How the hell is 3D Land an evolution of Galaxy? If anything, it felt to me like they were going backwards. Nothing more than a 3D version of the NSMB series. Not to mention that bland and boring straight line thing to go from level to level, rather than a nice hub world.
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Nintendo defends rapid release of new Mario games
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
How the hell is 3D Land an evolution of Galaxy? If anything, it felt to me like they were going backwards. Nothing more than a 3D version of the NSMB series. Not to mention that bland and boring straight line thing to go from level to level, rather than a nice hub world.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Do you disagree with what I said?
It's not even that the Mario world is overused (that's a main reason, though), it's the fact that it has gotten to the point where you can predict what they're going to do with each system.
Bare Basic release amount for Mazza on any Ninty console (Combining all add-ons/Digital shop storefronts.):
-"Mainline" game (platformers)
-Puzzle game (Various. Including: Dr., Cookie, Picross, )
From Snes on, you can add in the following for consoles:
-RPG
-Kart Racer (Both of these start on GBA for portables.)
-Character spinoff (starts on GB for portables.)
From N64 on:
-Minigame compilation (Portable starts at GBA
-At least two sports titles (also for portables, starting from GBC)
From GCN on:
-Miscellaneous (DDR, Fortune Street)
From Wii on:
-Series crossover (MASATOG, Sports mix)
So therefore following that and using some fridge logic, these are the rest of the Mario titles you can expect from WiiU and 3DS
WiiU:
-At least two more sports (Let's just say Jai-alai and American Football)
-An RPG (Nothing original mind you. Probably Paper Mario)
-A Mario Party
-Puzzle game (Dr. Mario Operation gamepad)
-Specific character spinoffs (Non platformer DK game, Wario Platformer)
-Miscellaneous (Mario Visual Novel?)
3DS:
-Character Spinoffs (Wario Ware/Platformer, Non Platformer DK game, Non Platformer Yoshi game.)
Forget new IP's for a second, the most recent new genre that's been attempted with the Mario world was some AR photo apps. 2nd most recent new genre? (that's not a different sport. Different sport would be sports mix) Itadaki Street DS. Out in 2007.
It's not as if there are no new genres that can be attempted by Nintendo for Mario. Off the top of my head: Tower Defense, Simulation, DOTA, FPS, Endless Runner, WRPG, Visual Novel... With a lot of these, Ninty already has done these genres better with other IP's, but that never stopped this series before; heck we've had 4 Ninty IP's that have had pinball titles. 4!
For example: There was a lot of buzz about PvZ: GW when it was revealed at E3 from GAF. People were interested in a FPS that didn't bathe itself in tropes, ParentGAF was interested in a kid friendly-FPS (That was the impression I got, anyway.) People wanted a change.
Now imagine if there was a Mario Laser tag FPS with striker's art style. Would the reaction to PvZ: GW mean that people want something like this? No one will ever know, because Ninty plays it safe with the IP that's a safe bet.
Bare Basic release amount for Mazza on any Ninty console (Combining all add-ons/Digital shop storefronts.):
-"Mainline" game (platformers)
-Puzzle game (Various. Including: Dr., Cookie, Picross, )
From Snes on, you can add in the following for consoles:
-RPG
-Kart Racer (Both of these start on GBA for portables.)
-Character spinoff (starts on GB for portables.)
From N64 on:
-Minigame compilation (Portable starts at GBA
-At least two sports titles (also for portables, starting from GBC)
From GCN on:
-Miscellaneous (DDR, Fortune Street)
From Wii on:
-Series crossover (MASATOG, Sports mix)
So therefore following that and using some fridge logic, these are the rest of the Mario titles you can expect from WiiU and 3DS
WiiU:
-At least two more sports (Let's just say Jai-alai and American Football)
-An RPG (Nothing original mind you. Probably Paper Mario)
-A Mario Party
-Puzzle game (Dr. Mario Operation gamepad)
-Specific character spinoffs (Non platformer DK game, Wario Platformer)
-Miscellaneous (Mario Visual Novel?)
3DS:
-Character Spinoffs (Wario Ware/Platformer, Non Platformer DK game, Non Platformer Yoshi game.)
Forget new IP's for a second, the most recent new genre that's been attempted with the Mario world was some AR photo apps. 2nd most recent new genre? (that's not a different sport. Different sport would be sports mix) Itadaki Street DS. Out in 2007.
