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[AltogetherAndrews]

Not at all. Rubberbanding is a crutch to compensate for poor AI. Respawning enemies, if they commit any sin, artificially lengthen a game's play time.

Viewed from a limited perspective, sure, which would place you roughly in the same category as the OP, if one was to use your standards. Rubberband A.I. may be viewed as cheap, but it also allows for the game to keep the player in the thick of the action, something that is a necessity for action orientated racing games like Burnout and MotorStorm.

 

[tanod]

theBishop, I can see what you are arguing and I agree that no game deserves a free pass. But, people are allowed to look over what others would (legitimately or not) call flaws to see a great game underneath.

Calling it the end-all be-all best action/whatever game EVAR is their opinion and is obviously not something that "everybody" shares. It is a sacred cow because of the number of people that do believe that, but it's not a double standard.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

-Most of the Boss Fight designs
-Camera
-Art Direction
-Story/characters


All problems i have with Ninja Gaiden

it would've been a bad game if it was'nt for the awsome Combat system

 

[Mrbob]

-Most of the Boss Fight designs
-Camera
-Art Direction
-Story/characters


All problems i have with Ninja Gaiden

it would've been a bad game if it was'nt for the awsome Combat system

Madden is a bad game without the football too.

 

[tanod]

You would relish the back cargo room in Sigma. They did away with all that annoying crate jumping to get the items and a mere couple enemies to fight.

I absolutely loved that room. I beat it on the first try with a sliver of health left.

So fucking cool.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

snip Original Post

The problem is Itagaki is still cribbing from Capcom's 1997 design sheets.

You know what I'm sick of? Arbitrary "puzzles" in these games.

I'm a totally fucking badass ninja and shit. WHY DO I NEED A HORSE SHOE TO OPEN A DOOR?! (Completely arbitrary example as well)

You know what I miss?

Contra, and the days of shooting the fucking door until it explodes; because you're so totally badass you don't need a god damned key! YOU HAVE SPREAD SHOT!

 

[Future]

None of this is "poor" design. The game is designed around being hard...so there are no checkpoints and respawning AI in certain sections. Yeah it's hard, but thats the point. It's not designed to be accessible. The only thing "terrible" in the game was the Bouncer stopping you from getting into the "party." You are a fucking Ninja..wtf

I never heard people complain about the respawns. You need them to help get cash when you are running low, and they make the backtracking more interesting. At the end of the day who cares...you can always run past the respawning AI and they dont follow you very far. The only part where I thought it became a little cheap was the section with the Skeleton archers on the upwards path in the ruins. Kill 2 archers, 3rd archer shoots you off, climb back up and all 3 are there again. That's just mean

The random "locking" of doors was a little lazy I admit, but no game has solved that issue yet. Every game like this comes up with random ways to lock you into fights that dont really make sense. The problem is your character always moves fast enough to run past enemies...so how do you make them stay and fight. Bioshock or any FPS are terrible comparisons, because it's much easier to pin the player with gunfire

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Madden is a bad game without the football too.

lol, excusses

 

[Draft]

Viewed from a limited perspective, sure, which would place you roughly in the same category as the OP, if one was to use your standards. Rubberband A.I. may be viewed as cheap, but it also allows for the game to keep the player in the thick of the action, something that is a necessity for action orientated racing games like Burnout and MotorStorm.

Except it's cheating. It's not like the enemies in NG start becoming immune to certain attacks if you get too good at fighting them. There is a clear difference between rubberband AI in a racing game and respawning enemies in an action game, and I refuse to believe that you don't understand that.

 

[theBishop]

You know what I'm sick of? Arbitrary "puzzles" in these games.

I'm a totally fucking badass ninja and shit. WHY DO I NEED A HORSE SHOE TO OPEN A DOOR?! (Completely arbitrary example as well)

this is another great example. I really thought we were past the Doom "Find the Blue Keycard" school of design.

 

[Mrbob]

this is another great example. I really thought we were past the Doom "Find the Blue Keycard" school of design.

So is this any worse than in Bioshock where you are told to find an alternate route to the kitchen in rapture, and amazingly you get a tape recorder right in front of the male/female bathroom that tells you a big hole has been blown in the wall on the male side that you can go through to reach the kitchen. I guess that is the type of superior level design you are looking for?

If you really want too, it is easy to see holes into game design.

 

[mrmrec2]

Madden is a bad game without the football too.

Nice:lol

NG is all about the combat, it was not a button masher, the respawning where a good opportunity to practice you moves, and since it was a RESPAWN you could skip them all together.

C'mon even if it took a while, once you mastered the block&roll followed up by a monster Izuna Drop how could you stop playing the damn game?

