Support NeoGAF

[Audioboxer]

Sure. But most of those countries have very strong national identities that would make closer integration difficult, which is why they have a loose union like the EU instead of a tight union like the UK. Right now, the people living in Scotland are in the relatively rare and infrequent process of forming reshaping their national identities. It is entirely reasonable to say that they should adopt the British identity to enable a more comprehensive union rather than adopt the Scottish identity to flee to a looser one.

I would also apply this argument to other EU nations; it's why I think two-speed Europe is the way forward. Belgium shouldn't be restricted by the fact Poland is still very different to Netherlands, when considering whether to form closer union with the Netherlands. Belgium could exist inside the loose union of the EU while also existing inside the tighter union of Benelux.

Not really, Scottish people have for a while felt a fairly strong sense of identity outside of being British. Which of course riles up unionists, and leads many to incorrectly tar as "problematic" to English people. The "British identity" has been dying up here for quite a while. The problem for those facing that is they double down on believing that is affront to them because they still believe in being British. Rather, it's just a nation diverging politically and rejecting what has been going on in Westminster for a while. I of course will have zero problem calling myself British, but by choice will say I'm Scottish. I've long lost my "British" union feel good factor since Tony Blair shat out the War, and then Tory reign continued to fuck everything up socially.

I'm sorry to say it might be sad for you, but a lot of people up here do not want a tighter union with Britain, and yes, that even applies TO Scottish unionists. Hence why we voted for 56 SNP seats out of 59. Politics plays such an important part in personal identity, and it's very hard to call yourself British when it's Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally. Very little to do with English people, very much to do with politics and where the real power in the Union lies (at least on the global scale, I accept many country wide powers are devolved).

 

[jelly]

BBC in damage control.

What are they doing?

 

[Principate]

It's far, far, far by an order of magnitude easier for me to currently sell something to some guy in Finland that it is for that same guy to arrange for that good to go to Latvia or Estonia on a truck via Russia.

Of course it is. That's why they travel the extremely small sea between countries. more likely than not your not shipping your goods from Aberdeen to travel by sea to go to Finland unless you go out of your way to do so. transportation links have evolved the way they have for a very good reason.

 

[In Service]

I'm sorry to say it might be sad for you, but a lot of people up here do not want a tighter union with Britain, and yes, that even applies TO Scottish unionists. Hence why we voted for 56 SNP seats out of 59. Politics plays such an important part in personal identity, and it's very hard to call yourself British when it's Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally. Very little to do with English people, very much to do with politics and where the real power in the Union lies.

Completely agree with the thought process and nothing I say intends to change your mind.

Where does it stop? Orkney are thinking about it. They probably look at the MSPs and think the same thing.

If we have any hope of giving birth to the United Federation of Planets

Spoiler

/s

we need to start loving one another again.

 

[Principate]

The UK government has shown that it doesn't really care too much about the lives and livelihoods of the people on your island so why do you want me to consider the negotiations of a trade deal as being a fairy tale story instead of what would most likely be, a bloodbath?

Because the Tory's are interested in money and power same with their backers. Losing trade with Scotland aides none of those and actively harms both. Brexit is going full steam ahead because they're exchanging wealth for a stronger grip on power. Blocking trade with Scotland weakens the UK economically and actively hurts the pockets of some of their backers. Unless a meteor lands in the next few years or a major war that's not going to change.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Not really, Scottish people have for a while felt a fairly strong sense of identity outside of being British. Which of course riles up unionists, and leads many to incorrectly tar as "problematic" to English people. The "British identity" has been dying up here for quite a while. The problem for those facing that is they double down on believing that is affront to them because they still believe in being British. Rather, it's just a nation diverging politically and rejecting what has been going on in Westminster for a while. I of course will have zero problem calling myself British, but by choice will say I'm Scottish. I've long lost my "British" union feel good factor since Tony Blair shat out the War, and then Tory reign continued to fuck everything up socially.

