be sure to update us when you visit the concentration camps during your guided tour.
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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly
- Thread starter Chittagong
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be sure to update us when you visit the concentration camps during your guided tour.
I know it ain't a paradise and bad stuff happens, but ALL countries commit atrocities and it is just the mystery surrounding NK that makes me want to visit.
Gnome Scat
Member
Sounds like a surprisingly pleasant trip given that you stay within the guidelines they provide for you.
Comparing NK propaganda to the media we have access to outside of NK is a pretty huge false equivalence. It's pure nonsense really.
Silentium
Member
No, your opinion is actually just wrong. North Korea is probably the most oppressive state regime in the world today.
The UN investigated and gathered evidence from over 320 witnesses, victims and experts and found that the NK regime was responsible for:
and concluded that:
During the investigation:
While another
And another witness testified to:
The investigation heard testimony of:
We also know that
The head of the investigation, respected Australian former High Court Judge Michael Kirby said that the actions of North Korea have a "striking resemblance" to those committed by the Nazis.
If you travel to North Korea you are providing a lifeline (by providing hard foreign currency) to a murderous regime that cruelly oppresses its own people.
EDIT: Went back and read the OP again; If that was written by the Tourism Department of NK I wouldn't be surprised. Completely glosses over the reality of the country all in the name of experience. The OP is one of the most appalling white-washes I've read in a while.
terrisus
Member
"Can't believe Western Media, really wish we could get some reports from non-Western Media sources"
"We do have that."
"Yeah, and it pretty much echoes what has been said everywhere else."
"Yeah... Well... Sure it's not great, but every place isn't great. But North Korea has mystery"
So, what exactly was the point of the original post, then?
terrisus
Member
Thanks for a wonderful thread OP. I throughly enjoyed reading it
On a side note:
Sometimes I wish threads had a comment something nice or don't comment at all rule. Keep throwing stones guys, I'm sure your glass houses will be fine
Yeah, just think how interesting all the threads on gaming-side would be if people couldn't criticize something or say bad things about something or even question something, but only post universal praise about something. Big OTs would have positively dozens of posts. And plus, after all, most people here can't even make games. What a bunch of hypocrites we are.
Well, it would be one of the most unique touring experiences out there. Getting in there and photographing this weird ass propaganda city while you can would be an interesting experience imo. Who knows how long they can keep up the charade.
Well tbh if one thread had this rule you would be free to create another which didn't have this rule. I never stated this would be a universal rule to rule all threads or anything.
Jesus fucking Christ.Thanks for a wonderful thread OP. I throughly enjoyed reading it
On a side note:
Sometimes I wish threads had a comment something nice or don't comment at all rule. Keep throwing stones guys, I'm sure your glass houses will be fine
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I've been. It's easy to get into, just a background check and a tour group.
I'm not going to support a insanely oppressive government with my money (from tourism) just so I can get some unique photos. It's not like you can walk around wherever you want on the tour anyway.
This has to be repeated a thousand times. People living in the West can't begin to imagine just how ludicrously oppressive North Korea is - unless they happened to have gone to jail at some point, because that's the closest you get. The entire country is basically a prison. North Koreans, unless they're part of the elite, have no true agency. The state govern their entire lives. Here's just a small excerpt:
North Korea: Through the Looking Glass said:
Another commonly used example is the government-issued radio that is permanently tuned to the government broadcast and can't be turned off.
It's not about poverty - it's about control. Total control. The government decides where you live. It decides what you listen to and when. It decides what clothes you wear. And despite this complete, total control the OP can't believe that every part of his tour - which had him engaging with conspicuously upbeat and smiling people at any given time - could possibly have been orchestrated? Really? North Korea is perfectly fine with showing you some poverty because that leads to empathy. But they don't show you anything like the true horror. It's the Disney version: "Oh yes, we're poor, very poor, but we endure it all with a smile on our face because we are a brave people who work towards a bright future!" You don't get to see the forced laborers or the starving orphans. Just actors, or people who have been told to clean up and put on a brave face for the duration of your short visit. It's theater, nothing more than a refined version of a Potemkin village.
