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Notch: Windows 8 could be "very, very bad for indie developers"

I'm going to use the same analogy as last time, this time DON'T IGNORE IT.

Imagine for Windows 9, Microsoft unveils that you can play all Xbox 360 games on the OS. Just insert your disc and you can play.

I'll play along. Let's say then that it happens as you say. If it was added as a bonus feature, I honestly wouldn't mind. BUT, if Microsoft decided to implement the Xbox dashboard as the main interface for Windows, if it made Xbox Live the main marketplace and shoved the desktop to the side, thus applying a closed-down layer as the main interface and platform for Windows, then yes I would mind. Which is exactly what happened with Windows 8.
 
Why?

Imagine for Windows 9, Microsoft unveils that you can play all Xbox 360 games on the OS. Just insert your disc and you can play.

What're you arguing about is the equivalent of complaining that Windows 9 doesn't play PS3 or Wii Games. And that if it can't play PS3 or Wii games then it shouldn't play Xbox 360 games either. Keep that functionality out of Windows 9.

Do you see now what the problem is with your logic?

An open platform is conducive to technological progress, small scale electronics aside.

Let me throw the whole Metro/Desktop thing into a different perspective. Metro is a 12oz can of pop, the desktop is a 1-liter. Both can be purchased for the same price, but for on-the-go quick carry - people choose the can.

Why? Convenience. It's there, its readily accessible and people will pay for convenience. Metro is in-your-face the minute you start Windows. W8 is the "do all" OS for PC, tablet, mobile, etc.

The idea is to get consumers on board with being comfortable to use Metro - it is a convenience for the consumer to have a single store for Metro and I believe that is fine and dandy and SHOULD exist for that type of environment for the services it provides. A nice single place to safely purchase software for that working environment.

The downside is that while you still can go to the desktop and it's "business as usual" on that side - the desktop environment is now the red-headed stepchild. It's no longer the centerpiece of the operating system.

Do you really think the average user will actively go to the desktop just to purchase from outside vendors? Or will they most likely say "oh... so here is the place where I buy my programs for Windows 8" when referring to Metro?

No other stores are allowed on Metro.

That wouldn't be an issue if Metro wasn't forced as the default interface for Windows 8. Microsoft is actively trying to pull consumers into Metro and away from other stores... that's business as usual, right? You want people to buy from your store! No brainer!

The problem is that MS wants Metro to be the default from here on out. I don't know a single PC user who has not voiced their disdain for a touch interface on desktop for a long time coming - but MS still went ahead with it anyway. It's not intuitive in the slightest, at least from my limited time with the developer preview.

It's flashy and very "mobile" looking because, hey, that's cool these days, rite? It's a shiny new toy the average consumer will go "ooooooooh" over. That's the intention.

Now fast forward 5 years from now. How much farther down the totem pole will the desktop be? People will be using Metro for convenience and sticking with that store as they should for convenience and peace of mind.

They are still given a choice - but that choice is an illusion - because people understand with technology you either adapt or get left behind. So they will adapt to the new system since it is the DEFAULT startup and the desktop and it's development environment will be a thing of the past once apps move forward with their Metro counterparts (currently most apps launch to desktop from Metro if not developed for Metro)

Now let's look at things from MY perspective trying to reach that market on Metro. How long does an application approval take? I have to pay 500 per year for a license? What about if I create open-source applications or decide to give people software for free... why am I obligated to pay a yearly subscription for my software if its free? What about patching software? How long will the approval process be and how much will it cost? Is there a way to expedite the process due to a known bug and I'd like to keep my paying customers happy by patching quickly? Etc.

I'm tired right now but, to me, it seems like they want to edge out the competition by playing the consumer. That's how this works. That's the business model and has been the business model for as long as I can remember.

Metro is front and center for a reason. MS wants you using metro, not the desktop. The writing is on the wall with a big flashing arrow pointing to it and nobody seems to notice :|

I want to go live with my software when I say so, not pending an approval process. I want to patch the minute I feel I need to patch, not pending an approval process. I would not be able to make a Metro app and sell it as I believe it should be sold on stores of my choosing. That's not how Metro works.

So the more people stick with Metro, the less they will use the desktop and it's applications, the more developers will be forced to move to a single-store system with the inability to sell their OWN software on their OWN terms. Until that day, I stick with desktop development and will not support Metro.

