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Nikkei: PS4 to utilize Gaikai, have expanded social features, and no "Cell" chip

If you have a ps3 why the hell does it matter? Is it that hard to plug in your old console? Lol people like you are hilarious to me man.

Seriously. I would rather pay $50 (estimate) less for a console than have backwards compatability. When I buy a next-gen console, I move on. I don't want inferior gfx from last gen. If the game is that good that I need to play it, I will plug in the console that plays that game.
 
Yes... I know that, over the PS4's lifetime they will hit 50 million. They will need more processing for BC. What is that number? Do they make a large initial investment and put out 5...10?..20?..??? Millions of servers? What do they do? Progressively add more?

Anyway... I'm not sure what you mean the resources being divided rather than even. Every PS3 game needs a PPU and SPEs. Trying to dynamically allocate games won't work the same way regular multicored system would. Okay.. 1 game needs 1 PPU and 6 SPE's... Another game needs 1 PPU and 2 SPE's... We have an extra 4 SPE's not being used from that second game... Can we allocate it elsewhere? Sure... but we still need another PPU.

At the end of the generation, by the time they can software emulate the PS3, these servers will be redundant. No one would buy them except for at a low cost. They are better off putting BC capable tech in the device.
It'll have BC. All of those PS3 games on psn, teasing you...
 
Having PS3 playback on hand will be important to me going into next gen. I don't leave old games behind. I don't think like that.

But I don't see the problem in having the PS3 hooked up next to the PS4.
 
Am I the only one that is more interested in PS2 backwards compatibility than PS3? One of the reasons I never bought a PS3 was that by the time it was (relatively) cheap, there was no PS2 BC.

I still have a ton of PS2 games on disc that I never played, or wouldn't mind playing again if they were upscaled.
 
Am I the only one that is more interested in PS2 backwards compatibility than PS3? One of the reasons I never bought a PS3 was that by the time it was (relatively) cheap, there was no PS2 BC.

I still have a ton of PS2 games on disc that I never played, or wouldn't mind playing again if they were upscaled.

This was actually the exact reason I hunted for a launch PS3 at the time. I didn't buy a game for it until much later. That PS2 BC is so, so good.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that PS2 BC probably will not be on the PS4.
 
Am I the only one that is more interested in PS2 backwards compatibility than PS3? One of the reasons I never bought a PS3 was that by the time it was (relatively) cheap, there was no PS2 BC.

I still have a ton of PS2 games on disc that I never played, or wouldn't mind playing again if they were upscaled.

You have the same "disease" as me. ;)

I didn't need PS3 to have played PS2 when it first came out (I had PS2 :P). But since one model did, I never wanted to have the inferior model.

I bought a PS3 the moment that the PS2 was announced to be moving to partial software-based emulation, and then removed entirely.

When that PS3 was stolen... I spent time in a funk. I couldn't bring myself to buy the newer, crippled PS3s with no BC. Instead, I saved up the cash, and bought another launch PS3 off ebay :P
 
Ken is probably laughing and crying at the rumoured ps4 specs.


This is the first console launch under kaz and house and my word it looks like a disaster so far.

Ahhh I see, a troll account.

On topic:

PS4 had better have some form of BC for PS3 games at launch, otherwise I'm sitting it out until one of these "next generation" systems gets all of the bells and whistles. Is it so hard to have BC AND used game support as well as a meaningful graphical leap? The PS2 had all of these things more than twelve years ago :/
 
Well the ps4 not having a cell chip was a given given all the rumors of the new consoles using amd cpu's.

The whole expanded social features thing sounds like a modified version of home (is that still in beta btw ?)
 
I believe you didn't understand my post. You argued that there needs to be a 1 to 1 correspondence from PS4 user to the equivalent of a PS3 in Gaikai's distributed system.
For your example: 50+ million PS4s. You do not need 50+ million "PS3s". Much less people will be playing a PS4 at the same time. Much less trying to play a PS3 game on that PS4. And even down to that, distributed systems allow resources to be divided on a need basis rather than an even basis, so again, much less "PS3s"

Somewhat true, but not entirely. OnLive for example, went belly up because they had vast server farms in sprawling data centers with tons of infrastructure. Some lesser graphically intense games could use shared resources on a custom hypervisor they built, but Steve Pearlman is on record stating that higher end PC titles (which mind you were running only at 720p on medium settings) required a 1:1 player/server (with dedicated CPU/GPU/RAM) in order to function correctly.

