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Opinion Hardware No, Series S/Lockhart Will NOT Hold Back Series X (From Technology POV). Here's Why.

Nikana

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That's what I've been saying. Besides boosting resolution and framerate, what else could they really do with the X1X that was like 4 times more powerful? Fact is if you buy a X1X and don't have a 4k tv, it'll practically look and play the same (besides the fps that is). With Series X it'll be the same thing if Lockhart becomes the base platform. It'll play the exact same games, just better.
Again...the reason that happened was because games are destined around features, not teraflops. The features are the same on both consoles. They pushed resolution because at that time it was the biggest benefit to use the power.

Even if the x1x had 8 TF instead of 6 you wouldn't of seen drastically different games if they were designed just for x1x because the features of the GPU and CPU can only do so much.

Games on XSX will not look drastically different if Lockhart didn't exist because it's designed around what the machine can do. The Lockhart can do everything Series X can but at lower fidelity.

Games are not designed in the way you are describing. Developers don't look at the hardware and say ok well this one has 10TF and the other has 12TF so I guess we can't do XXXX.
 
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I don't think going from 1440p to 720p will be enough to compensate a 300% gap in gpu performance. It would probably be around 540p. No way MS would allow games on their "next gen" console that'll look like a giant smudge on a tv screen.
With DLSS 2.0 in Control, 4K "Performance" mode uses 1080p base resolution. The 2080(XSX) is somewhere in between the 2070 Super and 2080 Super. Call it 52fps avg.

I just tested 2060 Super locked to 1005MHz using Afterburner custom curve profile, verified as just below RX 580 in Fire Strike and just above it in Time Spy(how Nvidia/Turing fare in 3DMark tests). In Control I used Max Settings, all RTX features enabled, 1080p DLSS 'Performance'(540p base resolution) and over a period of 10min it never dropped below 50fps. Average was probably around 60fps. This is same deal for native 4K to 1080p, or 4K DLSS 'Quality'(1440p base res) compared to 1080p 'Quality'(720p base res). DLSS 1080p 'Quality'(720p base) looks pretty fucking good on a 1080p TV. Only area of weakness I've seen is small text in gameplay. Once again, you're limited to a narrow constraint of 1440p/No AI upscaling to make Lockhart nonviable.

1080p/Native/4xMSAA:


1080p DLSS(720p Base):


1080p DLSS(540p base):


This looks far from smudge on a 55" 1080p TV. Not even bad on a 65" 4K TV. I'll get some pictures from both later on.
 

JerryinSoCal

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I'm not really worried about lockhart, at least it's tech is in the same family as the XSX, what's going to hold things back is the fact that they are going to insist on doing cross-gen games for 2 years.
 
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DaGwaphics

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I don't think going from 1440p to 720p will be enough to compensate a 300% gap in gpu performance. It would probably be around 540p. No way MS would allow games on their "next gen" console that'll look like a giant smudge on a tv screen.
Your assumptions are wrong. If you look at benchmarks for cards in the same series, you'll find that cards fall in nearly linear patterns when tracked across pixel fill and peak TF numbers (with settings matched). DF even showed several examples of this. Plus lockhart is rumored to have at least 1/3 of the raw performance of the XSX, while targeting 1/4 the resolution. If lockhart hit a troubled spot in a particular game, some settings could be goosed to cover the gap.

Also, if you're going to use the smaller number to calculate percentages (the 300% performance number), you'd need to figure in the fact that XSX would be pushing 400% more pixels.
 
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cyber69

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So teraflops no longer matter? :messenger_winking: Like many (developers included) have eluded, the biggest differentiator between current gen and next gen is the SSD (Specifically with design features to reduce CPU overhead and increase I/O).
 
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Neo_game

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Let's be clear, though. Just because you don't value high resolution and high frame rate doesn't mean that a substantial amount of gamers don't. By your own standard, games like Ratchet and Clank and GT7 are not ambitious because they are native 4K, and GT7 is 60fps when it should be 30fps.

Once again, you're conflating a canned tech demo with the approach that Xbox 1st-party and 3rd-party devs will take, when not even PS5 devs are taking this approach currently. This is your bias attempting to create a scenario where Lockhart isn't viable: 1440p no AI upscaling. Completely ignoring the support for DirectML AI resolution and texture upscaling, and VRS on the Xbox platform.
Resolution compromises the gfx and fps for sure. Whatever standard they set for the S version this time. PS5 and X will get the resolution boost and if possible fps, RT. Also if they are going to use some algorithim based resolution booster and pixels count sort of becomes irrelevant. Which is suppose to be the only difference between the consoles like the current 🤷‍♂️
 

smithg5

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So teraflops no longer matter? :messenger_winking: Like many (developers included) have eluded, the biggest differentiator between current gen and next gen is the SSD (Specifically with design features to reduce CPU overhead and increase I/O).
This is a hearty reduction of what people are saying about Lockhart.

Teraflops are indicative of performance, and performance can be used toward a more advanced scene or a higher resolution (spacial or temporal). You can distribute performance to either category. 4K requires four times the performance for the same scene in 1080p, or two times the performance for the same 30fps scene in 60fps. It stands to reason you can target different fidelity with the same scene on hardware with a fraction of the capability.

For some 1080p is enough. The PS5 games presentation in June was streamed at 1080p — was that enough for you to appreciate the graphical leap?
 

cyber69

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This is a hearty reduction of what people are saying about Lockhart.

Teraflops are indicative of performance, and performance can be used toward a more advanced scene or a higher resolution (spacial or temporal). You can distribute performance to either category. 4K requires four times the performance for the same scene in 1080p, or two times the performance for the same 30fps scene in 60fps. It stands to reason you can target different fidelity with the same scene on hardware with a fraction of the capability.

For some 1080p is enough. The PS5 games presentation in June was streamed at 1080p — was that enough for you to appreciate the graphical leap?
Talk about reaching....We are talking about scalability in terms of graphics/performance (which teraflops directly relate to). If you take away the teraflop difference between Series S and Series X. The similarities you're left with is the SSD and CPU. You don't need a wall of text to discuss a simple topic.

Also, the OP is correct. Which brings me back to my original point. Teraflops isn't what will define this generation. I'm not saying it isn't important, it just isn't as important as what Microsoft initially revealed it to be. A good portion of Sony and Microsoft's console build budget went towards the SSD.
 
