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[Loudninja]

I think it's absolutely fine if people don't want to buy the game anymore because the developers made a decision you don't like. That's true regardless of the decision -- whether it's to render in 900p or because they removed a pose/character/scene/whatever.

As a consumer, you are allowed to purchase or not purchase a game for any reason whatsoever.

It's also fine for devs to make decisions you don't like, and it doesn't make them horrible people. It means they have a different viewpoint than you. If you don't like it, I suggest you don't purchase the game. You're also welcome to complain here, but I do ask that you do so in a coherent way, using actual sentences, rather than vomiting "lol PC" in the thread, because otherwise the thread is just filled with garbage and then I feel the need to get out a sweeper.

We could probably tone down the Poe's Law level sarcasm, too. You guys take your life in your own hands when you do that, because we can't always tell if you're pretending to be an asshole, or you really are one.

Agreed.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I think it's absolutely fine if people don't want to buy the game anymore because the developers made a decision you don't like. That's true regardless of the decision -- whether it's to render in 900p or because they removed a pose/character/scene/whatever.

As a consumer, you are allowed to purchase or not purchase a game for any reason whatsoever.

It's also fine for devs to make decisions you don't like, and it doesn't make them horrible people. It means they have a different viewpoint than you. If you don't like it, I suggest you don't purchase the game. You're also welcome to complain here, but I do ask that you do so in a coherent way, using actual sentences, rather than vomiting "lol PC" in the thread, because otherwise the thread is just filled with garbage and then I feel the need to get out a sweeper.

We could probably tone down the Poe's Law level sarcasm, too. You guys take your life in your own hands when you do that, because we can't always tell if you're pretending to be an asshole, or you really are one.

He honestly seemed genuinely conufused that people would post on a message board about being upset about a popular feature in a popular video game being removed. Like you gotta try and break it down to some people...

 

[SuperInuit]

I don't really care about doughnut drake's inclusion or not, I'm more fussed at the reason given. "I thought we'd matured beyond that."
Come on. You're making Uncharted. You made The Last of Us. Do this when you move past works which are on the nice border between homage and all out rip off, then you can be condescending about it.

 

[stargateheaven]

It sounds like they asked themselves "why not" and came up with an answer. "Maybe we don't want to include a fat joke this time."

Like, is the hard thing to understand here that it IS in fact a joke at the expense of fat people? Is that what is being disputed here?

Donut Drake was created not because it's a neutral representation of an underrepresented demographic in video games. It was created because it's funny to see a morbidly obese guy do action hero shit. Because morbidly obese people are extremely lacking in physical capabilities. That's the joke. Is this in dispute?


For the record, as if this is relevant, I'm not fat, nor am I personally offended by fat Drake. I simply believe that the people at Naughty Dog may have genuinely changed their feelings on the matter of fat Drake and it's not driven by fear but rather compassion. If a group of creatives have decided they'd rather not contribute to the millions of tiny digs at fat people that are omnipresent, I can respect that.

is it really a "joke"? it's just another skin.
His animations don't change. He's not slower. He doesn't make the game harder.

It is literally just a skin change. What's the big deal?

It's only funny to me cos it's different than how nate normally looks.

Just like skinny mario in mario maker is funny.

 

[Plum]

I think it's absolutely fine if people don't want to buy the game anymore because the developers made a decision you don't like. That's true regardless of the decision -- whether it's to render in 900p or because they removed a pose/character/scene/whatever.

As a consumer, you are allowed to purchase or not purchase a game for any reason whatsoever.

This. People who choose to vote with their wallets are not "idiots" (if the reason isn't blatantly idiotic, like this isn't) no matter how petty the issue may seem to others.

 

[MikeDown]

Pre-cancel ordered!!!

 

[Obliterator]

This seems like a classic case of over thinking something.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Or just do the head on a regular Drake body.

 

[Raylan]

I think it's absolutely fine if people don't want to buy the game anymore because the developers made a decision you don't like. That's true regardless of the decision -- whether it's to render in 900p or because they removed a pose/character/scene/whatever.

As a consumer, you are allowed to purchase or not purchase a game for any reason whatsoever.

It's also fine for devs to make decisions you don't like, and it doesn't make them horrible people. It means they have a different viewpoint than you. If you don't like it, I suggest you don't purchase the game. You're also welcome to complain here, but I do ask that you do so in a coherent way, using actual sentences, rather than vomiting "lol PC" in the thread, because otherwise the thread is just filled with garbage and then I feel the need to get out a sweeper.

