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[Monumental]

So, to put it simply, all non METRO apps/games/other stores will run fine on windows 8 in desktop mode

Metro store and the Metro interface will be the only ones that will run Metro specific apps/games etc that will only be available at Metro store

All in all, MS is making an integraded store with windows 8 that does favour them, but does not exclude or lock down windows 8 in general for anyone or anything, as long as they run in desktop/non Metro mode

If the above is true, it is not 50% lockdown, it is 0% lockdown and 100% Metro interface/store lockdown, which is how all stores work anyway, with the exception that MS has the OS integration advantage

Exactly right.

The bolded is what's causing the fear and panic from the competitors though, and it's why they claws have begun to come out.

Metro is meant to have applications that can also run on ARM machines. How would Steam running on it make any sense, when their entire business is selling x86 and (largely) directx games?

Is steam on Linux gonna magically become more compatible with my current steam library than windows 8?

Also exactly right. Which is why the reactions from Valve and Blizzard and now Notch are disingenuous. They are not even in the ARM/Metro Platform. They're just using it to denounce the entire OS.

 

[alexandros]

The Metro part could not really be open, since the whole idea is to have something that works on ARM and various platforms and to promote the new MS store as well

Why can't it be open? What does working on ARM have to do with allowing other people to sell apps and games through Metro?

You are full of paranoid ramblings.

Ok, thanks for your input.

 

[nasos_333]

Why can't it be open? What does working on ARM have to do with allowing other people to sell apps and games through Metro?

Ok, thanks for your input.

I guess it would require a lot more testing to have something that works on all these systems with the different interfaces

But in general this is MS trying to make money and unify their systems at the same time

I am sure if any company could do it, they would

Apple is doing it too

The point is that windows 8 is still an open platform and not locked, so anyone can still keep making and releasing games/apps there

 

[soul creator]

Why can't it be open? What does working on ARM have to do with allowing other people to sell apps and games through Metro?



Ok, thanks for your input.

0% of what Steam sells works on ARM, so how exactly would it benefit them to have a separate store on it, even if it was "allowed"?

 

[alexandros]

But in general this is MS trying to make money and unify their systems at the same time

They're free to do that, as long as they go about it fairly. Not allowing competition on your platform (Metro) is not fair.

0% of what Steam sells works on ARM, so how exactly would it benefit them to have a separate store on it, even if it was "allowed"?

0% works NOW. That could very well change if Windows and ARM devices take off.

 

[Monumental]

Why can't it be open? What does working on ARM have to do with allowing other people to sell apps and games through Metro?

The ARM side is brand new platform that Microsoft has complete control over. Just like Apple with iOS, Sony with PSN, Nintendo with Virtual Console, Amazon with their Kindle Store, Blackberry with App World, and whichever other platform you can think of.

They're free to do that, as long as they go about it fairly. Not allowing competition on your platform (Metro) is not fair.

*facepalm*
what do you not get about this? This is Microsoft's ARM platform. If someone has an ARM Tablet with WinRT then they bought it because of Microsoft ARM platform. Just like people buy iPhones and iPads for Apple's iOS platform or people can only use PSN on a PS3, or Wii Shop/Virtual Console on a Wii.

The only difference is that Microsoft has attached that platform along with their Desktop OS so A LOT more people have access to it. But it is still it's own closed platform.

 

[Karma]

Ok, thanks for your input.

It is what you said when someone was predicting Valve could go bad. You are doing the same thing with Microsoft.

Answer this one question.

Can people install Steam or any other program on a Windows 8 machine or not? Yes or No.

 

[nasos_333]

They're free to do that, as long as they go about it fairly. Not allowing competition on your platform (Metro) is not fair.

0% works NOW. That could very well change if Windows and ARM devices take off.

Does Apple allow competition on iphone or iPad ?

Or Sony allow different stores on PS3 ?

I dont think that would ever happen, the only thing you will ever get open from MS is windows 8

 

[alexandros]

The ARM side is brand new platform that Microsoft has complete control over.

Great. Then release it as a separate product and keep it out of the more open Windows environment.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think this Win 8 fearmongering is taking it a bit far.

What they're essentially arguing is that having an App Store tied to the OS is a bad thing.