It's not as if there are no new genres that can be attempted by Nintendo for Mario. Off the top of my head: Tower Defense, Simulation, DOTA, FPS, Endless Runner, WRPG, Visual Novel... With a lot of these, Ninty already has done these genres better with other IP's, but that never stopped this series before; heck we've had 4 Ninty IP's that have had pinball titles. 4!
For example: There was a lot of buzz about PvZ: GW when it was revealed at E3 from GAF. People were interested in a FPS that didn't bathe itself in tropes, ParentGAF was interested in a kid friendly-FPS (That was the impression I got, anyway.) People wanted a change.
Now imagine if there was a Mario Laser tag FPS with striker's art style. Would the reaction to PvZ: GW mean that people want something like this? No one will ever know, because Ninty plays it safe with the IP that's a safe bet.
Anticitizen One
Banned
Didn't have open world levels and the hubworld was a joke. Has everyone forgotten the Castle and surrounding areas in SM64? That place had a bunch of secrets and cool shit. Also SM64 let you change camera angles and in SM Galaxy your stuck with the camera pushed further away from you.
SM Galaxy was way too linear and I didn't like how random and thrown together the themeing of the levels were. There was no attempt at world building like in SM64.
Keep 'em coming Nintendo, I will play them all as long as they are released. Nowhere else can I find such tight platforming thats so enjoyable. I careth not about originality in presentation as long as you keep up the originality in level design and tightness in gameplay.
Seriously, the levels in NSMB U are amazing.... presentation is old hat but the levels are genious. Same with the Luigi add on content. Keep 'em comin I say.
Seriously, the levels in NSMB U are amazing.... presentation is old hat but the levels are genious. Same with the Luigi add on content. Keep 'em comin I say.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
There's literally no way you can successfully argue that "Nintendo innovation" is a myth.
Anticitizen One
Banned
A true sequel to SM64 would demand innovation and new concepts and ideas otherwise it would basically be a remake of the original.
The thing about original IP's is that it's new and different and likely to attract attention. All the Mario games can be wildly different from each other in terms of design, but on the surface, people who aren't interested in Mario will never be interested no matter how good the games are.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Please give me an example of a major Nintendo gameplay innovation of the last, say, 5 years.
I mean the best you can hope to do is say Skyward Sword, but a million motion controlled games have come out the same basic premise. The real innovation in modern gaming is coming through the use of the internet and merging of single and multiplayer, not through things like transparent pipes.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
All twelve games in Nintendo Land?
mario 3d land with gameplay built around 3d?
nintendo land is a great one. nothing like that one before
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
This has probably already been posted but.
Going by wikipedia
Donkey Kong 1981
Donkey Kong Jr 1982
Mario Bros 1983
Super Mario Bros 1985
Wrecking Crew 1985
Super Mario Bros 2 Japan 1986
Super Mario Bros 2 1988
Super Mario Bros 3 1988
Super Mario Land 1989
And this is just the 80s. So there was never a time when there were spaced out. But people love to bitch.
Going by wikipedia
Donkey Kong 1981
Donkey Kong Jr 1982
Mario Bros 1983
Super Mario Bros 1985
Wrecking Crew 1985
Super Mario Bros 2 Japan 1986
Super Mario Bros 2 1988
Super Mario Bros 3 1988
Super Mario Land 1989
And this is just the 80s. So there was never a time when there were spaced out. But people love to bitch.
...I don't know if I'm understanding your post correctly, but are you using the example of them being terrible at accurately marketing their game to think that there could be innovations on the way? It seemed like you saying that them needing to release another video to clarify the video camera control could mean that there is potentially other stuff they need to follow suit on?
Anyway, I get the sentiment anyhow that you're looking forward to the game and I'm gonna stop because I need sleep. But the main point I wanted to get across was that I found it disappointing that from what they've shown there will definitely be no huge innovations such as Sunshine -> Galaxy or SMW -> SM64, hell even SM64 -> Sunshine was at least interesting even though it wasn't that great. 3D Land was awesome because it forged its own path and now the flagship title is reusing its blueprint instead of pioneering, that's not so bad, I liked 3D Land but I feel its a wasted opportunity as Dave Meltzer said it doesn't motivate me to purchase a Wii U and I'm sure we're not the only 2 that feel that way.
