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Nintendo Web Framework (HTML5, Javascript, CSS dev support) announced for the Wii U

phosphor112 said:
Unless I missed something this framework isn't C# based, which is what XNA uses. This framework,just as the title says uses HTML5, Javascript, and CSS, which 2 of them aren't programming languages.

C# is very similar to Java, a programming language, but Java isn't JavaScript, nor are they related. In fact, the syntax for JS more resembles C. Anyway JS IS a language but it's extremely high level language that runs within a web browser. It is used to tell different HTML elements what to do. I haven't worked with it in many years but last I used it, it wasn't used for much.

HTML5, M = Markup. Markup isn't programming.

CSS is just stylesheets. Technically, HTML + CSS both are Turing complete, but people who think they are programmers because they can make a webpage with HTML and CSS are kidding themselves.

EDIT: To further elaborate, JS tells the browser (or whatever it's embedded into) to do the work while programing languages while programming languages do the work itself.
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JavaScript is a functional general purpose language, not a "high level" language, as you said, or a domain specific language as I believe you tried to imply. It is mostly used in web browsers to manipulate DOM elements, but it's also been used for plenty of other purposes as it is fully featured and it's a much better fit than JAVA or C#, for cases in which you need asynchronous code. JavaScript is the basis of NodeJS for example. Your fundamentals are weak sir.
 
atbigelow said:
Did you know that C# doesn't actually compile down to machine code and instead runs inside the .NET runtime? C# just tells the .NET runtime to do the work. Obviously not a "real" programming language.

If you can't pick up on the sarcasm there, you are wrong.
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Both C# and Java are compiled then put into a runtime environment, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
 
This is good news for Smokey Dave. Maybe he can enjoy most of his beloved ios games on the WiiU soon.

Nintendo needs to reactivate the "seal of quality"(but this time a "real" one) for this and filter out the crap.
otherwise tons of shit will flood the eshop(like the app store).

anyway. I'm in for some awesome indie stuff but this time with great controls(dpad and buttons).
 
bustin98 said:
I have the same idea. Imagine a rolled up Samus flinging into '?' boxes...
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vSzMGjx.gif
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.
 
wsippel said:
That differentiation becomes more and more meaningless every day. The main difference between scripting languages and "real" programming languages used to be that one ran through an interpreter while the other was compiled, but these days, even scripting languages are often compiled. At the same time, a lot of the features typically found in scripting languages, like automatic garbage collection, made their way into modern "real" programming languages.
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Any chance the JS (or whatever stuff) is being precompiled here? Main reason I ask is that the Wii U CPU ain't that fast and I'd sort of expect it to have trouble with complex web apps...then again I guess the newer JS engines compile on the fly to an extent these days.

Anyway this whole thing reminds me of the ES OS project from a while back, which appears to still be alive, albeit now it's "currently being developed mainly at Esrille" (which has a "cafe" page, although I suspect that's just a coincidence). Whatever the case the hopes I had for that project are coming true whether it's related or not. I made a post a while back about wishing this would end up as some open dev environment for indies and it's actually happening, more or less.

Are any of the game streaming services still around independently? An idea I heard a while back was to use a video stream on a webpage while using the input for the controls, wonder if that's possible with this stuff.
 
japtor said:
Any chance the JS (or whatever stuff) is being precompiled here? Main reason I ask is that the Wii U CPU ain't that fast and I'd sort of expect it to have trouble with complex web apps...then again I guess the newer JS engines compile on the fly to an extent these days.

Anyway this whole thing reminds me of the ES OS project from a while back, which appears to still be alive, albeit now it's "currently being developed mainly at Esrille" (which has a "cafe" page, although I suspect that's just a coincidence). Whatever the case the hopes I had for that project are coming true whether it's related or not. I made a post a while back about wishing this would end up as some open dev environment for indies and it's actually happening, more or less.

Are any of the game streaming services still around independently? An idea I heard a while back was to use a video stream on a webpage while using the input for the controls, wonder if that's possible with this stuff.
Click to expand...

Almost all browsers nowadays compile JS into native code before execution (JIT). It became a necessity for fast performance and is the backbone of the "HTML5 revolution" (otherwise sites with huge amounts of code would be unusable).

However, I'm not sure if the Wii U browser uses JIT. Since these tools are designed to make Wii U games/apps, not merely compatible websites, the framework probably compiles JS to native code (there are several toolchains out there that allow you to compile JS into machine code).
 
phosphor112 said:
Unless I missed something this framework isn't C# based, which is what XNA uses. This framework,just as the title says uses HTML5, Javascript, and CSS, which 2 of them aren't programming languages.

C# is very similar to Java, a programming language, but Java isn't JavaScript, nor are they related. In fact, the syntax for JS more resembles C. Anyway JS IS a language but it's extremely high level language that runs within a web browser. It is used to tell different HTML elements what to do. I haven't worked with it in many years but last I used it, it wasn't used for much.

