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[Rolf NB]

Does it? I've never gotten around to downloading it.

253 blocks of shit. The only worthwhile feature is beaming demos over to the DS, but that they fucked up too by making each demo available only for a limited time period.

My fridge is full with stuff I still frequently play.

Ditto. I'm really getting sick of managing those itty bitty files. If at least the thing had a proper file manager where you could queue multiple files for moving or deletion. If at least it went at a tenth the speed the currently inserted SD card is actually capable of.
:\

 

[Yoboman]

Why would you assume a demo would be significantly larger than a full WiiWare game?

I don't know, why are 360 demos significantly larger than XBLA games?

 

[Wired]

Can't publishers just disguise their demos as free WiiWare stuff?

Are you saying wii owners are stupid?

 

[Dibbz]

So the demo's should be stored on the internal storage? How much space is there on that? This is where you guys store your WiiWare games also? How big are they?

 

[Parl]

- Demos slow down the production process.

- Demos take away the element of surprise/freshness from the final product, important to the entertainment industry.

- Even if the the freshness of the final product isn't hindered all that much due to the demo, the demo can be entertaining enough for the finished product to lose some sales because the demo is good enough for some.

- If the demo isn't "good enough" then maybe then that'd leave a bad impression on the final product.

- If the intention is to reveal the game as late as possible so that others don't copy, or are too late to copy for it to be successful (because the freshness of the new idea has gone), then demos make it easier for others to copy.

Demos do have their advantages too, but the disadvantages might outweight them in Nintendo's eyes.

 

[Rolf NB]

So the demo's should be stored on the internal storage? How much space is there on that? This is where you guys store your WiiWare games also? How big are they?

The Wii has 512MB of flash memory. Wii Ware can get pretty enormous. FFCC: My Life As A King is about 90MB IIRC. N64 VC games are around 25~30MB. SNES games around 8MB. Then there's the channels themselves. Eg the (useless) Nintendo Channel alone is 60+MB. And then you'll have to keep your savegames somewhere.
Fills up fast.

 

[Amir0x]

Since the Wii arrived, the logical excuse for its lack of downloadable demos has been that they'd be too large to reasonably manage in its internal storage: you'd only be able to download a few before you'd run out of space.

I've always considered that a shame, since a lot of Wii games really need to be tried to see if they're worth purchasing--moreso than games on other consoles, I think. Nintendo also constantly said this about the Wii, back before it became such a phenomenon.

Well, anyway, now the lack of space is nullified. Wii Ware and the Nintendo Channel nullified it. If we can have full games available for purchase that take up a large portion of the available storage, then there's no reason we can't have demos of the same size. And the Nintendo channel has DS demos available, so there's also no reason to think Nintendo is against having demos.

The Wii obviously should have a larger storage solution. But even without one, it should have downloadable demos, just like the competition.

I think your presented argument suggests the lack of space is NOT nullified, since Wii Ware and Nintendo Channel made it infinitely worse.

 

[ksamedi]

Demo's are definitly possible. Since the Wii RAM is about 60 Megabytes, a whole stage of SSBB with music and 4 characters could be as small as only 60 to 70 megabytes. Its really not that hard to figure this out. Demo's on 360 or PS3 are that big because they are HD and use surround sound, that makes a whole lot of a difference.

 

[dalin80]

Isnt a chunk of OS/firmware also stored on that 512?

 

[scitek]

Why don't you guys just rent more?

 

[pakkit]

Isnt a chunk of OS/firmware also stored on that 512?

Yes, and unremovable channels.

I want Nintendo Power to release demos.

I do NOT want downloadable demos unless Nintendo says, "Hey looky here guys! It's a 20 GB external HDD and here's our brand new channel exclusively for Wii demos!"

Spoiler

I also want Angelina Jolie to marry me.

 

[Starchasing]

I do NOT want downloadable demos unless Nintendo says, "Hey looky here guys! It's a 20 GB external HDD and here's our brand new channel exclusively for Wii demos!"

But if there is bigger storage then the demos and games will be bigger too, and then you are back to square 1

 

[FightyF]

If Nintendo is making an EXTERNAL HDD, they have the benefit of going with a 3.5 inch HDD, reducing costs big time compared to Sony and MS who both use 2.5 inch HDD.

