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[Odrion]

You're cute. Frankly, I don't let narrow-minded console wars bullshit skew my perspective on the workings of one of the biggest corporations in the world.

Console wars? Huh? Just from a product standpoint, what Microsoft did with the 360 is a cautionary tale on what that company will do with a closed platform in a market with low competition.

(Thanks for the cutie compliments. You're just a big ol' puppy yerself.

)

I honestly don't think Metro will be the huge success people think it'll be.

Maybe so, I can only hope.

 

[szaromir]

Buying a Steam app, lol.

With the amount of time people spend praising Steam and anything Valve makes I wouldn't be surprised they would gladly pay to have access to the store.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

Again, I don't understand why Noth would say this. Publishing a game on the Windows Market is FREE, nothing goes to Microsoft. Whereas on Steam, you have to pay royalties. Isn't this ideal for developers??

 

[alexandros]

If i'm understanding this correctly. The reason why everyone's upset, is because they think Microsoft is going to stop people from making programs?

I'll try to explain the situation as simply as I can but it's going to be a long post. Brace yourselves!

Right now, on Windows 7, anyone can made a Windows game and sell it through a multitude of ways. They can use Steam, Origin, GOG, Games for Windows Marketplace, Green Man Gaming or any other digital store. They can also do a retail release, or they can sell it directly from their website.

So this is the first important bit: Ability to sell a game whichever way you please.

Secondly, any game you make for Windows 7 wil be available to the entire W7 userbase. If you make a W7 game, anyone with that OS can run your game (assuming of course that their computer is up to par).

So, second important bit: Ability to target the whole Windows userbase with one product.

Now we come to Windows 8 and the inclusion of Metro, not just a different interface but essentially a separate platform within a platform. Why do I say that, you ask? It's because of the following fact:

Metro Apps (and games) do not work on anything else but Metro. If you want to create a Metro game, it will not work on the desktop, it will not work on Windows 7, it will not work on anything that doesn't have Metro on it. You will pracitically have to "port" it to these platforms.

So, first important W8 bit: Metro apps and games only work on Metro, so you can't target the whole Windows userbase with one product.

Let's look at distribution. I've made a metro game, how can I sell it? Can I submit it to Steam, or GOG, or Origin, or anywhere else other than the Windows Store? No. Can I sell it directly through my site? No. I can only sell it through the Windows Store.

So, second important W8 bit: Microsoft exclusively controls app/game distribution on Metro.

Of course people will say "so what? The desktop is still there, make a desktop app/game!". It's not that simple. Microsoft has divided the Windows experience into two separate parts: Metro (on Win 8 and Win RT) and desktop (on Win 8 and 7). They've also shown their preference on which one of they two they believe is the future of Windows.

Something like this has happened again in the past, when Windows replaced DOS. At first DOS was included in Windows and people still developed DOS apps (we called them programs back then), but Windows was the main interface and platform. After a few years DOS faded because everyone was using Windows apps and DOS development ceased.

Microsoft is going through the same transition, but this time they're not just replacing an aging OS with a newer one. They are trying to use this transition in order to gain more control or the OS and lock it down so that they can benefit from every app sold through Metro.

They are not going to discontinue the desktop any time soon because that would cause them a world of hurt with legal issues and anti-competition lawsuits. They just installed Metro as the main platform and they will simply wait until the desktop fades away to the point of irrelevance, since most people will only use the default interface and store.

Buying a Steam app, lol.

I never said anything about buying the app. It would be free of course, just as Steam is free now.

 

[Speedymanic]

Lol, what? Any time soon? Try never. The rest of your is post is baseless spec and unnecessarily hyperbolic.

 

[nasos_333]

I'll try to explain the situation as simply as I can but it's going to be a long post. Brace yourselves!

Right now, on Windows 7, anyone can made a Windows game and sell it through a multitude of ways. They can use Steam, Origin, GOG, Games for Windows Marketplace, Green Man Gaming or any other digital store. They can also do a retail release, or they can sell it directly from their website.

So this is the first important bit: Ability to sell a game whichever way you please.

Secondly, any game you make for Windows 7 wil be available to the entire W7 userbase. If you make a W7 game, anyone with that OS can run your game (assuming of course that their computer is up to par).

So, second important bit: Ability to target the whole Windows userbase with one product.