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smithg5

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Talk about reaching....We are talking about scalability in terms of graphics/performance (which teraflops directly relate to). If you take away the teraflop difference between Series S and Series X. The similarities you're left with is the SSD and CPU. You don't need a wall of text to discuss a simple topic.

Also, the OP is correct. Which brings me back to my original point. Teraflops isn't what will define this generation. I'm not saying it isn't important, it just isn't as important as what Microsoft initially revealed it to be.
Reaching? I’m responding directly to your snark that “so teraflops no longer matter?”.
 
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Jul 29, 2013
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Resolution compromises the gfx and fps for sure. Whatever standard they set for the S version this time. PS5 and X will get the resolution boost and if possible fps, RT. Also if they are going to use some algorithim based resolution booster and pixels count sort of becomes irrelevant. Which is suppose to be the only difference between the consoles like the current 🤷‍♂️
Firstly, the idea that Lockhart is influencing PS5 game design, especially exclusives/console exclusives is ludicrous. I listed some examples in the post you responded to in addition to the ones from the other post: Ratchet and Clank, GT7, Godfall, Astro's Playroom, Demon Soul's, Kena, Little Devil Inside, Retrunal, and Stray...all Native 4K and PS5 exclusive or console exclusive that aren't on XSX or Lockhart. Even Horizon Forbidden West initially appears to be Native 4K, with an outside possibility it's using reconstruction. This is where your assertion completely falls apart. They are targeting this res(and 60fps frame rate in the case of GT7) of their own volition. Lockhart has nothing to do with it.

Secondly, DLSS resolutions in Control scale in the same manner that native res does they simply have a slight performance impact(10-15%) for the upscaling. The base resolution is still 1/4 res, so the dynamic is in tact. I've tested this in Control as shown in this thread. Also in Wolfenstein Youngblood using detailed benchmark for 2080 Super 4K DLSS 'Quality'(Mein Laben Settings, RT) = 69fps avg/50fps min VS 2060 Super 4TF 1080p DLSS 'Quality'(Mein Laben settings, RT) = 69fps avg, 45fps min. Same applies to non-DLSS games like TW3 where 2080 Super @ 4K has 72fps avg VS 2060 Super 4TF @ 1080p had 75fp avg.
 
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Metroiddarks

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Y'all remember this little gem? It came out in 2014 for PS4...but it also came out for the then-last gen systems of PS3 and 360.

The PS4 version was the lead platform, despite the game also having a last-gen version available, and prioritized the Nemesis system. This highly advanced AI system was impossible to implement on 360 and PS3....so it was simply outright removed altogether for those versions.

Here's a game, from a company much smaller than Microsoft, working with a game on two generations of hardware saying "'Ya know what? Why should we gimp the PS4 version for the 360 and PS3? We'll just remove that entire Nemesis game mechanic from the old versions instead. No need to hold back the next-gen version for the old consoles!"

So tell me, if a company the size of Monolith Productions was able to prioritize the then-leading next-gen system for game mechanics built solely for that system even when they KNEW the same version of the game on older systems would not be able to run those new game mechanics...why do some people think Microsoft will somehow NOT take this exact same approach if a game requires it? They have already mentioned that Halo Infinite (arguably their biggest upcoming 1st-party release) is using the Series X as the lead platform; you can bet that if the Series X version has game features the Series S is unable to run, they would much sooner just remove them from Series S version rather than punishing the Series X version from using them whatsoever.

Not to mention, with Microsoft's own capital and resources, this is something they could do much easier than Monolith Productions was able to do six years prior, and that's assuming the Series X and Series S versions are being developed by the same studios. If we look at MS's own prior track record with games like Forza Horizon 2, there's a strong chance different teams will handle versions between the two platforms.

Look, I still have my own reservations regarding Lockhart/Series S, but they left this realm of "it'll hold next-gen back!" a LONG time ago. There is literally no legitimate ground anymore for someone to hedge concern around Series S on that idea anymore, when we can look at games like SOM alone as well as the logical reality of how MS will prioritize software development (or already have). At this point, it comes off almost as concern-trolling.

If you want to talk about Lockhart/Series S in terms of it complicating production allocation between it and Series X, or possibly influencing pricing between the two models in an undesired way, those are fair game. Those are still areas of concern with Series S TBQH (and PS5 to a lesser extent with its dual SKUs). But this whole argument that Series X won't be exploited to its full potential due to the presence of Series S, is more or less a dead argument at this point. Too much evidence points to the contrary.
I don't think XSS will hold back XSX in therms of gameplay if the CPU and SSD are similar enough to its big brother, my concern in the beginning of this year was
because the rumours said the XSS will be noticeable inferior in those departments, we can talk about the resolution problem they probably will have later as any console
has enough power to say all its games will reach 4k 30fps doesn't matter what.

Regarding the case you bring I don't say is necessary a good example because in the end you are telling me they bring an inferior game in terms of gameplay, because
that feature (Nemesis) was the most important thing of that game for reviewers and users, so basically your damage one generation of your games for this.

In the case of Halo Infinite my worry is not XSS is Halo Infinite is Xbox one for CPU and HDD/SSD deltas, if you say is good to follow the approach of WB I disagree for a simple
reason as I don't think the graphics makes a game good which make it good is the mechanics so if you remove this from a game for me is a lot worse than a downgrade
in graphics.

If for someone is worth deliver an inferior version in gameplay for your current owner of a Xbox one in exchange of new gen then your marketing of not first party
exclusives become more technicality than a fact.

The engine are build to be scalable but are in constant work and they need to think if they want to follow the approach of LithTech engine or be less aggressive this is not
necessary bad, but even then is not like you can go crazy.

Imagine a situation where are using an spaceship/warthog in Halo and you are traveling fighting against dozens or even hundred of other ships with a complex "AI" to a hight
speed so for this section they have 3 options:

1)Removed from current gen in order to focus your team in designed a balanced experience for the new gen.

