like getting 45 rupees for the shield? like getting the kokiri sword for milo?
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Not Starting off right: The biggest problem with modern Zelda games
- Thread starter boiled goose
- Start date
like getting 45 rupees for the shield? like getting the kokiri sword for milo?
Midnight Bliss
Member
I'd like a new zelda game where you start off right in front of a dungeon (with skippable cutscenes beforehand) but have the option to go exploring the world instead as well.
These are legitimate complaints about SS. All the rest of this, including lack of areas, hard to handle controls (lol really?), and bloated tutorials are pretty ridiculous.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I am talking about NES and SNES, so yes, even that was too much.
But I'm not complaining about OoT-level introductions necessarily. TP and SS style? Awful.
IrrelevantNotch
Banned
The controls still would've sucked.
I think your problem is your tastes have simply changed, which is perfectly fine.
Everything you described in your post has always been present in Zelda.
Charoncaori
Member
Spirit Tracks.
Come to think of it, the formula isn't usually as simple as Link rescuing Zelda. Zelda tends to help the plot along in the background while you're busy dungeon crawling.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Show.
Don't tell.
Modern Zelda intros are a lot of "telling."
Start out in media res. Give me control. Let me play my game. Tell me about the world through clues surrounding exciting action-packed intro.... or in a post-intro scene where it will be a much-welcomed cooldown from the action.
TheCongressman1
Member
CaptNfantasy
Banned
I always find it interesting that the things "hardcore gamers" want from the Zelda series are the exact things that would make me finally turn my back on it if they were implemented.
As someone who has played the living shit out of every console Zelda since the first one arrived under my tree on christmas in the 80s, i feel that i know by now what i want and dont want. Voice acting is absolutely horrible and could not ever in any way surpass what we have now. I look forward to and love the emotive noises made by characters in the games. They are full of emotion without projecting too much of the voice actors acting ability into the character. They let you know instantly the mood and demeanor of the character you are speaking with in a way that transcends language/translation barriers.
I do not ever want to hear VA in Zelda. I want them to take what they have so far and make it a permanent feature of the games, and expand upon it in its own way. Adding VA is not only a massively uncreative idea, it sacrifices an opportunity to expand upon something that has by luck or fate become unique and interesting.
Memes like animated gifs etc are so massively popular that its sickening. Not the full videos that those gifs come from, just the gifs. Sometimes a snippet is all you need to tell a story and tell it better than a drawn out one. The emotive vocalizations in NPC Zelda characters are exactly that. VA is the easy and facetious choice to "progress" the series, but to the detriment of the unique brilliance of what is already there. "Progress" should never be limited to a single path in creative endeavors. I hope none of you calling for VA in Zelda become game developers.
As someone who has played the living shit out of every console Zelda since the first one arrived under my tree on christmas in the 80s, i feel that i know by now what i want and dont want. Voice acting is absolutely horrible and could not ever in any way surpass what we have now. I look forward to and love the emotive noises made by characters in the games. They are full of emotion without projecting too much of the voice actors acting ability into the character. They let you know instantly the mood and demeanor of the character you are speaking with in a way that transcends language/translation barriers.
I do not ever want to hear VA in Zelda. I want them to take what they have so far and make it a permanent feature of the games, and expand upon it in its own way. Adding VA is not only a massively uncreative idea, it sacrifices an opportunity to expand upon something that has by luck or fate become unique and interesting.
Memes like animated gifs etc are so massively popular that its sickening. Not the full videos that those gifs come from, just the gifs. Sometimes a snippet is all you need to tell a story and tell it better than a drawn out one. The emotive vocalizations in NPC Zelda characters are exactly that. VA is the easy and facetious choice to "progress" the series, but to the detriment of the unique brilliance of what is already there. "Progress" should never be limited to a single path in creative endeavors. I hope none of you calling for VA in Zelda become game developers.
Seriously, they are making another ridiculous point. Has there been a 3D Zelda EVER where the main plot point was Link rescuing Zelda per se?
I honestly believe that 90% of Zelda complainers on GAF have never played a Zelda game.
I'm not saying SS intro is perfect, but it's better in that regard than both MM and TWW which both had longer intros yet never get mentioned in these threads.
TWW at least sometimes appears when mentioning intros, but nobody ever remembers you can't even save in MM after first hour, which is mostly filled with fetch quests.
