pieatorium
Member
I wonder how much room will be left under the bus when all theses titles end up there alongside nsmbu
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Nintendo want every developer to publish on wii u
- Thread starter ahm998
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I wonder how much room will be left under the bus when all theses titles end up there alongside nsmbu
What The Forest Taught Me
Member
I would enjoy seeing Nintendo become a consistent major competitor in the home console market once again. They have the resources to achieve that over time. What they quite obviously do not have is executive leadership willing to swallow their pride, admit to the specific failures that have brought them to their current state, and do away with the largely Japan-centric decision making that, among other detrimental tendencies toward willfull myopia, has devastated their home console market share over the past 17 years.
What The Forest Taught Me
Member
I am fairly certain this is a contributing factor. On the subject, I wonder if there are any among us here in the NeoGAF community that hold a large amount of Nintendo shares, and perhaps attend their shareholder meetings?
So simple, yet so effective.
What The Forest Taught Me
Member
It is great to get more insight into the truth of the matter from some one in the industry. Great post with truly damning illumination of some of the sentiment that has contributed in no small way to the decline of more companies than just Nintendo.
What The Forest Taught Me
Member
To comment further on your post, a certain level of illumination of facts concerning prevalent Japanese corporate culture, Japanese cultural norms in general, and the attitude that the more traditional Japanese individual among the citizenry can often have (but will not so often display outright) towards outsiders/the west would likely help some to better understand part of what has led to Nintendo's problems. However, that is a discussion for another time and thread.
This.
No wonder there's a huge split between the two audiences (Sony/MS and Nintendo), they're looking for quite different things.
It's kinda ironic, or maybe I should say baffling, to see so many people wanting Nintendo to change, to copy what Sony and/or Microsoft are doing: it would mean insta-death of any appeal Nintendo's software has on me.
They *must* find other ways, maybe new ways (blue ocean anyone?) to be successful by the way, but they shouldn't sacrifice the things that made them so appreciated in so many ways.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Not enough third party support?
Wasn't that advertising FlipNote... which the West still doesn't have ;_;
ab.aeterno
Member
This attitude encapsulates everything I dislike about the hipster-core movement of gamers. You need a mop for the amount of sneering and scorn dripping off those words, and the implied value judgment against them is gross.
Wii U is starting to get good word of mouth, Pikmin, TW101, Zelda got good to great reviews, Mario 3D World last preview put the game on everyone's radar. The medias are portraying a much better picture now.
Yet it has to convert into sales. How Wii U will fare during these holidays will be crucial, Nintendo has to spend a shitload of money in marketing to promote the console.
Yet it has to convert into sales. How Wii U will fare during these holidays will be crucial, Nintendo has to spend a shitload of money in marketing to promote the console.
I definitely do NOT want to put words into anybody else's mouth but in my opinion there's nothing negative about being a AAA cinematic game per se, value-wise (the implications on the industry on the other way are a completely different thing to discuss).
A game is ultimately worth for what it has to offer to me as a gamer but obviously not everybody like *that* kind of experiences, the same way lots of people couldn't care less about Mario or Zelda.
It seems a fair stance to me honestly.
Boy Wander
Member
NSMBU has an attach rate of around 50%. You do the maths to figure out whether it was a success or not....
ab.aeterno
Member
The derisive "hand-holding QTE fest" bit undermines that argument. I have no problem with people having tastes where that kind of game doesn't appeal to them; I take umbrage at the idea that those kinds of games are inferior, for "casuals," aren't really games, or whatever. It's an attitude which is becoming more prevalent.
He was probably speaking to it being dismissed as a system seller by WiiU fans after the fact. I know I read a lot of posts before it's launch that said it would drive sales because look how many units it pushed on the DS, which is the exact argument used for DK, Wii ______, etc. Other titles I saw used in list wars were Project P-100 and Pikmin 3.
The other huge problem with the holier-than-thou derision and dismissal of 'AAA QTE fests' is the pretension that games on Nintendo consoles are some last bastion of purity for good games with good mechanics with none of this horrible shallow flashy shit!
It's a stunted and myopic view that ignores the simple truth that the strength of the MS and Sony library of games is their sheer diversity and volume which makes the offerings of Nintendo's consoles look pathetic by comparison.
What Nintendo console has Minecraft? State of Decay? Journey? Flower? Little Big Planet? Project Spark? AAA QTE fests my ass. And that's just off the top of my head and ignoring PC. AND they all have those disgusting 'AAA QTE fests' to boot.