It's 2012... everyone has an app store. This is barely some sort of shrewd move on Microsoft's part.... it's the status quo of our world. All the other platforms have them!

 

[alexandros]

Does Apple allow competition in iphone or iPad ?

Apple both manufactures the hardware and develops the software, it's not the same thing.

 

[Game Guru]

Ok, thanks for your input.

There is an old saying... It's not paranoia, if it's true. Considering this is Microsoft, assuming the worst case scenario is probably the better option... I mean, going back to a comment earlier.

I think it would be extremely easy for Microsoft to sell users on the benefits of a closed platform. Easier app discovery/searching, one click installs and no license/serial crap, free updates for life, user reviews to help them make more informed purchase decisions, no need to hand over your credit card and personal information to random developers, guaranteed safety from malware and viruses, etc.

Considering what Microsoft has done concerning credit cards on Xbox Live, I think I'd rather take my chances with the random developers. I do still think it is technically prudent to clarify that it's Metro and the Windows Store that are the problems with Windows 8 though.

 

[nasos_333]

I think this Win 8 fearmongering is taking it a bit far.

What they're essentially arguing is that having an App Store tied to the OS is a bad thing.

It's 2012... everyone has an app store. This is barely some sort of shrewd move on Microsoft's part.... it's the status quo of our world. All the other platforms have them!

Exactly

And Windows 8 is still open as usual anyway

 

[soul creator]

Great. Then release it as a separate product and keep it out of the more open Windows environment.

Windows key + D

There, I just removed Metro.

Or, install steam, drag steam tile above windows store tile. Competing stores on desktop metro!

 

[erawsd]

It is true. 50% of the new Windows 8, the Metro UI and platform, is locked down completely. You can't make a competing store, you can't publish a Metro app/game and sell it outside of the Windows Store, you can't even list your desktop app at the Windows Store without paying Microsoft money.

The other 50%, the desktop environment, is business as usual for now. However, the desktop's relegation to a simple tile on Metro and the fact that Microsoft is forcing Metro on everyone, desktop and tablet users alike, these are clear signs that Microsoft intends to marginalize the desktop and establish Metro as the "Windows experience" from now on.

Everything is relegated to a "simple" tile. That is the whole point of the Metro interface -- its designed to make finding and consuming content simpler. When you install apps on the desktop they also appear as a metro tile. In fact, the big bad MS Marketplace everyone fears is among the plainest and smallest of the tiles.

You are right that Metro is meant to be the "Windows Experience". However, the fact that the desktop environment still exist is proof that MS knows the platform can't survive without it.

 

[Sean]

Yes, exactly. Whatever will be counter productive can and will be solved with marketing ("Windows, now virus free"), and the slow nudge towards a walled in environment. It's not hard imagining "Windows App Store" buttons everywhere. It's not hard to imagine developers being at an disadvantage because consumers are afraid of that a non "Metro" link will steal their identity.

"But they wouldn't just do that to desktop applications!" Remember MSDOS? I'm pretty sure people aren't clinging on to their copies of Windows 98 or whatever.

Exactly. Many Windows users are already concerned about viruses and security so it'd be fairly easy for Microsoft to spin such a move as "protecting" them.

The writing is on the wall here. It's not going to be an overnight change and everyone will be slowly eased into it, but Windows will become more restricted/locked down over time. And so will OS X for that matter (we are already seeing signs of that with "Gatekeeper" in Mountain Lion for example). Getting a 20-30% cut on all software sold through their stores is a pretty big incentive for these guys to lock things down a bit.

I'm not sure why people blindly trust massive multi-billion dollar corporations to do the right thing. Whether it's Google, Apple, MS, Facebook, none of them give a crap about us. They all just want to make as much money as possible.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Uh-huh. People calling Newell, Pardo and Notch clueless is not an opinion, it's fanboyism.

Call it whatever you want. Doesn't mean that people - gasp - don't disagree with these people.

 

[Monumental]

Great. Then release it as a separate product and keep it out of the more open Windows environment.

Why?

Imagine for Windows 9, Microsoft unveils that you can play all Xbox 360 games on the OS. Just insert your disc and you can play.

What're you arguing about is the equivalent of complaining that Windows 9 doesn't play PS3 or Wii Games. And that if it can't play PS3 or Wii games then it shouldn't play Xbox 360 games either. Keep that functionality out of Windows 9.