I'm sorry to say it might be sad for you, but a lot of people up here do not want a tighter union with Britain, and yes, that even applies TO Scottish unionists. Hence why we voted for 56 SNP seats out of 59. Politics plays such an important part in personal identity, and it's very hard to call yourself British when it's Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally. Very little to do with English people, very much to do with politics and where the real power in the Union lies (at least on the global scale, I accept many country wide powers are devolved).

The reason you have Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally is precisely because you voted for the SNP in 56 seats out of 59. Personally, I think that election strategy was cooked up between Sturgeon and Cameron for their mutual benefit.

 

[Audioboxer]

Completely agree with the thought process and nothing I say intends to change your mind.

Where does it stop? Orkney are thinking about it. They probably look at the MSPs and think the same thing.

If we have any hope of giving birth to the United Federation of Planets

Spoiler

/s

we need to start loving one another again.

If it can be legally done, you can propose.

Considering Orkney voted 63.2% to remain in the EU, it would be interesting to see if they'd want to stay in the UK outside of the EU, rather than Scotland in the EU.

That article reads more like Orkney getting cheesed off about the EU, and wanting to do things themselves. Which you can't exactly blame anyone for given Brexit.

The reason you have Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally is precisely because you voted for the SNP in 56 seats out of 59. Personally, I think that election strategy was cooked up between Sturgeon and Cameron for their mutual benefit.

Taking some conspiracy theory pills?

And yeah sure of course, blame Scotland for rejecting a terribly Torry party and a non-functioning Labour. Our small amount of seats should ALWAYS go to Labour, no questions asked, just to make sure we try to balance England accountable for veering towards the Tories. Nah, that's not how it works. May the best party get the votes.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

The reason you have Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally is precisely because you voted for the SNP in 56 seats out of 59. Personally, I think that election strategy was cooked up between Sturgeon and Cameron for their mutual benefit.

That is what won the Tories a majority. I can understand the Scots not realising this, but the main Tory line of attack on anything was the above.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Not really, Scottish people have for a while felt a fairly strong sense of identity outside of being British. Which of course riles up unionists, and leads many to incorrectly tar as "problematic" to English people. The "British identity" has been dying up here for quite a while. The problem for those facing that is they double down on believing that is affront to them because they still believe in being British. Rather, it's just a nation diverging politically and rejecting what has been going on in Westminster for a while. I of course will have zero problem calling myself British, but by choice will say I'm Scottish. I've long lost my "British" union feel good factor since Tony Blair shat out the War, and then Tory reign continued to fuck everything up socially.

These identities aren't exclusive. I'm British; I'm also Welsh as fuck and actually know all the words to Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (for some reason better when pished), and to add to that I'm European as the cherry on top of my identity trifle. When I say reshaping their identity, I mean in the sense of - Scottish as a part of British/accompanying British, or Scottish as a sole identity. And this obviously is an on-going choice - as recently as 2014, we know how people chose. And kow the process of choosing begins again.

I'm sorry to say it might be sad for you, but a lot of people up here do not want a tighter union with Britain, and yes, that even applies TO Scottish unionists. Hence why we voted for 56 SNP seats out of 59. Politics plays such an important part in personal identity, and it's very hard to call yourself British when it's Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally. Very little to do with English people, very much to do with politics and where the real power in the Union lies (at least on the global scale, I accept many country wide powers are devolved).

I mean, it depends what and where. I think significantly more powers need to be devolved to Scotland. 'Tighter' union has limits - local communities know themselves best. But some things need to take place at a higher level - currencies, tax rates, product regulations, electoral franchises, rights and dignities. I think there's a reasonable accommodation to be found with more Scottish devolution (and actually, not just Scottish - all the regions of the United Kingdom; Wales desperately needs more autonomy to develop itself), but you'll never get one by voting for the SNP because they simply don't have the incentive to reach that accommodation.