Shared resources, hypervisors, and all the elaborate tools someone like VMWare offers doesn't translate much at all when it comes to streaming video games. The biggest accomplishment that OnLive and Steve Pearlman did was inventing a very efficient protocol to trasmit frames, mouse/keyboard clicks. Very similar to what Citrix invented in the mid 1990s (ICA, later licened by MS and called RDP), just built from the ground up to stream video. Unfortunately for OnLive, the magic stopped there and the reality sank in that in order to serve up virtual content for in demand games, they needed that 1:1 back end footprint in the data centers. This is also why it took so long for them to start signing licensing deals for day 1 releases. They had to invest millions building data centers and by then it was too late. That and Steve was a buffoon and made a ton of mistakes near the end.

Gamestop bought a company that does something similar to OnLive... and you know where it is? I don't know, I was hoping you could tell me lol. Gaikai, prior to the Sony buy out had optimized their protocol even better than OnLive. But without a Sony buy out, Gaikai would have faced the same troubles. I would argue that Sony bought Gaikai for other reasons, like the OP says.. for integrated cloud services for social platforms etc.. things they can easily host in data centers and an affordable cost. But not for streaming video games, PS1, PS2, PS3 or PSN games.

Microsoft? Where are they in the cloud arena? Well, for 1 they've been in the "cloud" since the mid 1990s when they struck a deal with Citrix to buy Terminal Services and implemented it into Windows NT. Dave Cutler the guy who then practically invented Windows NT (which for those of you know dont' know turned into Wndows Server OS line), later when on to practically invent Azure.. which is Microsofts newest home grown cloud service that does things the competition can't. Oh and speaking of Dave Cutler, he was moved from the Azure team (when it was done) onto the Xbox division to work on cloud service and platform integration there now. Thats uh, thats pretty big news to say the least. The father of Windows Server OS's, and a cloud guru working specifically on Xbox.

Cloud is here to stay, but in different forms than some on GAF might be expecting. Do not expect streaming video games, at best that MIGHT be setup for just game demos on the fly (w/o needing to download them). Where you'll see the "cloud" on next gen gaming platforms will be with network connectivity, software as a service, and platform unification. Seemless features built into the console OS's that will function the same on several platforms, and just "work". Where Microsoft has the advantage is this is their home turf. They've been developing this technology for 20 years and its their bread and butter. If MS offers these kind of features they will all combine to feel as "one" service (Live). Everything will just "work" and flow, and operate like it was designed that way from the ground up. Where Sony may offer similar capabilities they will lack in uniform integration and services on the PS4 may feel independent, disconnected and suffer from not being architected together from the first line of code. What I mean is, Microsoft envisioned, designed and birthed Azure, Sony bought Gaikai.

I suspect that will be evident on these next gen consoles.

We'll find out soon enough.
 
Well the ps4 not having a cell chip was a given given all the rumors of the new consoles using amd cpu's.

The loss of BC is painful, but it will be better for developers, and ultimately for consumers.
 
I never understand the hype for bc, this gen we have had a half arsed version of it from ms and having it then having it removed by sony. I dont think i used it at all, if i really wanted to play those games id hook up my older consoles.
 
Somewhat true, but not entirely. OnLive for example, went belly up because they had vast server farms in sprawling data centers with tons of infrastructure. Some lesser graphically intense games could use shared resources on a custom hypervisor the built, but Steve Pearlman is on record stating that higher end PC titles (which mind you were running only at 720p on medium settings) required a 1:1 player/server (with dedicated CPU/GPU/RAM) in order to function correctly.


As someone said earlier, I believe Gaikai was in a better position wrt virtualisation than OnLive.

And obviously as boxes become more powerful the number of sessions that can be put on a box increases and running costs will come down.

In terms of PS3 games, any (third party) PS3 games to be delivered by cloud would have to be relicensed. I would guess that part of that relicensing would involving using a PC version of the game if available, so that it (or a slightly modified version thereof - with PSN trophy support etc. ) can be put on their virtualised PC hardware rather than on a '1:1' PS3 setup. That would cut down significantly on the amount of PS3 hardware they'd need.

That said, I'm not convinced they WILL do this, but I'm also not convinced they CAN'T do it. We shall see.
 
If you have a ps3 why the hell does it matter? Is it that hard to plug in your old console? Lol people like you are hilarious to me man.

Because my uk launch ps3 looks to be dying anytime soon. You know how much i bought this console for? £350 That's a lot of money. I have shed loads of psn games.

You want me to buy a next gen console in addtion to a ps3 inorder not to lose all the games i have accumulated for the past six years?

Dude with all due respect, you may have tons of money to buy 1 2 or 3 consoles. But not me.

I will skip the ps4 until it becomes 200 dollars. That's it really.
 