As someone who throws code at my screen several hours a day, I'm going to remain vigilant and keep my options open. It does not make sense from a business perspective to NOT study every single option well into the future and the avenues they present - no matter how off-the-wall they appear to be.

I have plenty of time to be complacent and ignorant when I'm dead. Now is not the time... big flashing arrow and all.
 
A new feature that takes over as the default UI for Windows, one that features a Store as the only place to buy apps for it. Totally innocent.
But it still does not remove any openness that existed in Windows 7. Metro UI in desktop Windows 8 is a start menu at the most. As for buying Metro apps only through Windows Store, its no different for Steamworks game. You have to buy it through Steam (yes, yes you can technically buy it elsewhere, but all they give you is a Steam key).

This FUD just reminds me of the FUD that was spread when Microsoft said they were supporting trusted computing and all the Linux people were yelling at how Microsoft was going to block their ability to install Linux on computers.
 
I don't know an awful lot about the eco-system that MS have planned if I'm honest...

it sounds like everyone fears that Microsoft is trying to create an Xbox-style walled garden marketplace for the PC... is that really well-founded?

Is this essentially about the Windows Marketplace?

this is what I read from it. they're all screaming to prevent it from happening. It hasn't been said that it IS happening as far as I know.

I'll play along. Let's say then that it happens as you say. If it was added as a bonus feature, I honestly wouldn't mind. BUT, if Microsoft decided to implement the Xbox dashboard as the main interface for Windows, if it made Xbox Live the main marketplace and shoved the desktop to the side, thus applying a closed-down layer as the main interface and platform for Windows, then yes I would mind. Which is exactly what happened with Windows 8.

ha ha wtf this is NOT exactly what happened with windows 8... metro screen is just the start menu.
 
For all this bitching about Windows not being open. Steam itself is not open. You literally can't play a Steamworks game without Steam.
 
For all this bitching about Windows not being open. Steam itself is not open. You literally can't play a Steamworks game without Steam.
Steam isn't the point.
Imagine for Windows 9, Microsoft unveils that you can play all Xbox 360 games on the OS. Just insert your disc and you can play.

What're you arguing about is the equivalent of complaining that Windows 9 doesn't play PS3 or Wii Games. And that if it can't play PS3 or Wii games then it shouldn't play Xbox 360 games either. Keep that functionality out of Windows 9.
Actually I don't understand this analogy. Is the 360 metro, and the PS3 and Wii are programs that wouldn't be certified on Metro?

And because of that, people would want Metro out of Windows 9?

So would Windows 9 play PS3 and Wii games if the 360 games didn't work? I'd take that trade.

Or are you saying programs that wouldn't of been certified on Metro wouldn't be on Windows 9 anyways?

Or are you saying those programs would exist anyways, but because they specifically wouldn't be on Windows Marketplace within Metro then Metro shouldn't exist?
 
For all this bitching about Windows not being open. Steam itself is not open. You literally can't play a Steamworks game without Steam.

The developers CHOOSE that path. If you want to create a Metro app - you have no choice but to sell on the Metro store and be bound by its business terms.
 
For all this bitching about Windows not being open. Steam itself is not open. You literally can't play a Steamworks game without Steam.
That's a problem, but it pales in comparison to the OS and distribution mechanism being controlled by the same vendor.

(Which in turn pales in comparison to the hardware, OS and distribution being controlled by a single entity, which is why I'll never buy an iOS product)
 
The developers CHOOSE that path. If you want to create a Metro app - you have no choice but to sell on the Metro store and be bound by its business terms.

To be clear, you're claiming that devs don't have a choice on the windows platform. It's metro or bust?
 
Then you are part of the problem. Microsoft's business tactics are a known entity, and have been so for many years now. Only supporting their first steps into a closed system is still support.

I'm supporting MS because they make a product that is worth my monies. Windows 8 fully supports "legacy" applications and there is absolutely no reason to believe that MS is going to get rid of them. If 5 or 6 years from now MS release Windows 9 and I can no longer run my "legacy" applications then guess what? I probably won't buy Windows 9. Its really that simple.

The fact of the matter is... well you have no facts. All this stuff about MS closing up Windows is *baseless* speculation. Its all one big "What If" scenario that is not supported by anything but a few millionaires that are worried about their bottom line.

Now should I support the fear mongering or a product that I've enjoyed for the last 2 months? Hmm...
 
This FUD just reminds me of the FUD that was spread when Microsoft said they were supporting trusted computing and all the Linux people were yelling at how Microsoft was going to block their ability to install Linux on computers.

