Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
These rights don't negate each other.
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Norway Will Build a Fence at Its Arctic Border With Russia
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These rights don't negate each other.
Here is the path they were taking to get to Norway. When they arrive at Murmansk they buy a bike and ride the rest of the way to Norway through a border crossing region called Storskog. When they arrive some of them were sendt back to Russia who just dismissed them back to Norway again and so it repeated like they were pingpong balls. It's just a shitty situation all around and a horrible experience for the refugees.
Here is the Border between Russia-Norway (right-most area)
The county of Finnmark which is the upper northern part of Norway has a population of 75 000 people.
yanipheonu
Member
Is sovereignty worth human lives?
This is a really narrow view of sovereign borders. All they are is lines drawn on a map. Some people dispute them, or claim they don't exist. It's not preordained that borders are where they are, and they are not immutable or almighty.
And, well, there are hordes of people going from country to country, many fleeing war and adverse conditions.. Try and stop them. Sovereignty only matters as much as one's capability to enforce it. It's no right by any means.
Sometimes amnesty despite illegality may be the right choice.
What do you do with the immigrans? Ship all of them away? Put them in camps?
Walls will have minimal effect, and are as easy to bypass as a ladder.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Yes they do. Exercising sovereignty means controlling your borders. The fact is that Norway already relinquished sovereignty within the Schengen Area, but they're not about to do it for Russia.
And again, there's no human right to enter a different country that may not want you there.
TheGameshark
Member
It just got ten feet higher
Hehe I am Norwegian. Russia is probably the biggest threat to Norway's national security, even though that threat is extremely marginal. Norway is completely dependent on NATO as a safety deterrent to guarantee security of our border. Without NATO Russia could hypothetically just roll over us without even breaking a sweat.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Nothing wrong with that, my country is also dependent on NATO for security.
Not just a right but even an obligation as a Schengen country with an non-schengen outer border.
And it's not "syrian refugees". Some of them are. The biggest groups are from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Most of them being young men. Which doesn't mean they are worth less but it does harbor demographic danger and also I'm sick of this "But the poor syrian children" narrative, when every statistic/reallife experience/border lifestream shows a COMPLETELY different reality.
That said it's completely pointless arguring about this topic with someone who relativizes borders/sovereign countries by saying "b-but it's just lines on a map!".
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You're making little sense. Continuing to not have a fence would not be relinquishing sovereignty, they'd be reclaiming it, if at all, by building this fence.
Exercising sovereignty doesn't require closing off borders, having the option to do so is sovereignty already.
I mean actually reading the article it really seems to be a rather non issue the right can rally behind with big words.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Hang on, you really think they'd have more control if they didn't close the border? That makes no sense. I don't think we can see eye to eye on this, but if it discourages anyone it's a good move.
You're playing mental gymnastics with the term sovereignty, by its very definition it requires authority.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
No I said they would not have less control than they already have as you implied in your post.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Yes they would have less control. You're just trying to have your cake and eat it too. Again, sovereignty is about "supreme power or authority." Control over who enters your country by discouraging illegal migration objectively makes it easier to exercise that authority.
There's not really anything more I can say...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm not comparing the situations of fence and no fence and which would have more control.
You said they are not about to relinquish border control to Russia, but they were never about to give it up. If the status quo remained unchanged as in no fence were to be erected, their sovereignty would remain identical.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
No, if 5,500 migrants slipped through that way last year, this will be a bit of a discouragement to that happening again. You're acting like the fence has absolutely no use, while ignoring geography and the fact that migrants can't exactly carry a 12 foot ladder on their back.
Norway's border is close to a relatively populated Murmansk in Russia. It's also no real loss to close that border.
O.v.e.rlord
Banned
Dam good expaination. Learned something new.
KurtSloane
Banned
These "refugees", do they go home when the war is over?
How come they don't stay and fix their own country? Fight for what is theirs? There isn't enough resources, jobs or homes for all of Syria just to up and move into Europe. Single, young men should be there .... irony being that eventually the young men of some other nation will go and die in their stead to fix the problem.
If we take some, then why not all?
The rights of the poor and destitute within our own borders should be the priority, we have not been able to solve those problems and those numbers are small relatively compared to the number of refugees and economic migrants seeking to take advantage of the lifestyle afforded by the hard work of those that have had a hand in building and contributing to it.
What kind of slap in the face is it to the poor and homeless already here that we don't all jump up and fix things for them but do so for others from half the world away?
Its just an example of the hypocrisy of those that would have us just help everyone, just don't ask awkward questions or we will besmirch you with some name or label.