2)Put you team or two of them making the same scene accordingly the specs of each gen, this
will be more expensive a time consuming and even the experience could be not the same (specially for the IA)

3) Do something in the middle (basically hold back the new gen)

And this kind of decision will happen a lot specially in a game like Halo, so say Xbox one will hold back is not an offense to the brand
is something always happens when you are making at software for multiple hardware with very different capabilities. If you think this is not true,
I am sure they are going to have the same people of 343 saying in a couple years when announce Halo 7:

"Now we can focus in get more juice from the Xbox series family"

Of course will happen and they are not lying, you need time to know a new hardware and dev a software which uses in a considerable
way and always the fact of dev for a very inferior hardware can affect your game, a simple case is the current games released in PC. Basically is
almost impossible to find a game which use a decent amount the high end CPU (use more of 4 cores to more of 4Ghz) and GPU (Mesh shaders in 2000 series).

The mention of Forza Horizon 2 I think is the worst example for a port to Xbox 360, that game in many parts looks even worse than FH1 in Xbox 360. When the
spec of the current consoles were announced the devs and users with a minimum of technical knowledge were surprised for basically one thing the amount
of ram but when the consoles born, its CPU already was bad something extremely necessary for things like the use of physics or IA, the HDD was
basically the same For this reason your graphics were affected harder for the old gen than you gameplay.

Also the money of Microsoft is not the money of Xbox, any company works like that, each department/section of company like Microsoft always
have a budget for spend is not like they can go with Microsoft and ask for more every time they want without give something in exchange, the
goal of the companies is make money not expend it because reasons.

I will give another example of probably a bigger game in budget, Cyberpunk 2077 will looks gorgeous and will have a lot of things to do and even then
will be hold back in gameplay and graphics for the current gen.


Sorry for the wall of text.
 
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Neo_game

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Firstly, the idea that Lockhart is influencing PS5 game design, especially exclusives/console exclusives is ludicrous. I listed some examples in the post you responded to in addition to the ones from the other post: Ratchet and Clank, GT7, Godfall, Astro's Playroom, Demon Soul's, Kena, Little Devil Inside, Retrunal, and Stray...all Native 4K and PS5 exclusive or console exclusive that aren't on XSX or Lockhart. Even Horizon Forbidden West initially appears to be Native 4K, with an outside possibility it's using reconstruction. This is where your assertion completely falls apart. They are targeting this res(and 60fps frame rate in the case of GT7) of their own volition. Lockhart has nothing to do with it.

Secondly, DLSS resolutions in Control scale in the same manner that native res does they simply have a slight performance impact(10-15%) for the upscaling. The base resolution is still 1/4 res, so the dynamic is in tact. I've tested this in Control as shown in this thread. Also in Wolfenstein Youngblood using detailed benchmark for 2080 Super 4K DLSS 'Quality'(Mein Laben Settings, RT) = 69fps avg/50fps min VS 2060 Super 4TF 1080p DLSS 'Quality'(Mein Laben settings, RT) = 69fps avg, 45fps min. Same applies to non-DLSS games like TW3 where 2080 Super @ 4K has 72fps avg VS 2060 Super 4TF @ 1080p had 75fp avg.
Where did I say that PS5 exclusives has anything to do with the Xbox S ?? I know RTX 2060S does the same as 2070S, 2080S and 2080ti. All they have to do it to scale the resolution accordingly. Personally for me and I think many gamers PS5 and X should target no more than 1440P and dev can have gfx mode for more detail and performance mode for 60fps. But due to S I think that will probably never happen. I also think Pro model is probably not going to happen in future as Microsoft has already decided to launch their both models and it is highly unlikely devs will discard the S version. So rather than having a successor to PS5 we are likely to get a gimped version like the S if it sells good. The console gamers are pretty much screwed because of the S model. 3 or 4 tier console in a gen like some people were suggesting we get upgraded console is pretty ridiculous.
 
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Where did I say that PS5 exclusives has anything to do with the Xbox S ?? I know RTX 2060S does the same as 2070S, 2080S and 2080ti. All they have to do it to scale the resolution accordingly. Personally for me and I think many gamers PS5 and X should target no more than 1440P and dev can have gfx mode for more detail and performance mode for 60fps. But due to S I think that will probably never happen. I also think Pro model is probably not going to happen in future as Microsoft has already decided to launch their both models and it is highly unlikely devs will discard the S version. So rather than having a successor to PS5 we are likely to get a gimped version like the S if it sells good. The console gamers are pretty much screwed because of the S model. 3 or 4 tier console in a gen like some people were suggesting we get upgraded console is pretty ridiculous.
What the hell is all this babbling about?

Lockhart isn't forcing all those PS5 exclusives and console exclusives to be native 4K. Lockhart isn't preventing Sony from releasing a PS5 Pro. Lockhart is the 1/4 res version of the XSX with the same CPU and SSD. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

anothertech

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I mean, it's basically been said but look at it this way.

The resources and time a Dev team must use to strip away features or entire gameplay elements as in the OP example could have been used to increase the quality of the original. This applies even if another team entirely is dedicated to the task.

In that way it still holds back potential of the original.
 
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X-Fighter

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I mean, it's basically been said but look at it this way.

The resources and time a Dev team must use to strip away features or entire gameplay elements as in the OP example could have been used to increase the quality of the original. This applies even if another team entirely is dedicated to the task.

In that way it still holds back potential of the original.
They're already doing this for PC.
 

MrMiyagi

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What the hell is all this babbling about?

Lockhart isn't forcing all those PS5 exclusives and console exclusives to be native 4K. Lockhart isn't preventing Sony from releasing a PS5 Pro. Lockhart is the 1/4 res version of the XSX with the same CPU and SSD. Nothing more, nothing less.
Neo_Game is right. If both Lockhart and Series X would target the exact same fps and resolution, Lockhart would seriously hamper the ambitions of Series X games. Devs can't do anything with all those 12Tflops besides bumping resolution and framerate, and people with a 1080tv won't even be able to tell the difference between the 2 consoles.

When you have 2 consoles with such a gap in performance and price, surely one has to suffer over the other. Either we'll be seeing games in unacceptable framerates and resolution on Lockhart, or developers will be optimizing for Lockhart and games will be a smooth 30fps and 1080p on there (which most people are fine with). If its the later, Series X will be just like the XoneX. A niche product meant for people who want to get the best out of their new 4k tv. Keep in mind that the Switch is selling like hotcake, it has games that run in 540p and people are fine with it. Resolution and 60fps simply isn't that big a deal for the average consumer.

