mambadragon
Banned
What's worse... obvious satire vs. "justified" killing?
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Nintendo has been making the same games since the 80s
- Thread starter skypunch
- Start date
What's worse... obvious satire vs. "justified" killing?
With what, this?
Is that seriously enough to make you think that more than half of Nintendo's demographic is on other platforms exclusively? That is extremely flimsy. That's only genre, and not enough evidence to even say that 3D Mario would sell twice as much, let alone Nintendo's other IPs. Do you really think that nobody who bought R&C already has a Wii U and SM3DW?
Some people say, "Nintendo just keeps making the same games over again! They need to change it up!"
While other people say, "Nintendo needs to stop changing it up and just make the same games they used to again! Just give me another Super Metroid/Metroid Prime/Mario 64/Star Fox 64/whatever else!"
I just find that funny. Nintendo pretty much can't win with everyone, because people can look at Nintendo doing the exact same thing and come away with some saying they're changing too much and others saying they're not changing enough.
Anyway, I like Nintendo games specifically because they don't chase after the current market trends and do the same things everyone else is doing. I can get those other kinds of games anywhere else, but the only place I can get Nintendo-like games is Nintendo. Nobody else is producing larger budget, full-priced platformers anymore. The entire genre is basically indie and low budget downloadable titles, and Nintendo. Nobody else would've made games like Splatoon or Kid Icarus Uprising. Nobody else does weird stuff like Wonderful 101 or Rhythm Heaven.
That said, it couldn't hurt for them to branch out a bit more. Make more new IPs like Splatoon, or even complete reinventions of old games like Kid Icarus Uprising. Work with western studios to provide more new games like Metroid Prime, which I felt combined Nintendo-like design with western sensibilities. Put voice acting in Zelda. Stuff like that.
While other people say, "Nintendo needs to stop changing it up and just make the same games they used to again! Just give me another Super Metroid/Metroid Prime/Mario 64/Star Fox 64/whatever else!"
I just find that funny. Nintendo pretty much can't win with everyone, because people can look at Nintendo doing the exact same thing and come away with some saying they're changing too much and others saying they're not changing enough.
Anyway, I like Nintendo games specifically because they don't chase after the current market trends and do the same things everyone else is doing. I can get those other kinds of games anywhere else, but the only place I can get Nintendo-like games is Nintendo. Nobody else is producing larger budget, full-priced platformers anymore. The entire genre is basically indie and low budget downloadable titles, and Nintendo. Nobody else would've made games like Splatoon or Kid Icarus Uprising. Nobody else does weird stuff like Wonderful 101 or Rhythm Heaven.
That said, it couldn't hurt for them to branch out a bit more. Make more new IPs like Splatoon, or even complete reinventions of old games like Kid Icarus Uprising. Work with western studios to provide more new games like Metroid Prime, which I felt combined Nintendo-like design with western sensibilities. Put voice acting in Zelda. Stuff like that.
timetokill
Banned
dreampeppers99
Member
To me 3D Land feels like a more logical iteration on 2D Mario than Mario 64 or Galaxy (which feel like their own tangent). 3D World just feels like a more high-end iteration of that. That's perfectly fine. I wanted more 3D Land when I finished 3D Land.
Plus, the new powerups in 3D World really do feel like fun new additions to Mario gameplay. The clone Mario in particular is something I'm not sure could have been done on lesser hardware.
Plus, the new powerups in 3D World really do feel like fun new additions to Mario gameplay. The clone Mario in particular is something I'm not sure could have been done on lesser hardware.
activatethesmile
Member
I don't understand the infatuation with "new IPs" as if they're some sort of shining beacon of innovation or something like that.
Nintendo's gameplay change from, say, Mario Sunshine to Super Mario Galaxy is a lot more innovative and fresh compared to various "new IPs" where all you do is shoot people in some grim-dark world.
And for the OP to use Fallout 4, of all things, to have a "compelling narrative", heh.
Nintendo's gameplay change from, say, Mario Sunshine to Super Mario Galaxy is a lot more innovative and fresh compared to various "new IPs" where all you do is shoot people in some grim-dark world.
And for the OP to use Fallout 4, of all things, to have a "compelling narrative", heh.
RomanceDawn
Member
I wouldn't mind Nintendo taking on games with narrative as the focus but the older I get the more i realize just how full of crap video game stories are.