 

[ferrasvansen]

The reason you have Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally is precisely because you voted for the SNP in 56 seats out of 59. Personally, I think that election strategy was cooked up between Sturgeon and Cameron for their mutual benefit.

If labour had won those seats, it would still be Boris and May. They would still have a majority and would make no difference at all.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

If labour had won those seats, it would still be Boris and May. They would still have a majority and would make no difference at all.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I doubt that swung many voters away from Labour, more likely the bacon sandwich had a greater effect.

 

[AGoodODST]

Here we go.

No one can criticise the Scottish government for not attempting to achieve a compromise. This is on May's hands.

I think it is smart to leave the referendum until after the choice is clear.

And to be fair, they specifically outlined this very circumstance in their manifesto in regards to holding another referendum so I hope we don't hear countless cries of "b b but mandate!" from Dugdale, Davidson and Rennie (among many others and of course we will).

The reason you have Cameron, Boris and May representing your country globally is precisely because you voted for the SNP in 56 seats out of 59. Personally, I think that election strategy was cooked up between Sturgeon and Cameron for their mutual benefit.

C'mon, you can't honestly think that. Maths, how does it work?

 

[In Service]

That is what won the Tories a majority. I can understand the Scots not realising this, but the main Tory line of attack on anything was the above.

Well Labour could have taken all of the SNP seats and they still wouldn't have had a majority (by definition) so I can't agree.

I don't really think that anyone South of the border voted Tory instead of Labour because of Mr Salmond.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Man, imagine if Milliband was PM now. The UK would be a much better place already. If Scotland got independence and rejoined the EU/EEA I could see myself moving there and getting citizenship. A UK citizenship is going to be so devalued after 2 years.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Taking some conspiracy theory pills?

I wouldn't call that a conspiracy. Both parties needed to defeat Labour. Sturgeon ostensibly preferred a Labour government but that doesn't really suit her politically because it's easier for her to push her own agenda vs a Tory Westminster. Then of course there were the leaks.

 

[Audioboxer]

These identities aren't exclusive. I'm British; I'm also Welsh as fuck and actually know all the words to Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (for some reason better when pished), and to add to that I'm European as the cherry on top of my identity trifle. When I say reshaping their identity, I mean in the sense of - Scottish as a part of British/accompanying British, or Scottish as a sole identity. And this obviously is an on-going choice - as recently as 2014, we know how people chose. And know the process of choosing begins again.



I mean, it depends what and where. I think significantly more powers need to be devolved to Scotland. 'Tighter' union has limits - local communities know themselves best. But some things need to take place at a higher level - currencies, tax rates, product regulations, electoral franchises, rights and dignities. I think there's a reasonable accommodation to be found with more Scottish devolution (and actually, not just Scottish - all the regions of the United Kingdom; Wales desperately needs more autonomy to develop itself), but you'll never get one by voting for the SNP because they simply don't have the incentive to reach that accommodation.

Further devolution was supposed to be the answer to stop independence in 2014. There comes a point though when you shotgun yourself into Brexit, and then propose more devolution on the sinking ship, it gets harder to sell. Plus it looks like you're getting desperate if it takes Brexit to uphold promises made in 2014.

Wales would be best veering further towards the Greens or Lib Dems, while the Labour party is a riot. Maybe you guys will be following us

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/leanne-wood-calls-welsh-independence-12733965

Although Wales voted to leave the EU...

I wouldn't call that a conspiracy. Both parties needed to defeat Labour. Sturgeon ostensibly preferred a Labour government but that doesn't really suit her politically because it's easier for her to push her own agenda vs a Tory Westminster. Then of course there were the leaks.

Labour killed themselves up here. It did not require some coup with the Tories. The people voted in MPs like Mhairi Black to destroy Labour strongholds, it wasn't some Tories hiding in the bushes jumping out and voting SNP. Ex-Labour voters will have gotten sick of Labour and voted SNP if anything.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Well Labour could have taken all of the SNP seats and they still wouldn't have had a majority (by definition) so I can't agree.

