Yeah.
As amazing as the graphics were at the time, the game has very poor gameplay. Miyamoto was correct in his opinion of the game.
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Nintendo losing its magic? Or are we just getting old?
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
Yeah.
As amazing as the graphics were at the time, the game has very poor gameplay. Miyamoto was correct in his opinion of the game.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
You're talking about why video game developers don't switch genres. Heavy is asking why don't they improve on things THEY ALREADY DO. They do try lots of storytelling, like in Skyward Sword and Other M, and it's terrible. It feels like something from the PS1-N64 era, where developers were still getting a hang of things.
If stories are keep being a big proponent of your game, why not...ya know...make them better? Or at least, why is he wrong for WANTING them to be better?
Eh, not really.
It's less evolution and more laterally applying core game design concepts to a much wider set of potential settings and scenarios. Then repeating whatever random combination you come up with X amount of times depending on how many regurgitated yearly sequels you want to make.
Really, I guess I'm just puzzled because there's so much complaining about Nintendo making the same games over and over again when some of the most beloved franchises this gen consist of [insert a dozen slightly different FPS franchises here] and Uncharted of all things. If there's one thing I've continually observed, it's that once someone finds somethig they like, they WANT that same thing over and over again. This is why you get so many complaints of a sequel being "too different" or the like.
Because it's not the identity of the company? Because it's not the way the designers and even the management at the company think of games? Because they have, for the most part, no interest in story-heavy games? They've kept this way of making games for 30 years and it hasn't done them bad, I think. They've been doing pretty well.
Why would they change their style if it works for them? Why don't I see these requests for other companies which do focus on story to start focusing more on other elements? How many risks are taken into consideration for a new God of War or a new Uncharted or a new Assassin's Creed or a new Final Fantasy?
Should a company suddenly stop focusing on their strengths and start taking unnecessary risks? Should Apple start focusing on lower-end cheaper devices, when their strength is in the opposite? Should all companies invest in everthing possible, so that they are not risk adverse anymore? Is Nintendo wrong for investing in their strengths?
What they should be doing is inovating WITHIN the realms of their strength, which, sincerely, are broad enough. They don't need to start suddenly trying to make a game like Mass Effect or Bioshock. Leave those to who know how to do them well. Nintendo should be focusing on what they do good, because no other company is able to replicate to the same extent what they do. The Wii has more than proven that.
I feel you want Nintendo to be something they are not.
TDLink
Member
Nintendo makes games in almost every genre out there. There are definitely a couple they do less often than others but they do have IPs that cover everything. That isn't to say that there can't be good games unless they are Nintendo, of course that is wrong. There has been a ton of great (both FPS and non FPS) output from many companies this generation. All I am saying though is you can't really say "some people are interested in genres outside of Nintendo" when Nintendo does in fact cover pretty much every genre. Nintendo is not just Mario and Zelda.
Nintendo has a tendency to focus on gameplay over story...which I don't mind at all because honestly no game out there can really compare to the best stories you can find in other entertainment mediums like film, television, and literature.
That being said, there are definitely games out there in which Nintendo has in fact put a focus on story to some degree. Mario RPGs, Golden Sun, Xenoblade, Fire Emblems, Advance Wars...to name a few.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I'm only a fan of the 2D style Mario games and Earthbound. I play with my friends SSB and Mario Party when I get a chance. Otherwise I don't mind the other Ninty franchises much.
So yeah. I didn't totally outgrew it but I don't play Ninty games as much anymore, only very rarely.
So yeah. I didn't totally outgrew it but I don't play Ninty games as much anymore, only very rarely.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Exactly. The answer is....It depends.
And lol @ this thread reading like people are having a breakup with Nintendo
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Not every new Nintendo game conjurs up the magic of yesteryear but you're getting too old if the Galaxy games are lacking that trait to you.
I can't remember having as much fun and being in such awe of level design and aethetics as when playing those games.
Not sure where they stand when it comes to best games of all time but they are two of the most fun/exciting games I have ever played.