It's a stunted and myopic view that ignores the simple truth that the strength of the MS and Sony library of games is their sheer diversity and volume which makes the offerings of Nintendo's consoles look pathetic by comparison.
What Nintendo console has Minecraft? State of Decay? Journey? Flower? Little Big Planet? Project Spark? AAA QTE fests my ass. And that's just off the top of my head and ignoring PC. AND they all have those disgusting 'AAA QTE fests' to boot.
Not this shit again.
It might be a strong generalization but there's a point to be made: I know I've played games that have sections where there is literally little to no skill required to go further. You can't lose, basically.
On the other way, I usually look for challenge in a game. I want to play something that expects, require my ability.
So a design approach like the above-mentioned unlikely clicks with me no matter how grand, spectacular is the scene.
To each his own I guess.
I see what you mean but well... I think it happens all the time with Nintendo games as well (kiddie, etc).
Agent Gibbs
Member
Here's an idea nintendo throw some money at a big developer to make/port a great game, then publish it on WiiU yourselves and when sales occur then others will follow
just saying you're friends with them does nothing, talking to them does nothing, your past fees and poor sales have created a speed hump you need to get them over
still love my WiiU and 3DS just would have loved nintendo to have been enough of a player so i could have had all the Mass Effect games on WiiU and GTA etc etc some games could certainly benefit from taking huds to a pad at the very least for second screen integration!
just saying you're friends with them does nothing, talking to them does nothing, your past fees and poor sales have created a speed hump you need to get them over
still love my WiiU and 3DS just would have loved nintendo to have been enough of a player so i could have had all the Mass Effect games on WiiU and GTA etc etc some games could certainly benefit from taking huds to a pad at the very least for second screen integration!
Night Angel
Member
What's in it for the publishers? They have to go out of their way to develop a game for the Wii-U's unique architecture to only achieve mediocre sales? This is where Nintendo's (and their casual fans') lack of support for third parties bites them in the ass. No one wants to release games on Ninty's new console because, historically, third party games sell like crap.
So, Nintendo, what are YOU doing to deserve their support?
So, Nintendo, what are YOU doing to deserve their support?
Bony Manifesto
Member
There's plenty of Nintendo games like that though! In fact, Nintendo games are more problematic for that as they seeming have some sort of ideological exception to difficulty settings, and they're extremely conscious of making their games accessible to the most casual gamer. Even the Nintendo games that provide a decent challenge for hardcore gamers demand you slog through hours of easy content before you get to the good stuff.
Barry Burton
Member
Perhaps they should start by making hardware that developers will want to make games far.
I know, this hasn't changed in almost two decades, and I don't know why anyone would expect this to change now. Nintendo can keep saying that they want third party support, but as long as they feel like they don't need third-party support as part of their business strategy, things will remain the status quo.
I know, this hasn't changed in almost two decades, and I don't know why anyone would expect this to change now. Nintendo can keep saying that they want third party support, but as long as they feel like they don't need third-party support as part of their business strategy, things will remain the status quo.
BRocknRolla
Member
I do in fact agree that they'll have more games than either of the next gen consoles that I'll want to play this Holiday. I think they'll do well through then.
After that? I'm not so sure... It will continue to be my Nintendo box that I dust off every few months to play something, but other than that? I don't know that Nintendo has a real future with 3rd parties.
After that? I'm not so sure... It will continue to be my Nintendo box that I dust off every few months to play something, but other than that? I don't know that Nintendo has a real future with 3rd parties.
Artemis-Thoth
Member
I wonder if the 3DS didn't exist or wasn't successful, would all those titles be on Wii U instead? If so, then Nintendo is just shooting themselves in the foot.
shinra-bansho
Member
It has an attach rate of like 70%.
The game itself has sold reasonably well. And it's seemingly the go-to title for the teeny tiny market that's buying the Wii U.
Resistance: Fall of Man had a 50% attach rate in the US at the PS3's launch. Overall, I don't think anyone considers Resistance a system seller and the PS3 was still an abject failure at launch. And the Wii U is selling considerably worse.
But pieatorium's comment is more about the fact that people claimed the Wii U would sell gangbusters off the back of NSMBU alone, and it's since been thrown under the bus. And every title on the chalkboard is similarly thrown. When the Wii ____ U titles underperform, they'll be thrown there. When 3DW fails to spur sales it will be thrown there too. The bus is getting a work out.
Ok, I'll be the Devil's advocate here, but I understand them coming to your booth and asking for the same online features as on other plateforms. No matter how shitty their infrastucture is. They had between 60 and 100 millions people (depending when your story takes place) that had buy their console, and you have to respect that. Even if you don't like the specifications of the Wii or of the online.