I used to be intrigued by Resident Evil. Like everything about it was just like "woah tell me more!" Then I started paying attention to the details that weren't even that small. What a mess that whole story between games is. There is like no consistency in regards to anything with plot hole after plot hole after plot hole.
Metroid used to capture my attention too, then I found out all those Primes don't count and that coupled with Other M just made me realize that companies aren't as concerned with continuity as I am. So I just can't take games with most any narrative too seriously. I can enjoy them while they are happening but usually I find myself wanting to skip cut scenes and just get to the game already.
Also I suppose I'm one of those guys who thinks if everything is cool then nothing is cool. So when a story starts and its supposed to be some edgy cool god knows what and thats pretty much all I see, all I do is roll my eyes. When Donkey Kong is falling from the sky and lands inside a crashed airplane and he busts out beating his chest I am grinning from ear to ear and beating my chest too!
I used to be intrigued by Resident Evil. Like everything about it was just like "woah tell me more!" Then I started paying attention to the details that weren't even that small. What a mess that whole story between games is. There is like no consistency in regards to anything with plot hole after plot hole after plot hole.
Metroid used to capture my attention too, then I found out all those Primes don't count and that coupled with Other M just made me realize that companies aren't as concerned with continuity as I am. So I just can't take games with most any narrative too seriously. I can enjoy them while they are happening but usually I find myself wanting to skip cut scenes and just get to the game already.
Also I suppose I'm one of those guys who thinks if everything is cool then nothing is cool. So when a story starts and its supposed to be some edgy cool god knows what and thats pretty much all I see, all I do is roll my eyes. When Donkey Kong is falling from the sky and lands inside a crashed airplane and he busts out beating his chest I am grinning from ear to ear and beating my chest too!
activatethesmile
Member
Also, apparently it's already mid 2016 and people are still using "Nintendo is for the kiddie!" thing to support their arguments.
Wii and DS were risks. Wii U and 3DS were not. Looking back, I think Nintendo lucked into Wii's success and couldn't sustain it after some years. Wii U's failure is proof of that. They could not retain anyone they gained from the Wii except for the few diehards. They were grasping for straws. They probably still are on the console front. Sad to say, Wii was an enormously successful fad that they couldn't roll over.
DS/3DS? I will never question Nintendo's hold on the portable market, but phones are starting to/have been putting the squeeze on them.
Catering towards 12-35 males may be safe, but on the console front, they seem to be the only ones buying hardware. Kids definitely aren't. I haven't seen any statistics on Women. Would love to see them. =x
Shame that it isn't even accurate. Kids left Nintendo years ago.
DecoReturns
Member
As long as Link is still mute.
Well said.
Except Link shouldn't talk
Oh yeah, Link shouldn't talk. But everyone else should. Silent protagonist with voice acting for everyone else has worked fine in lots of games, like Half-Life, Bioshock, and Dishonored, so I'm sure Nintendo could make it work in Zelda.
timetokill
Banned
CaviarMeths
Member
People who complain that the Wii U has no diversity in software, I get the feeling that they bought the system, played the few Mario-related games that came out around launch, and then haven't touched it since. Or didn't buy the system at all.
Or they jump through hoops to explain why a dozen or so new IPs and a handful of games produced by Nintendo "don't count." That I'll never understand though. I have no idea why detractors don't want to admit that Xenoblade is 100% a Nintendo game.
Or they jump through hoops to explain why a dozen or so new IPs and a handful of games produced by Nintendo "don't count." That I'll never understand though. I have no idea why detractors don't want to admit that Xenoblade is 100% a Nintendo game.
Yea I've never understood how Nintendo can get away with making the same games with the same characters year on year. The games are pretty good but where is the creativity? It seems like companies like Rare and Capcom were producing some of their best titles at one point and now that they are gone it's really showing how limited Nintendo's franchises really are. Mario, Zelda and the gang have basically been in the same games their whole life, some are even the exact same setting/game basically a remake but because the technology had advanced so much it allowed Nintendo to tell the story in a different way.
I think the time has come though as now that 3rd party support has mostly all but gone it's up to Nintendo to innovate and go full steam ahead. If they survive with the NX then I don't think anything will ever keep them down, if they fail however....I kinda see the NX as their last console.