Now we come to Windows 8 and the inclusion of Metro, not just a different interface but essentially a separate platform within a platform. Why do I say that, you ask? It's because of the following fact:

Metro Apps (and games) do not work on anything else but Metro. If you want to create a Metro game, it will not work on the desktop, it will not work on Windows 7, it will not work on anything that doesn't have Metro on it. You will pracitically have to "port" it to these platforms.

So, first important W8 bit: Metro apps and games only work on Metro, so you can't target the whole Windows userbase with one product.

Let's look at distribution. I've made a metro game, how can I sell it? Can I submit it to Steam, or GOG, or Origin, or anywhere else other than the Windows Store? No. Can I sell it directly through my site? No. I can only sell it through the Windows Store.

So, second important W8 bit: Microsoft exclusively controls app/game distribution on Metro.

Of course people will say "so what? The desktop is still there, make a desktop app/game!". It's not that simple. Microsoft has divided the Windows experience into two separate parts: Metro (on Win 8 and Win RT) and desktop (on Win 8 and 7). They've also shown their preference on which one of they two they believe is the future of Windows.

Something like this has happened again in the past, when Windows replaced DOS. At first DOS was included in Windows and people still developed DOS apps (we called them programs back then), but Windows was the main interface and platform. After a few years DOS faded because everyone was using Windows apps and DOS development ceased.

Microsoft is going through the same transition, but this time they're not just replacing an aging OS with a newer one. They are trying to use this transition in order to gain more control or the OS and lock it down so that they can benefit from every app sold through Metro.

They are not going to discontinue the desktop any time soon because that would cause them a world of hurt with legal issues and anti-competition lawsuits. They just installed Metro as the main platform and they will simply wait until the desktop fades away to the point of irrelevance, since most people will only use the default interface and store.

I never said anything about buying the app. It would be free of course, just as Steam is free now.

But then most apps/games wont run on older versions of the OS, so having some that run only on Windows 8 is not somehting that has never happened before

This is the new way to integrade all platforms

Also Metro is just an interface, i doubt will be so hard to port an app/game outside Metro, all gamesa/apps still use C++ and DirectX

The lack of XNA support is a huge drawback though for indies, C++ coding is so terrible

 

[wutwutwut]

Again, I don't understand why Noth would say this. Publishing a game on the Windows Market is FREE, nothing goes to Microsoft. Whereas on Steam, you have to pay royalties. Isn't this ideal for developers??

It is not free. Where in the world did you get this idea in your head?

 

[wutwutwut]

Then you're greatly lacking in imagination.

Ms releases DirectX12. To develop a DirectX12 game (the only version supported on Xbox 8) you need Visual Studio 2013. VS13 can not create "legacy" binaries for pre-Metro. Done.

(By the way, this is almost exactly what happened with VS12 and Windows XP compatibility)

And what they tried to do with VC11 Express before the huge outcry about it. That was when I knew Microsoft wants to shit all over the desktop.

 

[Haunted]

1) Valve and Blizzard are all "we as a company won't be able to make as much money"
2) Everyone freaks out because Valve is already working on Linux, and everyone takes this as a sign that Valve is dropping one of the leading OS' in the world
3) Notch has a knee jerk reaction
4) Everyone freaks out because Notch made Minecraft
5) This thread exists

Add in a pinch of Corporate Conspiracy Theory and Anti-Business Rhetoric.

I don't think that's a good summary at all, to be honest.


People fear that Microsoft's attempt to control the new default Windows interface might lead to less people using the underlying desktop function (where the freedom of the PC platform can work its magic).

Of course people will say "so what? The desktop is still there, make a desktop app/game!". It's not that simple. Microsoft has divided the Windows experience into two separate parts: Metro (on Win 8 and Win RT) and desktop (on Win 8 and 7). They've also shown their preference on which one of they two they believe is the future of Windows.

Something like this has happened again in the past, when Windows replaced DOS. At first DOS was included in Windows and people still developed DOS apps (we called them programs back then), but Windows was the main interface and platform. After a few years DOS faded because everyone was using Windows apps and DOS development ceased.

Microsoft is going through the same transition, but this time they're not just replacing an aging OS with a newer one. They are trying to use this transition in order to gain more control or the OS and lock it down so that they can benefit from every app sold through Metro.

They are not going to discontinue the desktop any time soon because that would cause them a world of hurt with legal issues and anti-competition lawsuits. They just installed Metro as the main platform and they will simply wait until the desktop fades away to the point of irrelevance, since most people will only use the default interface and store.