I don't really think that anyone South of the border voted Tory instead of Labour because of Mr Salmond.

There would have been a hung parliament and who knows what would have happened except that the EU referendum wouldn't have.

And I'm sure they did.

 

[ferrasvansen]

There would have been a hung parliament and who knows what would have happened except that the EU referendum wouldn't have.

And I'm sure they did.

Nope Tories would still have a majority, they have more than half the total seats without Scotland makes no difference.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Man, imagine if Milliband was PM now. The UK would be a much better place already. If Scotland got independence and rejoined the EU/EEA I could see myself moving there and getting citizenship. A UK citizenship is going to be so devalued after 2 years.

(Assuming you are English) - you may not be able to move to Scotland if all that happens.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Nope Tories would still have a majority, they have more than half the total seats without Scotland makes no difference.

majority in 2015 was twelve

 

[In Service]

There would have been a hung parliament and who knows what would have happened except that the EU referendum wouldn't have.

Really?

Tory - 330
Labour - 229
SNP - 54
Others - 37

How do you make a majority out of that?

 

[ferrasvansen]

majority in 2015 was twelve

Yes and it would still be twelve if those seats swapped hands.

 

[Real Hero]

I doubt that swung many voters away from Labour, more likely the bacon sandwich had a greater effect.

You are kidding yourself, that tactic was directly aimed at people who would probably have voted Labour otherwise.

 

[Charles Brandon]

I'm being stupid

RETRACT! RETRACT!

 

[In Service]

I'm being stupid

RETRACT! RETRACT!

Noted.

=)

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Wales would be best veering further towards the Greens or Lib Dems, while the Labour party is a riot. Maybe you guys will be following us

Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here

But from a more serious perspective, no. If Wales were to veer towards the Greens or the Liberal Democrats, it would become even less relevant than it already is, the way that Scotland just gets ignored because nobody has any reason to cater to an SNP-voting population. Working within one of the two major parties is how things get done in an FPTP system.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/leanne-wood-calls-welsh-independence-12733965

Although Wales voted to leave the EU...

Yes. Scotland was less badly hit by deindustrialization than Wales and is about as wealthy as the English average. Wales is significantly poorer than Scotland, has the worst income as a result of the Barnet formula and actually subsidies the wealthier Scotland, and has an ageing population even by UK standards. Newport makes Glasgow look like Eden. It's not surprising Wales lashed out.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm being stupid

RETRACT! RETRACT!

At least you admitted it and were honest

But yeah, our seats do very little overall. Labour's major collapse has been in England.

59 seats obviously can make a difference, but we're nowhere near the point where they can. The Conservatives have Labour truly whipped in England. People need to stop blaming Scotland for that and deal with it south of the border. We've done our best to give the Labour party a shock into realising how much of a joke they've become, but they're even doubling down up here and continuing on their path to mutually assured destruction.

Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here

But from a more serious perspective, no. If Wales were to veer towards the Greens or the Liberal Democrats, it would become even less relevant than it already is, the way that Scotland just gets ignored because nobody has any reason to cater to an SNP-voting population. Working within one of the two major parties is how things get done in an FPTP system.



Yes. Scotland was less badly hit by deindustrialization than Wales and is about as wealthy as the English average. Wales is significantly poorer than Scotland, has the worst income as a result of the Barnet formula and actually subsidies the wealthier Scotland, and has an ageing population even by UK standards. Newport makes Glasgow look like Eden. It's not surprising Wales lashed out.

And then turned right around and got worried about the EU funding they were getting and now rely on the UK government to fairly help them out... That EU University funding Wales gets... oooft.

Wales should get better, but unless more people in Wales start to stand up and fight, rather than just follow their ever loved Union, it might not get better all that quickly.

 

[gutter_trash]

That is what won the Tories a majority. I can understand the Scots not realising this, but the main Tory line of attack on anything was the above.