In the end, people who will buy your game should expect the same features/$ spend that on any other plateform.
(I've been a Wii user, and I've played a lot online. Mario Kart, PES, CoD, they all worked fine)
I think that kickstarting a fanbase a Nintendo plateform is the real challenge indeed, there's so much missed opportunities (i.e. of the Modern warfare 2 year delay on Wii, EA dropping the ball this year on Wii u, and so many others).
But in the end, Nintendo can't publish every single game, and there some success stories in Japan that shows that with persistence, you can create a big fanbases on a nintendo console (Dragon quest, monster hunter...).
The question is, which Western studios will take a chance on 3DS and Wii U (both seen as "failures") when they all missed the DS and Wii phenomenons ?
I think a lot of people want Nintendo to change as a console manufacturer, but not as a developer. Basically what a lot of people want is an Xbox or PlayStation that runs Nintendo software. I have a feeling we're never gonna get that as long as Nintendo is first party.
Trying constant new things seems to be Nintendo's strategy. I think they're trying to set themselves up as a trend-setter again. They don't want to follow (they tried that during the Gamecube years and Miyamoto admits they didn't like doing it at all), they want to lead. They might keep trying until they get lucky with something so utterly ground-breaking it forces the entire rest of the industry to steer in their direction. I don't know if that's possible.
The other option is for Nintendo to maintain its current profit model and hopefully outlast one of the other console manufacturers.
I'm sorry, but I've just played too many of these games and am honestly sick of them. They are boring, and feel less and less interactive. What makes me more sick is that this style of game design has infected nearly every big-budget retail game on the market. Franchises have gotten worse and entire genres have fallen by the wayside because of this crap.
Is EVERY big-budget game terrible now? Definitely not. I still love the massive retail releases that actually let me feel like I'm playing a damn game. They are out there. Is Nintendo the absolute LAST bastion of "real gameplay?" Definitely not. Some indie games have definitely been a big breath of fresh air in this department. I still appreciate however how my 3DS (and seemingly the Wii U) has become somewhat dominated by games that are more focused on fun systems than "press A for Awesome."
I just feel like "press A for Awesome" is the logical conclusion of the push for increasingly filmic games that seemingly started with the PSX, and that Nintendo has seemingly resisted ever since then. Of course I don't mean that uniformly for all games released on each platform, but to me that seems to be what's occurred on in a general sense.
Actually I'm kind of curious about how the Wii U's online infrastructure continues to fall short (I don't own one) from a developer's perspective.
That's another big problem. Nintendo finally has a handheld powerful enough to run the kind of games it usually designs for consoles. I feel like Nintendo doesn't know what the best platform for each game is anymore. As a result 3DS software is kind of threatening to cannibalize Wii U software.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
It's not that I don't see where you're coming from. It's that I see where he's coming from too. I expected this gen to be even more amazing than the PS2 era...but the most interesting things I got are a decent Transformers series, a Cool RPG concept that got killed out the gate by an baseball player turned business man, a decent Batman series, and Sleeping Dogs. Oh, and Uncharted, which is basically exactly the kind of game he's talking about, but done exceptionally well.
This generation left a ton of gamers wanting, like it or not.
Spieler Eins
Member
Considering that most of your examples are downloadable and something like Journey barely lasts an hour, just further proves how pathetic this first HD gen has been.
The Wii/DS at least still had lots of experimental titles as fullfledged retail releases.
I understand that, I truly do. It's just unfortunate that the cost we pay as Nintendo console owners is so high. I love Nintendo's innovation (When they really innovate, they haven't yet with Wii U) and the fact that they want to be different, but it's almost at the expense of everything an everyone else. Third party devs and gamers alike.
There is, in my opinion, no reason Nintendo couldn't have both. Just look at Sony. They have some great first party games, awesome third party support, truly unique indie experiences like Journey and gamers love their machines.
Nintendo just has to put effort into third parties from an early stage. Build a machine and infrastructure that caters to both Nintendo and external developers and publishers. I really don't think it'd matter if it was $50 more either. Nintendo's ace are their mega franchises and they can go on a machine with or without a fancy expensive controller.
Oh Uncharted 2 is exactly the kind of game I'm talking about, but actually done right (for a lot of subtle reasons). I don't have a problem with ultra-linear roller coaster games, I just don't like how literally only three developers in the entire industry can actually do it right.
Just throwing this out there, but what's the problem with wanting to be different? If everything was the same architecture, what's the point in acquiring multiple consoles beyond the first party titles?