I never said anything about buying the app. It would be free of course, just as Steam is free now.

While I can absolutely see where you're coming from, I doubt that the desktop infrastructure will fade like you say and people will unanimously switch to Metro like that. It's a different situation compared to the DOS -> Windows progression. Metro is very much an additional interface (at least for now). Who knows what'll happen in 5-7 years when the next Windows hits, though.

 

[brotkasten]

...


Let's look at distribution. I've made a metro game, how can I sell it? Can I submit it to Steam, or GOG, or Origin, or anywhere else other than the Windows Store? No. Can I sell it directly through my site? No. I can only sell it through the Windows Store.

So, second important W8 bit: Microsoft exclusively controls app/game distribution on Metro.

...

Choice is always better, I'm all for choice and options. But excuse my ignorance, because I don't see how the limitation to sell apps only on the Windows Store is a bad thing for developers. You're saying that being able to sell your game on GMG, Origin and Steam at the same time is great, because you can reach more customers. But isn't it more likely that the Windows 8 userbase will be bigger than the Steam, GMG, Origin and GFWL (lol) userbase combined? So by putting a game on the Windows Store, I can have way more potential customers than ever before, even if Windows 8 should bomb like Vista.

 

[itxaka]

Nope.


I really don't know why they have these concerns ...

Because it's Microsoft we are talking here. They have an history of enforcing things down our throats thanks to their monopoly on PCs.

 

[aeolist]

Valve, Blizzard, and Mojang are definitely on par with Microsoft as far as historical patterns of evil behavior go and people are right to be skeptical of the their statements.

 

[Zabka]

If Microsoft packaged a live brown recluse spider in each Windows 8 box then that could be very dangerous.

 

[Haunted]

Valve, Blizzard, and Mojang are definitely on par with Microsoft as far as historical patterns of evil behavior go and people are right to be skeptical of the their statements.

Well, at least Blizzard's trying to get there since Activision took over.

 

[alexandros]

Choice is always better, I'm all for choice and options. But excuse my ignorance, because I don't see how the limitation to sell apps only on the Windows Store is a bad thing for developers. You're saying that being able to sell your game on GMG, Origin and Steam at the same time is great, because you can reach more customers. But isn't it more likely that the Windows 8 userbase will be bigger than the Steam, GMG, Origin and GFWL (lol) userbase combined? So by putting a game on the Windows Store, I can have way more potential customers than ever before, even if Windows 8 should bomb like Vista.

Developers should be able to put the game on the Windows Store in addition to all the other services, so that competition can work properly. If Microsoft finds itself as the sole distributor for Windows apps and games, they will be free to dicate any terms they please and developers would have to accept them because they would have no other choice. I think they would be wise to avoid that.

 

[itxaka]

Choice is always better, I'm all for choice and options. But excuse my ignorance, because I don't see how the limitation to sell apps only on the Windows Store is a bad thing for developers. You're saying that being able to sell your game on GMG, Origin and Steam at the same time is great, because you can reach more customers. But isn't it more likely that the Windows 8 userbase will be bigger than the Steam, GMG, Origin and GFWL (lol) userbase combined? So by putting a game on the Windows Store, I can have way more potential customers than ever before, even if Windows 8 should bomb like Vista.

Well in that example, every store has it's perks so the customer can choose the ones that fit him. Do you prefer cloud saves and steam overlay? Go to steam and by the witcher 2. Do you prefer DRM free and no extra software on top of it? Get the witcher 2 from GOG.

With just one store you have to bend over to whatever that store is offering you and suck it up. Same for developers, they have to submit to the store limitations.

Plus different stores gives us competition and innovation, monopolies only bring stagnation.

 

[diamount]

Valve, Blizzard, and Mojang are definitely on par with Microsoft as far as historical patterns of evil behavior go and people are right to be skeptical of the their statements.

Yep, it's all about money to them.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

It is not free. Where in the world did you get this idea in your head?

The BUILD conference or Computex (don't remember), Mike Angiulo (or something) mentionned it. I'm talking about the Windows 8 Market, not GFWL.