Labour could have built a coalition government with SNP if only Labour would have performed better in the rest of the country

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Also, we now have Sinn Feinn calling for a referendum on the Irish Border at a time when NI is under westminster rule and Martin McGuinness is dying.

 

[Gallbaro]

Makes more sense for NI economically than for Scotland.

Don't think you can make up for the loss in free movement from a land boarder with ferries and planes.

 

[Tranqueris]

In addition, the collapse of the Labour Party means that we face a prolonged period of uninterrupted and unchecked Conservative government at Westminster.

Corbyn: "Dammit Nicola, I said I got this tho."

From the outside looking in, it really seems like that party is just there as a vehicle for that guy's ego and arrogance.

 

[DavidDesu]

That is almost word for word the brexit argument ffs

Except the UK actually has a large say in Europe and has a veto. The UK has gone along with what the EU has wanted far more than it has railed against it so this notion that the UK gets shouted down all the time is bollocks. Scotland with regards to the UK parliament really is a different kettle of fish and we really have very little power. Westminster could more or less disband Holyrood tomorrow if they so wished (and May and her Tories have made clear there will be a tightening grip on devolution after Brexit!), nothing is set in stone.

 

[Real Hero]

Corbyn: "Dammit Nicola, I said I got this tho."

From the outside looking in, it really seems like that party is just there as a vehicle for that guy's ego and arrogance.

I think it's more he just 100% genuinely believes one day his message will randomly cut through without him needing to change anything. He's just clueless

 

[Charles Brandon]

Except the UK actually has a large say in Europe and has a veto. The UK has gone along with what the EU has wanted far more than it has railed against it so this notion that the UK gets shouted down all the time is bollocks. Scotland with regards to the UK parliament really is a different kettle of fish and we really have very little power. Westminster could more or less disband Holyrood tomorrow if they so wished (and May and her Tories have made clear there will be a tightening grip on devolution after Brexit!), nothing is set in stone.

Scottish voters are not a monolithic block on national issues though, they get an equal vote in elections, same as all UK citizens. And more powers are being devolved to Scotland, not less.

 

[AngryMoth]

Depressing to think of a UK government with a huge conservative majority if they leave. Maybe I'll end up emigrating to Scotland, that's weird to think about haha.

 

[DavidDesu]

Labour killed themselves up here. It did not require some coup with the Tories. The people voted in MPs like Mhairi Black to destroy Labour strongholds, it wasn't some Tories hiding in the bushes jumping out and voting SNP. Ex-Labour voters will have gotten sick of Labour and voted SNP if anything.

Worse still is Labour are continuing to die in England. Two recent bad results in by-elections (one big reduction in their margin, another loss which was historic if I believe correctly..).

Nicola Sturgeon wasn't lying when she said it looks like the Tories could be in power until 2030 at least (and I predict going ever more right/working with UKIP) in Brexit land.. that's terrifying. They literally despise Scotland and treat us with contempt, the Boris Johnsons of the world. Literally not a care for the place other than to keep it part of the UK (remember many of these Tory MP's and Lords own huge swathes of Scottish land where they hunt and spend weekends etc). They're completely disconnected to the Scotland I know and love yet ultimately they have the control.

I just don't understand how hard it is for people to realise there is a huge democratic deficit for the Scottish electorate in the UK. They seemed to understand it well enough when they thought the EU overrode the British parliament when that was disingenuous, yet find it impossible to realise this is actually the case for Scotland in the UK. Getting sick of defending the obvious when the SNP rule Westminster and Holyrood governments, and are soon to dominate in local council elections AND after the 62% Remain vote in Scotland. They have the mandate, and we all knew that before we voted for them, they make a pretty strong case for being the "will of the people", time and time again, yet we can still get the ONE Tory MP in Scotland or the ONE Labour MP in Scotland on TV acting like the SNP are some niche faction in Scottish politics with no mandate... ARGH!

 

[AGoodODST]

May accusing Sturgeon of "tunnel vision" is hilarious.

