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[MutFox]

SONY could also pay Nintendo to use their rumble tech.

 

[pr0cs]

SONY could also pay Nintendo to use their rumble tech.

They don't want to pay Immersion but they'd like to pay Nintendo, their primary competitor in Japan?

Interesting logic there though I don't buy it.

 

[MutFox]

They don't want to pay Immersion but they'd like to pay Nintendo, their primary competitor in Japan?

Interesting logic there though I don't buy it.

Well they gotta pay one of them...
Wonder who would sell cheaper...

Or they could come up with their own rumble tech. (Don't see that happening.)

Either way, they'll be paying Nintendo or MS.

 

[Grayman]

coming up with their own rumble tech is what got them to the problem they have now.

 

[Tellaerin]

coming up with their own rumble tech is what got them to the problem they have now.

So it's bad to try to develop your own technology rather than just licensing someone else's? That's what it sounds like you're implying.

 

[Grayman]

So it's bad to try to develop your own technology rather than just licensing someone else's? That's what it sounds like you're implying.

they developed their own independently that unfortunately was patented by another company on the opposite side of the world from them.

 

[MutFox]

They should release rumble enabled controllers in Japan,
that work with systems in other regions.

Importing FTW!

 

[Tellaerin]

they developed their own independently that unfortunately was patented by another company on the opposite side of the world from them.

I know. That doesn't mean that developing your own tech is guaranteed to get you into trouble - the situation could just as easily have been reversed. And Sony R&D may yet develop a non-infringing rumble solution of their own. Time will tell. I don't see them doing any kind of business with Immersion at this point, regardless.

 

[gtmax]

I'm not buying GT5 if this is true, and i can't believe that Kaz would let this happen to his baby.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3156211

"Sony Computer Entertainment America confirmed that there would be no
supported force feedback technology with its PlayStation 3. They told 1UP
the following:

All PS3 games are programmed for the SIXAXIS which doesn't
have force feedback, therefore the force feedback in the
wheels won't be recognized."

I'm not steering a ****ing car by leaning my body left and right. **** that.

Where's Enthusia 2?

 

[Zaptruder]

I'm not buying GT5 if this is true, and i can't believe that Kaz would let this happen to his baby.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3156211

"Sony Computer Entertainment America confirmed that there would be no
supported force feedback technology with its PlayStation 3. They told 1UP
the following:

All PS3 games are programmed for the SIXAXIS which doesn't
have force feedback, therefore the force feedback in the
wheels won't be recognized."

I'm not steering a ****ing car by leaning my body left and right. **** that.

Where's Enthusia 2?

****in bull. So ****in bull.

And I'm not entirely sure which shitheap is behind it... but I'm guessing Immersion, given that Phil Harrison was talking about FF and 'vertically integrated' controllers like TFF wheels, and specifically mentioning Kazunori and GT.

The line they're toting with the sixaxis is the stupidest most patronizing line out there though... uh... it would interfere with the motion sensing... uh... our controller has no rumble, thus no rumble will be had by anyone!11

 

[Teknopathetic]

Ugh.

 

[gmoran]

I'm not buying GT5 if this is true, and i can't believe that Kaz would let this happen to his baby.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3156211

"Sony Computer Entertainment America confirmed that there would be no
supported force feedback technology with its PlayStation 3. They told 1UP
the following:

All PS3 games are programmed for the SIXAXIS which doesn't
have force feedback, therefore the force feedback in the
wheels won't be recognized."

I'm not steering a ****ing car by leaning my body left and right. **** that.

Where's Enthusia 2?

Yep, it's this patronizing response that finally convinced me there was little joy to be had waiting for a PS3 - so purchased a non-tard 360 yesterday with wireless wheel, gears and a LG 26" HD TV. All ace, gears looks awesome, PGR3 looks very nice espesh in cockpit view, and wheel works reasonably well - not as nice as my GT Pro, but given Sony are signaling that era is now gone.

In comparison to GT Pro - down to 270, pedals have less resistance, feedback not as strong and feels less involving. Early days, only had about 15 minutes playing last night.

 

[Bad_Boy]

eh..
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5256956&postcount=131
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5266073&postcount=134

 

[Diablohead]

eh..
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5256956&postcount=131
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5266073&postcount=134

I guess ps3 owners are going to have to import for rumble features on the wheels then, a bit of a shame.

 

[chespace]

Yep, it's this patronizing response that finally convinced me there was little joy to be had waiting for a PS3 - so purchased a non-tard 360 yesterday with wireless wheel, gears and a LG 26" HD TV. All ace, gears looks awesome, PGR3 looks very nice espesh in cockpit view, and wheel works reasonably well - not as nice as my GT Pro, but given Sony are signaling that era is now gone.