Because my uk launch ps3 looks to be dying anytime soon. You know how much i bought this console for? £350 That's a lot of money. I have shed loads of psn games.

You want me to buy a next gen console in addtion to a ps3 inorder not to lose all the games i have accumulated for the past six years?

Dude with all due respect, you may have tons of money to buy 1 2 or 3 consoles. But not me.

I will skip the ps4 until it becomes 200 dollars. That's it really.

Yes but if they stuck the cell into the PS4, you would have to pay even more money for that BC. The architecture is completely different, and doing full BC would greatly increase the cost of the PS4.
 
Am I the only one that is more interested in PS2 backwards compatibility than PS3? One of the reasons I never bought a PS3 was that by the time it was (relatively) cheap, there was no PS2 BC.

I still have a ton of PS2 games on disc that I never played, or wouldn't mind playing again if they were upscaled.

Go buy a used PS2....
 
Because my uk launch ps3 looks to be dying anytime soon. You know how much i bought this console for? £350 That's a lot of money. I have shed loads of psn games.

You want me to buy a next gen console in addtion to a ps3 inorder not to lose all the games i have accumulated for the past six years?

Dude with all due respect, you may have tons of money to buy 1 2 or 3 consoles. But not me.

I will skip the ps4 until it becomes 200 dollars. That's it really.

It's unfortunate that your PS3 is dying.... but that's not a normal situation, and it isn't something so widespread that we should expect BC for that fact alone.

My launch PS3 is going strong.
 
I really don't need BC. It's a nice feature, but like a couple of people said before, if I want that old graphics , I will just buy (or keep) the old console to play them.

Let's move on.
 
PS4 had better have some form of BC for PS3 games at launch, otherwise I'm sitting it out until one of these "next generation" systems gets all of the bells and whistles. Is it so hard to have BC AND used game support as well as a meaningful graphical leap? The PS2 had all of these things more than twelve years ago :/

When you radically change architectures, yes.
 
Somewhat true, but not entirely. OnLive for example, went belly up because they had vast server farms in sprawling data centers with tons of infrastructure. Some lesser graphically intense games could use shared resources on a custom hypervisor they built, but Steve Pearlman is on record stating that higher end PC titles (which mind you were running only at 720p on medium settings) required a 1:1 player/server (with dedicated CPU/GPU/RAM) in order to function correctly.

Shared resources, hypervisors, and all the elaborate tools someone like VMWare offers doesn't translate much at all when it comes to streaming video games. The biggest accomplishment that OnLive and Steve Pearlman did was inventing a very efficient protocol to trasmit frames, mouse/keyboard clicks. Very similar to what Citrix invented in the mid 1990s (ICA, later licened by MS and called RDP), just built from the ground up to stream video. Unfortunately for OnLive, the magic stopped there and the reality sank in that in order to serve up virtual content for in demand games, they needed that 1:1 back end footprint in the data centers. This is also why it took so long for them to start signing licensing deals for day 1 releases. They had to invest millions building data centers and by then it was too late. That and Steve was a buffoon and made a ton of mistakes near the end.

Gamestop bought a company that does something similar to OnLive... and you know where it is? I don't know, I was hoping you could tell me lol. Gaikai, prior to the Sony buy out had optimized their protocol even better than OnLive. But without a Sony buy out, Gaikai would have faced the same troubles. I would argue that Sony bought Gaikai for other reasons, like the OP says.. for integrated cloud services for social platforms etc.. things they can easily host in data centers and an affordable cost. But not for streaming video games, PS1, PS2, PS3 or PSN games.

Microsoft? Where are they in the cloud arena? Well, for 1 they've been in the "cloud" since the mid 1990s when they struck a deal with Citrix to buy Terminal Services and implemented it into Windows NT. Dave Cutler the guy who then practically invented Windows NT (which for those of you know dont' know turned into Wndows Server OS line), later when on to practically invent Azure.. which is Microsofts newest home grown cloud service that does things the competition can't. Oh and speaking of Dave Cutler, he was moved from the Azure team (when it was done) onto the Xbox division to work on cloud service and platform integration there now. Thats uh, thats pretty big news to say the least. The father of Windows Server OS's, and a cloud guru working specifically on Xbox.