I can't remember having as much fun and being in such awe of level design and aethetics as when playing those games.
Not sure where they stand when it comes to best games of all time but they are two of the most fun/exciting games I have ever played.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Precisely.
TDLink
Member
What are these games/series that you feel need better stories? Zelda and Metroid, is that it? Do you want more story in Mario, Donkey Kong, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, WarioWare, F-Zero and Star Fox? Are those games you really feel need more story? Would more story actually improve on these games?
As has been already said, Nintendo does have a handful of franchises with good story-telling I feel. The Mario RPGs, Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, Hotel Dusk, Another Code. Conveniently these are left out when people talk about story in Nintendo games.
It basically comes down to Zelda and Metroid. Metroid had it pretty good I feel with the Metroid Prime games. Other M story did suffer, though. It could indeed be improved upon, OR, reiterating my last post, they could take the Super Metroid route and focus on the gameplay instead of the story. They are much better at that, for sure.
About Zelda's story, are you basing this on which games? Skyward Sword? I don't get what's wrong with that game's story. It did what it needs to in a Zelda game: propel the game forward. I saw nothing wrong with the writing and dialogue. Please explain.
Palom
Member
I was soured by the N64. I bought the system and Mario64 on launch day, and really enjoyed it. But after two years, there hadn't been another game for the system that interested me, so I sold it and stopped supporting Nintendo. I'll touch on that a bit more. In about 1993, there was a HUGE issue with Nintendo censoring the Super NES version of Mortal Kombat. A lot of us that grew up on the NES were now old enough for these games in the arcade, but because of Nintendo's policies, the home version was "ruined" (ignoring the fact that the game played like crap). Even though they eased up on the censorship by Mortal Kombat 2 and Killer Instinct, the N64 represented, to me, a lack of moving forward; with its cartridge medium. (I recall reading one reason being that cartridges were more durable for children than CDs.) By 1997, then PS1 had exploded. I was out of high school and the PS1 was marketed as a "mature" system that I gravitated to. Nintendo fell by the wayside to me.
Now, after recently finally buying a Gamecube and a Wii, I haven't really enjoyed the Nintendo titles I've played all that much. Mario Sunshine became an exercise in frustration (so many quick, precision jumps ruined by the stupid backflip mechanic). I was bored of Animal Crossing relatively quick. I couldn't get into Wind Waker, but I will admit I haven't put much time into it so I can't really say as a whole I don't like it. New Super Mario Bros. Wii was, again, a frustrating experience. I ended up quitting after a couple dozen attempts on the final boss and had it play the end for me. Mario Kart and Wii Sports are kind of pointless since I don't have any gaming friends to play multiplayer with. I haven't gone back to the Metroid series (last I played was Super Metroid), but I don't like first-person games, so the Prime series don't interest me at all.
I'm not the type of person that gets a sense of accomplishment from failing over and over and then finally getting through something. I get frustrated and then resent what I've had to go through when I finally pass it. To me that seems to be the essence of what Mario games are: trial and error. A lot of people enjoy that, and that's perfectly fine. I don't. I don't even think it's a "bad" way to design games, per se, but it's just not for me.
I'm not going to pull the "kiddy games" card, either, because I honestly do enjoy "kiddy games." (I love The Sims games. I just finished Toy Story 3 and thought it was fantastic. I love the Lego games. I love Ratchet and Clank games.) But over the past 15 years, my gaming preferences and habits have changed, and Nintendo games just don't meet my needs anymore.
TL;DR: I don't think Nintendo has necessarily "lost its magic;" I just don't believe they're expanding as much as the market is. And honestly, I don't think any one company can. That is why third party support is important.
Now, after recently finally buying a Gamecube and a Wii, I haven't really enjoyed the Nintendo titles I've played all that much. Mario Sunshine became an exercise in frustration (so many quick, precision jumps ruined by the stupid backflip mechanic). I was bored of Animal Crossing relatively quick. I couldn't get into Wind Waker, but I will admit I haven't put much time into it so I can't really say as a whole I don't like it. New Super Mario Bros. Wii was, again, a frustrating experience. I ended up quitting after a couple dozen attempts on the final boss and had it play the end for me. Mario Kart and Wii Sports are kind of pointless since I don't have any gaming friends to play multiplayer with. I haven't gone back to the Metroid series (last I played was Super Metroid), but I don't like first-person games, so the Prime series don't interest me at all.