In comparison to GT Pro - down to 270, pedals have less resistance, feedback not as strong and feels less involving. Early days, only had about 15 minutes playing last night.

You did good, my man. PGR3 is cool with FFB wheel, but we're building Forza 2 around the force feedback wheel from the ground up so you can expect a perfectly tuned experience. In fact, Dan has been tuning the FFB wheel intensely for the past couple months and it's now at a state he's happy with. As for for feedback strength, I need to go back and play with my DFP again but playing Forza 2 on the 360 wheel feels similarly as powerful and at times exhausting.

 

[Rorschach]

You did good, my man. PGR3 is cool with FFB wheel, but we're building Forza 2 around the force feedback wheel from the ground up so you can expect a perfectly tuned experience. In fact, Dan has been tuning the FFB wheel intensely for the past couple months and it's now at a state he's happy with. As for for feedback strength, I need to go back and play with my DFP again but playing Forza 2 on the 360 wheel feels similarly as powerful and at times exhausting.

That's great, but I wish they came out with a new one just for Forza 2 with better pedals 900 degree steering. Limit edition Forza wheel...make it happen! Or let me use my PC wheel.

eh..
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5256956&postcount=131
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5266073&postcount=134

...then why does...wtf is going on? :|

 

[Fess]

...then why does...wtf is going on? :|

The japanese GT:HD demo have FF implemented. But the US demo don't. It's all very confusing, especially since people at gtplanet are now reporting that the japanese demo have been patched and don't have FF anymore.

 

[chespace]

The japanese GT:HD demo have FF implemented. But the US demo don't. It's all very confusing, especially since people at gtplanet are now reporting that the japanese demo have been patched and don't have FF anymore.

:O wow... I guess there's no fudging this lawsuit even across territories.

 

[MasterMFauli]

they developed their own independently that unfortunately was patented by another company on the opposite side of the world from them.

WTH?
And you do believe that?
That Sony developed exactly the same rumble-technique, without knowing it is alreasy there and licensed by another company?

uh....

 

[Grayman]

had you heard of immersion in the mid 90s? What if you were a corporation in Japan?

It seems very plausible.

 

[Rorschach]

They don't want to pay Immersion but they'd like to pay Nintendo, their primary competitor in Japan?

Interesting logic there though I don't buy it.

MS has stake in Immersion and that's their primar competitor in the US. Plus, they are stubborn and feel that they are right on the issue. It is a pretty silly idea, though.

 

[Apex]

The japanese GT:HD demo have FF implemented. But the US demo don't. It's all very confusing, especially since people at gtplanet are now reporting that the japanese demo have been patched and don't have FF anymore.

Link?

Ed. Ok, only affect US PS3.

 

[Fess]

:O wow... I guess there's no fudging this lawsuit even across territories.

Kind of, but it seems like only the US machines are being affected so far. There are ways to download the japanese demo to a US machine, and that's what people from the US have been doing for the last couple of days since there was no FF in the US demo. But now the japanese demo has been updated so that you only get FF on japanese PS3's. :/

 

[Fess]

Link?

Big thread about this whole mess

direct link to post with summary

 

[gmoran]

You did good, my man. PGR3 is cool with FFB wheel, but we're building Forza 2 around the force feedback wheel from the ground up so you can expect a perfectly tuned experience. In fact, Dan has been tuning the FFB wheel intensely for the past couple months and it's now at a state he's happy with. As for for feedback strength, I need to go back and play with my DFP again but playing Forza 2 on the 360 wheel feels similarly as powerful and at times exhausting.

Good to hear. The very positive response to Forza last year and the Forza teams obvious enthusiasm were factors in my decision. I've read with interest your posts on NeoGaf (particularly hints that it may support logitech wheels, though I'm assuming that isn't on the cards anymore).

 

[Alec]

So what's the best wheel for GT4? I just bought an HD and some PS2 Component cables.

I know it's off-topic, but I wanna be angry, too!

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Having MGS4 and GT on a console w/ no rumble/FFB is a ****ing insult.

 

[chespace]

Good to hear. The very positive response to Forza last year and the Forza teams obvious enthusiasm were factors in my decision. I've read with interest your posts on NeoGaf (particularly hints that it may support logitech wheels, though I'm assuming that isn't on the cards anymore).

Never assume anything.

 

[Apex]

So what's the best wheel for GT4? I just bought an HD and some PS2 Component cables.

I know it's off-topic, but I wanna be angry, too!