Also what do you think looks more impressive, Minecraft in 1080p with full blown Path Tracing or Minecraft in 4k? If Rockstar wants to make a GTA6 with Path Tracing and 1080p on Series X, it would look truly next gen and they should be allowed to do that. But that's not going to be possible if they have to make it run on Lockhart too.
 
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danielJackson

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Then explain how these scenarios wont happen, and how to avoid them

systems:
PC (lets forgot it for now)
series S 4TFLops
series X 12 Tflops

resolutions 1080p to 4k

game 1:
devs want to make the most beautiful and detailed 1080p ever made, using whole 12Tflops of series x

does it run on 320x240 resolution on series s? Or devs waste time to make it super low detail to work?


game 2:

devs want to make 1440-1800p game that runs 120fps and uses all 12 tflops that have mechanics that rely on fast FPS

does it run 720p / 30fps on series s? but how about those mechanics that are built around high FPS, make it run 240p?


Basically unless devs make the game for 4k in mind, their options are limited by 3x slower system.

Because they cant scale everything down under certain baseline (let's assume it is 1080p), and they have to do it if they target lower res on the faster machine.

Easiest route is to target 4k and just use 1080p on slow one, but it narrows their options.

Because budgets arent unlimited so either both versions are worse or one (SeS) is super bad and one is worse than it should (SeX)


while on one system ecosystem, PS5, devs can make hyper super ultra mega detailed 720p if they want to, or 4k 120fps game, or anything between, because no need to think how it scales on slow system.
 
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Lort

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Then explain how these scenarios wont happen, and how to avoid them

systems:
PC (lets forgot it for now)
series S 4TFLops
series X 12 Tflops

resolutions 1080p to 4k

game 1:
devs want to make the most beautiful and detailed 1080p ever made, using whole 12Tflops of series x

does it run on 320x240 resolution on series s? Or devs waste time to make it super low detail to work?


game 2:

devs want to make 1440-1800p game that runs 120fps and uses all 12 tflops that have mechanics that rely on fast FPS

does it run 720p / 30fps on series s? but how about those mechanics that are built around high FPS, make it run 240p?


Basically unless devs make the game for 4k in mind, their options are limited by 3x slower system.

Because they cant scale everything down under certain baseline (let's assume it is 1080p), and they have to do it if they target lower res on the faster machine.

Easiest route is to target 4k and just use 1080p on slow one, but it narrows their options.

Because budgets arent unlimited so either both versions are worse or one (SeS) is super bad and one is worse than it should (SeX)


while on one system ecosystem, PS5, devs can make hyper super ultra mega detailed 720p if they want to, or 4k 120fps game, or anything between, because no need to think how it scales on slow system.
720p 30 fps ps5 games confirmed!
 

MrMiyagi

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Let's be clear, though. Just because you don't value high resolution and high frame rate doesn't mean that a substantial amount of gamers don't. By your own standard, games like Ratchet and Clank and GT7 are not ambitious because they are native 4K, and GT7 is 60fps when it should be 30fps.

Once again, you're conflating a canned tech demo with the approach that Xbox 1st-party and 3rd-party devs will take, when not even PS5 devs are taking this approach currently. This is your bias attempting to create a scenario where Lockhart isn't viable: 1440p no AI upscaling. Completely ignoring the support for DirectML AI resolution and texture upscaling, and VRS on the Xbox platform.
Ratchet & Clank and GT7 aren't visually ambitious games. GT7 practically looks like GT Sports and cartoony platformers typically aren't pushing next gen boundaries either (that dimension jumping did look pretty awesome, though). We will be seeing next gen console pushed to its limits when we get a new ND game, GOW, GTA6 etc. Maybe those games will look best in 4k and 30fps but its far more likely that using things like Path Tracing will get much better visual results out of these consoles than just 4k, even if they have to go with 30fps/1080p to do so.
 
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MrMiyagi

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720p 30 fps ps5 games confirmed!
Didn't Minecraft with Path Tracing run at 30fps/1080p on Series X? If we want to see things like Path Tracing in full blown AAA games, we could absolutely see 1080p (or even 720p) ps5 games using DLSS just to hit a solid 30fps, and it will look amazing. Check this out:
 

SatansReverence

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game 1:
devs want to make the most beautiful and detailed 1080p ever made, using whole 12Tflops of series x
This literally isn't going to happen outside of XSX specific tech demos (i.epath traces minecraft)

game 2:

devs want to make 1440-1800p game that runs 120fps and uses all 12 tflops that have mechanics that rely on fast FPS

does it run 720p / 30fps on series s? but how about those mechanics that are built around high FPS, make it run 240p?
No, it'll run at 900p/1080p at the same 120fps.

The Series S concept really is not difficult to grasp.

It isn't replacing the One X, it's replacing the One S.

It's target resolution is going to be 1/4 that of the XSX, the fact that it has ~1/3 the compute power makes it clear that it'll handle that task easily. Throw in some lower res textures and slower lod models due to them being less meaningful at the lower resolution to save Ram usage and bam, you have a budget 1080p console that is still going to be push all the same next gen effects.
 

MrMiyagi

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This literally isn't going to happen outside of XSX specific tech demos (i.epath traces minecraft)



No, it'll run at 900p/1080p at the same 120fps.

The Series S concept really is not difficult to grasp.

It isn't replacing the One X, it's replacing the One S.

It's target resolution is going to be 1/4 that of the XSX, the fact that it has ~1/3 the compute power makes it clear that it'll handle that task easily. Throw in some lower res textures and slower lod models due to them being less meaningful at the lower resolution to save Ram usage and bam, you have a budget 1080p console that is still going to be push all the same next gen effects.
So you're saying Series S will be MS's main next gen console, just like the Xbox One S is now? I think you're right but isn't that kinda depressing lol? What if a developer does want to make a full blown Path Tracing game for Series X while targeting 30fps/1080p (even with DLLS enabled)?
 
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SatansReverence

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So you're saying Series S will be MS's main next gen console, just like the Xbox One S is now?
No, not at all.