 

[SparkTR]

Choice is always better, I'm all for choice and options. But excuse my ignorance, because I don't see how the limitation to sell apps only on the Windows Store is a bad thing for developers. You're saying that being able to sell your game on GMG, Origin and Steam at the same time is great, because you can reach more customers. But isn't it more likely that the Windows 8 userbase will be bigger than the Steam, GMG, Origin and GFWL (lol) userbase combined? So by putting a game on the Windows Store, I can have way more potential customers than ever before, even if Windows 8 should bomb like Vista.

The only reason we have awesome sales and pre-order deals for digital games is because of competition fueled by competing services. To the consumer would the PC platform still be desirable if all that competition went away? I could argue that lower game prices and sales are a primary reason why PC gaming is seeing a resurgence, without them I'd say it would regress. With that in mind the userbase might be bigger, but not necessarily the gamer population.

 

[fanboi]

Notchs comment is speculation from his side (and if they come true we should all be concerned), just like majority of GAF.

Time will tell though.

 

[brotkasten]

Well in that example, every store has it's perks so the customer can choose the ones that fit him. Do you prefer cloud saves and steam overlay? Go to steam and by the witcher 2. Do you prefer DRM free and no extra software on top of it? Get the witcher 2 from GOG.

With just one store you have to bend over to whatever that store is offering you and suck it up. Same for developers, they have to submit to the store limitations.

Plus different stores gives us competition and innovation, monopolies only bring stagnation.

Alexandros and I were talking purely the developer here (I think?). Of course it's much better for the consumer to have multiple competing stores where you can buy your games from. We'll never see a Steam-like Summer Sale on the Windows Store.

But a userbase that goes in the hundred of millions, with an 80% cut for the developer, should the game be somewhat successful (make $25k and MS cuts their share from 30% back to 20%), still seems more interesting for developers than giving their customers a choice.

e: All that said, I don't even know if WinRT allows full-blown games like Assassin's Creed or CoD in its current iteration.

 

[dragonelite]

Alexandros and I were talking purely the developer here (I think?). Of course it's much better for the consumer to have multiple competing stores where you can buy your games from. We'll never see a Steam-like Summer Sale on the Windows Store.

But a userbase that goes in the hundred of millions, with an 80% cut for the developer, should the game be somewhat successful (make $25k and MS cuts their share from 30% back to 20%), still seems more interesting for developers than giving their customers a choice.

e: All that said, I don't even know if WinRT allows full-blown games like Assassin's Creed or CoD in its current iteration.

The cutback to 20% is really interesting as a CS student i probably wont make a app that popular but who knew DrawSomething and Instagram would become that big.

Or i could just make a desktop app and claim 100%.
Did i miss something?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

More baseless, whiny, speculation from someone scared that there's another avenue to compete with.

At least Notch has more cred that Fanged Fat Hipster Boy.

 

[wutwutwut]

The BUILD conference or Computex (don't remember), Mike Angiulo (or something) mentionned it. I'm talking about the Windows 8 Market, not GFWL.

Well, it's not.

 

[Damon Bennet]

If you worry about not reaching everyone, make a metro version for the store and a regular version for gog, steam, whatevs.

boom you just reached everyone.

 

[Palette Swap]

If Microsoft packaged a live brown recluse spider in each Windows 8 box then that could be very dangerous.

That's something I'd kickstart.

 

[Krilekk]

Dev A: "OMG App Store is so awesome. And they only take 30 % of our revenue. <3 Apple!"

Dev A: "OMG the Android Store is so great. And for just 30 %. <3 Google!"

Dev A: "OMG Windows 8 store is gonna suck. They actually want to take 30 % of our revenue. Hate Micro$oft."

That's pretty much how it works.

 

[Damon Bennet]

Dev A: "OMG App Store is so awesome. And they only take 30 % of our revenue. <3 Apple!"

Dev A: "OMG the Android Store is so great. And for just 30 %. <3 Google!"

Dev A: "OMG Windows 8 store is gonna suck. They actually want to take 30 % of our revenue. Hate Micro$oft."

That's pretty much how it works.

especially weird that OSX is already more locked down than windows 8. You have to actively enable the functionality to install programms from unknwon sources, while windows 8 is as liberal as always.

 

[KageMaru]

no. Microsoft is also having an app store. The way they are trying to get people to put stuff on there is by taking less once something sells over $20,000 (Normal would be 30% and after 20k it will be 20%).

No, how would i plat the witcher 2 i bought this steam sale, or bf 3 i bought via origin they all run on win 8.

Thanks for the answers you two. If it's not locked down in any way, then I don't see the issue. Maybe they don't want to compete with the Windows store since it will be readily advertised/shown to all Windows 8 users?