Not full functionality (no clutch and only sequential gears) but the G25 is the best wheel for GT4, the feedback and feeling is a step over the original Driving Force Pro.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

The japanese GT:HD demo have FF implemented. But the US demo don't. It's all very confusing, especially since people at gtplanet are now reporting that the japanese demo have been patched and don't have FF anymore.

The GTHD movie didn't show any FF. Yes, the wheel is compatible but I still have to see proof the Japanes version features FF.

 

[chaostrophy]

You did good, my man. PGR3 is cool with FFB wheel, but we're building Forza 2 around the force feedback wheel from the ground up so you can expect a perfectly tuned experience. In fact, Dan has been tuning the FFB wheel intensely for the past couple months and it's now at a state he's happy with. As for for feedback strength, I need to go back and play with my DFP again but playing Forza 2 on the 360 wheel feels similarly as powerful and at times exhausting.

What about using the DFP with 360 games- is there anything stopping 360 devs from supporting it?

 

[kiUNiT]

What about using the DFP with 360 games- is there anything stopping 360 devs from supporting it?

Never assume anything.

chespace?

 

[Gek54]

In comparison to GT Pro - down to 270, pedals have less resistance, feedback not as strong and feels less involving. Early days, only had about 15 minutes playing last night.

I had the same experience, not a horrible wheel but its deffinitely a step down from the DFP and 2 steps down from the G25, better than the Driving Force(GT3 wheel) though.

Never assume anything.

F'n cocktease, I swear to god.

 

[isamu]

Interesting change from last generation where Xbox did not have any type of FF and PS2 had.
Ho and where is Isamu when you need him? He'll go bonkers!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But seriously I've been posting in the thread at GTP and the Sony boards. That's wher all the major discussion is. Still, it aint over til the fat lady sings

source gamersutra:
In September of 2004, Immersion Corporation was awarded damages of approximately 90 million dollars in a lawsuit against Sony, who Immersion said made illegal use of its technologies. Immersion, which manufactures force-feedback and so-called “haptic” (engaging the user via the sense of touch) devices for a wide range of applications, is headed by Victor Viegas, who took some time to speak with Gamasutra about the lawsuit, and about Sony’s announcement that the PS3 would not contain rumble technology.

As far as the ongoing litigation is concerned, Viegas is confident that the end result will be in his company’s favor.

“We’ve already won,” he said. “In September the jury was unanimous in its defense of our actions.”

In addition to the monetary damages awarded, Viegas said the other outcome of the 2004 verdict was an injunction that, if applied, would prohibit Sony from any production, manufacture, or sale of the related technologies in the United States. It is this injunction that Sony is currently attempting to appeal.

“They’ve taken aggressive positions with the use of patents to try to invalidate our claims, and have argued that Immersion committed fraud,” Viegas said. “There’s been quite a lot of legal activity and a lot of unnecessary energy expended over this.”

Previous lawsuits in which immersion has played a part include a settlement with Microsoft (who was originally named as a defendant in the same suit Sony is currently fighting) and Electrosource, the company which produces the Pelican brand of third-party controllers. Both of these companies have settled with Immersion, but Viegas says he sees no current indicators that Sony will follow suit.

In addition to Immersion’s case against Sony itself, he says they have also filed a lawsuit against a Sony witness, who Viegas says appears to have been paid for testimony. As for Sony’s decision to not include haptic technology in their next-generation controllers, Viegas says he is skeptical of their proposed reasoning.

The company announced in a press release that the PS3 controller would lack vibration due to the possibility of it interfering with the controller’s new tilt sensors, which Viegas feels is unlikely.

“If what they’re saying is in fact the reason why [the controller will not have vibration], I’ve offered them numerous solutions to the problem,” Viegas said in an interview Tuesday. “I don’t believe it’s a very difficult problem to solve, and Immersion has experts that would be happy to solve that problem for them.”

The solutions offered by Immersion, however, would hinge upon Sony’s acceptance of the current litigation, and no word has been given as to Sony’s plans on the matter. Viegas says that Immersion “would have no qualms helping Sony with their problem, if indeed it is a problem,” but the company would have to cease its appeal against the current injunction.

Viegas is confident, however, that his company’s technology will be at home on video game systems in the future.

“We feel haptic or vibration technology is quite possible in a next gen system,” he said. “It can provide greater fidelity, better effects, and a more complete sense of immersion, using a wired or wireless controller.”

As far as Sony’s choice to remove vibration from their new console, he feels it goes against the ideas of improvement that are espoused by those entering the next-gen market.

“When you think about the investments they’re making in improving graphics and sound, these are all meant to try to immerse you or put you in the middle of gameplay,” Viegas said. “So to take vibration out of a driving game or a first person shooting game, I can’t imagine how people will be able to view that as an advancement in gaming.”