You're right. It never happened. Fedora didn't cough up the cash to be compliant with ARM. The first stage of its bootloader is signed with an MS key... purchased from MS. Yep, it's blocked unless you have a key ;)

Care to spread any more misinformation?
 
I don't see a way for Microsoft to have a restrictive store that sells all the programs you can run on Windows and not break backwards compatibility. They're surely not going to break backwards compatibility.
 
I predict that in 12 months time no one will understand why these developers made all these comments about Windows 8.
 
Oh Monumental, are you seriously defending how Microsoft treats the 360?
QoKeb.gif
You're cute. Frankly, I don't let narrow-minded console wars bullshit skew my perspective on the workings of one of the biggest corporations in the world.
Let me throw the whole Metro/Desktop thing into a different perspective...
Look I understand everything you just said, but the flaw in your reasoning is that on one end you bemoan the functionality of Metro, and then you claim that it's going to be so widespread that developers will have no choice but to release Metro apps because otherwise no one will use their apps.

The difference between us is that I believe that the Metro and the Desktop serve two completely different purposes and each have their own place. I think that a good desktop app will still be successful and a good metro app will be successful.

If Microsoft manages to convince people that Metro is a good environment and most people start using Metro apps exclusively and stop using Desktop equivalents, then Microsoft deserves to reap the benefits of that through the Windows Store.

But I don't believe that will be the case. Right now Metro is in it's infancy, so the split is 0/100 for Desktop App Use. I think as people learn to use Metro for the purposes which it was designed then that split will become more even. I think Microsoft deserves the rewards for creating such an environment and risking their entire business on the line. But, at the same time I think that there will still be a tremendous amount of Desktop use and Desktop app developers will still be successful.

I don't see this future or developers being forced to create Metro Apps because no one will buy their precious app directly for the Desktop. If it's good, it will sell.
 
I don't see a way for Microsoft to have a restrictive store and not break backwards compatibility.
Then you're greatly lacking in imagination.

Ms releases DirectX12. To develop a DirectX12 game (the only version supported on Xbox 8) you need Visual Studio 2013. VS13 can not create "legacy" binaries for pre-Metro. Done.

(By the way, this is almost exactly what happened with VS12 and Windows XP compatibility)
 
Whats funny is that very little of this has to do with us. Gabe and co aren't concerned about what Windows 8 means for consumers... they are afraid of what it means for their business and their ability to squeeze money out of us.

Oh I completely agree there. All of these companies are primarily concerned with protecting their business models and squeezing out more money from us. Still, we shouldn't completely discredit Gabe's criticisms just because he runs a competing store.

Microsoft becoming the sole provider of all Windows software and receiving a 20-30% cut of everything would potentially make them billions of dollars. Why would they not go down that path eventually?
 
Read my above wall of text on this page.

No, I'm asking for clarification regarding this point. Not a what if scenario that may come to pass in a decade from now.

So...are you claiming devs don't have a choice on the windows platform. It's metro or bust?
 
The developers CHOOSE that path. If you want to create a Metro app - you have no choice but to sell on the Metro store and be bound by its business terms.

The fact that developers like Blizzard or Valve CHOOSE to shove intrusive DRM down consumers' throats means that I am not particularly concerned about their doom and gloom visions of the future.
 
Look I understand everything you just said, but the flaw in your reasoning is that on one end you bemoan the functionality of Metro, and then you claim that it's going to be so widespread that developers will have no choice but to release Metro apps because otherwise no one will use their apps.

The difference between us is that I believe that the Metro and the Desktop serve two completely different purposes and each have their own place. I think that a good desktop app will still be successful and a good metro app will be successful.

If Microsoft manages to convince people that Metro is a good environment and most people start using Metro apps exclusively and stop using Desktop equivalents, then Microsoft deserves to reap the benefits of that through the Windows Store.

But I don't believe that will be the case. Right now Metro is in it's infancy, so the split is 0/100 for Desktop App Use. I think as people learn to use Metro for the purposes which it was designed then that split will become more even. I think Microsoft deserves the rewards for creating such an environment and risking their entire business on the line. But, at the same time I think that there will still be a tremendous amount of Desktop use and Desktop app developers will still be successful.

I don't see this future or developers being forced to create Metro Apps because no one will buy their precious app directly for the Desktop. If it's good, it will sell.