I'm not the type of person that gets a sense of accomplishment from failing over and over and then finally getting through something. I get frustrated and then resent what I've had to go through when I finally pass it. To me that seems to be the essence of what Mario games are: trial and error. A lot of people enjoy that, and that's perfectly fine. I don't. I don't even think it's a "bad" way to design games, per se, but it's just not for me.
I'm not going to pull the "kiddy games" card, either, because I honestly do enjoy "kiddy games." (I love The Sims games. I just finished Toy Story 3 and thought it was fantastic. I love the Lego games. I love Ratchet and Clank games.) But over the past 15 years, my gaming preferences and habits have changed, and Nintendo games just don't meet my needs anymore.
TL;DR: I don't think Nintendo has necessarily "lost its magic;" I just don't believe they're expanding as much as the market is. And honestly, I don't think any one company can. That is why third party support is important.
If I have to struggle to do a simple 180 turn or a wall jump, then that's bad controls. Simple movement shouldn't be something that has to be mastered.
I think the problem with Zelda may be due to trying to include cinematic narrative elements to please one camp, but also trying to keep them subdued enough to not alienate the other. This results in things being a little half-assed, and neither camp is served as well as they could be.
You should give them a shot. They're not without their flaws, but few people end up disliking them because of the first-person perspective.
This is a good synthesis, imo.
You should give them a shot. They're not without their flaws, but few people end up disliking them because of the first-person perspective.
This is a good synthesis, imo.
I see that point being made for Twilight Princess. But Skyward Sword improved a lot on the story telling. I'd say it's the same level of Ocarina at least.
What was half-assed about SS story?
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I haven't played most of the games TDLink just mentioned. Is he right? I don't remember hearing much praise for the stories of those games except for Xenoblade.
Zelda
Metroid
New IPs
And your first paragraph touches on a common misconception:
Just because those games are 'cartoony' or what have you, doesn't mean they can't have engaging stories with good writing and voice acting. You don't say it directly but that's the implication I got from those questions. There's no reason why Donkey Kong can't have a good story. Pixar films are loved by adults as well as children because they have good stories and characters. There's no way a good story, plot, and characters added to these games would make them worse. Some may prefer quick gameplay but they would not be objectively worse.
Metroid Prime series had amazing storytelling that didn't get in the way of gameplay. Zelda has just enough of storytelling that it doesn't feel too obtrusive. I strongly disagree, that even great writing and acting would benefit these games. Not to mention games like Mario... I'm just shaking my head at the thought.
They CAN have. But do they NEED to? That's what I've been asking the whole time. Isn't it a waste of resources for Nintendo to invest in "good" story for a Donkey Kong game? It's not the identity of the series, it's not the identity of the company. Consider that Nintendo usually only includes something in a game if it actually makes it PLAY better. If you've read any Iwata Asks, especially the ones with Miyamoto, you know that. Why would they include more stories to their games? It's not like the games are not great and don't sell shitloads already. They focus on innovating the gameplay, because that's what they're good at.
You expect from Nintendo something they do not provide. It's fine to have your tastes changed. I'm sure some other company provides this stuff you want.
About Metroid, are you basing this solely on Other M? We all know the game had a bad story. But it's one game. One. It's not "Nintendo sucks" because of one game. Have you not played the Prime series? What do you think of the storytelling in there?
... and about Zelda, I already asked above: what is wrong with Skyward Sword story? Why should it have even more story?
Everything!? I don't even know where to start.
Edit: Perhaps it's not even the story itself, but rather the way it is presented.
Do you really want a real story in a DKC title? I can't be the only one who was really annoyed by the story segments in SMG1 - and they weren't that bad. I just wanted to play the fucking game.