 

[chromatic9]

Back to fantasy land politics again. If Scotland leave they will not be allowed to join the EU so what is the point? What currency are they going to have? In this thread alone you've got people claiming the impossible was going to happen last time, none of the questions have been answered at all. This is just negligence.

Absolute fucking nonsense.

They will be able to join just like any other country. Scotland is a separate country that is part of a Union here, once it leaves its free to apply. The Catalonia situation isn't the same and this will be explained to anyone asking. Also I've read Spanish politician's already recognizing this fact.

I can see Scotland using the pound while they wait for the EU application to go through which could be years and possibly more like 10 years. Recent countries have taken 10 years to get in but maybe EU can quicken the process in future. Scotland will have to adopt the Euro once in, new countries have to and existing ones need to get on board after 2020 unless you have some incredibly special circumstance. I don't think England will be incredibly petty and stop Scotland using the pound after using it for so long while they wait to be entered in the EU.

Scotland should probably hold the ref after Brexit. I don't think 6-12 months will be that important considering how long it takes and so much can happen during the next two years. Scottish people need to know the full outcome and not be guessing near the end.

 

[giant_frying_pan]

Very happy that the head of the SNP's economic policy commission says the independence case should not include oil and gas too. This was my own personal restriction whilst voting Yes first time around and one of a few mistakes the SNP made in that campaign.

No 'Queen as the head of state' nonsense this time, please. Unionists will vote no either way.

I'm considering taking a more active role in helping the campaign for independence too.

 

[In Service]

They have the mandate, and we all knew that before we voted for them, they make a pretty strong case for being the "will of the people", time and time again, yet we can still get the ONE Tory MP in Scotland or the ONE Labour MP in Scotland on TV acting like the SNP are some niche faction in Scottish politics with no mandate... ARGH!

To be fair, that's publicly funded TV (or others) trying to give a voice to the minority - what's the problem with that?

The population of the SP is quite broad as well and the SNP don't even have a majority of MSPs so it's not as bad as you paint it.

 

[Audioboxer]

Worse still is Labour are continuing to die in England. Two recent bad results in by-elections (one big reduction in their margin, another loss which was historic if I believe correctly..).

Nicola Sturgeon wasn't lying when she said it looks like the Tories could be in power until 2030 at least (and I predict going ever more right/working with UKIP) in Brexit land.. that's terrifying. They literally despise Scotland and treat us with contempt, the Boris Johnsons of the world. Literally not a care for the place other than to keep it part of the UK (remember many of these Tory MP's and Lords own huge swathes of Scottish land where they hunt and spend weekends etc). They're completely disconnected to the Scotland I know and love yet ultimately they have the control.

I just don't understand how hard it is for people to realise there is a huge democratic deficit for the Scottish electorate in the UK. They seemed to understand it well enough when they thought the EU overrode the British parliament when that was disingenuous, yet find it impossible to realise this is actually the case for Scotland in the UK. Getting sick of defending the obvious when the SNP rule Westminster and Holyrood governments, and are soon to dominate in local council elections AND after the 62% Remain vote in Scotland. They have the mandate, and we all knew that before we voted for them, they make a pretty strong case for being the "will of the people", time and time again, yet we can still get the ONE Tory MP in Scotland or the ONE Labour MP in Scotland on TV acting like the SNP are some niche faction in Scottish politics with no mandate... ARGH!

They cling to the past, almost like two parties still sitting around going "did the SNP get 56 seats? Nah, it's cool, just a dream". As I said I really don't envy some of the MPs positions at times, they kerb their words up here in order to prevent their real big voting blocks in the South from raining hellfire down on them. You've seen Corbyns flip-flopping on us being able to have a vote as he no doubt got crucified. Scottish Labour is saying they will oppose a VOTE. Yes, the actual ability to have a vote. Not campaign for remaining in the UK, but actively try and block a vote. Then Corbyn comes out and says YOLO and even Scottish Labour get egg on their faces, so he backpedals and then gets called out that he did say what he said.

