soxinthebox
Member
I'd love to get some OS 9 going at some stage. Nostalgia + wallet full of classic games would go down nice
As for the security - it's a new "feature".
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Notch: Windows 8 could be "very, very bad for indie developers"
- Thread starter onQ123
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I'd love to get some OS 9 going at some stage. Nostalgia + wallet full of classic games would go down nice
As for the security - it's a new "feature".
Gatekeeper
balladofwindfishes
Member
but it's billed as legacy, as if someday it'll be depreciated. Labeling something as legacy in software implies an end to support.
Karak
Member
No. In no way are they forced to sell through the app store. The only thing I can figure is that MS will put a serious drive behind their store and some devs are a bit worried that MS will cash out most of the competition just by the default of MS being so rich. But it seems way odd that they are all saying "could"
Thats like us saying a game could suck. Its really weird and pretty unprofessional really. I mean its so vague and doesn't seem to actually merit out under normal scrutiny at least so far.
Where has Microsoft themselves ever used the term legacy with regards to the desktop?
SonofdonCD
Member
NO, you're not sure. He is exactly right. Not on Windows Phone 7 or 8, nor on Windows 8 are every game being sold forced to be on Xbox Live. There are certain guidelines that you have to adhere to in order to qualify to be on their service. Otherwise you just sell the game as is.
No, it isn't a possibility. People would jump ship if they did this.
Are these people you speak of "technologically inclined" enough to be able to use steam, the DD services speaking out against windows 8, or even playing these games in the first place?
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Failing to see the problem. Steam needs decent competition.
Microsoft is considering locking down the entire OS, not just an app store. Meaning anything that costs money and gets installed on W8 will have to pay royalties to MS.
As it stands, anyone can write software for Windows 7 for free. MS wants to stop that by locking that shit down. Its not set in stone yet, though, from what I've been reading on it.
Its no coincidence Valve and other developers started Linux development.
Microsoft is creating two development ecosystems as far as I know.
The first one is the metro app store is closed based on windows APIs and microsoft cert. The other is not in Microsoft purview per se (also always existed as long as windows has been around), but the fear stems from the notion that people will prefer the metro ecosystem. As far as I can tell there are no major changes to win32 or win64 applications development that would limit devs in anyway but I don't have final win8 code.
It doesn't matter. The majority of Windows users aren't gamers. If Microsoft decided it suited them better to cater to non-gamers (ie, people only using metro and buying apps through the MS store), then they could easily say that future development of the desktop as we know it is no longer worth it for them/obsolete.
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
That's a pretty narrow definition of "gamers" you've got there
The only real concrete pattern I've seen in Microsoft's vision for metro is one where they are making it progresively more open. Metro was launched with windows phone 7 where it was pretty locked down to control quality of user experience. They later release an update (7.5) that relaxed some restrictions and provided additional functionality. Now we see that Windows Phone 8 brings a much more open ecosystem than 7/7.5 did. Even the developer payout is higher than any other app-store. In all of this we see MS actually moving in the direction of being less restrictive as a platform matures. They've been doing this with the Xbox as well. It takes more of a leap of faith to say that just because of things like UEFI, ARM, etc... that MS is trying to destroy PC freedom.
Still, it will be only a mater of months before the EU decides that the MS app-store will be the first and only one to be forced to uninstall itself and allow users to install Android marketpace or AppStore in its place.
Didn't MS make the free version of visual studio only able to development Metro apps? That's step 1 right there, and leads credence to the above poster who said that, in the future and not necessarily in W8, Microsoft wants to stop that and start getting some royalties coming their way.
I think you're more likely to see Apple do this before Microsoft.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
When have they said anything of the sort?
As it stands, anyone can write software for Windows 8 for free.
So the issue is that Micrisoft is now finally trying to compete with Windows software distributors themselves? Like the Mac App Store or the "IE of digital storefronts"?
My question is: Isn't this what we wanted Microsoft to do with GFW in the first place? The whole reason Steam is where it is now is because Microsoft took too long to do that shit themselves.
Say Microsoft actually does make a big push for PC games to be sold through Metro. Doesn't that basically mean that they'd finally be giving a shit about GFWL? Or is that issue just so far-gone that gamers now just want Microsoft to just step the hell out of the way and let Valve handle things?
Ideal Dream: Microsoft just let's Valve handle Window's 8's official software storefront.
also probably wrong, as the numbers are largely different when compared to other sources.
On topic, I'm still failing to see the issues these people are bringing up, present on the OS.