An epic story in Wario Ware sounds like awful idea, who'd even come up with that.
And games such as Starfox already have a neat story with some amazing voice acting.
The practical quesion is "why bother?" I could go into a long argument on story's role in video games but that doesn't really fit in this topic. All I'll say is that what's being put forth in this post is an unreasonable request.
I'm not talking about the story so much as I am the cinematic presentation of the story. Some of the cut-scenes were great, but quite a few were boring and repetitive. I really got tired of Fi's interpretive dance and especially the woefully awkward singing.
Well I'm mainly talking about their single-player experiences. The only game from Nintendo since the N64 era that's truly blown me away is Metroid Prime, which was mostly developed by Retro but Nintendo still had a heavy hand in it. Don't get me wrong, Nintendo still makes some damn good games but they aren't the "events" that they used to be and I hesitate to even say they're the best developers anymore. The Mario Galaxy games are good but just failed to grab me like previous Mario controls. I actually think NSWB Wii is the best game they've put out but the overly slippery controls got on my nerves after awhile.
I'd put Mario Galaxy 1/2 at the top of the top.
It's hard to be really blown away on old hardware. I know this is a redundant argument, but how amazed did you expect to be with their games on the wii when they weren't really exploring online or HD, current tech?
Metroid Other M and Animal Crossing for wii were the biggest offenders. Two games that, in my opinion, really hurt their franchises.
Are you talking about DKCR?
Because then I strongly disagree with this opinion. DKCR was an awesome game.
It's hard to be really blown away on old hardware. I know this is a redundant argument, but how amazed did you expect to be with their games on the wii when they weren't really exploring online or HD, current tech?
Metroid Other M and Animal Crossing for wii were the biggest offenders. Two games that, in my opinion, really hurt their franchises.
Are you talking about DKCR?
Because then I strongly disagree with this opinion. DKCR was an awesome game.
Read most of the thread and my answer is exactly the same as i first clicked on the thread:
Yes, you are getting old and you should feel ashamed of it.
But thanfully will pass when you reach maturity and learn to apreciate a game for what it is.
Not liking SMG2 is a sin and you just created INSANE amount of expectations for SS wich absolutly NO GAME can deliver this day.
edit :
Nimbus, VVVVVV, Super Meat Boy, Binding of Isaac and the Bit.Trip series are few of the top "my mind is blown" games that i played this gen and they could be made with basicaly the same gameplay at the super nes or saturn.
Yes, you are getting old and you should feel ashamed of it.
But thanfully will pass when you reach maturity and learn to apreciate a game for what it is.
Not liking SMG2 is a sin and you just created INSANE amount of expectations for SS wich absolutly NO GAME can deliver this day.
edit :
Nimbus, VVVVVV, Super Meat Boy, Binding of Isaac and the Bit.Trip series are few of the top "my mind is blown" games that i played this gen and they could be made with basicaly the same gameplay at the super nes or saturn.
Holy Order Sol
Member
The games are as great as ever and "magic" is as much of a bullshit term as ever.
About as blown away as I was by certain GC or PS2 games? As in, quite a lot depending on the title in question?
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't arbitrarily change my standards based on what's in vogue at the time. I find that type of thinking highly superficial.
Well I'm glad those games blew your mind.
I meant like a Mario 64, Ocarina of Time blow you mind like a 'I can't believe I'm playing this' type of thing.
Uncharted 2 and Batman Arkham City were the only titles that did that for me this generation. Red Steel 2/Skyward Sword controls really blew my mind, but the games themselves didn't live up.
I guess I meant moreso on a technical level, and let's face it, it's a big factor in Western gaming whether it is superficial or not. I know a lot of people were blown away by the massive landscapes of Skyrim or the scope of Rogue Squadron 2 on Gamecube. Don't say that technical prowess does not matter for gameplay.
Nocturnowl
Member
I played DK Jungle Beat for the story, judging from the morsels of plot I could find in the instruction manual and back of the box it goes something like...
"DK wants to become King of the jungle so he goes to each kingdom to beat down their ruler into submission"
Now that's all the motivation I need!