I've seen 500Gb externals go for $90, but they are very poor quality (connector and heat issues), but I can get a quality external enclosure for $30, and a Seagate 500Gb for $90...effectively all of it for $120 (that includes markup for manufacturer and retailer).

I think Nintendo should go for it.

 

[pakkit]

But if there is bigger storage then the demos and games will be bigger too, and then you are back to square 1

Not if Nintendo say so. It's not like Nintendo can't bully around 3rd Party developers (cough).

 

[Haunted]

I think your presented argument suggests the lack of space is NOT nullified, since Wii Ware and Nintendo Channel made it infinitely worse.

He means that the excuse they used (it would fill up the fridge too quickly) is nullified because they've released stuff that is even bigger than the demos would be.

The excuse is bunk, not the issue itself.

 

[Starchasing]

Not if Nintendo say so. It's not like Nintendo can't bully around 3rd Party developers (cough).

Wii has only 512 mbs of internal storage not only because its cheaper than a HD, but also because it fits Wii´s philosophy.

Wiiware is designed for smaller and more creative games. You get that by:

1) Forcing small size
2) Giving almost total freedom on everything else and that includes no demos unless you want to

 

[agrajag]

Remember the good old days of SNES and Genesis when people didn't give a hoot about downloadable demos and everything was just fine and dandy?

 

[Jme]

You know I wouldn't even be upset if they gave us disc based demos with Nintendo Power. I bet their subscription rate would jump more than enough to cover the extra cost.

Either way, I'd love to have some demos.


And WiiWare has NO EXCUSE NOT TO HAVE DEMOS. Dr. Mario has one and that's cool, except I can't just go grab it myself, which is bullshit. (Anyone want to send me Dr. Mario?)
My Wii # - 0932 3817 1322 3317 - PM me yours if you'll send it please and thanks!

I've been really reluctant to buy WiiWare because I'm sick of spending 1000 points on some N64 game (or whatever) and being disappointed with it.

 

[neight]

The Wii has 512MB of flash memory. Wii Ware can get pretty enormous. FFCC: My Life As A King is about 90MB IIRC. N64 VC games are around 25~30MB. SNES games around 8MB. Then there's the channels themselves. Eg the (useless) Nintendo Channel alone is 60+MB. And then you'll have to keep your savegames somewhere.
Fills up fast.

The Wii does have 512MB but it only lets you use 2000 blocks(256MB). FFCC is not 90MB. Nintendo Channel is 16MB. N64 games are the size they were at as carts so they're 8-32MB plus an extra MB or two for the emulator and html operations guide.

 

[Warm Machine]

Contrary to popular Urban Myths - pretty much every PS2 game used compressed textures, and above all - the assets are usually additionally compressed on discs to reduce load times.

I've never used 16 - 32 bit textures in a PS2 game. It has always been 4 or 8 bit textures because it is the most efficient thing for the machine to use. Now them being compressed on disk is possible but the "source" art for the games I have worked on or games that friends of mine have worked on have almost always been 4 or 8 bit.

 

[Warm Machine]

Remember the good old days of SNES and Genesis when people didn't give a hoot about downloadable demos and everything was just fine and dandy?

Yeah and that was a time before the internet and everything was fine and dandy too so I recommend you pull that ethernet cable out the back of your computer.

 

[itxaka]

One of XBLA's best features is that every arcade game has a demo.

I'd like to see the same for Wiiware and PSN games.

Please. I d not buy some games because I want to try them before. Thanks!

 

[FightyF]

But if there is bigger storage then the demos and games will be bigger too, and then you are back to square 1

With at least a 100Gb external, I don't see that problem happening.

Yeah and that was a time before the internet and everything was fine and dandy too so I recommend you pull that ethernet cable out the back of your computer.

RIP SEGA Channel never forget. It was Virtual Console...but 15 years before its time...

 

[SapientWolf]

Remember the good old days of SNES and Genesis when people didn't give a hoot about downloadable demos and everything was just fine and dandy?

You could usually rent a game and beat it the week it came out back then, and it only cost $5 to do so. But game lengths went up, and rental stores are just not what they used to be.

