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[rohlfinator]

You know, and this just hit me (others have likely thought of it already)... why can't they just make an opening area that someone who already has the proper skills can break out of?

Their level designers are way into the item lock and key idea, why not skill lock and key our way out of the tutorial?

Makes sense to me. I guess the barrier to this in previous games has been that the tutorial sections generally double as an intro to the story.

But if they could design it in such a way that skilled players could get the full story introduction and then sidestep the initial zone and head off to the first dungeon, that would be a really interesting way of addressing the issue.

 

[Gino]

Would love a Super Guide patch for Majora's Mask on VC

Me too. It's the only zelda game I haven't beaten... just to frustrating.

 

[jufonuk]

I personally Think it will be one of those features that all Developers will copy in the future,
if it allows a player to experience the full game, instead of getting stuck and trading the game in. Then I can see many people adopting it./Or a variant of.

there are definitely a lot of games, by Nintendo or not, that I would have definitely used this feature in.

See it begins

 

[Razien]

My only concern is with disc space. This feature must take a lot of disc space, and A LOT more on a 3D adventure like Zelda (not only disc space, but resources too, because you`d have to have some extra idle processing power and RAM to bring the extra automatic character anytime, but that is another discussion). I can see current Nintendo making the game considerably smaller (and uglier) just to fit the disc.

 

[ZAK]

My only concern is with disc space. This feature must take a lot of disc space, and A LOT more on a 3D adventure like Zelda (not only disc space, but resources too, because you`d have to have some extra idle processing power and RAM to bring the extra automatic character anytime, but that is another discussion). I can see current Nintendo making the game considerably smaller (and uglier) just to fit the disc.

Seems like it's basically just a series of control inputs. That doesn't seem so hard.

 

[JustAnotherOtaku]

Must admit, when the patent was first discovered I immediately dismissed this as a stupid idea. But when I read how it was being implemented in NSMB Wii, I actually think it's a worthwhile addition. I doubt I'd want to use it for that game specifically, but there are definitely a lot of games, by Nintendo or not, that I would have definitely used this feature in.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Can't be anything but good. It won't get in my way and will let players who aren't as experienced at gaming be able to experience the same thing as me. Nintendo doesn't deserve any hate for this.

While I somewhat doubt Zelda Wii will be implementing the Super Guide, this quote is the truth.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

While I somewhat doubt Zelda Wii will be implementing the Super Guide, this quote is the truth.

I still gotta think they're using it for Zelda, otherwise they went through all this trouble developing and patenting this system for one or two Mario games. Nintendo doesn't make an awful lot of other first-party titles that would even require some kind of guide to get through.

 

[RockmanWhore]

Zelda's puzzle are very lackluster these days. If this help system can allow Nintendo to include some more complex stuff it will be pretty awesome.

 

[upandaway]

How would that work? It's easy enough to write AI for Mario (even easier if you just record someone playing which is what this is), but for this, how would it work?

And I don't just mean in the technological aspect. Where and where will it be in the game? It can't only be inside dungeons but making it available everywhere is a bit overkill. You can't really die in Zelda either (and don't you tell me you can, just try and get Game Over in Zelda, it's harder than beating the game) and besides dying doesn't tell you anything about being stuck.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

I still gotta think they're using it for Zelda, otherwise they went through all this trouble developing and patenting this system for one or two Mario games. Nintendo doesn't make an awful lot of other first-party titles that would even require some kind of guide to get through.

That could very well be true too, I'm about 50-50 on it. The patent pictures do make a compelling case.

 

[zigg]

And I don't just mean in the technological aspect. Where and where will it be in the game? It can't only be inside dungeons but making it available everywhere is a bit overkill. You can't really die in Zelda either (and don't you tell me you can, just try and get Game Over in Zelda, it's harder than beating the game) and besides dying doesn't tell you anything about being stuck.

It doesn't have to be death-based. It can very easily be time-based (think getting stuck in a puzzle room), taking hits from a given enemy/boss without damaging it in any way or completely missing its weak point a certain number of times, etc. Both puzzle rooms that reset and bosses have a built-in start that would work exactly like NSMBW's Super Guide; other rooms could reset when you invoke the guide, warping you back to the last door you walked through to show you how to get through a room.

Basically, don't think purely in terms of the implementation that works for NSMBW. There's a number of things that could be done for Zelda, and probably many other franchises as well.

 

[Bit-Bit]

How would that work? It's easy enough to write AI for Mario (even easier if you just record someone playing which is what this is), but for this, how would it work?