Cloud is here to stay, but in different forms than some on GAF might be expecting. Do not expect streaming video games, at best that MIGHT be setup for just game demos on the fly (w/o needing to download them). Where you'll see the "cloud" on next gen gaming platforms will be with network connectivity, software as a service, and platform unification. Seemless features built into the console OS's that will function the same on several platforms, and just "work". Where Microsoft has the advantage is this is their home turf. They've been developing this technology for 20 years and its their bread and butter. If MS offers these kind of features they will all combine to feel as "one" service (Live). Everything will just "work" and flow, and operate like it was designed that way from the ground up. Where Sony may offer similar capabilities they will lack in uniform integration and services on the PS4 may feel independent, disconnected and suffer from not being architected together from the first line of code. What I mean is, Microsoft envisioned, designed and birthed Azure, Sony bought Gaikai.

I suspect that will be evident on these next gen consoles.

We'll find out soon enough.

As someone said earlier, I believe Gaikai was in a better position wrt virtualisation than OnLive.

And obviously as boxes become more powerful the number of sessions that can be put on a box increases and running costs will come down.

In terms of PS3 games, any (third party) PS3 games to be delivered by cloud would have to be relicensed. I would guess that part of that relicensing would involving using a PC version of the game if available, so that it (or a slightly modified version thereof - with PSN trophy support etc. ) can be put on their virtualised PC hardware rather than on a '1:1' PS3 setup. That would cut down significantly on the amount of PS3 hardware they'd need.

That said, I'm not convinced they WILL do this, but I'm also not convinced they CAN'T do it. We shall see.

I'm in agreement. It can be done, but I don't think it will. But I think the biggest thing that would prevent them is retooling Gaikai's current infrastructure for a PS3 type infrastructure would not really be worth it cost-wise for Sony.
 
I'm surprised the leak didn't just say outright that there's going to be no BC. Full stop.

I really don't think BC is going to happen at all for PS4. With the Cell chip removed. It's a certainty.
 
I'm surprised the leak didn't just say outright that there's going to be no BC. Full stop.

I really don't think BC is going to happen at all for PS4. With the Cell chip removed. It's a certainty.

You are probably right.

You know, I'd say it's been a safe bet that PS4 wouldn't have BC since it was gutted from the PS3 in 2007.

PlayStation having BC was a Ken Kutaragi-style mandate...
 
Hopefully it can be turned off. I want to play my games at peace.
Hopefully it's not intrusive while you're playing and you won't have to turn off anything. I enjoy trophies but I'd like an option to disable the pop-ups when you get one. Have them come up when you bring the ps menu while in game or something...
 
Seriously, sticking a cell + xdr + cooling solution + larger more complex curcuit board in the PS4 would add at least $100 USD to the price. Ok, they'll probably lose some sales because of no BC, but they'd lose way more if the launch price was $500 or $549 with BC.

Besides, how much of Nintendo's hardware budget went to BC? Maybe if they put that money into a better cpu/ram, the uptake of the console would be better.

I'm still hopeful they can make many of the psn games work on the ps4. I'm certain they will be able to run most of the ps1&2 games, and probably some ps3 games.
 
Not everyone had a PS3, not everyone has only had Playstations in his life and hence easy access and space for all his past consoles, not everyone's PS3 might still work. Shit, Sony of all companies should offer full BC back to PS1. Even if Nintendo had the right innards for their console, all of them had different button layouts, buttons featured and generally different traits when it came to their controllers, so there's an excuse for not fully BC. If Sony most likely keeps their shitty stone age controller design, I should at least also be able to pop in my stone age games and play them.

No PS4 purchase then for me until the end of the gen probably. (And most likely never if they go some dumb online-only, no second hand route)
 
PlayStation having BC was a Ken Kutaragi-style mandate...
Ironic when you think about it. Him wanting to make these crazy convoluted systems is a big reason BC's been a pain for Playstation past the first system, had the design philosophy of that been retained I imagine BC on the PS4 wouldn't even be a serious question.

And what I'm HOPING for with PSN is that they make it easy for developers to port games over to Orbis. Of course support would probably still be really damn spotty.
 
Hopefully it's not intrusive while you're playing and you won't have to turn off anything. I enjoy trophies but I'd like an option to disable the pop-ups when you get one. Have them come up when you bring the ps menu while in game or something...
They don't bother me, as they're related to the game, and they let me know I've managed to get a trophy I might have sought for. Friends bothering me onscreen while playing would break the immersion completely, and annoy me to no end.
 
Not everyone had a PS3, not everyone has only had Playstations in his life and hence easy access and space for all his past consoles, not everyone's PS3 might still work. Shit, Sony of all companies should offer full BC back to PS1.

If I were Sony, thinking about these types of consumers would make me kill BC right quick. All these people who never bought a PS3 or other PlayStations? These people have never paid us a cent, and we should definitely hide our old games behind a paywall on PSN.
 
