised that Bo was banned? I'm only surprised it only happened now

Shut your filthy mouth, Its SAINT Bo_Hazem to you.

 

[Wooxsvan]

I'm at this weird point were I can't wait to get the next little piece of PS5 info from Sony and think "How are they not releasing all of this info we don't know yet!? Where is the UI, loading time demos, BC, dualsense and tempest engine features, etc. The PS5 comes out in a little over 6 weeks!".....but, then I think "Oh yeah...I'm going to have a PS5 in my house in a little over 6 weeks!".

In the end, they only have this very limited time window to show off any remaining features (which is quite a bit), and we know it will be before the console releases. People need to relax and remember that. Regardless of what Xbox is doing, Sony has always been on their own timeline, they deliver when they do show content, and whatever is coming next from them will most likely be within the next month.

Ya, this all kinda feels familiar with the lead up to Sony's June event. MS was building momentum and Sony was very quiet for the longest time. Then the day Sony had their event the entire conversation changed, how PS5 now had all the hype, showing real next gen games running on actual dev hardware etc. I expect we will see a decent spread of info that will again shift the conversation in some respects.

 

[ksdixon]

The acct suicides today.


Are people really surprised that Bo was banned? I'm only surprised it only happened now

Yeah "Bo" goes too hard on XB dick-riding games media, according to mods it seems. And is immediately vindicated by "Miss. Fuck You, Gimme Free Stuff" over here.

I say the ban gets overturned. You have to Bo-Lieve!

 

[SatansReverence]

The acct suicides today.


Are people really surprised that Bo was banned? I'm only surprised it only happened now

Just a shame its only 1 week. Anyone else would be on a perm warning for that level of meltdown.

 

[Larryfox]

Two things from someone who actually listened to that podcast. She was obviously joking and stated that she isn’t interested in any PlayStation games ( I know that’s not humanly possible to most of you reading this) and she not a journalist she’s and influencer/actor whose favorite platform are PC switch Xbox and ps in that order. I get it guys y’all love PlayStation and are bored but try to be reasonable.

Now i understand all the xbox shills

 

[jose4gg]

Just a shame its only 1 week. Anyone else would be on a perm warning for that level of meltdown.

Of course you the one that says that

 

[Insane Metal]

Anyone who doesn't like Bo clearly isn't a worthy human being.

 

[Faithless83]

People are hurt about the XSX loading times and BC, they needed a win.
Bo was just to appease the sad crowd.
The closest to "Free stuff" some people here will get today.

 

[BattleScar]

Sony is a Japanese company. What’s wrong with them using Japanese youtubers?

More to the point, Japan is the one region they've experienced the greatest decline in sales.
Its more important to try and get that potentially huge market on side again, than it is to give stuff to markets where there are people who are already queuing up outside shops to get a chance to preorder a PS5, let alone actually buy it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Anyone who doesn't like Bo clearly isn't a worthy human being.

I liked him until he went full Doncabesa on me . Leaving LOLs on every single post I made criticizing Sony for days. I tried to tolerate it but after like the 10th LOL I was ready to buy a one way ticket to Oman.

But I settled on adding him to my ignore list instead.

 

[Kerlurk]

Bo_Hazem Gets banned (got sent on 2 week vacation) for calling out digital foundry.
@TheGreatWhiteShark gets banned (2 weeks???) too for possible 2 million different reasons.

I was looking forward to having some intellectually stimulating discussions with Sharky. Hopefully will be back soon.

I'm sure Bo will be invigorated by his rest. When we have a war with the other side, and they send an army, we send Bo.

 

[Anchovie123]

Here i am again...Watching the Road to PS5 video for the 20th time...


"The reality though is that the SSD is just one piece of the puzzle, there a lot of places bottlenecks can occur in between the SSD and the game code that uses the data. You can see this on PS4, if i use a SSD with 10x the speed of a standard HDD I probably see only 2x the loading speed, if that."

"For Playstation 5 our goal was not just that the SSD would be 100x faster, it was that game loads and streaming would be 100x faster. So every potential bottleneck needed to be addressed and there are a lot of them."

"So to solve all that we built a lot of custom hardware, namely a custom flash controller and a number of custom units in our main chip."

"The flash controller in the SSD was designed for smooth and bottleneck free operation."

"Thanks to all that surrounding hardware our 5.5gb/sec really should translate into something like 100x faster I/O then PS4 and allow the dream of no load screens and super fast streaming to become a reality."



If you listen closely to his wording it really does seem like hes not only addressing these issues but has also solved them. Though of course this remains to be seen and after seeing these XBSX videos today this is all so damn interesting to me. Sony needs to hurry the hell up and show us this thing in action, specifically with BC games and quick resume.

 

[martino]

Here's the trick about "smart delivery"

SX is most likely using bluray BD50 for games. That's why you can put the game in both XB1 and SX and download that consoles version.

PS5 is confirmed to be using UHD BD100 for games. So back and forth compatibility wouldn't work.

that not really great that means you don't have on your disk a complete playable next gen version of your game
it would be really important for me if i had to buy xsx games since i don"t trust any closed box for media preservation and long time digital availability.

 

[Entroyp]

Shut your filthy mouth, Its SAINT Bo_Hazem to you.

Yo, Bo was banned? Hopefully not a perm...

 

[kyliethicc]

Your point doesn’t stand. These games were designed to load in a specific manner. Unless you see the game developed directly for SSD it will load as it was supposed to just faster.

If you drop and SSD in your PS4 is it magically as fast as the SSD says?

These drives are loading games in because mode. If you think the PS4 because games will be as fast as PS5 games you may as well start getting sad now.