And they wonder why Trump ever got a platform, why brexit happened or why the far right is on the rise across Europe.
Also take into consideration that it's imperative that they go through the proper channels because Finnmark is not densely populated. It's actually the largest and least populated county of Norway (it's even larger than Denmark!). It got huge open areas which is easy to get lost in, and it will get extremely cold with unpredictable weather and generally harsh nature. When thousands of immigrants are coming in unchecked it can be extremely difficult to guarantee their wellbeing if they have no control over them. They have never been in such a situation before, so one must understand that it can be very trying when so many new people arrive in such a short period of time.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Brexit was more to do with the perception of EU workers taking all the jobs, not asylum seekers. Though there was a fair share of fearmongering relating to them, tbh
If anything discouraging people from making a long, life threatening journey after being sold false hopes of how great life automatically will be in Europe may well be the more humane thing to do. The northern wilderness seems like a harsh, harsh place to be in. The UN and the world should be doing as much as they can to keep Syrians safe round in the neighboring countries. I on a personal level still feel some empathy towards them because they haven't been dealt good hands in the lottery of life, and likely will never be able to come to Europe via other channels because of the lack of opportunities and education. But can't they seek refuge in neighboring Arab countries like Jordan instead? They'll be much happier there because they're more familiar with the place, etc.
Zepp Twofist
Member
It's illegal to cross the border on foot, so you have to have a vehicle to be allowed over. A bike is the cheapest option.
KonradLaw
Member
Walling off the borders have worked really well in Europe against migrant crisis. Everywhere they're put the flood of migrants is reduced to petite stream.
You can't stop everyone from crossing, but with fences you can make it a lot harder. In result fewer people get in and those that do are mostly then captured and shipped back to the other side of the border.
YianGaruga
Banned
KonradLaw
Member
You don't need to be physically present in a country to seek asylum in it. So this article does not give you the right to cross borders wherever you want.
Here is the path they were taking to get to Norway. When they arrive at Murmansk they buy a bike and ride the rest of the way to Norway through a border crossing region called Storskog. When they arrive some of them were sendt back to Russia who just dismissed them back to Norway again and so it repeated like they were pingpong balls. It's just a shitty situation all around and a horrible experience for the refugees.
Here is the Border between Russia-Norway (right-most area)
The county of Finnmark which is the upper northern part of Norway has a population of 75 000 people.
I will never understand this. These people are refugees but they act like they're shopping for a new car. Any stable country has to be better than a war torn nation. Why this need to find the promised land?
YianGaruga
Banned
yeah they should just write a letter and wait for months while they're being killed in their homes
ez
KonradLaw
Member
No, the idea is that they go into the first safe country they can and wait there for the response to the letter.
Other than there's a wall involved the two situations couldn't possibly be more different.
Are Norway building this to keep people in their undemocratic hell hole of a country? Are they totally cutting off land access to half a city? Are they going to shoot on sight anyone who tries to cross?
Or a ramp to climb over it.
And the prize for the dumbest comparison goes to Weckum. Congratulations!
The Berlin Wall was created by the GDR to keep people within their country, not to prevent people from other countries to enter. Also, Norwegian border patrol will not shoot civilians who try to cross the border. But yup, totally the same.
On a different note, how are Syrian refugees treated in Russia? Is it that bad or is it just like the "let's all move to Germany and Sweden, it's best there"?
Yeah but but but Trump! Outrage!
ClosingADoor
Member
660 feet of fence isn't exactly closing off your border. More like: Guys, you need to go past that checkpoint over there and line up instead of going around it.
Yeah, because modern Schengen border controls shoot migrants dead when they attempt to enter Europe.
Are you saying Norwegians are not helping with the crisis... like at all? We've pledged 1,2 billions which is $240 per person based on population (5 million). To compare U.K have pledged $26 per person based on population, Germany $32 and US have $16.
I've never even heard of this fence from any major Norwegian news outlets, but it sounds pretty useless and unnecessary. There was one period where thousands of people fled to Norway from Russia, but now it's almost none.
It also doesn't help that we have a rightwing-ish government either.
In context though, you do have a pension fund worth $171,715 per citizen.
Guys it's a 200 meter fence on a 200km border.
Imho there's something beyond that. I had read they're renovating the entire border checkpoint because it can't handle capacity, and that seems more likely.
Because a 200 meter fence is not going to stop fucking anyone, much less refugees that did some 200km on a bike at glacial temperatures.
Imho there's something beyond that. I had read they're renovating the entire border checkpoint because it can't handle capacity, and that seems more likely.