 

[Chev]

Also Metro is just an interface, i doubt will be so hard to port an app/game outside Metro, all gamesa/apps still use C++ and DirectX

There's a lot of subtle changes to the API that make it tricky to support both versions, and Visual Studio 11 express doesn't even support non-metro apps, so it's not looking too promising.

 

[itxaka]

Dev A: "OMG App Store is so awesome. And they only take 30 % of our revenue. <3 Apple!"

Dev A: "OMG the Android Store is so great. And for just 30 %. <3 Google!"

Dev A: "OMG Windows 8 store is gonna suck. They actually want to take 30 % of our revenue. Hate Micro$oft."

That's pretty much how it works.

Closed platforms with no monopoly versus" open platform" with a monopoly.

Not the same thus the reactions aren't the same.

 

[jrDev]

So is this OS gonna cost me $200+ also?

 

[Damon Bennet]

So is this OS gonna cost me $200+ also?

$40 if you upgrade

 

[Angry Fork]

Nope.


I really don't know why they have these concerns ...

Because it's Microsoft?

 

[brotkasten]

So is this OS gonna cost me $200+ also?

The upgrade is $39.99 (limited offer, ends in January) and the system builder version will probably be around $100 again.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I'm literally clapping in front of my computer right now. Well said!

YEAR OF THE LINUX

 

[alexandros]

Hey, stranger things have happened.

 

[Zizbuka]

is this so hard to grasp?

microsoft has a store that only runs metro apps (no other stores).

microsoft still has the desktop, which is better than in windows 7. Open as always.


If people are scared of a competing app-store ok. But predicting that windows 8 will be bad for gamers is so shortsighted.

What makes the desktop better than 7? Serious question. Everything I've seen says it's missing features; no Start menu, etc. How would that be better?

I'm blown away by the people supporting Windows 8. I don't have an informed opinion either way, but I thought for sure a couple of weeks ago everyone hated it.

 

[Team Filler]

Oh please, it's so easy to see right through your biases. To use your own words...

Why are people okay with apple and steam taking 30% but Microsoft doing it is somehow excessive?

Of course I'm biased, I will make no illusions about it. Over the years, Valve's way of doing business has built up a lot of trust from me, to the point that I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt when they do make a misstep, and assuming that Valve as a company continue to do business as they have, that trust remains intact.

Microsoft has a storied history of leveraging their dominant position to push out competition and further cement their dominance by way of unethical practices in lieu of simply letting the marketplace decide.

Do I hope that MS has created Metro to simply expand what Windows offers to users? Yes. Would I be surprised if Microsoft is using their position, being the sole producer of the singularly dominant OS for desktop computers in the world, to push Metro as the foundation for future installments of Windows to become a completely closed ecosystem that Microsoft controls exclusively? I wouldn't be surprised, not at all.

 

[Talon]

Doesn't seem like iOS has been terrible for indie game developers. If anything, it made people less reticent to pay and take a chance.

 

[Delusibeta]

especially weird that OSX is already more locked down than windows 8. You have to actively enable the functionality to install programms from unknwon sources, while windows 8 is as liberal as always.

I'll be willing to bet money that Microsoft will add that "feature" in Service Pack 1.

 

[dragonelite]

What makes the desktop better than 7? Serious question. Everything I've seen says it's missing features; no Start menu, etc. How would that be better?

I'm blown away by the people supporting Windows 8. I don't have an informed opinion either way, but I thought for sure a couple of weeks ago everyone hated it.

I really wonder what are people using the startbutton for?
I found back most functionality back of the start button back in win8 and much more.

Just hope in the release they make the shutdown button less hidden.
Hell the only time im in metro is the moment i log in then im never in it.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

What makes the desktop better than 7? Serious question. Everything I've seen says it's missing features; no Start menu, etc. How would that be better?

The start menu is, as far as I'm aware, the only missing feature. But I think Metro is a more than adequate replacement (still click and type to instantly search, open all your programs etc) though some people are rightfully bothered by some things (unnecessarily full screen, segmented search). But the desktop itself has numerous improvements. Aside from increased performance and faster booting, the file management system and dialogue has had a much needed and welcome make over as well as a new task manager and better multi monitor support. I like a lot of the context sensitive explorer commands via the optional ribbon and ISO mount support is great too.