Although I did get a Labour leaflet into my home today that stated "Only Labour is fighting the cuts being made to public services by both the SNP at Holyrood and the Tories at Westminster. That's why you need a Labour councillor."

 

[In Service]

They cling to the past, almost like two parties still sitting around going "did the SNP get 56 seats? Nah, it's cool, just a dream". As I said I really don't envy some of the MPs positions at times, they kerb their words up here in order to prevent their real big voting blocks in the South from raining hellfire down on them. You've seen Corbyns flip-flopping on us being able to have a vote as he no doubt got crucified. Scottish Labour is saying they will oppose a VOTE. Yes, the actual ability to have a vote. Not campaign for remaining in the UK, but actively try and block a vote. Then Corbyn comes out and says YOLO and even Scottish Labour get egg on their faces, so he backpedals and then gets called out that he did say what he said.

Although I did get a Labour leaflet into my home today that stated "Only Labour is fighting the cuts being made to public services by both the SNP at Holyrood and the Tories at Westminster. That's why you need a Labour councillor."

I heard Corbyn on the Today programme this morning and he basically said that he wouldn't want to block a request for a new indyref but thought it was a bad idea. I don't like the guy but he didn't sound that bad this morning.

 

[Audioboxer]

Crab, you've got your own worries in Wales, let alone Scotland! :O

I heard Corbyn on the Today programme this morning and he basically said that he wouldn't want to block a request for a new indyref but thought it was a bad idea. I don't like the guy but he didn't sound that bad this morning.

The issue is Scottish Labour and Dugdale want to oppose a vote being allowed. Corbyn's own party are never unified. It always ends up looking bad for him. His stance of not blocking it, but thinking it is a bad idea is neutral. Allowing democracy, but voicing his opinion on the result. Scottish Labour don't want the vote going ahead at all, but will obviously fail to vote against it as the SNP and greens will easily pass the vote going ahead in parliament.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I heard Corbyn on the Today programme this morning and he basically said that he wouldn't want to block a request for a new indyref but thought it was a bad idea. I don't like the guy but he didn't sound that bad this morning.

That is scottish labour policy, but it is not what Corbyn said yesterday. The fucking idiot.

Now Plaid are getting in on the act even though Wales voted to leave. Disingenuous nationalist nutters.

 

[In Service]

Crab, you've got your own worries in Wales, let alone Scotland! :O

The issue is Scottish Labour and Dugdale want to oppose a vote being allowed. Corbyn's own party are never unified. It always ends up looking bad for him. His stance of not blocking it, but thinking it is a bad idea is neutral. Allowing democracy, but voicing his opinion on the result. Scottish Labour don't want the vote going ahead at all, but will obviously fail to vote against it as the SNP and greens will easily pass the vote going ahead in parliament.

Got you. It's bad when the leader of the only real opposition in the land can't rally his party behind him - whether we think he's objectively right or wrong. I would say more but don't want to derail the OT.

 

[D4Danger]

Very happy that the head of the SNP's economic policy commission says the independence case should not include oil and gas too. This was my own personal restriction whilst voting Yes first time around and one of a few mistakes the SNP made in that campaign.

No 'Queen as the head of state' nonsense this time, please. Unionists will vote no either way.

I'm considering taking a more active role in helping the campaign for independence too.

if they aren't going to promise to use gas and oil prices to plug the hole it's going to mean higher taxes and/or public cuts. Scotland runs a deficit of about £15bn. How do they plan to sell that?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Brexit despite all the data was sold to people. They'll figure it out.

 

[GeordieMark]

May accusing Sturgeon of "tunnel vision" is hilarious.

It's pot and kettle but she's not wrong.

 

[Principate]

if they aren't going to promise to use gas and oil prices to plug the hole it's going to mean higher taxes and/or public cuts. Scotland runs a deficit of about £15bn. How do they plan to sell that?

Good old nationalism in the face of economics.