Well regardless at the end of the day I'll look forward to seeing how the title does, the Wii U userbase hasn't quite hit its stride yet but 3D World does look like the style of Mario game that does sell, keen to see how it pans out.
Exterminieren
Banned
Yeah, about that...
Oh, and what games have done exactly what Skyward Sword did? I want examples.
Anticitizen One
Banned
Ummm there is a pretty big difference between the Donkey Kong games and Super Mario Bros dude. That's like including Marathon games in with the Halo series. You can probably throw out wrecking crew too and one of the SMB 2 games needs to be cut because they were released separately in different regions.
This is a poor analogy at best.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
I don't play motion controlled games. I'm sure there's many of them that exist that let you swing something to swing an on screen object though.
I don't consider interface changes to be gameplay innovations. Skyward Sword ultimately didn't bring an awful lot new to the table in terms of game design. For some people, perhaps the novelty of swinging around a remote control in their living room is enough to make the game feel fresh and new, but personally I'm not really impressed by things like that.
Galaxy I think was a great example of how you take existing game design but present it in a way that feels unique and new. Galaxy doesn't feel like Sunshine. But it's mechanically similar. That's ultimately what Nintendo should be doing, but instead they're keeping the feel the same while trying to add some different mechanics. All that does is result in some meaningless bulletpoints.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
So... changing the mechanics is meaningless bulletpoints but superficially changing the aesthetics is significant?
I don't even know how to respond to this.
Exterminieren
Banned
So... That's a no, then?
SS didn't just innovate in controls.
megabytecr
Member
That is to me an irresponsible way to put it given we have only seen very few levels and gameplay. People always repeat what they hear and pass it on as fact, then it all of a sudden everyone believes that.
I really hope that this is not the case and I at least will give them the benefit of the doubt until I see the final product, then I can judge it fairly.
Bending_Unit_22
Member
9 games in 10 years compared to, heck let's bring DK and Yoshi into this but leave the 3D ones out, 10 in 7 years (and 7 games in 3 years). The former is the heyday of 2D platformers, the latter I fear will be seen as the twilight of Nintendo. In the 10 year period after DKC3 there was 1 such game. In the 15 years from DKC3 and 3D Land there were 5. Pretty spaced out, more than I liked though.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
As someone who hates hub worlds, this is only a good thing.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Changing the mechanics without changing the design, yes. Controlling Mario in Galaxy feels like controlling Mario in Sunshine, mostly. Obviously without FLUDD. But the actual game design feels different, the way the levels are constructed was a massive change from the way 3D Mario worked in 64 and Sunshine. That's the way you keep a game feeling new and exciting while maintaining the IP. With the NSMB series especially, they've completely failed to do that. I liked NSMB2 and Wii. Fuck I even enjoyed playing NSMB on DS. But now, they release Wii U with a NSMB and I don't care enough to buy a console to play it because nothing about it seems like something I haven't already played. I've played Mario 3D Land. Why am I going to buy a new console just to play Mario 3D Land 2? There's no excitement in this kind of iterative design, and there's certainly nothing innovative in it.
Anticitizen One
Banned
I agree with you. People can bullshit themselves all they want 3D World plays the same as 3D Land. Ive played both World just adds HD graphics, co op, and different set of levels and bosses. Big whoop.
abstract alien
Member
Different mechanics are what matter the I'd say. Not to punt away theme and setting, but mechanics are certainly the most important part of change for a game, right?
Also, there really isn't anything else I've ever played that is like Skyward Sword. Not that I've played everything, but Wii Sports Resort is about the closest thing, and that doesn't even take into account the rest of the game.
Darth_Caedus
No longer canonical
This right here. The Wii U is struggling sales wise. A brand new Mario experience would entice gamers to buy the Wii U. This new one that they are releasing is basically the same thing you can get on a console you already own or a cheaper one. Wii U sales aren't going to increase much because of this game.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
Skyward Sword's structure totally changed from Twilight Princess. I don't see how you can just ignore them. Furthermore, why in the world does Nintendo have to reinvent the wheel with every installment of their franchises? People seem to expect radical changes in design from Nintendo, which, in my opinion, does speak of Nintendo's ability to innovate.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
But when your mechanics are "hey now a cat suit" it's really just meaningless. For Mario Galaxy it really felt like this amazing fucking game that everybody shit themselves over, not because it was doing anything incredibly new in terms of game design as such, but the way everything was put together and felt so condensed was so different compared to previous games. I already know how Mario 3D Land will play. I know it'll be a good game. I can't get excited about it.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Well the reason I ignore Skyward Sword is because I consider it a failed experiment. I will point to it as an attempt to do something new with the game design of Zelda, but I think they fucked it up, just like I think the "innovation" of revisiting the same dungeon over and over in Phantom Hourglass was a failure. I'm not going to give them props for bad ideas.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I understand the sentiment there, but it is rather irritating when people claim that "we've been playing Ocarina of Time for years" while ignoring the changes in design and mechanics or dismissing those changes entirely.