I've been using Windows 8 for a few months now spending 99% of my time in the desktop and the desktop experience is undoubtedly better. It's easy to avoid Metro, I've not once been thrown into it accidentally and the few times I need to use it hasn't really impacted my functionality. Plus Metro does have some benefits to desktop users, for example I sometimes have a metro twitter client open to the left of the desktop (example) and it can be useful going forward with notifications, such as the eBay app creating a pop up on the desktop telling me if I've been outbid. I'm not commenting on concerns with regards to how Metro and the store might evolve in future version of Windows, but Windows 8 as it stands right now is great IMO.

 

[Damon Bennet]

What makes the desktop better than 7? Serious question. Everything I've seen says it's missing features; no Start menu, etc. How would that be better?

I'm blown away by the people supporting Windows 8. I don't have an informed opinion either way, but I thought for sure a couple of weeks ago everyone hated it.

For once it is much powerful under the hood. Windows 8 boots in under 10 seconds, uses less ram and is all in all more efficient than any other windows.

The "missing" features are not missing in that sense. They are found in other places, and it might need a little time to get used to the new paradigm - that is probably where all the hate comes from, people hate change. But for example the new task manager is much better, then you have a lot of neat new functionality like starting over with your windows, but keeping all your files etc.

You have to think of it more like windows 7+ that also incorporates the cloud. You write something in office? Open it later on a different machine with your microsoft log in and you can start where you left. pretty cool.

On a sidenote, maybe some did not see it but
I always liked this ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5pFkNQ7no

 

[Azih]

What makes the desktop better than 7? Serious question.

Faster start up time. Ridiculously better file copy/paste functionality. Ability to mount isos out of the box.

I'm blown away by the people supporting Windows 8. I don't have an informed opinion either way, but I thought for sure a couple of weeks ago everyone hated it.

I'm on windows 8 release preview and I really really like it. It's a better OS than Windows 7. I use Metro for hotmail, facebook, IM, weather, and use the desktop for everything else.

 

[Sysgen]

They locked out DirectX 10 and 11 out of XP. Do the math, it isn't that hard to project once you know that Metro apps can only be sold through the Windows app store.

 

[Stewox]

Faster start up time. Ridiculously better file copy/paste functionality. Ability to mount isos out of the box.


I'm on windows 8 release preview and I really really like it. It's a better OS than Windows 7. I use Metro for hotmail, facebook, IM, weather, and use the desktop for everything else.

I'm not going to win8 til i test it and replicate every reg tweak i have in win7, microsoft purposelly hampers reg tweaks for modifiying UI functionality in newer versions.

I am for the core of the system only, stability and performance, all those shiny things on top don't matter as I will disable most of them, there are tons of programs that will do stuff way better than MS

See TeraCopy if we're mentioning it.

Also startup time depends on drivers as well, GPU ones add the most, but we'll see how win8 supposably improved this.

10 seconds on what ?, i have my win7x64 logged in and working in 15 seconds from shutdown with Crucial M4 128 GB SSD

 

[KernelPanic]

While I can absolutely see where you're coming from, I doubt that the desktop infrastructure will fade like you say and people will unanimously switch to Metro like that. It's a different situation compared to the DOS -> Windows progression. Metro is very much an additional interface (at least for now). Who knows what'll happen in 5-7 years when the next Windows hits, though.

Windows WAS just an additional interface to DOS though. Over time developers starting making more native Windows games and less for DOS. In the meantime Microsoft slowly stripped out DOS from Windows altogether.

The concern is that Metro and the Desktop will follow a similar path (history never fails to repeat itself).

Microsoft's original decision on VS Express (which they later reversed due to uproar) tells you which way they would like to go.

 

[Zabka]

I'm not going to win8 til i test it and replicate every tweak i have in win7.

I am for the core of the system only, all those things on top don't matter, there are tons of programs that will do stuff way better than MS

See TeraCopy if we're mentioning it.

Also startup time depends on drivers as well, GPU ones add the most, but we'll see how win8 supposably improved this.

10 seconds on what ?, i have my win7x64 logged in and working in 15 seconds from shutdown with Crucial M4 128 GB SSD

You should check this out.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ement-basics-copy-move-rename-and-delete.aspx

 

[Azih]

Stewox Windows 8 uses less resources and runs less processes for the base OS than Windows 7. So for the same hardware setup Windows 8 should boot faster than Windows 7.