 

[Z3F]

Should have just kept this game on the Xbox. Sony fans won't appreciate a Xbox game even if it comes upgraded w/HD graphics because it wasn't a Sony exclusive. It's kinda like how hardcore Xbox fans held a grudge against GTA even though it was improved for the Xbox. Just check out the post histories and you'll see how the line is drawn. Once again. No point in dragging this out further.

 

[Draft]

Underwater levels and puzzle solving are both valid black marks on Ninja Gaiden. Most of the puzzles suck, and are either so easy they may as well not even exist, or so obtuse you really just keep doing random stuff until you find your way through.

I'm telling you, I'm capable of thinking about Ninja Gaiden objectively!

 

[theBishop]

So is this any worse than in Bioshock where you are told to find an alternate route to the kitchen in rapture, and amazingly you get a tape recorder right in front of the male/female bathroom that tells you a big hole has been blown in the wall on the male side that you can go through to reach the kitchen. I guess that is the type of superior level design you are looking for?

If you really want too, it is easy to see holes into game design.

what?

I didn't do it that way.

Looks like Bioshock is awesome again :lol

Spoiler

but seriously, this thread is not about Bioshock.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

this is another great example. I really thought we were past the Doom "Find the Blue Keycard" school of design.

This could also benefit the game design.

Say a hothead like me shoots the door down, then a bigger monster or stronger enemy force could be behind it; instead of just opening the door and then kicking the puppy in the room.

But what do I know? I don't pretend to be the missing member of Aerosmith. :\

 

[Gigglepoo]

Madden is a bad game without the football too.

Um... what? There are other elements in Ninja Gaiden, like story and level design, which are bad. If you aren't actively fighting, the game is pretty lousy. You don't see that as a problem?

The game should be a straight forward, completely linear experience where all you do is fight. Team Ninja has proven they don't understand the finer points of game design. I don't know why they feel the need to artificially inflate the length of the game by making players backtrack and solve horrible puzzles.

 

[mrmrec2]

"I'm telling you, I'm capable of thinking
about Ninja Gaiden objectively"!

 

[Mrbob]

what?

I didn't do it that way.

Looks like Bioshock is awesome again :lol

Spoiler

but seriously, this thread is not about Bioshock.

I really enjoyed the Bioshock demo. I will have a great time with the game when I get it. All I'm saying is it isn't hard to find issues with level design if you really want too in any game. No game is perfect.

Besides, the Bioshock fanboys might as well live it up now. This is Bioshock in 2010 when the new hawtness comes out.

 

[Hunter D]

I can't see why people have a hard time understanding what NG is. It's a that is a mixture of 2d and 3d design philosophies. Every NG game has had respawning enemies. Why not have it in 3d NG where the fighting is the main draw?

 

[Odrion]

So is this any worse than in Bioshock where you are told to find an alternate route to the kitchen in rapture, and amazingly you get a tape recorder right in front of the male/female bathroom that tells you a big hole has been blown in the wall on the male side that you can go through to reach the kitchen. I guess that is the type of superior level design you are looking for?

Yes, it's a lot worse than that.

 

[Z3F]

I can't see why people have a hard time understanding what NG is. It's a that is a mixture of 2d and 3d design philosophies. Every NG game has had respawning enemies. Why not have it in 3d NG where the fighting is the main draw?

Because that's not really the issue here?

 

[blackadde]

bioshock and ng are totally disparate views on game design. bioshock attempts to suspend your disbelief through atmosphere, backstory, rich lore, etc. it attempts to balance a number of things in order to maintain the illusion of a living, breathing world. ninja gaiden is about doing a very singular thing - fighting - and doing it as well as possible. for a number of people (or at least for me) that was enough.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Except it's cheating. It's not like the enemies in NG start becoming immune to certain attacks if you get too good at fighting them. There is a clear difference between rubberband AI in a racing game and respawning enemies in an action game, and I refuse to believe that you don't understand that.

Bullshit. If it's "cheating", then it is cheating for the same base purpose as respawning enemies during backtracking and exploration scenarios, which is to keep the action going at the expense of realism. For a combat focused game such as Ninja Gaiden, keeping the combat going is important. But this is precisely what rubberband a.i. works to achieve in games like MotorStorm and Burnout; these are action games first and racers second, meaning it's crucial to the base format that the action remains focused in your vicinity. And as said, this is common point of grief for a lot of people, so I fail to see why games such as Ninja Gaiden should be given a free pass considering that they employ their own methods to reach the same goal, and at the same cost.