Do you see now what the problem is with your logic?

 

[Odrion]

Windows key + D

There, I just removed Metro.

Does Windows 8 have an option to have Metro permanently disabled? That means a desktop on startup, a "legacy" start menu, and opening any file on my desktop will not EVER throw me into Metro?

That's a rhetorical question. Because I know they don't! But here's a real one: Why does Microsoft want to have everyone accustomed to Metro?

 

[Karma]

But here's a real one: Why does Microsoft want to have everyone accustomed to Metro?

Because the world is going to mobile devices. A simple touch interface is the future and Microsoft knows it.

 

[Game Guru]

Exactly. Many Windows users are already concerned about viruses and security so it'd be fairly easy for Microsoft to spin such a move as "protecting" them.

The writing is on the wall here. It's not going to be an overnight change and everyone will be slowly eased into it, but Windows will become more restricted/locked down over time. And so will OS X for that matter (we are already seeing signs of that with "Gatekeeper" in Mountain Lion for example). Getting a 20-30% cut on all software sold through their stores is a pretty big incentive for these guys to lock things down a bit.

I'm not sure why people blindly trust massive multi-billion dollar corporations to do the right thing. Whether it's Google, Apple, MS, Facebook, none of them give a crap about us. They all just want to make as much money as possible.

No, I don't trust any massive corporation to do the right thing. However, I do trust them to fight each other when one is interfering on how another makes money. Obviously, Steam, Blizzard, and Notch aren't too happy now that Microsoft is threatening their bottom line, but I can't imagine the Anti-virus companies are going to be happy, either, should viruses actually become a thing of the past.

 

[Odrion]

Because the world is going to mobile devices. A simple touch interface is the future and Microsoft knows it.

And if someone likes the simplicity of Metro, they could just keep it on. If Microsoft really wanted it to be on option for casual users, it would've been an option.

But it's not, it's something Microsoft wants everyone to use. Or at least be use to.

Windows 8 is Microsoft's idea of boiling a frog. And the frog is the idea of an "open platform".

 

[erawsd]

Exactly. Many Windows users are already concerned about viruses and security so it'd be fairly easy for Microsoft to spin such a move as "protecting" them.

The writing is on the wall here. It's not going to be an overnight change and everyone will be slowly eased into it, but Windows will become more restricted/locked down over time. And so will OS X for that matter (we are already seeing signs of that with "Gatekeeper" in Mountain Lion for example). Getting a 20-30% cut on all software sold through their stores is a pretty big incentive to lock things down a bit.

I'm not sure why people blindly trust massive multi-billion dollar corporations to do the right thing. Whether it's Google, Apple, MS, Facebook, none of them give a crap about us. They all just want to make as much money as possible.

Whats funny is that very little of this has to do with us. Gabe and co aren't concerned about what Windows 8 means for consumers... they are afraid of what it means for their business and their ability to squeeze money out of us.

 

[Chinner]

Whats funny is that very little of this has to do with us. Gabe and co aren't concerned about what Windows 8 means for consumers... they are afraid of what it means for their business and their ability to squeeze money out of us.

so you're happier giving your 30% to microsoft then.


lol.



lol.

 

[Karma]

so you're happier giving your 30% to microsoft then.


lol.



lol.

What is so funny. Valve, Apple, Google and anyone else with an app store takes 30%.

 

[erawsd]

so you're happier giving your 30% to microsoft then.


lol.



lol.

Happier? No. I just could not care less.

 

[soul creator]

And if someone likes the simplicity of Metro, they could just keep it on. If Microsoft really wanted it to be on option for casual users, it would've been an option.

But it's not, it's something Microsoft wants everyone to use. Or at least be use to.

Windows 8 is Microsoft's idea of boiling a frog. And the frog is the idea of an "open platform".

But...it is an option. I could literally never install a single metro application, and my windows 8 pc would run all the same things windows 7 did. Sure, the Metro UI still always exists, but that's a UI/visual change, not a "platform openness" change.

I think people are confusing the two.

 

[kruis]

BTW, the free Visual Studio Express 2012 (the free one) was originally supposed to only support Metro apps: you'd need to either buy the Professional version for developing Desktop applications or stick with the older versions.