People like to make the ignorant claim that because of the NSA, the US is basically 1984 and I assume that's because they haven't actually read the book. North Korea is the true Orwellian nightmare come true: a gigantic mind control experiment where the government has such complete control that dissent is basically impossible and only a select few can even manage to escape. Thankfully, this control has begun to break up. More and more outside information finds its way into North Korea and the government's previously total control of knowledge about both the country itself and the outside world is cracking.
But if you decide to go there as a tourist, be aware that you are in fact supporting the regime to a much further extent than you believe. Why do you think North Korea arranges tours in the first place? Because it's one of very few ways they can get their hands on legitimate foreign currency. The OP seemed to think that the money he spent would somehow end up in the pockets of the people he payed, but that's just ludicrously naive. All of it goes to fund whatever the regime leadership wants to spend it on. Not one cent actually goes to the poor common people.
Thanks for that reply, some informative links that I will read through. At least you backed up your arguments.
The idea of visiting is very interesting, like going to see you own BioShock country out of this world. I wouldn't want to give a single euro even indirectly to a regime with gigantic concentration camps anymore than I'd have wanted to bankroll Holocaust or the Killing Fields.
The OP also reads remarkably like an actual state-sanctioned NK propaganda probably would. Maybe Kim likes games so they have a presence on GAF.
The OP also reads remarkably like an actual state-sanctioned NK propaganda probably would. Maybe Kim likes games so they have a presence on GAF.
Excellent post. I knew NK was fucked up, but it wasn't until I read 'Nothing To Envy' that it really sank in. I highly recommend it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_Envy
jediyoshi
Member
Wait all modern, civilized countries currently have forced labor camps with malnourished people working to death? What's all this hubaloo about about then!
Phat Michael
Banned
I'm pretty close to North Korea right now. Would love to visit. Find this stuff absolutely fascinating.
Excellent post. I knew NK was fucked up, but it wasn't until I read 'Nothing To Envy' that it really sank in. I highly recommend it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_Envy
Fantastic book, I also recommend
Mr. Giggles
Member
Interesting post OP. I still have my reservations about visiting but its cool to know that there is a way.
Although, if I may inquire, why did you refrain from listing the agency you used - you mentioned for the agency to avoid difficulties with the government - but surely they would benefit from the positive word of mouth?!
Edit:
Yup :3
Although, if I may inquire, why did you refrain from listing the agency you used - you mentioned for the agency to avoid difficulties with the government - but surely they would benefit from the positive word of mouth?!
Edit:
Yup :3
Damn straight.
Phat Michael
Banned
Probably so the angry protesters in here don't go mass effect 3 style on them and bake them cupcakes and try and change them?
Mr. Giggles
Member
I'm sorry. I don't understand the reference.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Thanks. The reason I didn't mention them is that the DPRK government is very fickle on who they work with and getting to do tours with them takes a lot of work. If they see that the tours result in critical discussion like the one we are having here they might conclude that this particular agency has not been a trustworthy partner to them. Also it could bring trouble to our guides, that they have 'failed' to fully convince me of the joys of Juche.
I know that's probably overly cautious but they don't really think in a way we'd see as rational.
In case you are interested, I can PM you the agency name.
EDIT: I am currently reading this book, it's a fascinating look into the kids of the elite in DPRK, and how weird the general world view is there:
Lets not put words in my mouth eh? I never said there was concentration camps. But it is well known that the terrorists we fight today were funded and armed by us way back when. I just said all have caused atrocities, which they have.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Thank you for the reply OP. No its ok, for the moment I'll rely on visitor feedback like yours.
LoveCake
Member
I would like to go & visit, i would also like to visit Chernobyl as well.
Not sure why people are having a issue though, saying tourists are giving money to prop up a regime, you could argue the same thing about many countries depending on your perspective & world outlook, China, South Africa & the USA spring to mind.
I'll check out the video the OP's tourist friend took later.
Not sure why people are having a issue though, saying tourists are giving money to prop up a regime, you could argue the same thing about many countries depending on your perspective & world outlook, China, South Africa & the USA spring to mind.
I'll check out the video the OP's tourist friend took later.
I'm curious why you personally think the countries you mentioned are comparable to North Korea.