What I did point out, is that xbox eco systems next gen games will not be held back by lockhart at all. The XSX target, and expected by users resolution is 3840x2180. Games made for it will seamlessly downscale almost entirely through resolution, texture size and model LoDs to the Series S' 1080p target resolution.
 
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MrMiyagi

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No, not at all.

What I did point out, is that xbox eco systems next gen games will not be held back by lockhart at all. The XSX target, and expected by users resolution is 3840x2180. Games made for it will seamlessly downscale almost entirely through resolution, texture size and model LoDs to the Series S' 1080p target resolution.
Ok, but like I said, what if a developer wants to push maximum visuals on Series X and it'll end up running in 30fps/1080p? Some might think its absurd that we would see that but that's just because we haven't really seen next gen games yet and people like the idea of 4k/60fps. However, the truth is that when people actually see those games, people won't care about 4k and 60fps. What people are expecting from these next gen consoles isn't just 4k, they want to be wowed by experiences and immersion not possible on current gen. They aren't going to pixel count, they will simply judge the games with their own eyes.

Imo something like Path Tracing would be a true game changer. Its instantly noticeable and completely changes the look and feel of a game. Do you think if people would see something like Uncharted 5 using it, they aren't going to be blown away just because its in 1080p? Personally I think if Sony announced TLOU2 with full path tracing as a free upgrade on ps5, it's going to be the most impressive thing we'll see in a while, even if it is running in 1080p. Its something that developers need to figure out and see what yields the best visual results. But that's not going to be possible if they are shackled to just running Lockhart games at a higher resolution and framerate.
 
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I just realized something;
1. There is not even an official announcement that Lockhart exists.
2. Even if it exists, no one actually know for sure what is its hardware.

So threads like these are just running around in circles. Most people can't even agree what their suspected Lockhart specs to be, so how is anyone suppose to make an informed decision on if it can or can't hold back next gen?

I think I will stay away from threads like these from now on, until we actually get something concrete about Lockhart. We might as well be arguing about how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.
 
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smithg5

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game 1:
devs want to make the most beautiful and detailed 1080p ever made, using whole 12Tflops of series x

does it run on 320x240 resolution on series s? Or devs waste time to make it super low detail to work?
Your math is way off.

1/4 the pixels of 1080p is 540p, not 320x240 which is literally 1/27th the pixels of 1080p.

960x540 is not an amazing resolution but neither is 1080p on a 12 TFLOPs console. That said you might actually see something like this combined with DirectML based upscaling.

game 2:

devs want to make 1440-1800p game that runs 120fps and uses all 12 tflops that have mechanics that rely on fast FPS

does it run 720p / 30fps on series s? but how about those mechanics that are built around high FPS, make it run 240p?
Again, you’re math is wrong here. 720p is 1/4th the resolution of 1440p, so it doesn’t need to be 30fps. 720p120 would be 1/4th the pixels per second of 1440p120.

You seem to not understand that the number of horizontal pixels doesn’t need to be 1/4th the number, just 1/2. The image scales in both dimensions,

Example:

2560 x 1440 = 3.68 million pixels
1280 x 720 = 0.92 million pixels

0.92 x 4 = 3.68
 
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MrMiyagi

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I just realized something;
1. There is not even an official announcement that Lockhart exists.
2. Even if it exists, no one actually know for sure what is its hardware.

So threads like these are just running around in circles. Most people can't even agree what their suspected Lockhart specs to be, so how is anyone suppose to make an informed decision on if it can or can't hold back next gen?

I think I will stay away from threads like these from now on, until we actually get something concrete about Lockhart. We might as well be arguing about how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.
You're absolutely right. I'm still hoping Lockhart will be more like the ps5 digital only version and that MS isn't seriously going to release a 4Tflops next gen console.

We will see soon enough at the MS July event where they'll be showing their exclusives - that don't just have to run on Lockhart - but on Xbox One and low-end pc's too. I just don't see that working out great if they plan to get people excited about next gen. But in the grand scheme of things, it does make more sense for MS to focus on building their GP subscribers than to go toe-to-toe with Sony again.
 
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Nikana

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I mean, it's basically been said but look at it this way.

The resources and time a Dev team must use to strip away features or entire gameplay elements as in the OP example could have been used to increase the quality of the original. This applies even if another team entirely is dedicated to the task.

In that way it still holds back potential of the original.
By this logic ps5 holds back development of third party games.
 

Gavin Stevens

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DLSS fascinates me... My brain, as somebody used to working with art, tells me that more pixels is better. Of course that's always true, because more original data in means more data out.

But god damn, these DLSS examples are utterly insane. You can provide a 1080p source image and for a tiny fraction of the cost present a 4k image that's barely even different, and in some cases even better. Like, why would you even want to use anything BUT this...?

Utterly incredible, and I love seeing this sort of thing. Totally the way forward.
 
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EXXo

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DLSS fascinates me... My brain, as somebody used to working with art, tells me that more pixels is better. Of course that's always true, because more original data in means more data out.

But god damn, these DLSS examples are utterly insane. You can provide a 1080p source image and for a tiny fraction of the cost present a 4k image that's barely even different, and in some cases even better. Like, why would you even want to use anything BUT this...?

Utterly incredible, and I love seeing this sort of thing. Totally the way forward.
I was always amazed with DLSS 2.0 after trying Minecraft, increased my performance on RTX Minecraft by ALOT and it looked great still!

Will DLSS be on Xbox Series X? If so its 100% a gamechanger
 

Gavin Stevens

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I was always amazed with DLSS 2.0 after trying Minecraft, increased my performance on RTX Minecraft by ALOT and it looked great still!

Will DLSS be on Xbox Series X? If so its 100% a gamechanger
Series X will be able to do it yeah, just not the same "thing" as DLSS is an nvidia thing and xbox will use DirectML/MLSS. PS5 I believe will likely have it... Maybe. But it hasn't explicitly been said as such, so its still possible it wont. But I would be surprised if it doesn't.

It really is a fantastic technology and I can't wait to see what they do with it. The push for 4k has been an utterly stupid one, and for me personally I'm more than happy with 1440p anyway as a max output. Its a substantial upgrade over 1080p, but still allows a lot more resources to be used elsewhere. The 4k push is moronic, so anything that negates that gets a pass in my book. CB rendering is... ok... But its final result is really ugly at times and it also produces an awful lot of artifacting when moving.
 