Linux is amazing and free. How's that doing in the PC marketplace? When people buy a new PC with Win8 - they will see the default Metro in their face minute one. THAT is their first impression if Win8 - not the desktop. That impression is important, that impression sets the stage for the rest of the interaction with the operating system. People will use Metro because it is default.

It's not exactly a sleight of hand here - MS puts it in everyone's face. I spoke in my wall of text (sorry bout its largeness) how convenience affects a consumer's decision - this is exactly that. Adapt to the new or fall behind. That adaptation will force developers into creating Metro apps since that is what everyone will equate with Windows going forward. That is intentional, I believe.

It runs on almost everything for a reason (i actually like the idea of a unified OS, personally).
 
Its pretty sad that people with first hand experience with Windows 8 are shot down immediatley. There is a lot of irrational fear going round, Im sure Notch and Gabe would chuckle if they saw how easily people react to a few sentances. It sorta feels like Gabe and Notch are manipulating their fans and customers feelings, for whatever reasons.
 
The developers CHOOSE that path. If you want to create a Metro app - you have no choice but to sell on the Metro store and be bound by its business terms.
And developers CHOOSE the path to develop Metro apps. They're free not to develop using Metro for Windows. Hell, they're free to use OpenGL on Windows.

As for your other points, its just speculation. Yes Microsoft could close the platform, but IMO, they're not for the reasons I list below.

Oh I completely agree there. All of these companies are primarily concerned with protecting their business models and squeezing out more money from us. Still, we shouldn't completely discredit Gabe's criticisms just because he runs a competing store.

Microsoft becoming the sole provider of all Windows software and receiving a 20-30% cut of everything would potentially make them billions of dollars. Why would they not go down that path eventually?
Because they would be slapped with the biggest antitrust suit since Ma Bell got broken up?

Microsoft got into a shitstorm for trying to include an antivirus in Windows.
 
No, I'm asking for clarification regarding this point. Not a what if scenario that may come to pass in a decade from now.

So...are you claiming devs don't have a choice on the windows platform. It's metro or bust?

Clarification IS in my aforementioned wall of text, sir. The environment Metro creates will replace the desktop eventually. An OS for multiple devices is not something you do just for the hell of it. It introduces the new default for Windows-based devices. As stated earlier, people will adapt or fall behind. The more Metro is used, the farther back the desktop environment will become.

Right now, choice is an illusion. Building now will require migration at some point if you have a continuously updated product because hey "desktop... old busted!"
 
Its pretty sad that people with first hand experience with Windows 8 are shot down immediatley. There is a lot of irrational fear going round, Im sure Notch and Gabe would chuckle if they saw how easily people react to a few sentances.

Win8 is the foundation, it is a means, not the end. THAT is the fuss. As someone who develops software - you're damn right I am going to consider EVERY possible future outcome for the safety of my business no matter how crazy it might seem.

Or is that wrong of me to prepare for the bad along with the good?

Edit:
With all that said I am going to bed. I hope everyone has a good night - it was actually nice discussing this topic with some of you, even though it got a bit heated. I'm not in the business of making enemies and I don't take speculative discussion with me to the bank. Everyone here is still fine in my book even if we disagree. I can respect everyone's views even if mine are different.

Night all!
 
Considering that the default is Metro, it's not really a Trojan Horse.

Now you're simply trying to make it sound sinister and evil.

I mainly meant its inclusion in the desktop version of Windows but you're right, it's more of a fundamental shift.

And I don't think Microsoft are evil. They want to make more money for apps and games developed on their system, I get that. However, I think it's wrong to restrict other people's access to your new platform by not allowing competition.
 
Win 8 is the Trojan Horse to get as many users as possible to use Metro.

But you don`t need to use metro obviously, and saying the masses will doesn't change that fact. If the masses find metro appealing, I guess you'll have to change human nature? It sounds like the idea of metro itself is what you can't stand, even though it's means and execution aren't what you make it out to be.
 
Clarification IS in my aforementioned wall of text, sir. The environment Metro creates will replace the desktop eventually. An OS for multiple devices is not something you do just for the hell of it. It introduces the new default for Windows-based devices. As stated earlier, people will adapt or fall behind. The more Metro is used, the farther back the desktop environment will become.

Right now, choice is an illusion. Building now will require migration at some point if you have a continuously updated product because hey "desktop... old busted!"

So essentially, your position is no different to Gabe, etc. Baseless speculation and fear mongering.
 