We could probably tone down the Poe's Law level sarcasm, too. You guys take your life in your own hands when you do that, because we can't always tell if you're pretending to be an asshole, or you really are one.

Yep. Good post.

Okay Naughty Dog, how about a compromise?

Donut Drake is now a large, sentient donut voiced by Nolan North.

Like Tofu in Resident Evil.

OR....what about a simple character creator? Yeah, not really a big creation tool, but just a small tool, where you can edit certain parts of your multiplayer character. Big head, bigger torso and so on. Aaaaaaaaaand problem solved?

 

[Azalean]

I think it's absolutely fine if people don't want to buy the game anymore because the developers made a decision you don't like. That's true regardless of the decision -- whether it's to render in 900p or because they removed a pose/character/scene/whatever.

As a consumer, you are allowed to purchase or not purchase a game for any reason whatsoever.

It's also fine for devs to make decisions you don't like, and it doesn't make them horrible people. It means they have a different viewpoint than you. If you don't like it, I suggest you don't purchase the game. You're also welcome to complain here, but I do ask that you do so in a coherent way, using actual sentences, rather than vomiting "lol PC" in the thread, because otherwise the thread is just filled with garbage and then I feel the need to get out a sweeper.

We could probably tone down the Poe's Law level sarcasm, too. You guys take your life in your own hands when you do that, because we can't always tell if you're pretending to be an asshole, or you really are one.

Well put. I personally don't mind one way or another about this but if people are not happy with the removal of Donut Drake they have every right to be. As does ND have a right to remove him.

 

[MMaRsu]

Stop telling me that I don't have the right to voice my discontent about their discontent.

Id like to know why you are discontent about other people's discontent?

 

[Toxi]

is it really a "joke"? it's just another skin.
His animations don't change. He's not slower. He doesn't make the game harder.

It is literally just a skin change. What's the big deal?

It's only funny to me cos it's different than how nate normally looks.

Just like skinny mario in mario maker is funny.

It's 100% intended to be a joke by the developers.

It's funny because of the juxtaposition of a morbidly obese person doing crazy action hero stunts.

You as the audience may or may not agree that it's humorous.

 

[checkeredknight]

If they've matured past anything then hopefully their next main character in whatever game will be a little chubby or even fat, and won't look like a Hollywood actor, yeah?

This. If you're striving for realism, actually make your characters realistic.

 

[Toxi]

This. If you're striving for realism, actually make your characters realistic.

They don't mention realism in the article in the OP.

 

[Griss]

I never found Donut Drake humorous and didn't like him but they should have left him in for his fans.

Same way I feel about the questionable stuff in Japanese games. I don't like it, and would prefer it wasn't there, but I don't think it should be removed.

 

[Taker34]

We could probably tone down the Poe's Law level sarcasm, too. You guys take your life in your own hands when you do that, because we can't always tell if you're pretending to be an asshole, or you really are one.

Ok but how are people supposed to get a tag then?

 

[Pyrrhus]

Speaking personally as a fat piece of shit, I thought Donut Drake was good fun. I'll miss the feature.

 

[Kinyou]

I doubt clipping in a bonus joke mode was the problem, especially when the game's director already gave a reason.

I think it would depend on how extensive and extreme it gets. And while Neil gives us a reason I'd be surprised if it was the only one.

 

[mishakoz]

I don't have a problem with this in particular, but doesn't it seem like game don't have "fun" with themselves anymore? Uncharted had a couple of fun tweaks, next gen filter, doughnut drake, but now Uncharted and all the industry have shied away from cheat codes and new game + tweaks, stuff that make the game "funnier" or more interesting.

It started happening about the time the PS3 and 360 released. All of a sudden, no more "cheats", no more "god mode", "no clip", "give me all the guns" etc.

And no more funny stuff like Doughnut drake and next gen filter. Its just a bummer, I love cracking open an older game and finding some nifty cheat codes that screw up the game.

Games are serious business now.

 

[Pokemaniac]

As someone who's obese, the reasoning for this decision bothers me. Being this fat is a health issue. It is not something which should be glorified.

 

[endlessflood]

Isn't this the opposite of what the fat acceptance movement would want?