I think the time has come though as now that 3rd party support has mostly all but gone it's up to Nintendo to innovate and go full steam ahead. If they survive with the NX then I don't think anything will ever keep them down, if they fail however....I kinda see the NX as their last console.
Astral Dog
Member
Yea they arent even hiding it with the last 2D Mario game, total asset reuse
I'm hoping part of the reason Zelda is taking so long is because the rumors of NPCs having voiced dialogue is true. And along with that comes side stories that are far beyond those of previous Zelda games involving characters and a bit less collecting.
These are a real good group of words in a real good order.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Pfft. I Wish Sega kept making iterative versions of games since the 80s.
Can someone here actually elaborate on how Nintendo's franchise's are "always the same"? I never found this to be true at all unless you judge a game by its premise rather than gameplay mechanis. The original SMB is drastically different mechanically compared to SM64. If SM64 isn't different enough, then nothing in this industry is.
Pro from Dover
Member
Maybe all anyone really wants is to have something to relate to in a game.
I love Nintendo´s approach of gameplay first, awesome level design and a thousand layers of polish so as long as they keep doing that and giving us things like Splatoon, Xenoblade or Super Mario Maker, I see no problem. Games that forget they are games and are based on narrative are a sad joke to me.
How can you say that WiiU and 3DS weren´t risky, when one had to suffer a significant price drop shortly after release and the other is doing terribly?
zedreamcast
Member
It seems that this thread boils down to a whole bunch of entitlement "nintendo doesnt make the game that I like to play so they should make it for me cause"
Also im really confused cause i dunno what "nintendo makes" means in this context, like are we talking about first party or are we talking about third party exclusives??? Cause for the later you can throw in No More Heroes, Bayo 2, The World End With You, Ghost Trick Phantom Detective, yeah three of those got ported to other things but they all started as nintendo exclusives.
Ghost Trick Phantom Detective is probably the best written video game story ive seen in a long time. Also SMT and final fantasy started off as nintendo games, though they arent anymore...also Eternal Darkness was a thing.
Also im really confused cause i dunno what "nintendo makes" means in this context, like are we talking about first party or are we talking about third party exclusives??? Cause for the later you can throw in No More Heroes, Bayo 2, The World End With You, Ghost Trick Phantom Detective, yeah three of those got ported to other things but they all started as nintendo exclusives.
Ghost Trick Phantom Detective is probably the best written video game story ive seen in a long time. Also SMT and final fantasy started off as nintendo games, though they arent anymore...also Eternal Darkness was a thing.
But if you actually spent time with 3d world you would know the level tropes were mainly a hub wirld thing. The desert world only had one desert level in it.
http://www.mariowiki.com/World_2_(Super_Mario_3D_World)
http://www.mariowiki.com/File:World2-2.PNG
http://www.mariowiki.com/File:WiiU_SM3DW_10.01.13_Scrn07.png
http://www.mariowiki.com/File:WiiU_SM3DW_10.01.13_Scrn17.png
Would you look at these levels and automatically say yeah thats a desert trope? It really feels like topics like these are full of people that think lije this on a larger scale. They see a screenshot or two of a Nintendo game and act like they know exactly what it is becuse they played Mario 20 years ago.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Anti-gravity isn't really innovative when there have been whole racing games based off of the concept for years prior to Mario Kart 8. If you want to see a game that used anti-gravity in an innovative way, see Gravity Rush.
Wall-merging is a really cool idea but again, not groundbreaking. And as per your last example, yes I agree with it, and I feel that see through pipes come under this category. I don't understand why people are so keen to attach the word innovative to everything Nintendo does. It's a hyperbolic misuse of the word.
They've certainly innovated in some of the recent software, but a lot of their games recently have been extremely safe and iterative, with a splash of novel concepts. That's not to say they're bad games either. I love 'em.
This is exactly what I've been saying throughout this thread. I don't want them to stop making the games they're making. But I feel that if they want to reach a broader audience, they're going to have to branch out. I couldn't care less if they made more westernised games, but taking off my Nintendo fan goggles for two minutes, it's clearly something they need to invest in to stay relevant, because when you look at their Wii U output, it satiates a very niche subsection of the market. And that's not something a platform holder in Nintendo's position want to do. Not when their last console bombed despite having some of the best software they'v ever created. It's not the quality that's the issue, it's the actual types of games they're making.
texhnolyze
Banned
In a glance, perhaps I'm getting that vibe from Nintendo. They've been making Mario and Zelda games for eternity. Or games that are based on these IPs. But if you look more closely, they actually made new stuff as well.