As an outside observer and casual Windows user (I don't have Windows 8 installed on any of my machines), I can somewhat understand the mindset of Windows moving towards an app / app store driven environment based on how Windows 8 is shaping up, and I don't think MS "locking down" the system is entirely out of the question. I wouldn't expect this to occur overnight (nor is it), but the fact that the desktop is an icon in Metro, and not a directly bootable environment does give me the feeling that it's not the priority environment MS wants its users in.
I would hope that this is not the direction MS is moving towards (nor would I hope that Apple would outright prevent any application from being installed in OSX either) but I honestly wouldn't put it past either of them to have this longterm vision.
I would hope that this is not the direction MS is moving towards (nor would I hope that Apple would outright prevent any application from being installed in OSX either) but I honestly wouldn't put it past either of them to have this longterm vision.
Ummm..... No. The nature of Windows will allow people to get apps around the metro store. They limit they lose JAVA based apps, cloud apps, and legacy apps (Among other forms).
They want to solve an issue that less informed people have had for a long time which is what apps to download, so by offering a place of discovery in theory which benefits devs and consumers.
Honestly Apple has a higher chance of that happening because there are less devs in that space.
Edit: The people are bitching are ones that control their distribution channels on the PC, they fear that app discovery will shift to a Microsoft app store. Food for thought.
Seems like it won't. I'm not really so sure why this is such an incendiary thing TBH. Valve Notch and Blizzard all come out and express concern, Gamers take note. I dunno, to me that seems pretty expected considering the pedigree of the people/companies voicing concern.
I would not be surprised to have to install Windows 8 on the next Xbox to go on Xbox Live since Microsoft is likely to push W8 on all of their products.
MS actually said they are locking things down?
I knew I remembered reading it:
http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/240001856/microsoft-drops-metro-only-approach-for-visual-studio-express-2012.htm
Initially Microsoft said VS Express could ONLY develop Metro apps. Obviously the outcry was large enough that they reversed their decision, but right there is the proof guys. Microsoft wants Metro to be the one and only, at some point.
http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/240001856/microsoft-drops-metro-only-approach-for-visual-studio-express-2012.htm
Initially Microsoft said VS Express could ONLY develop Metro apps. Obviously the outcry was large enough that they reversed their decision, but right there is the proof guys. Microsoft wants Metro to be the one and only, at some point.
Completely and utter bullshit. Where has Microsoft said that they want to (or plan to) lock down desktop Windows 8?
Good thing you don't need Visual Studio to develop Windows software.
That's the fear of locking down the OS - they already started with their secure boot BS. That is why some devs are starting Linux development - its an Open OS. The store isnt the issue.
As it stands, yes, which is why I said "considering". There's not much more to go on other than "we don't know what they will do". As for some developer friends of mine - they aren't too excited, either. Its not news.
saltywalrus
Member
They haven't said they will get rid of desktop, but it's pretty obvious they think WinRT is the future and Win32 is the past. Just look at Steve Sinofsky's blog.
In 5-10 years I wouldn't be surprised if they totally get rid of desktop from consumer operating systems. Then they might release a more expensive version just for professionals that need other apps like Photoshop.
brotkasten
Member
See my previous post. They were seriously thinking about it, but reversed their decision based on the outcry.
They have released the metro version of visual studio 12 first, but they are releasing the other express versions soon. The only thing this is telling me is that they want small devs to take a look at their app store.
The purpose of the desktop is display content and apps anyway. The desktop is a point of entry not how apps run. So for microsoft to change that doesn't affect how apps work.
In the Metro interface you can access/display more than metro apps fyi.
Notch said:
If.
Everyone is losing their shit over if. And that's all this is so far, if.
Maybe they will go to a closed OS in the future. But they haven't yet, and Windows 8 doesn't seem to be the if people are looking for.
Even though I think all these predictions of impending doom are a bit paranoid, MS should still come out and say something at this point and calm the waters. This is reminding me of when people swore UAC was going to be the death of computing freedom.
Conversely, the users not technologically inclined but used to using a version of Windows for the past... 17 some-odd years take one look at Metro, go "What the heck is this crap?", and complain to Microsoft about how confusing and crappy their new OS is.
Big picture. Not now. I know everyone wants to look at now, now... big picture. Small grabs here and there.
As for developers and other sales platforms like Valve/Steam - they already have competition in the marketplace and haven't made an outcry. But they are with Win8 because... hey... big picture.
The fact that they had considered locking it down or even a small part is an indication of a much larger plan. A single OS for desktop, mobile, tablet, etc...
Dot connecting. That's all I'm saying. It will happen at some point.