Also, considering that the Wii U basically supports all but the absolute newest engines out there (it even does an open version of XNA ffs) I don't see how its not catering to the vast majority of publishers.
A better online infrastructure I'd agree with, but technically I haven't seen anything that prevents developers from making games on the system, even if they're not as graphically impressive. This isn't exactly Sega Saturn we're talking about when it comes to hardware architecture, it seems to be much more flexible.
That's exactly the point. I'd like not having to buy multiple consoles. I'd be perfectly content if I could get a console that receives very strong 3rd party support and nintendo exclusives. Instead I'm stuck spending $300+ on a Nintendo console to play their 3 or 4 exclusives i actually care about, and $400+ on another console just to be able to get 3rd party games that releases on every other console/platform but Nintendo. That's $700 dollars at minimum i have to spend just to get the machines i need to play all the games i want to play.
By the way, the thing that most fans are forgetting is that nobody out there is saying Nintendo has to copy Sony and Microsoft on everything. They want Nintendo to have the basic up-to-date industry standards with their tech (account system and strong online functionality, hardware that is a generation-worthy leap from the previous generation consoles, etc) and be able to have developer-friendly hardware.
That's not asking for THAT much, that's just the basic needs/wants in a game console for consumers/developers/publishers from generation to generation. They can go from there and add whatever they want to make their individual console distinct, but at least get that basis squared away. Nintendo has failed to do that for the last 4 gens in different ways. Though the Wii gets a pass because the concept was so revolutionary and they priced it dirt cheap in comparison to the other two consoles.
The fault is Nintendo's and you for partaking in it.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Word is NSMBU has passed 2 million WW, so having those titles in the same boat would be a big win for them.
I don't want to have to buy two consoles, plain and simple. If I was someone who liked Sony exclusives more than Nintendo ones I could get a PS4 and know I could get those and all the third party games I want. I'd be happy for an entire generation with one machine. In the end however if I buy a Nintendo console I'm basically buying it for a small handful of games. Then if I want the dozens and dozens of top tier third party games I need to actually go and buy another console.
Nintendo tried to get us to believe it'd be different this time.
Yep, I read that as the ultimate, yet subtle form of port begging.
They basically do NOT want Nintendo out of business entirely, they want them to go third party.
Neither do I.
But they've been extremely successful with Wii and DS, mildly with 3DS despite giganormous market scenario changes. I think they can do it again.
I think the key difference here lies in designing the experience as a whole.
Generally speaking, I believe that Nintendo aims for gentle learning curve, maybe with additional help (SuperGuide), so that both newbies and core gamers can enjoy a reasonable amount of enjoyment, but with the latter possibly going for the extra difficulty layer (additional, more challenging levels and/or objectives).
The cinematic games I'm thinking about sport a different structure because they are designed to offer a different kind of experience. By focusing on a movie-like approach they - intentionally! - leave less space for failures, you get a constant stream of interactive and non-interactive action, and possibly a compelling story too. Which is perfectly fine for what they want to accomplish.
Is this a "legit" form of gaming? Of course it is, the way I see it the problem is that this kind of gamedesign is cannibalizing the market. And that's not good.
Because in my opinion any market dominance ultimately damage consumers by giving them less choice.
In a broader sense, I feel like there's nothing stopping a philosopy that values image quality over gameplay/core mechanics.
And, personally speaking, I am quite consistent in negatively judging this trend (there's a reason I love Nintendo, lol).
Of course there will always be exceptions but generally speaking this is how I see the market.
fabricated backlash
Member
Well, the only way this wish is coming true is if NIntendo buys every developer.
Otherwise we'll see the 3 remaining 3rd parties burn bridges next year too.
Otherwise we'll see the 3 remaining 3rd parties burn bridges next year too.
Red Swirl, my point was that there are many dozens of 'non AAA' games that are amazing available on all the other platforms, Nintendo hardware has no monopoly on these games by any stretch of the imagination and not recognizing that is horrible tunnel vision.
Sony and MS have figured out ways to get many many smaller, innovative and fun games on their systems. PC is the one true home for them as well.
Imagining that Nintendo platforms are the only place where they exist is myopic bull.
Why exactly? What difference does it make if they are downloadable or retail? It's better for smaller developers that they don't need to sell out to a publisher in order to get the 'full retail release' that you are putting on a pedestal unreasonably.
Sony and MS have figured out ways to get many many smaller, innovative and fun games on their systems. PC is the one true home for them as well.
Imagining that Nintendo platforms are the only place where they exist is myopic bull.
Blame the customer, not the publisher! Rah rah!
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