I would suspect if a similar thread was made extolling the virtues, beauty and purity of a vacation to Nazi/Fascist state it would be locked before 5 posts. But yet this thread carries on. Especially with a OP that completely dances around any of the known facts/repression/atrocities that any traveler would be helping fund.
I guess in that sense the OP is quite genius really. He could whitewash a Nazi Germany.
I guess in that sense the OP is quite genius really. He could whitewash a Nazi Germany.
jediyoshi
Member
Hell, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with that interpretation. Otherwise you're somehow conflating the idea that shitty things having happened at some point in time can be conflated with shitty things currently happening, also regardless as to its extent.
BronsonLee
Member
I will admit, after hearing of Drew Scanlon's account of his trip intrigued me, but after watching A State Of Mind, a documentary on two teenage girls who devote their lives to the North Korean mass games, it's a fucking harrowing place. It's interesting, but oh good lord.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Opening up, reform, and investment has done well with other countries. No reason to think it wouldn't work with North Korea. Walling them off won't do anything positive at all.
It's a pretty cool thing to put on your brag list!
triplestation
Member
Seth rogen movie said nk puts on an act when you get there
Why is it something to brag about? I honestly don't get it.
vas_a_morir
Banned
What's the rule? You do not negotiate with terrorists. Unfortunately for NK, their leadership has a long history of state-sponsored terrorist attacks against South Korean civilians. For this reason, for at the least political reasons, there can be no full cooperation with NK as long as the current regime remains in power.
A rare chance to enter an Orwellian Socialist state with a luxurious playboy King at the top. Lots of danger involved, too, as they may detain and sentence you to a life of hard labor at any second and will not have to show cause for it. It's like surviving something really dangerous; an adventure. I think that's totally brag-worthy.
.....but at the same time you're discouraging change and giving money (the tours aren't cheap) to a regime that's insane.
Also, has a westerner EVER died in a labor camp in North Korea? How dangerous is it really to go on a tour in North Korea? I think the "idea" of it being dangerous is far from the reality.
Finally, going on a guided tour is about as unadventurous as it gets.
Chittagong
Gold Member
In my opinion it's pretty damn safe there, unless you do something outrageously stupid. If you think of the main tourist hazards, the chance of traffic accident is basically nil (no gas = no cars), petty crime against tourists doesn't exist (harsh penalties) and you won't get a STD (no alone-time with locals). But if you distribute religious / political materials, then you are in trouble.
The ethical concerns are real however. I personally did not view the low number of travellers annually (roughly 2,000 I think) contributing to any meaningful income to a regime with multibillion problems. Say an average trip brings KITC $500, that's $1M annually in revenue, costs excluded. It's more a moral concern on whether the act of paying itself is wrong.
IAmtheFMan
Member
As a westerner that's arrested in NK, you're basically a propaganda piece and political tool. You don't even really get sent to the severe concentration camps like Hoeryong, Kaechong or Yodok. Kenneth Bae, Matthew Todd Miller et al. were in *relatively* good condition over there.
That being said, don't sneak in a Bible or anything.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
It is intriguing, but I don't think I'll go and give N. Korea my tourism money. I know none of it is going to help the citizens so I feel like I'm just padding government officials' pockets. Fuck that.
Omega Kirby
Member
The Interview
Well, I'm thinking people like forbidden fruits. And people know that most not being able to visit NK or not have been there before, it's something that can be a great conversational starter. If you meet someone who has been to NK, you'd probably be surprised and wanting to ask them things about their trip and such.
If other people in this thread are like me, they like scary things. Weird, scary and/or difficult things are interesting. It's very normal for humans to be curious about things that they can't always reach and study as much as they want to.
Excellent post. I knew NK was fucked up, but it wasn't until I read 'Nothing To Envy' that it really sank in. I highly recommend it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_Envy
Nothing to Envy is such a good book. Really great read, and sad at the same time.
How so many people apparently even outside of NK can swallow that countries propaganda is amazing and depressing.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Look at the past 25 years of hard lined isolation and tell me what good any of it has done.
Nothing to Envy is one of the better NK books but still has some significant falsifications. One I remember is the book indicating that rice was unavailable in the city markets, which may have been true in certain situations at the time of publishing, but was not a specific "policy" so to speak, and definitely isn't the situation now.
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