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Nintendo Magic: Winning the Videogame Wars
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XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Is it just me, or is this thread primarily ViolentP trying to defend himself from being dogpiled? :lol
ViolentP
Member
Flachmatuch said:
You answered it perfectly.
They used their core competency of being able to design bearable user interfaces. The iPod was an excellent product
Agreed and agreed.
XiaNaphryz said:
You would think so. There are still a few stragglers but the evolution of this conversation has been quite fulfilling.
Flachmatuch
Member
Vinci said:
I meant Nintendo, not Miyamoto. With a normal company, above a certain size you simply can't have this kind of individuality. You have to have generalist assholes as the top managers. The chance for a programmer to become company president through their work and talent as opposed to company politics is minuscule etc etc. There's a very hard limit for what you can achieve through doing your actual job.
ViolentP said:
But your earlier statement was that the iPod was successful because of Apple's name. At the time of the NES, virtually no one knew what Nintendo was. Yet they openly accepted the system due to Super Mario Brothers.
The Wii is no different: People bought it for Wii Sports and Wii Fit. Not because of the company that made it. At least not in the demographics you're discussing with us.
According to you, earlier, a no-name company could not break into the game market with a product like the Wii. Are you now changing that perspective?
Flachmatuch
Member
XiaNaphryz said:
Sorry about that...but he's discussing his point of view pretty nicely (even if he doesn't always seem very well informed...but I do that too sometimes) and the questions he keeps bringing up are actually the good questions for me to think through my arguments about this stuff. I'm kind of sure that Vinci and maybe Kilrogg are in a similar position. Edit: damn this is pretty patronizing. I can't change being like this though :-/
Flachmatuch
Member
Yeah but Nintendo and Iwata are favourite topics, aren't they :-D
ViolentP
Member
Vinci said:
Not because but it certainly made it much easier for them to do it. Aside from recognition, they had the resources to fund and market.
All I'm saying is that if Spumko released a Wii Fit clone, it would likely not reach the level of success of Wii Fit.
What Nintendo did back then is not what I would consider breaking into the market. The concept of home gaming was in such a level of infancy that given enough "feature" at that state could have easily created (and did) trends that would form the foundation of where we are today. It was young back then and everyone was learning as they went. Now we(gaming) are at a stage of technology. Back then, idea.
Flachmatuch said:
Only ones doing anything interesting. What's to discuss about the other two companies? They're trying to jump in on Nintendo's side of the market, and they're both doing it rather poorly, though MS is at least trying to pretend it's doing something clever. Only other thing worth talking over in depth with this generation would be Live.
Vinci said:
Wrong. This generation of young families view Nintendo as a noun and a verb. It is synonymous with video games in popular culture. Atari lost that in the 1980's and Sega never had it. It was every bit as much the Nintendo name, coupled with an innovative new approach, that made it stick. If the Wii came out of a no name company, it would not have caught the attention of the masses as it did.
Vinci said:
Easy one! It was the only company that was not "involved" in the collapse of the industry in the early 1980's, it wasn't marketed as a video game system, per se, but as an entertainment product, came with a toy robot, etc. It was able to come into the market at a time when there was virtually no competition for them and didn't have the trappings of Coleco, Atari, Bally, Magnavox, etc. Again, not positioned as a video game machine, but an "entertainment system".
The market may have collapsed, but the pent up demand to keep playing was there.
Vinci said:
Super Mario Brothers helped, but that was not the primary reason. See above.
Of course people purchased it for those games, but it was the value proposition of Nintendo that carried the assurance for consumers. Little Jimmy and Jill were playing on their GBAs at home, after all.
That is what I am saying. A no-name company could not have done what Nintendo did. It's the hardware, game design, marketability, penetration, etc. Motion controls have been around for a long time. If anyone could just do it, why hadn't anyone done so?
timetokill
Banned
MisterHero said:
Smash Bros. matters to us on GAF. It matters to the people that were paying attention to E3 and TGS. And without anything to show, it was the thing of most interest that they could talk about at the time.
"Their whole legacy" was about 22 million sold last generation. To the expanded audience, "their whole legacy" was more of an obstacle than a virtue -- a history of making a product that they had absolutely no interest in.