 

[disappeared]

I'm still surprised threads like this are even made anymore. Trying to put logical thinking and ideas in with the word "Nintendo" is just beating your head against a brick wall. Iwata and pals are in their own fantasy land where everything about the Wii is perfect, and IF by chance something happens to be wrong, they only ask your first-born child for the add-on.

This isn't a troll, it's common goddamned sense.

 

[MightyKAC]

I'm still surprised threads like this are even made anymore. Trying to put logical thinking and ideas in with the word "Nintendo" is just beating your head against a brick wall. Iwata and pals are in their own fantasy land where everything about the Wii is perfect, and IF by chance something happens to be wrong, they only ask your first-born child for the add-on.

This isn't a troll, it's common goddamned sense.

I'm actually glad this thread exists. It means that Wii owners are starting to demand from there console what the competitions giving away as pretty much an after thought. Hopefully this will lead to the realization that their ps3 and 360 counterparts are getting more overall and soon Nintendo will HAVE to start earning all that money for a change.....

 

[disappeared]

I'm actually glad this thread exists. It means that Wii owners are starting to demand from there console what the competitions giving away as pretty much an after thought. Hopefully this will lead to the realization that their ps3 and 360 counterparts are getting more overall and soon Nintendo will HAVE to start earning all that money for a change.....

Whatever helps you sleep at night. The Wii is selling gangbusters whether Nintendo releases a single other game for it or not. The console prints fucking money, and Nintendo and their shareholders know it. You think they really give a shit about you having access to a demo prior to release at this point?

 

[Version 3.0]

I don't know, why are 360 demos significantly larger than XBLA games?

Maybe because of the imposed size limit on XBLA games?

 

[pracer]

Not every game is Super Mario Galaxy; maybe you would like to check how some games are before making the decision of buying or not? Specially with Wii software, where the implementation of the wiimote can be really hit or miss.

Word. My family is affraid to buy a Wii game. And we will NOT buy Wii Ware. In todays world things cost too much cash to take a chance. Once in awhile we buy a VC game. Most of the time we buy XBLA/PSN ... after sampling the Demo first. Same goes for DL'n Demos of full retail games. The GRID Demo sold us on the game for the XB360.

But look Nintendo is Japanesse, they don't do things like we do in the west. They aren't going to embrace Demos. They aren't going to embrace online freebies either. So we get what we get.

 

[hirokazu]

I'm actually glad this thread exists. It means that Wii owners are starting to demand from there console what the competitions giving away as pretty much an after thought. Hopefully this will lead to the realization that their ps3 and 360 counterparts are getting more overall and soon Nintendo will HAVE to start earning all that money for a change.....

You can complain all you want about Nintendo on gaming forums. People have done so for years and years. But do they give a fuck? No :lol

 

[NumberTwo]

I agree. No excuse. And unless a Wiiware title has garnered enough positive reviews from gaming news outlets I'm not touching it. It's just not logical to take your chances and throw money down the drain. Nintendo, get your head out of your ass please kthxbye.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

doesn't need demos imo.. and i think the lack of them is general policy, not a hardware problem.

the internet suffices for me to find out enough, and some of my current faves (shiren ds, my life as a king) would positively suffer since they are the kind of game that reveal by progressive playing. give somebody a "five (game) days demo" of mlaak and they'd probably come back and say it was crap & there was nothing to do. plus just to do that the size of the demo would nearly equal the size of the full game.

on the other side, 10 minutes on youtube is usually enough to work out if a game is one i might like.

i will admit to dl'ing demos through steam, and not once ever buying any of them.

 

[agrajag]

You could usually rent a game and beat it the week it came out back then, and it only cost $5 to do so. But game lengths went up, and rental stores are just not what they used to be.

Heavenly Sword says hello. And countless other titles. And Wiiware games don't cost much more than a rental, why the fuck are people asking for demos?

And to the guy with the clever quip about there not being internet, I had internet during SNES's lifetime, I don't know about you.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

The Wii has 512MB of flash memory. Wii Ware can get pretty enormous. FFCC: My Life As A King is about 90MB IIRC.

43MB.

Then there's the channels themselves. Eg the (useless) Nintendo Channel alone is 60+MB.

Don't know if this is true.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Apathy is the term I'd use to describe how I feel towards this specific issue. Demos are hardly ever representative of a game's quality for me, and I find online resources and the Nintendo Channel to be more helpful in advising me in a purchase. Anecdotally, poor demos have often dissuaded potential buyers. And Lost Winds, with its deliberate pacing, might have suffered from a brief demo. That said, I don't care.