The problem with locking it is that they would get slapped silly at least from Europe on anti-trust suits. But do they need to lock it? No. As others have said it will just draw everyone into metro. But thats what they got slapped with anti-trust suits before from Europe concerning the IE explorer.
 
The problem with locking it is that they would get slapped silly at least from Europe on anti-trust suits. But do they need to lock it? No. As others have said it will just draw everyone into metro. But thats what they got slapped with anti-trust suits before from Europe concerning the IE explorer.

There's a severe lack of baseless speculation and fear mongering in this post.

On a more serious note, you're absolutely right, which is why it's very hard to take most claims in here seriously.
 
That's incredibly misleading, every version of Windows 8 runs desktop apps.

What you're thinking of is Windows RT which is only sold on ARM tablets. You cannot buy a license for this, it only comes on specific tablets.

Windows RT is a version of Windows 8 according to Microsoft.
 
You're right. It never happened. Fedora didn't cough up the cash to be compliant with ARM. The first stage of its bootloader is signed with an MS key... purchased from MS. Yep, it's blocked unless you have a key ;)

Care to spread any more misinformation?

The one who is spreading misinformation is you.

You keep bringing up the UEFI bootloader security as evidence of your accusations. Its completely unrelated. The logic just doesn't work. Even Linus Torvalds was cool with it. And what does it matter who signed the key anyway? Do Linux users somehow feel tainted because MS has to approve them? And would some 3rd party being in charge of it change anything?

Its good to hear you have respect for a differing points of view, but unfortunately, I can't respect yours at all. What you and most of the anti-Windows 8 folk are saying has no basis in fact or even logic. As Speedymanic said, it's baseless speculation and fear mongering.

Don't take this as a form of disrespect for you or something, but now matter how I look at what you're saying, its all just flat wrong.
 
Is it that hard for MS to add 1 or 2 "freely allocated by user" spaces on Metro to allow the use of third-party platforms (Steam etc...).

I mean, those platforms are part of why Windows has some success for gamers, It doesn't seems to be a good call in the Long-term if those actors were to drop the OS.
 
I honestly don't think Metro will be the huge success people think it'll be.


Not everything Microsoft touches turns to gold, you know. It's not easy to create a competitive and widely-used storefront out of nothing, even if you have a premier distribution channel placement.

How's GFWL doing these days? What about the Chrome Web Store? living in the margins
 
Is it that hard for MS to add 1 or 2 "freely allocated by user" spaces on Metro to allow the use of third-party platforms (Steam etc...).

I mean, those platforms are part of why Windows has some success for gamers, It doesn't seems to be a good call in the Long-term if those actors were to drop the OS.

Why do people still think Steam won't be available on Windows 8? There are plenty of posts explaining why it would be.
 
Why do people still think Steam won't be available on Windows 8? There are plenty of posts explaining why it would be.

I think he means putting a Steam tile on the Metro interface? If not - Win 8 is normal Windows, you can install everything, use it like Win 7, all, everything, not limited in any way.
 
Why do people still think Steam won't be available on Windows 8? There are plenty of posts explaining why it would be.

Where in my post do I mention that I think Steam won't be available for Windows 8?

I'm referring to Metro and questionning the absence of freely allocated spaces for third-party apps on Metro, I do know that Steam is useable in Desktop mode.
 
I think he means putting a Steam tile on the Metro interface? If not - Win 8 is normal Windows, you can install everything, use it like Win 7, all, everything, not limited in any way.

Not a Steam tile, that's easy. A full-fledged Steam Metro app, one that you can buy and run games from.
 
If i'm understanding this correctly. The reason why everyone's upset, is because they think Microsoft is going to stop people from making programs?
 
If i'm understanding this correctly. The reason why everyone's upset, is because they think Microsoft is going to stop people from making programs?

1) Valve and Blizzard are all "we as a company won't be able to make as much money"
2) Everyone freaks out because Valve is already working on Linux, and everyone takes this as a sign that Valve is dropping one of the leading OS' in the world
3) Notch has a knee jerk reaction
4) Everyone freaks out because Notch made Minecraft
5) This thread exists

Add in a pinch of Corporate Conspiracy Theory and Anti-Business Rhetoric.
 
The funny thing is that no one freaked out when the App Store for Mac was out and how that made the system "less open".

Windows 8 will come out, people will get onboard and we will all forget about this.

Microsoft will not just suddenly decide to lock down the most popular OS in the world and lose their major advantage against OSX.
 
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