HTML5, M = Markup. Markup isn't programming.

CSS is just stylesheets. Technically, HTML + CSS both are Turing complete, but people who think they are programmers because they can make a webpage with HTML and CSS are kidding themselves.

EDIT: To further elaborate, JS tells the browser (or whatever it's embedded into) to do the work while programing languages while programming languages do the work itself.
Click to expand...
I think you got some things mixed up. The programming languages you consider "real" don't work themselves, either. They require a compiler. The only real difference is when and how the applications are (normally) compiled. JavaScript, like Python or PHP, is typically compiled JIT or runs in an interpreter, whereas C# or C are normally compiled AOT. But that's not really a useful differentiation, as you can compile JavaScript AOT as well, or compile C at runtime.

Also, JavaScript can self host, which is basically a litmus test for real programming languages. You can write a JavaScript interpreter in JavaScript. It's also in no way browser dependent, there are stand alone interpreters and JIT compilers (like Rhino).
 
wsippel said:
Unity is no programming language. It's an engine. It supports several different programming languages, including C# and JavaScript.
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Well to be fair Unity doesn't really use Javascript. It has its own made up language called Unityscript that resembles it (probably done to make it more accessible for indies).
 
Darryl said:
Well to be fair Unity doesn't really use Javascript. It has its own made up language called Unityscript that resembles it (probably done to make it more accessible for indies).
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As far as I know, UnityScript not only resembles it, it's a JavaScript/ ECMAScript dialect. It also runs on a modified ECMAScript engine.
 
The Wii U browser is NetFront, which is using WebKit these days. I'm going to assume they will use WebKit as well for this. Not sure if they'll use the default WK JS engine. Could possibly use V8. Guess we'll see.

I suppose it would be possible to compile the JS when packaging the app. They know that the target platform is the same thing, so they could definitely optimize there. I severely doubt they made their own JS -> PPC compiler, though.
 
wsippel said:
As far as I know, UnityScript not only resembles it, it's a JavaScript/ ECMAScript dialect. It also runs on a modified ECMAScript engine.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure they do both run on ECMAScript, just saying that it isn't quite the same thing. I spent 3-4 years on traditional web-based JavaScript and I had to approach UnityScript as if it was a new language. It only looked familiar, it didn't exactly work similar.
 
M3d10n said:
Almost all browsers nowadays compile JS into native code before execution (JIT). It became a necessity for fast performance and is the backbone of the "HTML5 revolution" (otherwise sites with huge amounts of code would be unusable).

However, I'm not sure if the Wii U browser uses JIT. Since these tools are designed to make Wii U games/apps, not merely compatible websites, the framework probably compiles JS to native code (there are several toolchains out there that allow you to compile JS into machine code).
Click to expand...

It's a little more complicated than that. JIT is just intermediate code. Basically everything is compiled into JIT on the fly, which in turn is compiled into machine instructions on the fly. Fast javascript engines will start compiling certain functions into native machine instructions if they get used enough. Here's a good article on it http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/...script-performance-in-ie10-and-windows-8.aspx.

I doubt it precompiles much of anything. It probably works like everything else that uses a web framework: wraps a webview with an application. This is exactly how Miiverse, TVii and Street View work.
 
iamaustrian said:
Nintendo needs to reactivate the "seal of quality"(but this time a "real" one) for this and filter out the crap.
Click to expand...

The Nintendo eShop has a pretty good rating system that only allows users to rate games that they have played. Hopefully, applying this system to the flood of indie games should help users to be able to pick out the quality titles.
 
iOS games turning into Games on Nintendo hardware. UHhhh What the hell is happening.

Isn't this weird??? This is good news yes html5 and awesome web support. But what does that do to devs creating full fledged games?
 
iamaustrian said:
Nintendo needs to reactivate the "seal of quality"(but this time a "real" one) for this and filter out the crap.
otherwise tons of shit will flood the eshop(like the app store).
Click to expand...

Having to buy a devkit around ("high end PC") will easily help to take care of that.

Even if someone creates a REALLY horrible looking game that should be nuked from orbit, it just would essentially be hidden and not so front and centered.
 
I think the best case scenario is that developers who are having a rough time selling higher priced games on the App Store get an affordable second chance on the Wii U. A game like King of Dragon Pass could get some decent exposure by being available in the eShop, and then people buy it, play it, and maybe even think they want the iOS version, too.

Basically I think Nintendo's probably going after the more premium-priced stuff that can have a hard time striking it rich in the app store these days. It's a tough market to get into.
 
Thank you for your interest in becoming a Wii U Developer. The Nintendo Team will be reviewing your information and a member of the team will contact you to help you get started on the road to creating your Wii U experience.

The Nintendo Team
Click to expand...

Booyah!
 