And I don't just mean in the technological aspect. Where and where will it be in the game? It can't only be inside dungeons but making it available everywhere is a bit overkill. You can't really die in Zelda either (and don't you tell me you can, just try and get Game Over in Zelda, it's harder than beating the game) and besides dying doesn't tell you anything about being stuck.

Zelda puzzles are usually confined to a room. Sure sometimes they activate/solve a bigger puzzle. But most of the puzzles are confined in each rooms. So it wouldn't be that hard to implement into a Zelda game.

As for where to go next. I really like the way Dead Space and Prince of Persia did it. If you're in the open world and you're not sure of your next destination, just choose the fairy/owl/whatever item and they make a colorful line towards your destination. Solves most problems for making Zelda more streamline.

As long as they stay optional, Nintendo can go nuts with the hardness of the game in order to shut the long time gamers mouth up. Me personally I can just enter a room in a Zelda game and see the solution.

I want a Zelda room where the solutions is not obvious right away to a Zelda veteran player.

 

[Drkirby]

My only concern is with disc space. This feature must take a lot of disc space, and A LOT more on a 3D adventure like Zelda (not only disc space, but resources too, because you`d have to have some extra idle processing power and RAM to bring the extra automatic character anytime, but that is another discussion). I can see current Nintendo making the game considerably smaller (and uglier) just to fit the disc.

A 3D game could take up more space, but a 2D one like Mario, it shouldn't be to hard.

I would love to see it glitch and the Super Guider screw up and die though :lol

 

[Black-Wind]

Wow, just thought I would bumpy this seeing as there was talk of how hard games would be if they used this system. The NSMB Wii thread just had this posted.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/10/07/new-super-mario-bros-wii-is-as-hard-as-contra/

According to some people NSMB Wii is Contra hard.

I like this bit . . .

And that's where the "Super Guide" comes in. Again, go ahead and scoff. I did. But with such a ramped up difficulty, it makes a lot of sense to let the computer handle the tricky bits for folks. After all, nothing makes you put down a game faster than dying 10 times on the same section. It seems like Nintendo has found a way around that issue.

It's because of the Super Guide that the developers were able to crank up the difficulty, knowing that they no longer needed to make the game for the lowest-skilled player. So you're left with what's arguably the most hardcore Mario game you've ever played. Starting to scoff a little less now, aren't you?

 

[Why would you do that?]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/10/07/new-super-mario-bros-wii-is-as-hard-as-contra/

According to some people NSMB Wii is Contra hard.

Oh yes.
Except... I can beat Lost Levels with my eyes closed, including what I think is the hardest level in the game, C-4.

Contra, on the other hand, I somewhat suck at.

Well... if this is how future Nintendo games, especially Zelda, will be, I applaud this so hard.

 

[Somnid]

I'm gonna put my preliminary doubt on NSMB Wii's difficulty. People always say this. Twilight Princess may have been harder than Wind Waker but it's not a huge difference in my mind.

 

[Why would you do that?]

I'm gonna put my preliminary doubt on NSMB Wii's difficulty. People always say this. Twilight Princess may have been harder than Wind Waker but it's not a huge difference in my mind.

Hm. I found Wind Waker to be harder, honestly.
I think it partially has to do with heart containers at the end of the game. For instance, with Makora's Mask, at the final boss, I had only 8 of them. With Wind Waker being a shorter game, you'd have less at the end.

In general, I found Wind Waker's bosses to be harder as well.

I would imagine that, with the Super Guide, it would be easier to ramp up the difficulty of puzzles than bosses, but I hope they do both.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Wow, just thought I would bumpy this seeing as there was talk of how hard games would be if they used this system. The NSMB Wii thread just had this posted.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/10/07/new-super-mario-bros-wii-is-as-hard-as-contra/

According to some people NSMB Wii is Contra hard.

I like this bit . . .

Wow, sounds awesome. I get the feeling that Nintendo's staff have been wanting to make a hard Mario game for a while!

 

[Iron Toaster]

I'm looking forward to it. And I can't wait for Zelda Wii!!

 

[grandjedi6]

But the patents look like this.

So? Nintendo always uses Zelda or Mario to illustrate their patents. All that meant was Nintendo was thinking of that system for some game. And that some game turned out to be New Super Marios Bros. Wii. There is no guarantee that it'll ever be used for anything else, let alone Zelda.