I dont see how anyone cam claim that Zelda and Mario have been the same game for 30 years have played more then one game in the series? Nsmb is the only part i would consider tgis remotely true in. There have been 5 3d zelda games in 18 years and 6 3d Mario's in 20 years. Are you saying this is worse then what 4 uncharted's, around 5 resistance amd killzone games, 5 gears of war, 6 god of war, 11 ratchet and clank, so many cods and assassins's creeds that im not going to bother counting some of which have been around for a third of the time? If your logic is Nintendo games are all the same with 5 games in 2 decades what does that make the rest of modern gaming?
And please note I am not knocking these series I play some of them. I just really dont understand the logic used when criticising Nintendo when the output of 3d mario and zelda is so small comparatively. The gameplay is not even the same between most entries. With mario, 64/sunshine is totaly separate from galaxy1/2 as is 3d world/land. Zelda only has oot/tp as being very close and that was intentional after the backlash of windwaker being so diferent. I see similar arguments made for uncharted or early assassins creed but I never see those taken as seriously or given the limelight that Nintendo does and it gets frustrating seeing it week after week on here seemingly from people that have no intrest in Nintendo's output.
Naked Lunch
Member
Not only does Nintendo make the same games theyve always made - their best games are in the past. All new iterations are just a shell of their former selves. The classics are better in nearly every way. Its a case of topping out too early. The major downward slide hit hard with the Gamecube and then beyond - thats when it was blatantly obvious to me that all of their best work was the NES/snes era (and slightly some N64 stuff) - and thats what ill stick with.
So many people equate new IP to be success and being new, when many "new IPs" often don't provide much new. Many times it's the same thing as other series but with a different narrative.
Conversely, when Nintendo does new IP, they're different to what came before. Here's a few of Nintendo's new IP over the last 10 years
Dillon's Rolling Western
Sakura Samurai
The Wonderful 101
Wii Series
Splatoon
Pullblox
Steel Diver
Style Savvy
To name but a few, there are many more
All different from eachother. Not just the same genre as previous stuff, but with new story. The new IP is with the game, not the story.
Some were successful. Some were not.
New IPs are not guaranteed successes like analysts and people here think. New IP, over the last few years, has just become a buzzword to try and score points with the populace.
Mario Kart 8, by and large (aside from Battle Mode), is the best Mario Kart game ever.
Super Mario 3D World is amazing.
I could go on for ages
Their best games are not in the past. Maybe your likes have changed, but that does not mean that quality is not there.
mariosbrother
Member
I feel sorry for you.
well in 2015 when this was also a subject, i did some research and came up with a fairly/somewhat comprehensive list:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147183575&postcount=13
it's still missing maybe 4-10 games depending on what you're looking for. i think it's not bad for a decade, even if a lot of them weren't turned into franchises... although i don't think that's been a qualification before.
I haven't said they're groundbreaking, I'm just making the distinction between innovation and iteration. I understand completely what you're saying and want from Nintendo, but I disagree with your definitions.
Can you give me a link showing racing games with crazy 3D course designs? Like racing up vertically on a waterfall, taking alternate paths on walls that are 90 degrees to the ground or seeing your opponents upside-down above you.
And like I said previously, different people want different things. It's not that gamers demand groundbreaking gameplay to get back into Nintendo while fans have a lower standard bar or some ridiculous shit like that, it's about what Zelda fundamentally is that makes it unappealing. The "but it's the same each time" argument is another way of saying "I'm not a fan of puzzle games or games that use anime-ish artsyles". Don't be confused by the actual words people use. You either like something or you don't, if you do then you try to explain and generalize why that is and vice versa but it's usually not the true reason. All you have to do is take a peek at their games library and you'll see what they say and do is a contradiction, by owning say all AssCreed games or have all 5 Uncharteds in less than 10 years. Nintendo's problem isn't being safe, all AAA devs are safe these days.
I saw a new one in this thread; Nintendo is a for body pillow owning anime fans. Poor Vita, can't even keep its own stereotype as an exclusive.