I'm surprised the leak didn't just say outright that there's going to be no BC. Full stop.

I really don't think BC is going to happen at all for PS4. With the Cell chip removed. It's a certainty.

My sources agree that current information points to no Cell, but no one is using final silicon. Hell I doubt the Durango dev kits even currently have DME's in them, probably not until final kit.

Seriously, sticking a cell + xdr + cooling solution + larger more complex curcuit board in the PS4 would add at least $100 USD to the price. Ok, they'll probably lose some sales because of no BC, but they'd lose way more if the launch price was $500 or $549 with BC.

Besides, how much of Nintendo's hardware budget went to BC? Maybe if they put that money into a better cpu/ram, the uptake of the console would be better.

I'm still hopeful they can make many of the psn games work on the ps4. I'm certain they will be able to run most of the ps1&2 games, and probably some ps3 games.

Jesus Lord, you don't need Cell + XDR. Cell at 45nm uses less than 20w and Sony even has designs for "Cell" to plug into a crossbar... that ALREADY EXISTS in the PS4.

Their largest cost would be producing the chip, implementing it into the PS4 would be dirt cheap.
 
Not everyone had a PS3, not everyone has only had Playstations in his life and hence easy access and space for all his past consoles, not everyone's PS3 might still work. Shit, Sony of all companies should offer full BC back to PS1. Even if Nintendo had the right innards for their console, all of them had different button layouts, buttons featured and generally different traits when it came to their controllers, so there's an excuse for not fully BC. If Sony most likely keeps their shitty stone age controller design, I should at least also be able to pop in my stone age games and play them.

No PS4 purchase then for me until the end of the gen probably. (And most likely never if they go some dumb online-only, no second hand route)

You should have bought a PS3 if you wanted to play PS3 games.
 
Everytime I hear "cell processor", I remember how the name originally refers to the fact that it could apparently network with other cell devices for an increase in power (including non-gaming devices - ie cell-equipped refrigerators?). What a pipe dream!
 
Everytime I hear "cell processor", I remember how the name originally refers to the fact that it could apparently network with other cell devices for an increase in power (including non-gaming devices - ie cell-equipped refrigerators?). What a pipe dream!

You thought your refrigerator would talk to your PS3 when you bought it?
 
You thought your refrigerator would talk to your PS3 when you bought it?

Oh I didn't think so.

But such functionality was implied as part of the magic of cell when it was first explained (Not necessarily "refrigerators". More like TVs and such, really).

"It can work in tandem with all kinds of other cell devices!" There were diagrams of this, circa 2004/5.

In retrospect: what other cell devices? :P
 
If I were Sony, thinking about these types of consumers would make me kill BC right quick. All these people who never bought a PS3 or other PlayStations? These people have never paid us a cent, and we should definitely hide our old games behind a paywall on PSN.

Second point is more about that it's not as convenient as some make it out to be to ,,just pack out your old console'' if you actually had multiple systems each gen. BC for at least the gen before should be fucking standard anyway, not least to reduce changing your currently plugged consoles all the time at least minimally. Especially when the gen starts, you might still play through games from the gen that's just ending...
 
Everytime I hear "cell processor", I remember how the name originally refers to the fact that it could apparently network with other cell devices for an increase in power (including non-gaming devices - ie cell-equipped refrigerators?). What a pipe dream!

That's what HSA (AMD's roadmap) is all about.
 
Everytime I hear "cell processor", I remember how the name originally refers to the fact that it could apparently network with other cell devices for an increase in power (including non-gaming devices - ie cell-equipped refrigerators?). What a pipe dream!

Sony have quite a history for that.
Remember the Universal Media Disc?
 
the hell??

I was just watching the news (spanish public TV channel) and it reported Nikkei has published that the next Playstation home console will be released this fall at 320€ aprox.
 
the hell??

I was just watching (spanish public TV channel) the news and it reported Nikkei published the next Playstation home console will be released this fall at 320€ aprox.

Asahi reported it would release this year in Japan/US for 'over 40,000 yen' (which would be around 320 euros).

That won't be the euro price, of course :P Take the US price and turn the dollar sign into a euro sign and that'll be it.
 
Sony have quite a history for that.
Remember the Universal Media Disc?
Admittedly UMDs as anything other than a game format was a pipe dream from an era before the idea of digital distribution firmly took hold: buying a separate format JUST for portable watching was clearly doomed even then, the advent of iTunes and other services just ensured it was a dead end relative to something you could use on whatever. Now maybe if this was a small, super high density format that'd be useful for home players too it'd have gone somewhere, but it was just a DVD derivative.
 
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