 

[Caesar III]

I don't get the disc space concerns?
They said this feature is not a video of a player but an actual play of the AI. A strong evidence is the failure in the presentation where Luigi died. :lol
I think it is just some kind of AI which is using the game as a player would do and "overrides" the input of the player. somethink like a replay of Trials, where oyu can see the actual button presses on the bottom right. Those replays are fuck small, only a few KB each In Marios case they don't even need such "replay" if they have a great AI, because the AI can solve the levels on it's own, so they only need this. It's something different in Zelda but there the replay would be enough for each room or area imho

oh and @ why would you do that:

yeah, for me Windwaker was harder than Twilight Princess as well. TP was fuck easy :/

 

[Grampasso]

I bet this is a Miyamoto's idea.
So now he can tune up the difficulty how much he wants (I remember an interview where he said something like this happened whenever he checked a project in progress) and still make pussy gamers happy.
Everyone wins \o/ (especially Nintendo)

Would love a Super Guide patch for Majora's Mask on VC

Holy shit, the last part of the game was hard as fuck

Spoiler

The goron final run @_@

 

[John]

As a long time Zelda player, the puzzles aren't exactly puzzles anymore. Just more like elaborate mouse traps I have to set off to advance.

I feel the same way. Last time I played one for the first time I instantly pushed a block at getting in the first dungeon and it moved, revealing some secret. :/

I hadn't thought of demo mode being used this way, so now I'm really looking forward to it if they use it like this. Challenging Nintendo games again? Count me in.

 

[CorporalDork]

Imagine if the 'Guide' player is like a Nintendo developer 'Ghost' and we have Nintendo 'Ghosts' through level to challenge once we've finished the game.

I can SO see Nintendo doing that... This feature is a really good idea so that everyone can finish the game and experience everything, it's such a brilliant idea.

 

[evilromero]

I dunno. You have to die ten times before it kicks in. I can see most casual players just giving up before they reach ten.

 

[zigg]

I don't get the disc space concerns?
They said this feature is not a video of a player but an actual play of the AI. A strong evidence is the failure in the presentation where Luigi died. :lol
I think it is just some kind of AI which is using the game as a player would do and "overrides" the input of the player. somethink like a replay of Trials, where oyu can see the actual button presses on the bottom right. Those replays are fuck small, only a few KB each In Marios case they don't even need such "replay" if they have a great AI, because the AI can solve the levels on it's own, so they only need this. It's something different in Zelda but there the replay would be enough for each room or area imho

Guarantee you it's not AI. An AI that can solve any given Mario level would be substantially difficult to code, and if it did work, wouldn't have the "can't kick in mid-level" restriction. Putting some good in-house players in front of a controller and recording their actions, analogous to an emulator replay, is way more efficient. And it won't take up that much space.

The early build just had a bad replay in it. You're thinking too hard.

I dunno. You have to die ten times before it kicks in. I can see most casual players just giving up before they reach ten.

Eight, I thought? I can see my daughter, who's just making her first tentative steps into Galaxy on her own, having enough persistence to try eight. But maybe she's not one of those "casuals"

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

It's not like it's going to be a secret feature. If you know it kicks in after eight lives you're more likely to keep trying until the Guide is offered.

I also don't understand the Zelda questions. It's uses are obvious in dungeons, and as for the Overworld.. I don't know, maybe they'll have you ask some sort of fairy companion for hints about the next destination! Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Chris R]

I'm actually thinking this might allow Nintendo to make a hard Zelda game again akin to 2nd quest in the NES game

 

[StarEye]

Harder is good. However, who knows if the level designs will be as good as before. They might get lazy and not think things through as much as before, making the levels more unfair than just hard. Lazier puzzle design with weird logic or no logic at all is worse than easy, but well designed puzzles. Consider how easy or illogical most pointnclick adventures have gotten since Internet became big and walkthroughs only a click away. "Eh, this'll be fine, walkthroughs are made for a reason".

They might even be so crazy as to make using the Super Guide mandatory in some rare cases (which would be a hilarious joke, with so many old-skool hardcore fans with their minds set on completing the game all by themselves with no hints and help. Imagine the frustration! ).

 

[xs_mini_neo]

Harder is good. However, who knows if the level designs will be as good as before. They might get lazy and not think things through as much as before, making the levels more unfair than just hard. Lazier puzzle design with weird logic or no logic at all is worse than easy, but well designed puzzles. Consider how easy or illogical most pointnclick adventures have gotten since Internet became big and walkthroughs only a click away. "Eh, this'll be fine, walkthroughs are made for a reason".

They might even be so crazy as to make using the Super Guide mandatory in some rare cases (which would be a hilarious joke, with so many old-skool hardcore fans with their minds set on completing the game all by themselves with no hints and help. Imagine the frustration! ).

Well done.

 

[zigg]

Awesome avatar, StarEye. But please have a little more faith.