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lol this is still a debate? Come on guys...
Of course there is a debate. We are talking about hardware that may or may not exist, and with its internals being a complete mystery. We might as well be arguing about religion, it would be equally fruitless.
 
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Inuteu

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consoles are already are doing it for years

weaker consoles will do it even more
 

smithg5

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The push for 4k has been an utterly stupid one, and for me personally I'm more than happy with 1440p anyway as a max output. Its a substantial upgrade over 1080p, but still allows a lot more resources to be used elsewhere. The 4k push is moronic, so anything that negates that gets a pass in my book.
Gavin Stevens for President!
 
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MrMiyagi

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Of course there is a debate. We are talking about hardware that may or may not exist, and with its internals being a complete mystery. We might as well be arguing about religion, it would be equally fruitless.
We aren't debating complete fiction though. Typically when specs get leaked they aren't far from the truth. Also, the developer the OP mentions is already working on a game that supports Lockhart mode in the devkit. As a marketing guy there are also a lot of things that just don't add up to me on how they are promoting the Series X. I mean if its Phil Spencer's job not to get anyone excited about next gen and Series X, he sure is doing one helluva job.

First they announce and show the console at the freakin' game awards. Then they say "here's our amazing 12Tflops console but it won't have any exclusives for the first 2 years..." Then I read Phil saying something like "It doesn't matter which Xbox console you buy as long as you're playing on GP" And in a Gamelab interview the interviewer ask him something like "What kind of new possibilities from Series X are you most excited about that wouldn't be possible on current gen". He could have literally said anything, like amazing rich worlds, ray tracing or whatever. But no, he goes and says this...

"I think we're at a point now -- with immersion, with the tools we have and the compute capability -- that the deltas will be smaller from a visual impact, or that feature X was never possible before and now it is. And that might sound depressing to some, but what I would say is the advantage side of what I'm seeing now is really the immersive nature of the content that's getting created."

Spencer said that the benefits will be felt most clearly in the mitigation of long load times and low or inconsistent frame rates that he believes hurt player immersion. "


Maybe that's just MS being brutally honest, but that's still no way to market a next gen console.
 
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We aren't debating complete fiction though. Typically when specs get leaked they aren't far from the truth. Also, the developer the OP mentions is already working on a game that supports Lockhart mode in the devkit. As a marketing guy there are also a lot of things that just don't add up to me on how they are promoting the Series X. I mean if its Phil Spencer's job not to get anyone excited about next gen and Series X, he sure is doing one helluva job.

He's said things like "It doesn't matter which Xbox console you buy as long as you're playing on GP" And in a Gamelab interview the interviewer ask him something like "What kind of new possibilities from Series X are you most excited about that wouldn't be possible on current gen". He could have literally said anything, like amazing rich worlds, ray tracing or whatever. But no, he goes and says this...

"I think we're at a point now -- with immersion, with the tools we have and the compute capability -- that the deltas will be smaller from a visual impact, or that feature X was never possible before and now it is. And that might sound depressing to some, but what I would say is the advantage side of what I'm seeing now is really the immersive nature of the content that's getting created."

Spencer said that the benefits will be felt most clearly in the mitigation of long load times and low or inconsistent frame rates that he believes hurt player immersion. "


Maybe that's Phil being brutally honest, but that's still no way to market q next gen console.
All that you posted could be about Xbox 1S and cross gen titles. Still nothing on Lockhart.

And even Xbox diehards know that cross gen games hold next gen back.

Lockhart's details are literally rumor. We are not even sure if it would launch. Yes, there are enough evidence that something called the Lockhart existed at some point, as it showed up in some code. But that is as far as the facts on the ground goes.

The reason we could never agree on anything concerning Lockhart "holding back next gen" or not, is because we don't even know if it would be weaker than the PS5. Not factually anyway. And since we know so little, we talk past each other.
 

MrMiyagi

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Again...the reason that happened was because games are destined around features, not teraflops. The features are the same on both consoles. They pushed resolution because at that time it was the biggest benefit to use the power.

Even if the x1x had 8 TF instead of 6 you wouldn't of seen drastically different games if they were designed just for x1x because the features of the GPU and CPU can only do so much.

Games on XSX will not look drastically different if Lockhart didn't exist because it's designed around what the machine can do. The Lockhart can do everything Series X can but at lower fidelity.

Games are not designed in the way you are describing. Developers don't look at the hardware and say ok well this one has 10TF and the other has 12TF so I guess we can't do XXXX.
I dunno man. Series X is being pushed to its limits at 30fps/1080p when running Minecraft with Path Tracing. Do you think that would run on Lockhart?

In any case, this developer is telling us a completely different story.

One of the first things that you have to address when developing a game is, what is your intended target platform? If the answer to that question is "multiple", you are effectively locking yourself in to compromising certain aspects of the game to ensure that it runs well on all of them. It's no good having a game that runs well on PS3 but chugs on Xbox 360, so you have to look at the overall balance of the hardware. As a developer, you cannot be driven by the most powerful console, but rather the high middle ground that allows your game to shine and perform across multiple machines.
Yes, parity matters and we do design around it.


 

Lort

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I dunno man. Series X is being pushed to its limits at 30fps/1080p when running Minecraft with Path Tracing. Do you think that would run on Lockhart?

In any case, this developer is telling us a completely different story.

One of the first things that you have to address when developing a game is, what is your intended target platform? If the answer to that question is "multiple", you are effectively locking yourself in to compromising certain aspects of the game to ensure that it runs well on all of them. It's no good having a game that runs well on PS3 but chugs on Xbox 360, so you have to look at the overall balance of the hardware. As a developer, you cannot be driven by the most powerful console, but rather the high middle ground that allows your game to shine and perform across multiple machines.
Yes, parity matters and we do design around it.


Yes it will run on lockart at a bit below 720p.

So you can stop posting now.
 

DaGwaphics

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Neo_Game is right. If both Lockhart and Series X would target the exact same fps and resolution, Lockhart would seriously hamper the ambitions of Series X games. Devs can't do anything with all those 12Tflops besides bumping resolution and framerate, and people with a 1080tv won't even be able to tell the difference between the 2 consoles.