Edit:
If it eases some of you consider this just "speculation" then so be it. Nothing is concrete right now so until something does happen - it hasn't happened. But the dots are there waiting for MS to connect them.
Latin Hobbit
Neo Member
You misunderstand my point, which is that Microsoft is doing everything in their power to make metro the next big thing and valve are being locked out. After launching steam stlrefront for OSX and soon for Linux as well a store front for mobile games designed for ARM platforms is the next logical step for steams expansion. They can add this functionality to their android app, since that platform allows other stores. It is likely that you eventually will be able to install games onto your tablet through steam instead of Google play or the Amazon app store.
.
Developers would jump ship to Linux. You really don' need windows as a development environment. You could just have windows to make sure your software will run while you develop on Linux.
BTW, the free Visual Studio Express 2012 (the free one) was originally supposed to only support Metro apps: you'd need to either buy the Professional version for developing Desktop applications or stick with the older versions.
After the massive amount of shitstorm caused by programmers all over the internet, Microsoft gave in and announced they are going to offer "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop" for free as well, but it is clear that they intend entertainment and media consumption on the Windows platform to happen primarily on Metro while the Desktop says around for development and professional purposes.
After the massive amount of shitstorm caused by programmers all over the internet, Microsoft gave in and announced they are going to offer "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop" for free as well, but it is clear that they intend entertainment and media consumption on the Windows platform to happen primarily on Metro while the Desktop says around for development and professional purposes.
I think the uncertainty and concern from developers here is a longer term one. Everything might be okay in Windows 8, but what about the next version(s)?
Microsoft can come up with any stupid restriction or requirement on the fly and developers would have to deal with it if they wanted to remain in the store. Sure, this is a problem with Steam and other stores as well, but I think developers trust Valve a lot more than Microsoft. Look what MS does with Xbox 360 and not allowing any free DLC, or the online multiplayer gaming subscription fee they tried to introduce for PC gamers with Games for Windows Live.
Mac developers seem angry with the Mac App Store walled garden and restrictions as well, so this isn't a Windows specific concern.
Microsoft can come up with any stupid restriction or requirement on the fly and developers would have to deal with it if they wanted to remain in the store. Sure, this is a problem with Steam and other stores as well, but I think developers trust Valve a lot more than Microsoft. Look what MS does with Xbox 360 and not allowing any free DLC, or the online multiplayer gaming subscription fee they tried to introduce for PC gamers with Games for Windows Live.
Mac developers seem angry with the Mac App Store walled garden and restrictions as well, so this isn't a Windows specific concern.
Do you understand that they make most of their money via enterprise and business solutions? They're not going to an iOS knock off. I mean, unless they want to give up the market they dominate in exchange for a small piece of one they don't, but I would hope even the most rabid Microsoft hater doesn't think they're that stupid.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
'Considering' implies they've had an open discussion about the possibility. As it stands Windows 8, which is finalised and launching in a couple of months, isn't locked down at all and Microsoft haven't even hinted that they're considering it. Will Windows ultimately go down that path? Maybe. But not with Windows 8.
Edit: When you think about it it is not the only way to make apps on windows, but yeah that would be kinda limiting.
It's not like Microsoft does extensive focus and UI testing on users to see if they know one is better than the other. Oh wait....
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx
soxinthebox
Member
Business and enterprise are the major reason they are keeping the Desktop. But consumers are bleeding into consumption-centric OSes and that's where Metro steps in.
soulassssns
Banned
Exactly why is it not a good OS as these people keep stating?
This would never happen because there is Linux. There are Linux distros that are easy to use. The only thing that Linux currently lacks is backing. MS would be dumb to upset a lot of big devs. Because if big devs feel threatened I think they would band together and back Linux. No way MS and Apple want that.
Nailed it.
I'm really confused why people are still acting like Windows 8 could be "locked down further"
1) It's not locked down at all right now
2) It's literally done
I love me some Notch, but it's like he's speaking bullshit by reading rumors and believing them without actually trying to learn any facts about Windows 8.
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
That use of the word "considered" sounds like the one my mommy uses when she wants me to adopt her perspective rather than speculating the possibilities.
Notch has a store and like everyone else that has a store they don't want to compete against a store that is integrated into the OS.
KernelPanic
Member
I think the concern is with the trend of what they are doing going from Windows 7 to Windows 8, 9 and 10 could be worse if this is the direction MS is going.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Because it might be a stepping stone to a future version of the OS that might require developers to distribute their apps through Microsofts Windows Store rather than, for example, Steam.