There's a fat acceptance movement? I'm not sure if you're joking or if that's a serious cultural development in North America. Why would you accept something that's preventable/treatable and has such serious health implications? People should be encouraged to avoid obesity in the same way that they're encouraged not to smoke or binge drink.

 

[Mechazawa]

As someone who's obese, the reasoning for this decision bothers me. Being this fat is a health issue. It is not something which should be glorified.

I think their point was that it's not something that should be made a gag either, though.

 

[besada]

As someone who's obese, the reasoning for this decision bothers me. Being this fat is a health issue. It is not something which should be glorified.

I'm not sure how removal of the skin glorifies obesity. There's a fairly big gap between glorifying something and making fun of it.

 

[tfur]

Pretty brave of them to not include a member of America's majority demographic in the cast.

I was actually expecting this to be spun into a fat shaming angle. I guess we still have time left on the internet for that to happen.

I honestly do think it could be a legitimate one, since removing it is excluding a section of people. Probably the only way everyone would be happy, is to have a body mass slider from anorexic to obese.

 

[idolminds]

There's a fat acceptance movement? I'm not sure if you're joking or if that's a serious cultural development in North America. Why would you accept something that's preventable/treatable and has such serious health implications? People should be encouraged to avoid obesity in the same way that they're encouraged not to smoke or binge drink.

It's less "Being fat is awesome!" and more like "Don't hate your own body because you aren't a supermodel."

 

[Moosichu]

I'm not sure how removal of the skin glorifies obesity. There's a fairly big gap between glorifying something and making fun of it.

So the question is. Do you feel the skin in the first 2 games made fun of obesity? I'm genuinely curious and can see both sides, but personally err on the side of it being innocent humour. Like an earlier poster said, the comedic affect comes from the fact that the animation tech is very impressive and that everything else in the game is completely unchanged. I never felt it was "haha he's fat". But I could be wrong.


Body image is a tricky subject though. I've known and been close to anorexic and obese people. Yet I wouldn't be comfortable with an 'anorexic' skin. Although they are completely different issues but entangled in complicated ways.

 

[potatohead]

Is it exclusion or a parody or just a light-hearted joke?

It is a different thing to everyone.

And it's OK to not buy based on their decision to remove it. It's also OK not to care.

I'll kind of miss it. But it doesn't affect my decision to buy.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

No doubt they were worried about the social media shitstorm once unlocked and shared and laughed at.

 

[besada]

So the question is. Do you feel the skin in the first 2 games made fun of obesity?

I think it may have been offensive to some obese people. I think it's pretty clearly making fun of obesity, but whether it's doing so in a fun and friendly way or a hurtful way is going to depend entirely on the viewer. Clearly some players -- including obese ones -- enjoyed it, but Druckmann seems to have felt that it could also be a hurtful thing, and since it wasn't particularly important to the game, removed it.

I think the anorexic skin notion is an interesting one. I think we, as a culture, acknowledge that anorexia is a mental problem, while treating obesity in a fundamentally different fashion. I have a difficult time imagining a developer finding it okay to make an anorexic skin.

 

[Plum]

No doubt they were worried about the social media shitstorm once unlocked and shared and laughed at.

I doubt it. There wasn't any shitstorm when the Nathan Drake Collection came out and they added new trophies called "Fat and the Furious" along with adding him into UC3.

 

[Henkka]

I think it may have been offensive to some obese people. I think it's pretty clearly making fun of obesity, but whether it's doing so in a fun and friendly way or a hurtful way is going to depend entirely on the viewer. Clearly some players -- including obese ones -- enjoyed it, but Druckmann seems to have felt that it could also be a hurtful thing, and since it wasn't particularly important to the game, removed it.

I think the anorexic skin notion is an interesting one. I think we, as a culture, acknowledge that anorexia is a mental problem, while treating obesity in a fundamentally different fashion. I have a difficult time imagining a developer finding it okay to make an anorexic skin.

It couldn't be called anorexic and it wouldn't show his ribs or something, but I don't think anyone would object to a 'skinny Drake' skin.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I'm not sure how removal of the skin glorifies obesity. There's a fairly big gap between glorifying something and making fun of it.

The issue I have here is that being that fat really isn't healthy. There is no real situation where that's a healthy body type to have, especially with the clear implication that it's due to overeating.