 

[USD]

There are some legitimately badly designed areas, and Ninja Gaiden is certainly far from perfect. But what I look for in an action game is different from what I look for in other genres. It's why I say that God of War is a better "game" than NG, but NG (along with DMC, GH) is the superior action game. The game focus its strong point and (usually) plays down its weaker ones, and I can't fault it on that (though I do expect the extra stuff to be better thought-out the next time around).

 

[Draft]

Bullshit. If it's "cheating", then it is cheating for the same base purpose as respawning enemies during backtracking and exploration scenarios, which is to keep the action going at the expense of realism. For a combat focused game such as Ninja Gaiden, keeping the combat going is important. But this is precisely what rubberband a.i. works to achieve in games like MotorStorm and Burnout; these are action games first and racers second, meaning it's crucial to the base format that the action remains focused in your vicinity. And as said, this is common point of grief for a lot of people, so I fail to see why games such as Ninja Gaiden should be given a free pass considering that they employ their own methods to reach the same goal, and at the same cost.

I mean, I don't think it's particularly difficult to draw a comparison between Ninja Gaiden and say Motorstorm in terms of how AI affects the encounter. Like say one fight in Ninja Gaiden (ie- you enter a room and kill enemies until they stop coming) is equivalent to a race in Motorstorm (ie- you wait for the green light and race 3 laps.)

Rubberband AI has a clear, detrimental effect on your race. It negates your efforts in the race by giving your opponents an unfair advantage. The AI is not smart enough to use the boost, or the terrain, or whatever to be a decent opponent, so it's allowed to just skip huge tracks of the course to keep things exciting. There is nothing you can do to prevent rubberbanding, except I guess, to not be very good at the game. If you outplay the AI, it will cheat to stay competitive. That is lame.

NG AI, on the other hand, does not cheat. It has no special powers. It does not get to break the rules if you're too good. The cards are on the table, so to speak. If you outplay the AI, it becomes bloody chunks.

Boiled to brass tacks, Ninja Gaiden is about a fight, and Motorstorm is about a race. Respawns have absolutely zero effect on the outcome of an individual fight in NG. Rubberbanding is a pervasive design decision that affects every race in Motorstorm. They are not equivalent.

 

[mrmrec2]

I mean, I don't think it's particularly difficult to draw a comparison between Ninja Gaiden and say Motorstorm in terms of how AI affects the encounter. Like say one fight in Ninja Gaiden (ie- you enter a room and kill enemies until they stop coming) is equivalent to a race in Motorstorm (ie- you wait for the green light and race 3 laps.)

Rubberband AI has a clear, detrimental effect on your race. It negates your efforts in the race by giving your opponents an unfair advantage. The AI is not smart enough to use the boost, or the terrain, or whatever to be a decent opponent, so it's allowed to just skip huge tracks of the course to keep things exciting. There is nothing you can do to prevent rubberbanding, except I guess, to not be very good at the game. If you outplay the AI, it will cheat to stay competitive. That is lame.

NG AI, on the other hand, does not cheat. It has no special powers. It does not get to break the rules if you're too good. The cards are on the table, so to speak. If you outplay the AI, it becomes bloody chunks.

Boiled to brass tacks, Ninja Gaiden is about a fight, and Motorstorm is about a race. Respawns have absolutely zero effect on the outcome of an individual fight in NG. Rubberbanding is a pervasive design decision that affects every race in Motorstorm. They are not equivalent.

Pure Win


I agree no rubberband AI in the respawn. Once again in NG, if it's a respawn you can skip it, but if you have mastered a couple of moves with you weapon of choice, why would you?

 

[besada]

So why haven't I heard these complaints about NG?

Because NG is old as shit and shouldn't be compared to current generation games?

 

[Madman]

Respawning AI has a clear, detrimental effect on your completing of the level. It negates your efforts in the level by giving your opponents an unfair advantage.

Works both ways. Both are examples of what could be described as poor design, or human-A.I. balancing. Depends on how you look at it.

 

[Draft]

Works both ways. Both are examples of what could be described as poor design, or human-A.I. balancing. Depends on how you look at it.

Respawning is not AI. Jesus Christ, come on, man. You're just being deliberately obtuse now. I mean we went over this like 1 page ago. Those of us who appreciate the respawns are not looking at the levels as a step ladder to the final cutscene.

 

[MCD]

This is how you get raped tenderly in NGB.

fighting 3 Hell Knights at the same time.

 

[Madman]

Respawning is not AI. Jesus Christ, come on, man. You're just being deliberately obtuse now.

They are both examples of giving AI an unfair advantage over human players in order to balance the ability of the AI to compete with it's human opponent(s).