While I definitely see why 3D World isn't as exciting as Galaxy, I won't knock Nintendo for it. The way people describe Mario games as though they are all the same could be used to show that nearly every game in a given genre is just as derivative. I could say that every first person shooter is the same with different powers, guns, stories, and maps. I don't believe that, by the way; it was just an example to illustrate how anyone can ignore everything a game does differently to claim that it's all the same as a predecessor.
NeonZ
Member
Because they aren't selling themselves with story or graphic advancements - or even graphic style changes now that every Mario game seems to have adopted the bland NSMB look. So, of course people will look much more throughly at the gameplay since it's the only selling point.
Had these games sported completely new visual styles/design, you'd see a lot more people forgiving the lack of gameplay change.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Nobody gives a fuck that you don't like Skyward Sword.
Fox Mulder
Member
Yep.
People always whine about nintendo milking of franchises, yet hits like smash bros, Mario kart, and NSMB have always been released once on a platform. It's nothing like CoD or Assassin Creed games we get every single year.
It's just so interesting that so many Nintendo threads turns into Nintendoomed thread. Some people on GAF just love to hate the company.
As for Ninty innovation, I still consider the DS, Wiimote, and Gamepad innovations simply no one else did it before. Whether they worked or not is another matter entirely, but giving how motion control is now big part of Xbone and one of the selling point of the PS4 is Vita integration, I'd say not too shabby. Anyone saying they are NOT innovative is simply a hater, IMHO.
As for Ninty innovation, I still consider the DS, Wiimote, and Gamepad innovations simply no one else did it before. Whether they worked or not is another matter entirely, but giving how motion control is now big part of Xbone and one of the selling point of the PS4 is Vita integration, I'd say not too shabby. Anyone saying they are NOT innovative is simply a hater, IMHO.
abstract alien
Member
Oh I agree from that standpoint. From the current looks of it, the game just doesn't seem a lot different than the 3ds one. Though I loved it, I didn't want a sequel to it. That's the thing about this game though. It's a sequel, not a "new" game in the light of their usual introductory 3D Mario titles. I think it's looks great in that regard, with lots of additions on top of the established formula. This isn't what people wanted though, regardless of how good it turns out (likely excellent given the track record).
That's is my main problem with it. It's a sequel. They hyped us up, talking about Mario and E3, kept a tight lid on it...and it's just a damn sequel. I'm not sure what reaction they expected. I do think Nintendo gets an unfair shake most of the time, but I think this was something they could have avoided.
I'm saying that Nintendo is not trying to beat you over the head out of all the new or different things they are trying to do. So let's not take the absence of evidence as the evidence of absence.
Also tying on a phone makes me look really dumb instead of regular old dumb.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I actually said this same thing a few days ago. People are absolutely content with playing similar games as long as they offer something new in visual presentation. As far as Super Mario 3D World goes, I would be confident in saying that if you stuck the camera right behind Mario, the negative reactions would be lesser in volume. Change the graphical style to a Galaxy in Dolphin, and you'd get even less. I just think that's a little superficial. But then again, I also don't think Super Mario 3D World looks bland.
JoeyJungle
Banned
So... they're sequels?
Why do people keep lumping portable and home consoles together.
Not everyone that owns a Nintendo portable, owns the home console and vice versa.
They should never be lumped together when counting the amount of releases. They are/can be different audiences. So 2 Marios on portable, 2 on console seems like they are targeting what they feel is the right amount of Mario per device.
Not everyone that owns a Nintendo portable, owns the home console and vice versa.
They should never be lumped together when counting the amount of releases. They are/can be different audiences. So 2 Marios on portable, 2 on console seems like they are targeting what they feel is the right amount of Mario per device.