The real core of this to me, is that removing the skin in an apparent attempt to not offend people, kinda comes of as saying that it's not inherently problematic to have that kind of body to begin with, and goes to encourage the kind of people who use the "fat acceptance" thing as a way to legitimize their unhealthy lifestyle.

I suppose I may be projecting a bit, but it just makes me uncomfortable when people say something that can be construed as "being really fat isn't a problem".

 

[dezzy8]

No fun allowed.

 

[Moosichu]

I think it may have been offensive to some obese people. I think it's pretty clearly making fun of obesity, but whether it's doing so in a fun and friendly way or a hurtful way is going to depend entirely on the viewer. Clearly some players -- including obese ones -- enjoyed it, but Druckmann seems to have felt that it could also be a hurtful thing, and since it wasn't particularly important to the game, removed it.

I think the anorexic skin notion is an interesting one. I think we, as a culture, acknowledge that anorexia is a mental problem, while treating obesity in a fundamentally different fashion. I have a difficult time imagining a developer finding it okay to make an anorexic skin.

I'm actually thinking about this a lot now. It'd definitely a nuanced issue and I ultimately it might be for the best. It's provided a lot of food for thought!

However, I do really hope there are some other interesting skins in the game to show off the real time cutscenes. Maybe old Drake? Young Drake?

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

The issue I have here is that being that fat really isn't healthy. There is no real situation where that's a healthy body type to have, especially with the clear implication that it's due to overeating.

The real core of this to me, is that removing the skin in an apparent attempt to not offend people, kinda comes of as saying that it's not inherently problematic to have that kind of body to begin with, and goes to encourage the kind of people who use the "fat acceptance" thing as a way to legitimize their unhealthy lifestyle.

I suppose I may be projecting a bit, but it just makes me uncomfortable when people say something that can be construed as "being really fat isn't a problem".

See, the problem with this kind of thinking and others who share this viewpoint is that you're not doing anything to help the so-called 'fat problem' by thinking that you need to constantly shove fat shaming into people's faces. Being fat isn't like laying on some bed of roses. It's insulting to think that the only reason people are fat is because they just don't realize how bad it is for them and that they just need more people to tell them so to change their situation. That shit is already everywhere and studies have shown that all it does is promote further poor habits due to the stress it puts on a person.

 

[bomblord1]

That shit is already everywhere and studies have shown that all it does is promote further poor habits due to the stress it puts on a person.

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/ayelet.fishbach/research/fef compass 2010.pdf

Other motivation theories make quite the opposite prediction, suggesting that negative feedback increases motivation more than positive feedback. For example, cybernetic models of self-regulation propose that positive feedback on successes provides a sense of partial goal attainment, signaling that less effort is needed to accomplish the goal. In contrast, negative feedback on lack of successes signals that more effort is needed and encourages goal pursuit

In this article, we argue against a universal answer to the relative impact of positive and negative feedback. Instead, we suggest that the motivational advantage of positive and negative feedback comes into play under different sets of circumstances. We accordingly explore when each type of feedback is more effective in motivating goal pursuit

http://www.shape.com/lifestyle/mind-and-body/punishment-can-be-key-incentive-exercise

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070048

Workout motivation is a hot topic these days and, if Instagram, Pinterest, and Facebook are any indication, treat days, finish line medals, and other rewards are the most popular methods. But if you're still not sticking to your goals, you might need fewer "carrots" and more "sticks"—a new study found punishment is more motivating for people than positive reinforcement. Call it 50 Shades of Grey, gym style. (Here's another 22 Ways to Stay Motivated to Lose Weight.)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-05/wuso-cos050615.php

The study found that losses -- or punishments -- had a measured impact two to three times greater than gains -- or rewards.

Interestingly

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070048

These effects held when controlling for demographic factors (age, sex, ethnicity, education) and when baseline BMI was included as a covariate. These effects were also specific to weight discrimination; other forms of discrimination (e.g., sex, race) were unrelated to risk of obesity at follow-up. The present research demonstrates that, in addition to poorer mental health outcomes, weight discrimination has implications for obesity. Rather than motivating individuals to lose weight, weight discrimination increases risk for obesity.