Charoncaori
Member
Man, I just realized how cool it would be if you started up a new Zelda game, and Link was running around on the title screen, OoT-style, and you could just grab the controller and start exploring.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I agree that the introductions need to be faster-paced. Some people seriously just want to play the game. I know people who have tried playing Zelda but quit because the introduction took too long. It needs to be fixed. And I personally don't mind the introductions.
It also helps not having the game tell you what to do and when to do it. Majora's Mask had a great opening. There was nobody stopping me every minute to tell me what I was supposed to do. I actually died that first cycle. When I went back and figured out the chain of events that would allow me to retrieve my ocarina, I was very proud of myself.
Maybe I'm the only one who enjoyed that part of Majora's Mask.
It also helps not having the game tell you what to do and when to do it. Majora's Mask had a great opening. There was nobody stopping me every minute to tell me what I was supposed to do. I actually died that first cycle. When I went back and figured out the chain of events that would allow me to retrieve my ocarina, I was very proud of myself.
Maybe I'm the only one who enjoyed that part of Majora's Mask.
shadyspace
Banned
Yeah but Spirit Tracks was fucking garbage.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
????
No it hasn't.
Go play Zelda 1 right now. Tell me about the cutscenes you see, the handholding.
It starts off like a GTA. Go explore the world!
It's not as if that's a relic of old game design either. You could just as well start a game like Shadow of the Colossus. Let the player play, and maybe at some post-action sequence you can inform the story.
Turning on the game and getting a text dump is not modern. It's not good. It's not the only way. It's a bad design philosophy endemic to the Zelda team, probably the result of Aonuma and little else.
Charoncaori
Member
No it wasn't? I loved it. Especially the characterization. It was also a joy to play, even if waiting for the evil trains to let me through annoyed me for all of 15 seconds at a time.
Also, here's the thing.
Zelda openings are WAY better when Link is discovering a new land, rather than being in an established character in one; the sense of mystery and adventure is far greater.
Also for fuck sake Nintendo, a good game will appeal to the casuals by simply being a great game, it's how Skyrim did it, it's how Ocarina used to do it.
Zelda openings are WAY better when Link is discovering a new land, rather than being in an established character in one; the sense of mystery and adventure is far greater.
Also for fuck sake Nintendo, a good game will appeal to the casuals by simply being a great game, it's how Skyrim did it, it's how Ocarina used to do it.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Zelda 1 and LttP literally start with text dumps.
The one time Nintendo listened to gamers, they made Twilight Princess, which imo is the worst and least inspired Zelda of all time. That should tell you something.
And you are completely right about voice acting. Nintendo is well aware never to even come close to the uncanny valley, both visually and audibly. Lots have gotten use to it from VA in other games, but it would be jarring how that classic Zelda immersion would be broken by voice acting.
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
I didn't quite stop during the introduction, but by the time I had gotten to the first temple, I was so bored with Twilight Princess that I just couldn't play it anymore. Then again, I'm in the group that enjoyed being plopped down in a mysterious world and finding shit out on your own.
Charoncaori
Member
Heh, I can't stand the first Zelda. It's almost impossible to figure out what you should be doing without a guide, especially with the shitty translation. I thought even Zelda II was less annoying.
The beginning of Zelda 1 works pretty well though, at least until after the first couple dungeons.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If it's less than 3-5 text boxes, lasting about 10 seconds to button mash through... I wouldn't call it a "dump".
EmCeeGramr
Member
LttP's opening is far longer than that.
Lord_Byron28
Member
The RE6 creators and the Zelda Team should get together and discuss/develop the intro. We'll either get a giant bloated boring intro that doesn't tell/teach us anything useful while leaving out key details of how to play the game or we'll get a short, interesting intro that quickly teaches the player controls.
WrenchNinja
Member
You haven't played Kid Icarus have you.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
After 3 seconds you are controlling.
Then the game lets you find your own way into a dungeon, engage in combat, and rescue a princess.
Herding cows and finding shit for villagers this ain't.
Charoncaori
Member
Do you seriously want to see Link turn into Pit and start acting as his own Navi?
Because that's what would happen. Hahaha
Shining Sunshine
Banned
This just means Zelda 2 is the best Zelda.
WrenchNinja
Member
No, I would like to see the sidekick character talk so I don't have to have the game stop to a halt and see a stupid text box.
And Pit's a hell of lot more interesting of a character than Link, so sure, why not.