But even back then, even if they couldn't show it, the Wii Remote was the main point of the Revolution. It wasn't about Smash Bros., and in a move that I think is stunning even now -- it wasn't about Mario (or a Luigi as temporary stand-in). It was about a completely new IP and new product. It only emphasizes my point earlier, that Nintendo was doing everything they could to distance their "legacy" from the Wii product. They could have easily had Mario running around swinging a tennis racket -- and indeed I'm confident they did at one point during testing. But they made the decision to launch without Mario's branding on it because even Mario himself would present a barrier to people who had never considered purchasing a gaming product for themselves before.
I'm not saying Nintendo needs to remove themselves NOW. I'm saying they did, at the launch of the product. They needed the audience to consider the Wii outside of their preconceptions, outside of the typical "videogames" sphere.
Since then they've actually done a great job of restablishing, or reinventing, their brand image since that point -- after the consumers were accepting the Wii, they could present themselves as a visionary company as well as a developer of incredible software for the expanded demographic. Nintendo is trusted among the Wii consumer base, much as a name like "Spielberg" or something encourages moviegoers to consider a film they might not have before. Furthermore, among this audience at least, Nintendo isn't perceived as "kids-only" anymore, a hole that Sega and Sony have continuously tried to push Nintendo into. Sony still does it, of course. Just look at their PR regarding the 3DS :lol
If you were responding to me, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was arguing any of this was "simple" from.
cRIPticon said:
Once I was at a Wednesday night activity (~2004?) with some kids (all in elementary school), and we were playing the game where one person stands in the middle of the others and says a trait (e.g. red hair, wearing shoes, went to school today, etc.). Whoever shares that trait has to get up and run to another chair, and the person left is in the middle to do the next round. I was in the middle, and my trait was "Owns a video game system made by Nintendo." No one stood up. I said "Don't any of you have a GameBoy Advance?" They chimed up "That's made by Nintendo?"
Anecdotal, yes, but it's consistently driven home to me how little people understand the manufacturers behind a system if it isn't driven into them as part of the name again and again.
MisterHero
Super Member
It was partially in response the quote you quote and yours as well.timetokill said:
The direction of the discussion is "what if another company released Wii"? And I was saying that it couldn't happen. The closest real example we have is PS2 slim, which isn't accurate either because the bulk of the support was 3rd party games. Wii has a lot of 3rd party games, but the headline was always Nintendo's games. Neither would have done well without any games or the specific companies that made those games.Nintendo's games in particular could sell anywhere from 1-10 million even during Gamecube years, which was still a far cry and exception against most of other games that aren't theirs. Selling that many to an audience as "low" as 22 million is still very amazing. Sure they weren't where they wanted to be but at the same time they've said they weren't prepared for Wii's success (simply doing better than Gamecube would have been a success).
I agree though the Wii Remote was the point of Revolution, though honestly, everyone was speculating about its interface at the time. But what we KNEW at E3 2005 was that was all about playing games. Yes, the Miis were about putting "You" (not you specifically, but the player
) into the game, and the only way you know if you like a game is if you play it. E3 2006 was completely on point in this regard.boiled goose
good with gravy
Conversation sidetracked...
anyways...
ViolentP, it seems you are being receptive and reasonable.
The problem is that you don't seem to be very informed specifically about the wii's library. The gamecube had its big hits and got a bit more core third party support, but the Wiis library is definitely better than the gamecubes, both for core and casual games.
Nintendo makes more casual games now, sure, but their output of core games is better (at worst equal) than during the gamecube days. And it will probably be far superior by the end of the generation with all the games coming out this year. I only have two beefs with nintendo. I would have liked a few more core new IPs, and much better localization by NOA. Even though the Wii has been shafted on major third party support, it is the home of a lot of niche gems at retail and from wiiware, something the gamecube couldn't even dream off.
anyways...
ViolentP, it seems you are being receptive and reasonable.
The problem is that you don't seem to be very informed specifically about the wii's library. The gamecube had its big hits and got a bit more core third party support, but the Wiis library is definitely better than the gamecubes, both for core and casual games.