These games won’t load immediately unless they are coded to take advantage of it. If they aren’t they won’t. Simple as that.

Cerny said a PS4 hard drive can load 1 GB of data in around 20 seconds, roughly.

I just loaded up my save in The Last of Us Part II from the in game main menu on my PS4 Pro. ("Continue")
It took 90 seconds. The PS4 Pro uses 5.5 GB of RAM, I think. Maybe 5 or 6.

So with Cerny's figure of 1 GB in 20 seconds, that 5.5 GB would take around 110 seconds. My PS4 Pro took 90 seconds, roughly the same as Cerny claimed it takes. (My PS4 Pro has the stock 1 TB HDD fyi.)

If the PS5 SSD is 5.5 GB/s raw, then that game should be able to load in 1 second, not 90 seconds.
But I don't expect it to be that fast. A reasonable expectation for a PS4 game on the SSD would be what? 5 seconds?

Unoptimized regular back compat PS4 games should be able to load in around 5 seconds from the SSD on PS5, and thats only assuming it can hit 1/5 of the raw SSD speed. Some could and should load even faster.

I fail to see how the figure Cerny quoted for PS4 HDD load times are accurate, and confirmed when I test a game load on my PS4, but then somehow the PS5 SSD load times he claims are not to be expected, even with some tempering?

Theres no reason to expect 10+ second load times of PS4 games on PS5 from the SSD. Unless the network is require. I'm of course talking about local singleplayer games.

If it takes even 10 seconds to do the same loading of TLOU2 on PS5 from the SSD that took 90 seconds on my PS4 Pro, then I will be disappointed. It defies basic logic.

I don't expect the exact raw mathematical figure of loading in 1 second, but 5 seconds is reasonable. That's quite a margin I'm giving them.

 

[Kerlurk]

Now i understand all the xbox shills

Sony watches video, and continues policy of never sending her anything for free.

The demented arrogance of these people.

edit: did not know, but she's not a gaming journo. It could be interpreted that she was just describing her experiences, and not expressing any kind of entitlement. That's a very misleading tweet, indicating "journalist".

 

[Insane Metal]

I liked him until he went full Doncabesa on me . Leaving LOLs on every single post I made criticizing Sony for days. I tried to tolerate it but after like the 10th LOL I was ready to buy a one way ticket to Oman.

But I settled on adding him to my ignore list instead.

Didn't know that.

Weird, I'm very critical of Sony as well sometimes but he never did that, not that I remember.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

I liked him until he went full Doncabesa on me . Leaving LOLs on every single post I made criticizing Sony for days. I tried to tolerate it but after like the 10th LOL I was ready to buy a one way ticket to Oman.

But I settled on adding him to my ignore list instead.

Lmfao

 

[WhispersintheWind]

For PS5 don't expect fast loading if the game is on an external hard drive.

But if Sony is telling the truth about the 5.5 GB/s raw, then a PS4 / PS4 Pro game that uses 5 or 5.5 GB of data in RAM should load in 1-2 seconds from the internal SSD. Maybe 3-5 seconds max.

But 10, 20, 40 seconds? No way. Unless Sony lied. We shall see.

Wouldn’t be Sony Lying. It could be PS5 games are encoded with software to help increase load time from SSD. Similar to Xbox’s VA. Also non of the Xbox One games where update with VA or optimized for Xbox Series X. It was just raw SSD loads.

Though PS5 should be faster then Xbox S X

 

[Kerlurk]

Yo, Bo was banned? Hopefully not a perm...

 

[Iced Arcade]

Yeah "Bo" goes too hard on XB dick-riding games media, according to mods it seems. And is immediately vindicated by "Miss. Fuck You, Gimme Free Stuff" over here.

I say the ban gets overturned. You have to Bo-Lieve!

He goes hard on dick riding?

Okkkk I'll take your word for it I guess.

 

[LiquidRex]

It is rumoured the PS5 cold boots faster than a Bruce Lee kick to the face.

 

[MasterCornholio]

But the speeds of the ps5's gpu are sky-high 2.2 or something that is not achievable on rdna 1.

Cerny said the CUs were RDNA2 ones. That's why they are able to reach such high clocks.

I'm not saying the XSX doesn't have RDNA2 CUs. They went with more if them so they had to lower the clocks.

 

[Zadom]

I liked him until he went full Doncabesa on me . Leaving LOLs on every single post I made criticizing Sony for days. I tried to tolerate it but after like the 10th LOL I was ready to buy a one way ticket to Oman.

But I settled on adding him to my ignore list instead.

I’m new here, but are lol’s so offensive? I’m watching now, no one better tag me with a lol or it’s on.

 

[Tripolygon]

Theres no reason to expect 10+ second load times of PS4 games on PS5 from the SSD. Unless the network is require. I'm of course talking about local singleplayer games.

If it takes even 10 seconds to do the same loading of TLOU2 on PS5 from the SSD that took 90 seconds on my PS4 Pro, then I will be disappointed. It defies basic logic.

I don't expect the exact raw mathematical figure of loading in 1 second, but 5 seconds is reasonable. That's quite a margin I'm giving them.

PS4 games are not loading in 1 second. Expect similar halving or slightly faster load times. During loading, there are other processes that also happen that take more than 5 seconds to initialize. These games were built for PS4 and as such come with software coded to how games are built now. Next Gen games use different api made for next Gen.

You are literally setting up yourself for disappointment.

 

[Chiggs]

Why do people take it personal when DF gets criticised?

I don’t get it, either. The only one on that team that has anything close to experience is Leadbetter.