 

[Narag]

Don't know if this is true.

Nintendo Channel - 127
Nintendo Channel Save - 126

I'm fairly certain that FFCC is larger than the two combined parts.

 

[Rolf NB]

The Wii does have 512MB but it only lets you use 2000 blocks(256MB). FFCC is not 90MB. Nintendo Channel is 16MB. N64 games are the size they were at as carts so they're 8-32MB plus an extra MB or two for the emulator and html operations guide.

I figured a block is a quarter meg, just going by 512MB/however many blocks I had free when my Wii was new. If a block is just 128k, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[ampere]

Nintendo probably thinks we don't want demos. Just like how we didn't want online play last gen.

Stupid Nintendo -_-

 

[Version 3.0]

Nintendo probably thinks we don't want demos. Just like how we didn't want online play last gen.

Stupid Nintendo -_-

You may be right. They're definitely good at keeping their heads in the sand about some things. They really should know better, though: they SOLD ~200,000 copies of the Gamecube Soul Calibur II/Sonic DX/Splinter Cell/Viewtiful Joe/Billy Hatcher demo disc last gen. Obviously demos are in demand.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Nintendo probably thinks we don't want demos. Just like how we didn't want online play last gen.

Stupid Nintendo -_-

Personally, I don't want demos, and, I don't want online play. And judging by the success of Wii and games which provide local-multiplayer experiences on Wii, I'd say Nintendo is right. I don't want to pick a fight, but this discussion isn't as one-sided as it is being presented.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

What's going to happen if developers start taking time to make demo's and their games still sell 10 times less than the latest shovelware? Then the 3rd party support really takes a dive.

 

[Fafalada]

I've never used 16 - 32 bit textures in a PS2 game. It has always been 4 or 8 bit textures because it is the most efficient thing for the machine to use.

So in other words you used compressed maps.
Same size(4-8bits/texel) as the DXTC (Wii/360/PS3) which are supposed to "save" space (in earlier post I was replying to).

Now them being compressed on disk is possible but the "source" art for the games I have worked on or games that friends of mine have worked on have almost always been 4 or 8 bit.

Or you could work in 32bit and use tools to do the compression to 4/8bit for you(editing in 4/8bit is really a waste of time generally). Anyway I mentioned disc compression because on average, running a simple LZW algorithm over texture&geometry assets will save you 30-50%, which means up to 2x faster load times, among other things.

 

[Dark Octave]

Screw demos. There is no excuse for the Wii to still be absent from Wal-Mart store shelves a year and a half after launch.

 

[Shito]

so there's also no reason to think Nintendo is against having demos.

Nintendo is against having demos.
They hate it, we know it, and we know how illogical they can be.

Why don't you guys just rent more?

Because we don't all live in a country where rental is a solution.
Hint: yurop.

 

[jmdajr]

Stupid, stupid Nintendo....

Just thinking the other day about how cool it would be to try a demo of boom blox.
If I thought it was fun, maybe then i would buy it.

 

[Version 3.0]

What's going to happen if developers start taking time to make demo's and their games still sell 10 times less than the latest shovelware? Then the 3rd party support really takes a dive.

Let's wait for publishers to start putting effort all the way through, from concept, to development, all the way to marketing, before we declare unsuccessful demos to be the last straw, eh?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Nintendo needs an HDD in every wii. End thread. Now, we get all these weird things. Even with an add on HDD, you probably won't get a lot of demos. Why? It costs money and if publishers can't reach all of the consumers, they won't do it.

 

[Version 3.0]

Nintendo is against having demos.
They hate it, we know it, and we know how illogical they can be.

I'm not so sure. I think, being very financially driven, they give demos a very low priority because they're unproven from a return-on-investment standpoint; there's very little evidence that they improve sales. There's even been some (badly done) research that suggests they do the opposite.

But you're right, they're often illogical, so who knows.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Nintendo Channel - 127
Nintendo Channel Save - 126

I'm fairly certain that FFCC is larger than the two combined parts.

Yeah. Those two combined comes to ~32 megabytes. FFCCMLaaK is ~290 blocks, with DLC and saves taking very little space.