Because a 200 meter fence is not going to stop fucking anyone, much less refugees that did some 200km on a bike at glacial temperatures.
Your point being what exactly? That pension fund probably doesn't come out of nowhere, people and society as a whole work their lives long to get a proper pension (and in non-scandinavia often only get a low pension on which you can barely survive, especcially retired women are often hit very hard by it), why should they give even more away from that when they're already giving 7-8x more than Germany (who ironocally seem to feel like the moral compass of europe though, while at the same time having their highest weapon exports last year). Wrong tree to bark at.
Some might, most probably won't. And no need to use dumb quotation marks. If someone is not an actual refugee, they won't get asylum.
And how do you think they do that? This isn't like Finland vs. Soviet Union in WW2 where there is a single united & militarily trained nation against an outward thread. The situation in Syria & elsewhere in the region is extremely muddled and the common folk aren't in a position to do all that much about ISIS' dirty & relentless mass delusions. Who do you fight against & with? ISIS is the immediate threat, but even if they win against ISIS there are still dictators, other terrorist groups & such that will make life hell no matter what the situation. It's all good to tell other people to fight when you've lived your whole life coddled in the safety of the western world. Your lack of empathy is just baffling.
You're all "fix your own damn problems" now, but let's not forget how Norway declared neutrality & let Germany occupy them, had a lot of your people take refuge elsewhere and only got rid of Nazis with the help of the allied AND Soviet forces in World War II. Where was Norwegians' "fix your own problems" attitude then? IIRC tens of thousands of Norwegians fled the country to Sweden alone, at a time when Sweden wasn't nearly as wealthy as it is now and resources were suffering due to the worldwide war.
No reason to bring up dumb & unrealistic "nightmare scenarios" into this argument. Not all of Syria will ever even be able to escape their situation, so it's just needless hysteria to bring it up as if that is something that could realistically happen.
These problems aren't mutually exclusive. You can help refugees and the poor of your country at the same time, especially a rich-as-fuck country like Norway. If there are problems with your own poor people, they arent' because of a few thousand refugees, but the selfish-as-fuck right wing dicks not giving enough of a shit about them to do anything about them (with or without a refugee crisis). There's no political will to help your own people in need. That's not on the refugees, it's on your own selfish asses.
Your argument is such ignorance. Norway & other European countries are far wealthier now than a hundred years ago or during the big wars. If you "can't" take care of your own people, it's because all that wealth is held by a diminishingly small portion of the population and there is no (wide enough) political will to do anything about it. These countries have been able to take care of their poor perfectly well when they had only a fraction of the wealth they possess now, yet somehow when that wealth has increased almost exponentially, suddenly we don't have the ability to do so anymore. Refugees are not at fault here.
Because these people are (potentially) refugees who have the internationally recognized rights to get help in their time of need. And we aren't "fixing things" for them, we are providing humanitarian aid for people who are escaping regions of war & general unrest.
The logic in this quote is just.... o*\ Why do you think that the people who are advocating for the humanitarian aid for refugees/asylum seekers are laughing at the poor in their own country and don't want to help them as well? It's the right wing assholes who prevent poor people from getting (more) help, not the people who want all kinds of people in need to get the help that they need, no matter if they won the lottery of being born in a safe country like Norway or had the unfortunate luck to be born in a (then to-be, now current) hell hole like Syria. If society actually distributed it's wealth even semi-equally, we'd have plenty of money to go around for everyone.
And the far right are on the rise because people from all over are so fucking dumb, ignorant and selfish.
As if a 11 feet tall wall is gonna do fuck all about Russia's hypothetical aggressions towards Norway.
ClosingADoor
Member
At 660 feet wide it is also going to do fuck all against refugees trying to enter the country.
Looks more like just getting the place in order instead of trying to keep people out.
KonradLaw
Member
The problem is that it's bassicaly throwing money into a fire, a nice gesture, but incredibly inefficent and done by people who care more about how good about themselves they can feel than of creating actual good in the world.
Those people who come to Norway aren't escaping from war, because they've passed multiple safe countries along the way. And they're usually young, strong and rich (by their own countries' standards, because smugglers aren't cheap). And helping them costs insane ammount of money.
Even rich Europe has limits of how much it can spend. And Norwegian authorities have calculated that for what it costs to help on migrant in Norway they could help 27 in camps in middle-east and people there generally need that help far more than those who manage to enter Norway on their own.
Frankfurter
Member
We are not even close to those limits, though. Sweden is fine, Germany is fine and both of them have taken in far more refugees per capita than countries like Norway (or the UK, France, Spain etc. etc. etc.).
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