Individuals cope with discriminatory experiences in a number of ways. A growing literature links weight bias with a number of coping behaviors, including problematic eating [6], [20] and avoidance of physical activity [7], [21]. For example, high school students who report feeling negative emotions due to weight-based victimization are more likely to cope by avoiding physical activity, including gym class, and are more likely to report increased food consumption

Regardless Doughnut Drake does not fit under

These beliefs about individuals with obesity are often translated into negative attitudes [2], discrimination*, and verbal and physical assaults [4].
*Discrimination is distinct from prejudice and negative attitudesin that it refers to unequal treatment of people because of their membership to a particular group

 

[paragonpro]

As someone who used to be very overweight and was heavy when I originally played the uc games, I never found fat drake offensive

 

[Palmer27]

BIG shame
I do believe they've overthought this.

 

[ODDI]

Can we atleast have him in the multiplayer? pretty please?

 

[Rurunaki]

It's because society has become so sensitive isn't it Neil?

 

[lazypants]

I don't really understand how donut drake could be offensive to someone. Could somebody walk me through the thought process of the type of person who feels like donut drake is an attack on them or offends them in some way?

Am I somehow hurting feelings with my avatar? should I change it?

 

[Christhor]

Naught Dog. This dog can naught tricks.

 

[Phu]

I think it may have been offensive to some obese people. I think it's pretty clearly making fun of obesity, but whether it's doing so in a fun and friendly way or a hurtful way is going to depend entirely on the viewer. Clearly some players -- including obese ones -- enjoyed it, but Druckmann seems to have felt that it could also be a hurtful thing, and since it wasn't particularly important to the game, removed it.

I think the anorexic skin notion is an interesting one. I think we, as a culture, acknowledge that anorexia is a mental problem, while treating obesity in a fundamentally different fashion. I have a difficult time imagining a developer finding it okay to make an anorexic skin.

While some people may become obese due to a mental disorder (like eating to deal with depression) or maybe even a genetic quirk, many more are that way due to poor diet and not enough exercise. Most people can probably see themselves eating 4+ Krispy Kremes no problem, but how many we actually decide to eat is likely telling of how we normally approach food. Not moving is relaxing, eating junk and eating in excess feels good. For anorexia though, for most of us, we'll likely hit a moment where our "I NEED TO EAT TO LIVE" instincts will kick in and we'll manage to stay fed enough without thinking about it. A serious mental disorder/illness is needed to push us past out point and reject food as much as possible. In the other direction, though, it's easy to eat way too much and too poor quality food before our "WE ARE FULL TIME TO STOP" gauge kick in. If someone makes an anorexic character/skin, it pretty much has to be tied to mental issues, but I wouldn't say that's the case with obese characters/skins.

 

[Kinyou]

Naught Dog. This dog can naught tricks.

Maybe they should just drop the Naughty part.

Uncharted 4 developed by Dog

 

[Devilinthiscity]

After reading most of the thread, I never realized how much people actually liked the Donut Drake character model. I see it up there with the big head mode that used to be in a lot of games. I don't really find it offensive, but understand their decision not to include it. If they had not said anything about it all I doubt people would be up in arms. Still, I think it is kind of silly that some people are not going to be buying the game over this.

 

[Lord Error]

UC3 didn't have him either. There was no boycott.

I have to admit it was pretty awesome seeing someone so heavy do all those acrobatics in the game, but on the other hand it was a bit cringey.

 

[Shifty]

UC3 didn't have him either. There was no boycott.

Was there some sort of statement about it, or did it happen quietly?

I for one am wondering if this would have even been a thing had nothing been said.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

After reading most of the thread, I never realized how much people actually liked the Donut Drake character model. I see it up there with the big head mode that used to be in a lot of games. I don't really find it offensive, but understand their decision not to include it. If they had not said anything about it all I doubt people would be up in arms. Still, I think it is kind of silly that some people are not going to be buying the game over this.

Given the nature of the game with crumbling handholds, floors buckling underfoot, giant leaps and tight squeezes between narrow cave walls make for quite a hilarious experience.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

UC3 didn't have him either. There was no boycott.

I have to admit it was pretty awesome seeing someone so heavy do all those acrobatics in the game, but on the other hand it was a bit cringey.

Was there some sort of statement about it, or did it happen quietly?

I for one am wondering if this would have even been a thing had nothing been said.

UC3 didn't have ANY skins and people were upset about that.

 

[Kaiken]

Donut Drake can be a Hero too!