What's the problem. He likes the older games better, so what.
the first group and the second one are both kinda right. they're making the same games with differences between each iteration, but Nintendo does kind of have it's style laid out in terms of their IPs and the brands associated with them even with the changes they make to them. It'll be great to see them deviate heavy with the NX while still having their Mario (Kart/Party/etc), DK, Metroid, Zelda, etc. series going.
Nintendo has a lot of interesting concepts released on their consoles but I think that comes from them having a strong Japanese fanbase with fanbases in other countries that export more than PS/MS fanbases and it reminds me of PS2 AA titles, but none of these are strongly attached to them or have a strong backing by Nintendo. W101 is unique but still screams Nintendo.
RE4 as an exclusive was a step in the right direction as was ZombiU. The problem also might be how third parties treat Nintendo consoles and how receptive their fanbase is to certain titles. GTA: Chinatown Wars should have been a lot bigger. Quality may have played a role, but Manhunt II should have been a lot bigger. Madworld and House of the Dead: Overkill should have been a lot bigger. I don't think any title aimed towards a different Nintendo audience has done well and I think publishers have just gave up.
Nintendo has carved out such a niche in their audience that it's a lot harder for them to push radically new titles in comparison to PS/MS. Afrika can do ~40k first week on PS3 with titles like the TLOU but Overkill can only do 45k with almost no competition.
It may work for them in some aspects because it seems like they have recently been creating either main handhelds or secondary consoles. Get a PS4/3/360/XB1 for certain titles and a Wii/Wii U for what you can expect from Nintendo - a certain type of quality games you can't get on those. Their consoles would probably appeal more if they branched out and lost certain restrictions like the ones they had on Splatoon that are incredibly archaic. But if they took the gameplay approach they did with Splatoon and tried it with something that was a lot more appealing to a general audience then they would probably have a decent amount of success. Nintendo is incredibly creative. If Nintendo would have made a horror game or an adventure game that tried to bring in a mainstream audience while still utilizing the unique aspects of the Wii U then they might have been better off.
As of right now, I'm one of those people that buy Nintendo consoles/handhelds strictly for the same games they've provided me all my life and don't really expect much else sadly. A Mario platformer here (it may change some big things from the previous one), a smash bros there, a little mario kart, some zelda and that's essentially it. If the NX is comparable to the PS4/XB1 in most ways then we may see a change, but I think a good portion of it effort falls at Ninty's feet. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if that PS smash bros clone took off or if LBP became more relevant than Mario titles or if any clone of their games had more success than they did. Zelda is the one interesting title in that in that it's still relevant in the age of The Witcher 3 or Mass Effect or numerous other well done RPGs.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Honestly, this is just a Complain Opinion. It's not even worth refuting.
So Nintendo, in your eyes, needs to change it up. But then you bring out the hyperbole guns such as 'since the 80s'.
So Nintendo, in your eyes, needs to change it up. But then you bring out the hyperbole guns such as 'since the 80s'.
This counter argument is just as speculative if not more so than the original. Yes, it is very likely that "Nintendos demographic" (what does this term mean exactly) can be on other platforms maybe even enough to more than double sales for a given title. It's really not that far fetched but there is no real concrete data because it hasn't happened. I would bet that a lot of people are interested in Nintendo games but they are not interested in investing in a Wii U. This doesn't mean that nobody that bought R&C doesn't have a Wii U but it means that people who bought a system other than a Wii U may be interested in SM3DW if the system they owned played it. All you have to do is look at titles that went multi platform that were once exclusive on other systems to see that sales can multiply substantially. Whether this is a good move for Nintendo is obviously debatable but both your points and the person you replied to are speculation. There is nothing absurd or laughable about either.
TheDinoman
Member
I think they should. From my understanding, once Namco Bandai sold their stocks to Nintendo, they became a full fledged first party developer. They're on the same level as Retro Studios and EPD. They aren't something like Treasure or Camelot, outside companies that just work with Nintendo from time to time. It's probably a factor into why Shulk got into Smash Bros. while characters like Isaac and Saki didn't.
Monolith even has a Kyoto division that's helped with the development of certain Nintendo games like Pikmin 3 and Animal Crossing: New Leaf.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
surprised this joke hasn't been made:
1985
2015
1985
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