 

[tanod]

No matter how hard it is, NG has always felt fair to me so I don't have any complaints about that.

 

[Draft]

They are both examples of giving AI an unfair advantage over human players in order to balance the ability of the AI to compete with it's human opponent(s).

Disagree. There is nothing unfair about enemy respawns. It affords the enemy no advantage over the player, unless the player is so awful at the game that they are barely scraping though each room as it is, in which case they should probably quit and go play God of War.

If anything, it is a disadvantage to the AI, as it forces you to improve to the point where the respawns fall before you, like wheat before the scythe.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that respawns are critical to Ninja Gaiden's design. It is not a game where you can just mash continue over and over to eventually win. There are stretches between save points that are no less than epic, and someone without the skills has absolutely zero hope of completing those areas without the hard earned ability they master fighting the respawns.

 

[The Faceless Master]

And if so, should it really be forgiven in light of God of War and Heavenly Sword's more intuitive design choices?

1) the most threatening enemy in God of War is

Spoiler

getting out of jumping hell

2) dude have you played the heavenly sword demo? it sucks, and doesn't even look as good as sigma, a port of a 3 year old game!

 

[shantyman]

Why does Madden 08 get a pass? Bioshock is so believable and immersive, but Madden makes you backtrack (for instance, if you score once, you have to try again after you get the ball back) and is jarring when it goes from a sky cam to a field level cutscene.

 

[mrmrec2]

when are we going to get updates on NG2 for the 360? Someone give me atleast a screenshot, something.

 

[Oneself]

Can any of you knocking Team Ninja for using 'old design elements' suggest alternatives that would actually improve the game, rather than just being different (and quite possibly worse) for the sake of being different?

Having enemies respawn is the right design choice for a game that's heavily focused on combat.

I'd hate to see the kinds of games some of you would create if given the chance.

Uh, ok. I'd love to see the kinds of games you would create if given the chance. I would rent it at the very least. You quoted my comments, so to make you happy, I'm gonna do it. Will that be different for the sake of being different? You be the judge.

Ninja Gaiden could have tougher combat sequences but no reappearing enemies. Obviously, if there's a long "backtracking part", being ambushed by all-new enemies to keep up the pace is ok.

Ninja Gaiden could have used a different button on the controller to perform actions like opening a door, instead of using a frequently used button, like an attack button.

Ninja Gaiden could have a save system more like God of War, or the save system could differ based on the difficulty level you select. So playing on Easy would give you more frequent saves etc.

Ninja Gaiden could easily have a better camera system too. Again, choosing between different "cameras" would be a great option. (But it seems a bit too much for this kind of game since none, so far, gave us this kind of option.)

 

[Systems_id]

You would relish the back cargo room in Sigma. They did away with all that annoying crate jumping to get the items and a mere couple enemies to fight.


It turned into a huge open room with a small crate section at the back end, and enemies keep pouring in from all sides and you must use your skillz to fight through. You have the regular shock troopers (whatever they are called), the shock troopers with the shield, shock troopers with bazooka guns. You have to fight like 50 of them in the room to clear it, and it awards you with a life of the thousand gods after. This revamped section was so sweet, felt like a badass tearing through them all.

That is one of the good changes Sigma made. Instead of shitty, boring puzzles I get to decapitate more enemies.

If anything probably the biggest design flaw is the jumping, which made platforming about ten times more frustrating then it had to be. The Caverns still give me nightmares to this very day. Actually that reminds me of other design flaws like the sometimes unresponsive controls and broken targeting system. I can't count the number of times I'm trying to run on a wall only to have Ryu spazz out and try to go three different directions at once. As far as targeting is concerned, I also can't count the number of times I've been fucked over by it targeting a different enemy then the one I had in mind. This also has the added result of pulling off a different move than you intended. It works well when enemies are spread out but if they're bunched together then it can get nasty.

This is how you get raped tenderly in NGB.

fighting 3 Hell Knights at the same time.

Spamming counterattacks with the Dabilahro makes these guys a cakewalk.

 

[MCD]

@Systems_id

I hate counterattacking, i prefer to use the Dark Dragon Blade + roll back and attack.

but sometimes it doesn't work and then i get raped, tenderly.

 

[Barry Lightning]

i'll tell you what needs to end in game design: fighting ALL the bosses over again right before the final boss *cough*DMC3*cough*

this shit is PLAYED OUT

 

[MickeyKnox]

i'll tell you what needs to end in game design: fighting ALL the bosses over again right before the final boss *cough*DMC3*cough*

this shit is PLAYED OUT

Please die.
The boss gauntlet in DMC3 is a direct throwback to classic era Capcom gaming and I want more of it.