Nintendo makes more casual games now, sure, but their output of core games is better (at worst equal) than during the gamecube days. And it will probably be far superior by the end of the generation with all the games coming out this year. I only have two beefs with nintendo. I would have liked a few more core new IPs, and much better localization by NOA. Even though the Wii has been shafted on major third party support, it is the home of a lot of niche gems at retail and from wiiware, something the gamecube couldn't even dream off.
timetokill
Banned
amtentori said:
Whoa amtentori, put away the porn dude
boiled goose
good with gravy
timetokill said:
haha, unfortunate typo... :lol
you have a pretty dirty mind
ViolentP
Member
First, I feel dirty. Second, yeah, I'm likely less informed than many on the subject. Truth is, I got exactly what I wanted from this thread. A contradictory opinion. It was my job to make sure it didn't get lost in the proverbial froth of those in a mental crusade but all in all, I'm content with the results. Enough to start rethinking my stance on the console entirely.
MisterHero
Super Member
As a foreign republic, Nintendo has diplomatic immunitymugwhump said:
boiled goose
good with gravy
ViolentP said:
Like I said, you seem reasonable and receptive. Unfortunately the only wii games that get any promotion are the big nintendo games (metroid, mario, zelda) and the big Casual games.
Even nintendo doesn't do a very good job promoting its smaller core games. That said, if you spend a little time researching, you will find that infact the wii has built itself a pretty amazing library. Nice thing is thing is you can find a lot of these gems on the cheap.
ViolentP
Member
amtentori said:
For what its worth, I've played Smash Bros. Twilight Princess, Zack and Wiki, Punch Out, Madworld, HotD, Galaxy, Sports, Wario Ware and a few others that I can't remember. Smash Bros. and Zack and Wiki were the only 2 that really gripped me. I think the Wiimote is excellent for the point and click (which is close to my favorite genre) but is quite barring when it comes to other games for me. This is the main reason for letting go of the system. In no way are they reflective of the quality of the machine.
I read parts of the book in Japanese. It talks about Nintendo's recent success using the Blue Ocean ideology, and I think most GAF members will be familiar with its content. I distinctly remember the end of the book talking about the arrival of the iPod touch and DSi, so it's fairly recent but won't reflect the last year or so.
I should grab the English version and read the whole thing.
I should grab the English version and read the whole thing.
Bought my copy of Nintendo Magic from Amazon.de (don't worry, it's the US version, I can't read germanCeline said:
), but it seems it turned out to be quite popular: it's going to be available in 3-5 weeks time directly from them, or you have to buy from one of their affiliates.I'm roughly halfway into reading it and I find it worth buying -until now at least- even if I recall various bits (which isn't surprising at all since the book is basically an expanded collection of Nikkei interviews, some of which I'm almost sure I've already read in the past).
Regarding the whole Wii success, I believe marketing had very little to do with it.
It was quite a complex combination heavily relying on Nintendo's traditional strenght: being able to create incredibly fun software. They were also smart enough to bundle this somehow simple software with an intuitive controller, and to price the whole thing nicely, compared to the then-expensive HD consoles.
Fun, bundled software + intuitive controller + relatively low price = so-called casual gamer interest
But at the same time Nintendo attracted, at least initially, lots of interest from the so-called hardcore gamers: I still remember the flood of theories about what kind of innovative games could be made with the new controller, surely many, many people enthusiastically approached the new console hoping to see those dreams come true.
Last but not least, Nintendo-fans that did not care about the lack of "raw" power nor were somewhat disgusted by the partial strategy shift that attracted casual people were of course among the most fervid buyers of the Wii.
I define the strategy shift "partial" because even if so-called casual stuff is getting heavily advertised Nintendo is still producing and/or publishing lots of traditional games.
But the most important thing is, not only are the latter being introduced to the new audience (see Mario Kart Wii) but the former seems to be increasing their complexity (see Wii Sports Resort VS Wii Sports), somehow blending casual and traditional style gameplay which IMHO can be an important med-long term goal for Nintendo to strenghten their fanbase.
timetokill said:
This said what I would have said had I been able to stick around. In the end, the Wii sold because people wanted it - not because some company they had heard of but never cared about made it. The 'Spielberg' comparison is an apt one at this point, I think, though.
I have to tip my hat to Nintendo. It is rarely mentioned in these kind of discussions but I think this fact makes Nintendo's success really seem like magic: They captured nearly 50% of the market share without the benefit of top tier 3rd party games. The Wii is selling at a faster pace than the PS2 in its gen despite that fact. Can you imagine how many 360/PS3s would have sold if 3rd parties treated it like the Wii? The mainstream wouldn't even know they existed if it weren't for 3rd parties. Just goes to show how badass Nintendo is.