When you have 2 consoles with such a gap in performance and price, surely one has to suffer over the other. Either we'll be seeing games in unacceptable framerates and resolution on Lockhart, or developers will be optimizing for Lockhart and games will be a smooth 30fps and 1080p on there (which most people are fine with). If its the later, Series X will be just like the XoneX. A niche product meant for people who want to get the best out of their new 4k tv. Keep in mind that the Switch is selling like hotcake, it has games that run in 540p and people are fine with it. Resolution and 60fps simply isn't that big a deal for the average consumer.

Also what do you think looks more impressive, Minecraft in 1080p with full blown Path Tracing or Minecraft in 4k? If Rockstar wants to make a GTA6 with Path Tracing and 1080p on Series X, it would look truly next gen and they should be allowed to do that. But that's not going to be possible if they have to make it run on Lockhart too.
I think we can rule out AAA titles at typical scale with 100% path traced lighting from the discussion. Neither of the flagship boxes appears to be prepared for that. Maybe some indie games or games with limited scope (maybe something that takes place in smallish indoor environment).

This whole imaginary position of games only running on one box correctly and being limited on the other box is just that, imaginary. That only plays out if the hardware isn't scaled properly to the setting/resolution target. If lockhart is underpowered/underspecked and can't hit the target it needs to hit, it will not be viable and will be a failure, simple as that. Not something MS can hide, the proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
 

Jon Neu

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I dunno man. Series X is being pushed to its limits at 30fps/1080p when running Minecraft with Path Tracing. Do you think that would run on Lockhart?

In any case, this developer is telling us a completely different story.

One of the first things that you have to address when developing a game is, what is your intended target platform? If the answer to that question is "multiple", you are effectively locking yourself in to compromising certain aspects of the game to ensure that it runs well on all of them. It's no good having a game that runs well on PS3 but chugs on Xbox 360, so you have to look at the overall balance of the hardware. As a developer, you cannot be driven by the most powerful console, but rather the high middle ground that allows your game to shine and perform across multiple machines.
Yes, parity matters and we do design around it.


That developer is talking about consoles with very different approach and architecture.

Lockhart will have the very same approach and architecture and be designed to be scalable. It's not the same at all.
 
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As a marketing guy
Rule of thumb: generally around these parts (thanks to past precedent), when referring to Phil Spencer this is almost never used in good connotation. It's also very disingenuous. He actually has done technical-related work too. This isn't hard to find out.

From Wikipedia:

"Spencer joined Microsoft in 1988 as an intern and has worked in a number of technical roles, leading the development of Microsoft's first CD-ROM-based titles (such as Encarta), development manager for Microsoft Money, and general manager of Microsoft's online and offline consumer productivity products including Microsoft Works and Microsoft Picture It! [4][5] "

Also you guys realize Mark Cerny was also effectively serving as a marketing person during Road to PS5, right? Even if he was discussing technical aspects of the system, he very selectively ignored highlighting any weaknesses or negatives to hardware design decisions they made.

The act of only selling you the good aspects of something and downplaying/omitting the downsides...is basically marketing.

there are also a lot of things that just don't add up to me on how they are promoting the Series X.
Try actually being specific. I'm certain if you were, we could tell how many of those "things" are genuine and how many are just fanciful conjecture.

I mean if its Phil Spencer's job not to get anyone excited about next gen and Series X, he sure is doing one helluva job.
This reads like a fanboy comment and ignores the fact that people by and large are WAY more interested in Series X than they were for Xbox One during this relative time frame period. Not just the Xbox community but also a large amount of the PlayStation and Nintendo communities as, gasp!, many of them are multi-platform owners and play on more than one device.

First they announce and show the console at the freakin' game awards.
You're absolutely reaching to try implying this as a negative. At least MS got a chance to actually reveal their system at a live gaming show. That'll probably be the last time it happens until the midgen refreshes. And FWIW the reception to that reveal is unanimously positive and impressive to say the least. Hardly recall a single account of people thinking it was a "bad" thing to do...you might just be the first.

Then they say "here's our amazing 12Tflops console but it won't have any exclusives for the first 2 years..."
This was a comment mentioned by Matt Booty during... E3 2019. Meaning the two-year period covers up to holiday 2021, or the 1st year of next-gen.

'Ya know, the same period that's usually always filled with cross-gen games anyway, and where 1st party hardly ever does anything that can be considered a genuine game design paradigm shift (i.e just last-gen games with much prettier graphics and usually using some of the new hardware features as gimmicks).

Then I read Phil saying something like "It doesn't matter which Xbox console you buy as long as you're playing on GP"
And this is bad how? You realize Sony is starting to shift to a similar model too, right? And bringing more of their games to PC at that. I swear there's this very interesting response from some people where if Sony announces or basically reveals they're doing the EXACT same thing Microsoft does, suddenly that thing is good for the industry and is showered with praise.

It reeks of strong bias favoritism and comes off like partisan politics.

And in a Gamelab interview the interviewer ask him something like "What kind of new possibilities from Series X are you most excited about that wouldn't be possible on current gen". He could have literally said anything, like amazing rich worlds, ray tracing or whatever. But no, he goes and says this...

"I think we're at a point now -- with immersion, with the tools we have and the compute capability -- that the deltas will be smaller from a visual impact, or that feature X was never possible before and now it is. And that might sound depressing to some, but what I would say is the advantage side of what I'm seeing now is really the immersive nature of the content that's getting created."

Spencer said that the benefits will be felt most clearly in the mitigation of long load times and low or inconsistent frame rates that he believes hurt player immersion. "
Oh so now next-gen just being prettier games is a good thing again? Again this is funny, because ever since Sony did the Road to PS5 presentation one thing I've observed is people hyping up how much SSDs will change game design, and yet (somewhat stupidly) enough every single example they bring up basically boils down to "prettier graphics".

Now that isn't me saying the SSDs won't have an impact on future game design, but at least try arguing for benefits that don't essentially mean "better graphics", which is what 90% of people who argue for benefit of SSDs to next-gen (usually from the perspective of Sony's SSD I/O) routinely do. But here, you are creating another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position for MS because just a few paragraphs earlier you went on about how much of a "marketing guy" (as a deregotive) Phil Spencer supposedly is. Yet here in the quote you grab, he's being rather non-"marketing guy" like and honest about the aspect of visual diminishing returns...but oh no. NOW he's killing hype for next-gen because he isn't trying to sell you a pitch strong enough even if that'd mean embellishing on a few things.