After the massive amount of shitstorm caused by programmers all over the internet, Microsoft gave in and announced they are going to offer "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop" for free as well, but it is clear that they intend entertainment and media consumption on the Windows platform to happen primarily on Metro while the Desktop says around for development and professional purposes.

This is IMO the primary reason why developers/publishers don't like Windows 8. If this actually happens, only professionals and power users will run an OS suitable for desktop apps and full featured games. Joe and Jill Sixpack will stick with Windows RT (either running on a tablet or a laptop) with just Metro apps and games.

Currently *everyone* running any version of Windows can buy games from every digital download store. It's an open market for everyone, users and publishers. But what if with Windows 9 only 30% of current users will stick with the full desktop experience and the other 70% of the population can only buy Metro apps and games from only the MS app store?

Desktop apps won't go away in the professional world, but they run business apps, not games. But consumers could choose Windows 8 and Metro in a big way and in that case free software development and open app stores will wither. I see why Valve, Blizzard and other publishers are unhappy with that prospect.

 

[Odrion]

Happier? No. I just could not care less.

I care, because if the 360 is what Microsoft will do with a closed platform

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I'm not sure why people blindly trust massive multi-billion dollar corporations to do the right thing. Whether it's Google, Apple, MS, Facebook, none of them give a crap about us. They all just want to make as much money as possible.

I don't think anyone blindly trusts anyone, but you can take a look at a corporations pattern of behaviour to see what level of trust is warranted.

I wouldn't trust Facebook to care much about my privacy.

I wouldn't trust Google to not harvest data to sell me ads.

I wouldn't trust MS to not be utterly and ruthlessly anti-consumer to make a dollar.

I wouldn't trust a serial rapist to date my sister.

 

[Durante]

Amazing.

First it was "just" Gabe Newell, you know the guy who has given us Steam and Steam sales and who's company has been shown to be extremely supportive of its customers.

Now we've had representatives of arguably the most important PC developer and the most successful indie of the decade join in.

And still you have people on GAF claiming that all is fine and dandy, since the legacy mode of MS' next OS will still let you install your own apps. Can such a complete lack of forethought be for real or are you just trolling at this point?

 

[Odrion]

But...it is an option. I could literally never install a single metro application, and my windows 8 pc would run all the same things windows 7 did. Sure, the Metro UI still always exists, but that's a UI/visual change, not a "platform openness" change.

I think people are confusing the two.

I don't think it's confusion, it's how people are interpreting the Metro UI.

Some people think it's Microsoft trying to cater to the casual market that enjoys the simplicity of their mobile phones, after all, I guess the Desktop market is shrinking.

While others think it's Microsoft's first steps in it's plan to get the mass market to use an operating system that they have total control over.

And Metro is NOT an option. And that's evidence towards the latter. You will see it when you boot up, you will use it as your start menu, and eventually you'll need to use programs or open files that only operate with the Metro interface. If it was an option, then there would BE AN OPTION.

 

[erawsd]

I care, because the 360 is what Microsoft will do within a closed platformer

That is something I'll worry about when it comes to that. For now and the foreseeable future, I'll enjoy using win8 along with steam, world of warcraft, and minecraft.

 

[Team Filler]

Amazing.

First it was "just" Gabe Newell, you know the guy who has given us Steam and Steam sales and who's company has been shown to be extremely supportive of its customers.

Now we've had representatives of arguably the most important PC developer and the most successful indie of the decade yoin in.

And still you have people on GAF claiming that all is fine and dandy, since the legacy mode of MS' next OS will still let you install your own apps. Can such a complete lack of forehtought be for real or are you just trolling at this point?

To be fair, we know that at least one of those is a current employee of Microsoft.

That is something I'll worry about when it comes to that. For now and the foreseeable future, I'll enjoy using win8 along with steam, world of warcraft, and minecraft.

Then you are part of the problem. Microsoft's business tactics are a known entity, and have been so for many years now. Only supporting their first steps into a closed system is still support.

 

[Odrion]

Then you are part of the problem. Microsoft's business tactics are a known entity, and have been so for many years now. Only supporting their first steps into a closed system is still support.

Thank you.

 

[soul creator]

I don't think it's confusion, it's how people are interpreting the Metro UI.

Some people think it's Microsoft trying to cater to the casual market that enjoys the simplicity of their mobile phones, after all, I guess the Desktop market is shrinking.