There's part of me which wants to use Construct 2 and make a game, but I doubt what I would come up with would be any good.

It would be fun making a game putting my artistic/animation ability to use however.
 
Xun said:
There's part of me which wants to use Construct 2 and make a game, but I doubt what I would come up with would be any good.

It would be fun making a game putting my artistic/animation ability to use however.
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the fun is just making a complete game ;P
 
I'd love to see more cool stuff like the StreetView app, if this iniative is successful in getting a lot of app developers on board.
 
Coolwhip said:
Does this mean someone like Twitch.tv can easily make a Wii U app?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it doesn't need to be just gaming apps. And the benefit of using open standards (plus some custom JS-based APIs for access to the Wii U controller and whatnot) means that anyone with an existing web-based app could easily retool it.
 
Xun said:
I really am toying with the idea of making a game, I just have no idea what I'd make.
Click to expand...

Puzzle game always struck me as the first thing to try, since they should in theory have a relatively simple rule set.

I have a policy of getting games made by members of forums I visit, if I have the system.


....you guys are going to kill my wallet.
 
Xun said:
I really am toying with the idea of making a game, I just have no idea what I'd make.
Click to expand...

Start with something simple to get your feet wet. I'm currently making a "Tower Defense" type of game to challenge myself. What I would love to try to make eventually, is a platformer. But I've always wanted to make a Poker game as well.
 
Quick question. Has anyone heard back yet from Nintendo? Been working on a few projects and waiting to hear something so I can maybe speed up the projects
 
C# is a "real" language?

Wait... what? It's abstracted and it is objected orientated unlike low level languages or just straight machine instruction - it's used for particular applications whereas other languages are used for other applications...

I think Nintendo is making the right choice here - HTML5, CSS, JS are excellent - they have the web support, have large communities behind them, and will require the least amount of hassle

JS in particular is evolving so fast, it's remarkable what you can do with it these days...

C# is still relegated to .NET (mostly)


Somnid said:
It's a little more complicated than that. JIT is just intermediate code. Basically everything is compiled into JIT on the fly, which in turn is compiled into machine instructions on the fly. Fast javascript engines will start compiling certain functions into native machine instructions if they get used enough. Here's a good article on it http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/...script-performance-in-ie10-and-windows-8.aspx.

I doubt it precompiles much of anything. It probably works like everything else that uses a web framework: wraps a webview with an application. This is exactly how Miiverse, TVii and Street View work.
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Agree - actually I think the biggest OS improvements will come from Nintendo just improving the compiler :)
 
tehrik-e-insaaf said:
C# is a "real" language?

Wait... what?
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Every language is a "real" language. Whether it's compiled to native byte code, byte code for some virtual machine, or just interpreted as-is, it'll still be a real language.

Java and C# are generally run via a virtual machine, but you can run them interpreted or even compile and run natively.

C is generally compiled and run natively, but it can also run interpreted or via a virtual machine.

One is not more "real" than the other. One may be lower level than the other, but they're both equally real.
 
Why would you do that? said:
Every language is a "real" language. Whether it's compiled to native byte code, byte code for some virtual machine, or just interpreted as-is, it'll still be a real language.

Java and C# are generally run via a virtual machine, but you can run them interpreted or even compile and run natively.

C is generally compiled and run natively, but it can also run interpreted or via a virtual machine.

One is not more "real" than the other. One may be lower level than the other, but they're both equally real.
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Yes I know. I thought the statement was absurd.

Low level or High level are not real or unreal - it's about making the right choice for the application in question (and what is supported and quick to produce with sufficient depth and available talent)

Hey available talent is one of the reasons why Perl is still used after all :)
 
bullet_happy said:
I am a bit confused. Do you still need a dev kit for just creating games using the Nintendo Web Framework?
Click to expand...

Of course, you need a way to actually run and test the games. :P

Anyways, I haven't heard back yet either. But I didn't have any past games to show off at the time when I applied (though I kinda do now), so I wouldn't be surprised if they might have skipped me. Anyone actually hear back?
 
to be a Wii U developer? Well, to be a Wii U developer it's free (but you need to be a company, which just costs $100 for an LLC and can do over internet).
But you will need a dev-kit, that will cost somewhere around a "high end PC". So prob $3k or so from last I heard.
 
I haven't heard anything either but I am really interested. I would have thought they would have release some more info/updates about this.
 
antonz said:
Quick question. Has anyone heard back yet from Nintendo? Been working on a few projects and waiting to hear something so I can maybe speed up the projects
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I got an e-mail from Wario World. It seems like the next step is to do an official developer application. Which also has NDA stuff, you can check it out at the link. Bunch of fields such as business registration information and such.

After that, I guess you're approved or not, and you get let into wario world :)
 
So, do we have any information on how getting in the program ?

I'd like to port an app to Wii U but I can't get any info, not even basic doc...
 
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