CoffeeJanitor
Member
The awkward cutscenes that lack VO.
Well, it's the presentation then. Not the story itself nor the lack of focus on story. There's not much to discuss, the lack of voice-over didn't bother me. I'd rather Nintendo keep "gibberish" dialogue in Zeldas than go full English voice acting, but that's just me.
That is exactly what I'm saying. Well, not precisely, rather, A game only needs to be as technically proficient as is necessary to implement the core design.
FieryBalrog
Member
You have to spin jump constantly and shaking the wiimote is not only annoying, it's not precise or responsive at all which is a huge minus for a Nintendo game normally known for their precision and crisp responsiveness.
It adds absolutely nothing to the game while detracting a lot. It's a symptom of how tired Nintendo is becoming that they have to detract from their own best qualities for the sake of a gimmick to make things "new", instead of just relying on the gameplay.
Even the controls for moving Mario are dumb, it's basically Marioparty. Can't turn Mario around without moving him. Can't move him without turning him around. All mapped to one stick and not precise, yet the game demands precision constantly. Fighting monsters feels like a waggle fest + mario party pokey punchout minigame. Compare it to the absolute slickness of NSMB DS/Wii, even if they are giant rehash that I've been criticizing.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Poor storytelling then, if you wanna pick all the nits out of the argument.
...Yeah, that's what I meant by "presentation". Well, if the lack of VO is the issue with Skyward Sword, there's almost not one Nintendo game that will please people who share this opinion.
...Kid Icarus?
That's one. Include Other M and Star Fox Assault and you have three. Three. My last point still stands.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I usually wouldn't have a problem but they tried to make it cinematic. Which made things awkward.
Like someone else said, it gave the impression that it was half-assed
TDLink
Member
Xenoblade, Disaster: Day of Crisis, Pandora's Tower, Fire Emblem 9 & 10
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Other M?
Man, so its either no voice acting or poor voice acting, with a story that can most charitably described as "quiant"
...what the fuck are the guys who wrote Mario and Luigi: Inside's Bowser Story doing? Why are their stories ten times more clever, funny, and engaging then the mainline Zelda and Metroid games?
all I've learned from reading this thread is that most Nintendo fans really only care about a very select list of franchises. I mean, there are huge swathes of their library I don't care about at all (metroid, starfox, pikmin, animal crossing, mario party, mario kart, mario sports, wii, fire emblem, pokemon, wave race, pilotwings, donkey kong, rare stuff, new super mario bros, skyward sword) but I'm still a big fan of Nintendo games and don't have any issues finding great games of theirs with that "magic" to play these days.
olore
Member
Same for me although I`m not sure that it is so sad, it`s more of an evolution as you age
You really don't. I'm as critical as it gets when it comes to shitty motion controls (as I mentioned before, I had to use the classic controller hack for DKCR because it got so bad), but I never felt the waggle was annoying in the Galaxy games, and I've collected all 300+ stars in both games. Would I rather have it mapped to a button? Probably. But it was never a big deal for me.
Do you even have to use the waggle very often? From what I remember:
-Spin attack against bosses
-Use it to activate star thingy that shoots you to next planetoid
-cloud suit mario
-flip tiles via spin attack
There's probably a few more, but it's really not bad. Mapping waggle to DK's roll in DKCR? That was fucking bad.
If you are really bad at jumping on enemies in 3D, spinning and immediately doing a ground pound gives you a homing ground pound.
DKCR had as much story as a DK game needs:
Tikis are hypnotizing the animals.
DK is too badass to be hypnotized.
The Tikis make the mistake of stealing DK's bananas.
DK pummels Tikis and collects bananas, then kills the final big bad Tiki by punching the moon at him.
fin
Epilogue: Acid trip.
Tikis are hypnotizing the animals.
DK is too badass to be hypnotized.
The Tikis make the mistake of stealing DK's bananas.
DK pummels Tikis and collects bananas, then kills the final big bad Tiki by punching the moon at him.
fin
Epilogue: Acid trip.
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