While others think it's Microsoft's first steps in it's plan to get the mass market to use an operating system that they have total control over.

And Metro is NOT an option. You will see it when you boot up, you will use it as your start menu, and eventually you'll need to use programs or open files that only operate with the Metro interface. If it was an option, then there would of been an option.

Well, yeah. I interpret the metro UI on the desktop as...a UI change on the desktop. That's what the evidence points to it being.

Others interpret the UI on the desktop as some kind of slippery slope that will lead to desktop applications no longer being supported in windows 8 (even though people are literally using windows 8 right now, and everything from windows 7 works on it, so the slope isn't actually slippery). No evidence points to windows 8 on a PC being "locked down". The only "evidence" is MS being greedy in the past. But that supposed greed can also be used to support *keeping* the desktop (since that's their big competitive advantage compared to other companies, so why give it up?). What evidence is there that the pros of giving up the desktop in windows 8 pcs would outweigh the cons?

And the Metro UI is not an option (for the start menu), I agree. But Metro *apps* on a desktop PC are still an option. Those are two different concepts. As I said, if someone doesn't like the UI, that's fine. But that's a separate discussion from "is windows 8 less open for developers?"

My main point is that if this horrible lockdown actually happens at some unspecified point in the future, it'll be because that's where the general trend of computing and every other tech company, developers, and consumers are headed and comfortable with, not because of anything specific with windows 8 (which what these quotes keep referring to). And if developers and consumers do in fact become more comfortable with it...then the market will have spoken, and they will have said the desktop is not as important as people say it is, lol.

 

[szaromir]

Amazing.

First it was "just" Gabe Newell, you know the guy who has given us Steam and Steam sales and who's company has been shown to be extremely supportive of its customers.

Now we've had representatives of arguably the most important PC developer and the most successful indie of the decade join in.

And still you have people on GAF claiming that all is fine and dandy, since the legacy mode of MS' next OS will still let you install your own apps. Can such a complete lack of forethought be for real or are you just trolling at this point?

So far all of it sounds like a FUD campaign since none of them actually describes how it's bad for them other than "we don't want a strong competitor".

Valve just pulled off an extremely anti-consumer action and I don't know why anyone would believe anything that comes from their hypocritical mouths.

 

[alexandros]

Windows key + D

There, I just removed Metro.

You switched out of Metro. Burying your head in the sand doesn't "remove" the world around you. Is this the level of discussion we are going to have?

Answer this one question.

Can people install Steam or any other program on a Windows 8 machine or not? Yes or No.

Yes. Your turn.

Can people install Steam or any other program on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store? Can Notch offer Minecraft on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store?

 

[alexandros]

delete pls.

 

[szaromir]

Yes. Your turn.

Can people install Steam or any other program on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store or not?

Can people install Steam on iOS or Android without going to Apple/Google store or not?

 

[Canis lupus]

And another game developper...

 

[alexandros]

Can people install Steam on iOS or Android without going to Apple/Google store or not?

iOS no, Android maybe by sideloading. What is your point? This is exactly why people are complaining you know, because Microsoft is closing down a (relatively) open platform.

 

[delirium]

iOS no, Android maybe by sideloading. What is your point? This is exactly why people are complaining you know, because Microsoft is closing down a (relatively) open platform.

They are not closing anything. Stop this FUD.

They are adding a new feature. Nothing is being removed.

 

[Odrion]

Well, yeah. I interpret the metro UI on the desktop as...a UI change on the desktop. That's what the evidence points to it being.

Others interpret the UI on the desktop as some kind of slippery slope that will lead to desktop applications no longer being supported in windows 8 (even though people are literally using windows 8 right now, and everything from windows 7 works on it, so the slope isn't actually slippery). No evidence points to windows 8 on a PC being "locked down". The only "evidence" is MS being greedy in the past. But that supposed greed can also be used to support *keeping* the desktop (since that's their big competitive advantage compared to other companies, so why give it up?). What evidence is there that the pros of giving up the desktop in windows 8 pcs would outweigh the cons?

And the Metro UI is not an option (for the start menu), I agree. But Metro *apps* on a desktop PC are still an option. Those are two different concepts. As I said, if someone doesn't like the UI, that's fine. But that's a separate discussion from "is windows 8 less open for developers?"