Trancetronic
Member
Caves
I think the new Zeldas are lacking caves. That's where the problem lies.
Links Awakening and LttP were awesome because all of the hidden secrets in the caves. Silly grottos just don't cut it
I think the new Zeldas are lacking caves. That's where the problem lies.
Links Awakening and LttP were awesome because all of the hidden secrets in the caves. Silly grottos just don't cut it
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
There is some happy medium between "dumped into an open world, find your own way" and "3-5 hours of cutscenes talking to villagers, doing chores and tutorials".
I wouldn't even mind a linear opening sequence if it were thrilling. 3-5 hours of town bullshit. It's horrid.
EmCeeGramr
Member
No, there's an unskippable minute long scene giving you plot.
EDIT: You're fighting enemies in Skyward Sword in less than 15 minutes, and out of town within the hour. It wasn't TP, there wasn't a 4 hour long intro.
Charoncaori
Member
I personally think voices would be just as immersion-breaking for me as text boxes. Zelda with voices would be interesting, I don't think I'd approve, though.
Unrelated note, I wonder why I never see Link's Awakening come up in these Zelda debate threads.
God dammit, lol
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Could be a generational thing....
But I would have thought that the new generation would be the "get me into the game now, trickle story out through the game" and the old generation would be the "slow and steady, let's help these townfolk, easy now, we'll get to the action in good time".... But the development of Zelda has trained us backwards.
shadyspace
Banned
The last Metroid is in captivity.
Lord_Byron28
Member
I don't neccesarily mind it the first time through but when you want to replay a game but have to go through a couple hours to get to the real meat it can be frustrating. I think there should be a way to establish mood/atmosphere effectively without doing mundane tasks. SS was tolerable but at the same time I feel they could've cut fat such as when Groose stole the bird.
I like slow starts in jrpgs. Usually they use the intro to create a sense of calm and home before your character gets thrust into conflict. Skyward Sword tries for something similar and to a degree it works but I think my issue is all the mundane tasks I have to do and the handholding not the slow, pleasant mood of the opening.
There is no real exposition apart from the short part at the very beginning telling the story of the Goddess, which is waaay shorter than ALttP's. The Skyloft section is character dialog establishing characters. It's not like you spend a long time before you get your sword and get to slice shit up.
Go to Zelda, talk to her about her relationship with link and the knight academy final.
Talk to townspeople to find out where your bird might be; gets you familiar with the townspeople under the guise of a minor conflict/quest.
Get your sword; don't even have to do a tutorial!
Bam, action! Exploring caves and fighting monsters!
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Both DS games have great dungeons and especially great bosses. They have their share of problems but they are among the best games on the DS.
Trancetronic
Member
there was only one real cave in the entire game, and it wasn't even a real cave
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
This thread is now about the lack of caves in modern Zelda.
Charoncaori
Member
I really don't care about how slow the intro is, as long as the game warms up.
I wish the series had some proper, hidden secrets that aren't required to beat the game. Not just a set of magic armor or a shield, but like proper hidden dungeons or areas or weapons or stuff. Maybe I'm just getting old. My only disappointment with SS was being forced to backtrack instead of encouraged. Took all the wonder out of it.
I wish the series had some proper, hidden secrets that aren't required to beat the game. Not just a set of magic armor or a shield, but like proper hidden dungeons or areas or weapons or stuff. Maybe I'm just getting old. My only disappointment with SS was being forced to backtrack instead of encouraged. Took all the wonder out of it.
WrenchNinja
Member
There were plenty of caves in Twilight Princess.
And at the end of the caves there were chests.
And in the chests there were rupees.
Which you had to put back in the chest because your wallet was full. :|
And at the end of the caves there were chests.
And in the chests there were rupees.
Which you had to put back in the chest because your wallet was full. :|
I endorse this idea as well as the voice acting and overall formula change up.
For the last few Zelda games I've generally carried a neutral expression on my face when it comes to their characters, world, and over arching stories. What has carried the last few Zelda games for me was raw game play.
For the last few Zelda games I've generally carried a neutral expression on my face when it comes to their characters, world, and over arching stories. What has carried the last few Zelda games for me was raw game play.
There are caves in Eldin and Lanayru, too. Lake Floria is pretty much a watery cave as well.
Charoncaori
Member
Man, Skyward Sword made me cry. It took everything I loved about Link and Zelda from the cel-shaded games. You don't need voices for that.