Next thing you know he does exactly what you said he should've done and you'd probably just find another thing to criticize him on. Like RT for example; never mind they have already shown the stuff you said he should've mentioned here (regardless if they're in-engine or not Hellblade 2 and Project: Mara still have the best facial animations/details and RT of any next-gen demonstration so far, between both consoles), I'm sure if he just went on talking about ray-tracing again the probability's very high you'd just focus on him mentioning prettier graphics again because "he'd know" them "using Series S as the base cuts back the gameplay design scope on Series X so it's just a resolution box" (placed those in quotes because that's your prevailing theory and not something I'd come within ten feet of touching as my own xD).

Maybe that's just MS being brutally honest, but that's still no way to market a next gen console.
I love how you ignore all the other marketing they've done which has gone over fantastically to cherry-pick this single non-issue of a quote from Spencer to attempt painting their entire next-gen marketing as ineffective.

Neo_Game is right. If both Lockhart and Series X would target the exact same fps and resolution, Lockhart would seriously hamper the ambitions of Series X games. Devs can't do anything with all those 12Tflops besides bumping resolution and framerate, and people with a 1080tv won't even be able to tell the difference between the 2 consoles.

When you have 2 consoles with such a gap in performance and price, surely one has to suffer over the other. Either we'll be seeing games in unacceptable framerates and resolution on Lockhart, or developers will be optimizing for Lockhart and games will be a smooth 30fps and 1080p on there (which most people are fine with). If its the later, Series X will be just like the XoneX. A niche product meant for people who want to get the best out of their new 4k tv. Keep in mind that the Switch is selling like hotcake, it has games that run in 540p and people are fine with it. Resolution and 60fps simply isn't that big a deal for the average consumer.

Also what do you think looks more impressive, Minecraft in 1080p with full blown Path Tracing or Minecraft in 4k? If Rockstar wants to make a GTA6 with Path Tracing and 1080p on Series X, it would look truly next gen and they should be allowed to do that. But that's not going to be possible if they have to make it run on Lockhart too.
I truly fear for your mental sanity after July 23rd destroys all of these points of concern for you. More curious if you'll just accept being wrong or if a new goalpost gets set up.

Exciting times ahead!
 
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Nikana

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I dunno man. Series X is being pushed to its limits at 30fps/1080p when running Minecraft with Path Tracing. Do you think that would run on Lockhart?

In any case, this developer is telling us a completely different story.

One of the first things that you have to address when developing a game is, what is your intended target platform? If the answer to that question is "multiple", you are effectively locking yourself in to compromising certain aspects of the game to ensure that it runs well on all of them. It's no good having a game that runs well on PS3 but chugs on Xbox 360, so you have to look at the overall balance of the hardware. As a developer, you cannot be driven by the most powerful console, but rather the high middle ground that allows your game to shine and perform across multiple machines.
Yes, parity matters and we do design around it.


Minecraft is running a completely Ray traced image. It's the exception not the most common. And yes it could run on Lockhart just at a lower resolution.

Your example given is for two different consoles with wildy different architectures. That's lot the same as two consoles with the same internals architecture wise.

But also nobody is denying it's going to take more optimization. Having a Series S and X console will take devs more time but as they share the same GPU family, same CPU and SSD, there's a lot less work required than developing on two different platforms.
 

VincentMatts

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Its kind of confusing to me how its still being considered a secret even tho the whole world pretty much knows about it. Whats the point of that?

They already announced the XSX and didnt say a price, whats stopping them from doing the same with lockhart.

Just so weird. Its almost as if they are still considering not releasing it.
 
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MrMiyagi

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I think we can rule out AAA titles at typical scale with 100% path traced lighting from the discussion. Neither of the flagship boxes appears to be prepared for that. Maybe some indie games or games with limited scope (maybe something that takes place in smallish indoor environment).

This whole imaginary position of games only running on one box correctly and being limited on the other box is just that, imaginary. That only plays out if the hardware isn't scaled properly to the setting/resolution target. If lockhart is underpowered/underspecked and can't hit the target it needs to hit, it will not be viable and will be a failure, simple as that. Not something MS can hide, the proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
I also think path tracing is a bridge too far for the next gen consoles. It sure as hell isn't happening at 4k/60fps, but 1080p/30fps with DLLS enabled, who knows? That should be something for developers to figure out.

Fun fact is that the Unreal 5 tech demo was only using about the same gpu resources as Fortnite. So there is some hope, but not if it also has to run on a 4Tflops Lockhart and they need to scale it down to 560p to get it running.
 

01011001

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I also think path tracing is a bridge too far for the next gen consoles. It sure as hell isn't happening at 4k/60fps, but 1080p/30fps with DLLS enabled, who knows? That should be something for developers to figure out.

Fun fact is that the Unreal 5 tech demo was only using about the same gpu resources as Fortnite. So there is some hope, but not if it also has to run on a 4Tflops Lockhart and they need to scale it down to 560p to get it running.

jesus fucking christ... why are people with no understanding of the subject matter feel the need to comment shit like this?

the UE5 demo's >>>GEOMETRY<<< used about the same amount of GPU resources as the >>>GEOMETRY<<< in Fortnite.

they are basically taking pride in the fact that their Nanite technology works really well for scaling geometry with resolution.
Fortnite renders triangles where there need to be none due to the resolution being too low to actually see them. Nanite scales the density of the geometry in real time, which saves a ton of resources
 
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DaGwaphics

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jesus fucking christ... why are people with no understanding of the subject matter feel the need to comment shit like this?

the UE5 demo's >>>GEOMETRY<<< used about the same amount of GPU resources as the >>>GEOMETRY<<< in Fortnite.

they are basically taking pride in the fact that their Nanite technology works really well for scaling geometry with resolution.
Fortnite renders triangles where there need to be none due to the resolution being too low to actually see them. Nanite scales the density of the geometry in real time, which saves a ton of resources
:messenger_grinning_sweat:

Nanite appears be a boon to scalability and not a hindrance. At least from the little information available publicly about it.
 
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