My main point is that if this horrible lockdown actually happens at some unspecified point in the future, it'll be because that's where the general trend of computing and every other tech company, developers, and consumers are headed and comfortable with, not because of anything specific with windows 8 (which what these quotes keep referring to). And if developers and consumers do in fact become more comfortable with it...then the market will have spoken, and they will have said the desktop is not as important as people say it is, lol.

I don't think anyone is expecting Microsoft to roll out some nefarious update that'll remove legacy mode and lock people into a Metro only environment for Windows 8. But as I said, it could be the beginning of Microsoft trying to push the market towards a closed infrastructure. By the time Windows 10 rolls out, it could be completely closed and if they made the right move, people would be very okay about it.

You switched out of Metro. Burying your head in the sand doesn't "remove" the world around you. Is this the level of discussion we are going to have?

I was going to say

"If someone put an elephant in my kitchen, and I decided to move around him to get to my refrigerator. That isn't choosing to not live with an elephant."

But then I thought why would the elephant be there? Would he be a chief? Or maybe he gets water for me? Then I realized that my similes are terrible.

 

[szaromir]

iOS no, Android maybe by sideloading. What is your point? This is exactly why people are complaining you know, because Microsoft is closing down a (relatively) open platform.

Windows RT is not Windows 8. Windows 8 remains open.

Now about that dying indie community on iOs...

 

[soul creator]

You switched out of Metro. Burying your head in the sand doesn't "remove" the world around you. Is this the level of discussion we are going to have?



Yes. Your turn.

Can people install Steam or any other program on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store? Can Notch offer Minecraft on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store?

Again, this isn't a windows 8 criticism, this is a "I don't like tablets and smartphones or where computing has been headed for the past 5 years" criticism. Which is fine, but that's a separate discussion from the windows 8 that consumers on their PC will actually use in the real world.

For those folks, windows 8 is a fancy start menu UI change.

 

[Monumental]

What this thread has shown is that people's biases and disdain for Microsoft clouds their view of every move Microsoft makes, whether or not it is legitimately a fair business practice.

People will bitch about Microsoft handling of the 360 and yet leave out how they freaking created the entire XBLA/Indie market and pushed for a high quality market of $5-$10-$15 games. No matter how much you may like PSN or Steam, the 'Indie' and mid-tier scene was only given prominence due to the efforts of Microsoft in the early 360 days.

Then you are part of the problem. Microsoft's business tactics are a known entity, and have been so for many years now. Only supporting their first steps into a closed system is still support.

Oh please, it's so easy to see right through your biases. To use your own words...

Why are people okay with apple and steam taking 30% but Microsoft doing it is somehow excessive?

And the Metro UI is not an option (for the start menu), I agree. But Metro *apps* on a desktop PC are still an option. Those are two different concepts. As I said, if someone doesn't like the UI, that's fine. But that's a separate discussion from "is windows 8 less open for developers?"

The people you keep responding will not acknowledge that point at all, even thought you've said it repeatedly.

Can people install Steam or any other program on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store? Can Notch offer Minecraft on Windows RT or Metro without going through the Windows Store?

Why do you keep going back to this idiotic point?

I'm going to use the same analogy as last time, this time DON'T IGNORE IT.

Imagine for Windows 9, Microsoft unveils that you can play all Xbox 360 games on the OS. Just insert your disc and you can play.

What're you arguing about is the equivalent of complaining that Windows 9 doesn't play PS3 or Wii Games. And that if it can't play PS3 or Wii games then it shouldn't play Xbox 360 games either. Keep that functionality out of Windows 9.

Do you see now what the problem is with your logic?

 

[alexandros]

They are not closing anything. Stop this FUD.

They are adding a new feature. Nothing is being removed.

A new feature that takes over as the default UI for Windows, one that features a Store as the only place to buy apps for it. Totally innocent.

 

[Vlodril]

People should freak out and speak against a closed windows os BEFORE it happens. People that say well wait until they do so are missing the point. By then it would be to late to affect change (if thats even possible).

The problem is that there isn't a viable alternative to Windows at the moment. Unless everyone falls on linux and start to make everything work on it.

 

[Odrion]

Oh Monumental, are you seriously defending how Microsoft treats the 360?