PlayStation 3: A "Step Backward?"



Viegas also said that the responses he’s found on websites and in blogs seem to imply that gamers agree Sony has taken “a step backward” in its development of gaming by its removal of vibration technology.

“From what I’ve read, people are not happy,” he said.

Within his own company it seems, people are not happy with Sony’s decision either.

“We had a lot of employees on the floor at E3, and many of them got to get their hands on the [Playstation 3] controller,” Viegas said. “They say it felt light, that it felt cheap and flimsy, and that it lacked weight or substance. Overall, they were disappointed.”

Apparently, Immersion employees were not the only ones upset at the lack of haptic response in Sony’s new console.

“I’ve spoken with a lot of developers, and apparently out of the early kits they were given to work with, at least a few of them contained vibration technology,” Viegas said. “When the announcement was made that the final product wouldn’t contain that technology, they were as shocked as everyone else.”

Holding over 600 patents, Immersion is certainly not going to go out of business due to the fracas over the Sony suit, but Viegas said he’s hopeful it can be resolved in a fashion that allows players to experience the depth of immersion haptic technology can offer to a next-gen system.

As for the rest of the next-gen consoles, Viegas said they have demonstrated their technology to Microsoft, and have no current plans to interact with Nintendo on its upcoming Wii console, nor do they have any plans to file future injunctions against Nintendo or any other company, yet.

“We have officially stated we have not performed full analysis on Nintendo’s product so are not in a position to comment on the technology they are using,” Viegas said, adding “we’ll take a look at those.”

In the meantime, Viegas said Immersion is hard at work on other haptic technologies that will be applied in a wide range of fields, from creating virtual environments for doctors and nurses to feedback units for automobiles and flat touchscreens. For Sony, however, the ball is in their court.

“We have solutions we have perfected and demonstrated to Sony, contingent on their acceptance of our terms,” Viegas said. “All we can do now is wait and see.”

*Oh and Sony is still appealing*

No ****ing WAY they decide they decide to let GT5 slip out without having this resolved first! They no that everything I've put into my custom FFB wheel will have all been in vein if they do

 

[Flo_Evans]

:lol

this is some serouis shit though.... I think our only hope is Kaz growing some balls and telling sony to pay to let him use FF or he walks.

 

[isamu]

I think our only hope is Kaz growing some balls and telling sony to pay to let him use FF or he walks.

He's gonna walk anyway.

Spoiler

but I've already said too much...

 

[op_ivy]

god this angers me to no end

 

[Ryudo]

DFP for the 360 would make all this mess go away ! Actually no scratch that idea.... no wait !

 

[isamu]

Source: Patent Arcade

Case Update: Immersion v. Sony Oral Argument


Posted by Ross Dannenberg


Tuesday, January 09, 2007.


The Federal Circuit heard oral arguments yesterday in the Immersion v. Sony appeal. As previously reported, the sole issue on appeal is Sony's allegation of misconduct by Immersion.

Sony's arguments at the hearing attempt to highlight its position that the errors of fact regarding a preexisting licensing agreement and prior art document "could have" changed the outcome of the trial had the errors been corrected, and Sony should thus be entitled to a new trial. Sony argued that it was never afforded a chance to determine whether the error was significant or not, because it never knew about a piece of "hidden" prior art. The court questioned the impact of any error on the ability of Sony to litigate the case fairly, and appears hesitant to second-guess the district court judge who witnessed the entire trial and made a judgment call based on information gathered over the course of time during the litigation.

Immersion countered that any error was immaterial and insignificant, implying that such error should not warrant a new trial. Immersion's counsel also pointed out how little significance the "hidden" prior art document played during trial (e.g., zero references to it by Sony's primary invalidity expert, zero references to it by Sony in closing arguments, etc.). The court questioned the basis for such a conclusion, because how could the hidden piece of prior art play a prominent role at trial when Sony didn't know about it?

While I personally found Sony's arguments to verge on a last ditch effort of a 5 year old whining to a parent "it's not fair," and Immersion's counsel came across a little overconfident (perhaps better prepared?), you never know how the court will rule.

It will likely be months before the court hands down its decision, but we may get lucky in the end

Hopefully my ultimate setup will be ready in time for the march release of F1'06. Not gonna buy a PS3 until then though

 

[Gek54]

Immersion busts sony's balls leaving GT5 with a limp wheel.

 

[isamu]

GTHD PAL HAS FFB!!!!!!!!!!

WORKS ON A US PS3!!!!!!!!

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2610551&postcount=27