 

[Christine]

Super Mario Bros had a never-ending array of castles where Princess Toadstool wasn't.

Oddly enough, Nintendo didn't carry this tradition into the modern era.

Actually, they kinda did. But they provide a deus ex machina in the form of Koopa Jr.

 

[C- Warrior]

Please die.
The boss gauntlet in DMC3 is a direct throwback to classic era Capcom gaming and I want more of it.

Not to mention that you don't even need to fight them, you can just choose to fight 3 out of the 15. But naturally, considering how games are today that hand feed you everything, I don't think he realized this simple puzzle to bypass the bosses.

But then again, like most people who say DMC3 is too hard-- are just too fuckin stupid to expand their mind beyond mash mash mash, no continue -- argh, the boss iz beating me, I must mash button faster. I can't win, DMC3 suxx0rz. Huh? Use item? Strategize? Counterattack? What is that? Where is the QTE!? This game suxs.

 

[C- Warrior]

And if so, should it really be forgiven in light of God of War and Heavenly Sword's more intuitive design choices?

What > the > Fuck?

Hold on, ugh -- brain hurts, okay -- what the fuck was so intuitive about God of War? It simply casual-afied DMC's combat system, same free-form set up, "demon doors" blocking paths, a level up system, RED AND GREEN fuckin orbs, bosses, linear levels. It was DMC1 gone greek. Not to say anything beyond that, Jaffe even has admitted so.

And Heavenly Sword -- intuitive? You mean to say, a game where you jerk your six-axis like a wank-a-thon to initiate air combos and how you're detecting colors like it's a game of boom boom rocket to defend yourself is intuitive? For fucks sake dude...

Ninja Gaiden has a lot of problems sure, but don't say that and then go off and say GoW is intuitive...and Heavenly Sword -- holy shit dude, what the fuck? Heavenly Sword...so, QTE's, unresponsive combat, and color coded defense mechanics is intuitive. By the gods?!?!

 

[PleoMax]

So basically you want an action game for pussies. That's understandable, everyone knows Ninja Gaiden is hardcore.

If you ain't up to it, just stick to the more "intuitively" (Roflmao) designed God of War, or...as you mentioned...heavenly sword lol

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

What the heck?

I decide to not ignore Thebishop and in return he trashes Ninja Gaiden.
What did I do to deserve this?

 

[Gigglepoo]

As a matter of fact, I would argue that respawns are critical to Ninja Gaiden's design.

You think it is better to have backtracking, respawning enemies and pointless puzzles instead of a straight forward, non-stop action killfest? Team Ninja needs to strip the fat (puzzle, backtracking, story) and just focus on pure combat. That's what they know, that's all they know. To add these other elements is just frustrating, it's just a way to artificially lengthen the game. Respawns are only annoying if the level design is so amateur that players are forced to go through rooms multiple times.

 

[Llyranor]

I also dislike a substantial number of things in this game.

The camera sucks. The artstyle sucks. Some of the design (platforming, "puzzles", stupid tedious water level, ranged weaponry --> bosses during the tairon-on-alert mission) sucks.

The melee combat redeems all of it *completely*. Most satisfying combat ever. I have a love-hate relationship with this game.

I don't mind dying over and over again during a difficult satisfying battle. What I *do* mind is when I'm stuck having to repeat some jumps over and over again or have to mess around with the stupid camera to 'figure out' how to solve the "puzzles", or when I just die because of a cheap enemy because I'm stuck having to use ranged attacks against it. That's just frustrating. Give me a cool challenging battle that kicks me when I'm down and I'll get right back up and fight it all over again. Heck, I have a tendency to not save when I win an insanedly difficult battle after many many attempts and just reload to fight it all over again. Don't make me repeat crap that isn't fun.

I'm really glad I finished the campaign, which I am never going to replay ever again. It's too bad I won't be able to face more challenging battles there in harder difficulty, but the rest of the design is just too frustrating for me to go through it again.

Thank Zeus for Mission mode. Tons of scenarios focused solely on melee combat? Yes please.

But, of course, I've looking forward to NG2.

 

[Dave1988]

1) the most threatening enemy in God of War is

Spoiler

getting out of jumping hell

2) dude have you played the heavenly sword demo? it sucks, and doesn't even look as good as sigma, a port of a 3 year old game!

ARE YOU ON DRUGS!? Graphically the HS demo looks waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy better than 90% of Sigma.

Also while we are at it... this game needs a hard lock on! The lack of it really shows during boss fights (especially Awakened Alma and Spirit Doku).