Wii is so successful because of the innovative interface and 1st party software, all works of Nintendo. People can say what they want about Nintendo but they can't say the people at Nintendo are without brilliant minds.
Wii is so successful because of the innovative interface and 1st party software, all works of Nintendo. People can say what they want about Nintendo but they can't say the people at Nintendo are without brilliant minds.
With Iwata passing away recently I stumbled upon the book "Nintendo Magic" recently. I've reached chapter 6 of 8 this morning. So far it is a very good read with a lot of background information unknown to me even though I consider myself as a walking Nintendo almanach lol 
Things like Yamauchi's last hint before leaving to do a dual screen system and how Miyamoto and Iwata discussed about it during a lunch at an Italian's restaurant near-by the Kyoto HQ. Miyamoto duct-taped two PDAs together to show off how it would feel to have dualscreens.
Iwatas background from his very early years until becoming Nintendos president and the years after during Wii and DS. How he saved HAL thanks to Yamauchi's trust in him, that HAL is a direct reference to 2001 or how desperately HAL needed Kirby to succeed. Miyamoto stepped in and proposed several changes as well as renaming it from Tinkle-Popo to Kirby's Dreamland.
A lot of infos about Gunpei Yokoi and his very strong influence to Nintendo which lasts until today. That he didn't had to leave because of the Virtual Boy being a massive flop and that he wasn't descredited in the eyes of Yamauchi. He planned for several years to retire at the age of 50, but eventually did so with 54 after the Virtual Boy's release.
Yamauchi's premise always was to something completely fresh and new which will surprise and delight the people instead of doing the same. Showing him a new product and telling him it isn't different than the competition, but it's 'better' seemed to be the worst you could've do.
In that sense Yokoi invented a lot successful products often with seasoned components instead of state-of-the-art technology. This goes back to the Ultra Hand and Ultra Machine toys with ultimately leading to the Game Boys huge success even though at the time it has been released there already were much better tech available, but i.e. the Game Gear showed clearly how you shouldn't do it. Also a lot of information of what a struggle the dev of the Game Boy was and how it nearly failed due to problems with LCD screen.
I could go on and on, but at this point I likely not risk a legal infringement and therefore highly recommend every gamer with an interest for gaming history and of course every Nintendo enthusiast to get a copy and read it by yourself.
I really hope there will be some kind of biography or the like about Iwata, Yamauchi and Yokoi in the future.
Things like Yamauchi's last hint before leaving to do a dual screen system and how Miyamoto and Iwata discussed about it during a lunch at an Italian's restaurant near-by the Kyoto HQ. Miyamoto duct-taped two PDAs together to show off how it would feel to have dualscreens.
Iwatas background from his very early years until becoming Nintendos president and the years after during Wii and DS. How he saved HAL thanks to Yamauchi's trust in him, that HAL is a direct reference to 2001 or how desperately HAL needed Kirby to succeed. Miyamoto stepped in and proposed several changes as well as renaming it from Tinkle-Popo to Kirby's Dreamland.
A lot of infos about Gunpei Yokoi and his very strong influence to Nintendo which lasts until today. That he didn't had to leave because of the Virtual Boy being a massive flop and that he wasn't descredited in the eyes of Yamauchi. He planned for several years to retire at the age of 50, but eventually did so with 54 after the Virtual Boy's release.
Yamauchi's premise always was to something completely fresh and new which will surprise and delight the people instead of doing the same. Showing him a new product and telling him it isn't different than the competition, but it's 'better' seemed to be the worst you could've do.
In that sense Yokoi invented a lot successful products often with seasoned components instead of state-of-the-art technology. This goes back to the Ultra Hand and Ultra Machine toys with ultimately leading to the Game Boys huge success even though at the time it has been released there already were much better tech available, but i.e. the Game Gear showed clearly how you shouldn't do it. Also a lot of information of what a struggle the dev of the Game Boy was and how it nearly failed due to problems with LCD screen.
I could go on and on, but at this point I likely not risk a legal infringement
and therefore highly recommend every gamer with an interest for gaming history and of course every Nintendo enthusiast to get a copy and read it by yourself.I really hope there will be some kind of biography or the like about Iwata, Yamauchi and Yokoi in the future.
So both the DS and Wii, the systems responsible for Nintendo's post-Gamecube resurgence, were both prototyped with duct tape? :O
