They don't charge anyone anything for selling software on their platform. They are nothing like a government because they aren't taxing valve or anyone selling software on their platform. Of course I know they charge people for windows. Do you really think I don't know this or are you trying to be a smart ass?
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Notch: Windows 8 could be "very, very bad for indie developers"
- Thread starter onQ123
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They don't charge anyone anything for selling software on their platform. They are nothing like a government because they aren't taxing valve or anyone selling software on their platform. Of course I know they charge people for windows. Do you really think I don't know this or are you trying to be a smart ass?
xemumanic
Member
That's the problem! They keep talking like it is!
It's like arguing with a wall. All these assumptions are factually wrong. It's amazing there's even a thread this long here and other places on the Internet about something that just isn't the case........at all.
AFAIK the store will only open for individual (non-company) accounts after release.
I Stalk Alone
Member
Coming from xp user here, windows 8 is very similar except for metro which I don't really use much since I have already customised windows 8 to the way I like it but I do see it being useful especially for touch screens. Windows 8 is much faster than xp and windows 7 and has more information about the system at the tip of your fingers so you know if something is up or if there may be a slight performance issue. I have been using it for only a couple of days but I like it already. At least all my programs still work for Win7 and xp. I only see metro very rarely so I don't see why so many people are crying over it. Stick with windows 7 if you want but if you are on xp windows 8 is a good update for next year as in 2014 xp will have no more support. I probably will not upgrade to windows 8 until the end of January though once I have a better clue of what my next hardware upgrade will be but will stick with this preview and learn the ins and outs. At least it didn't increase ram usage too much over windows 7 and steam works fine. That $39 upgrade offer is also a bargain.
MS makes money by selling windows, and products that run on windows (such as Office). The reason people buy these products, is because they use windows on their PCs. And the reason they do that, is because they have other non-MS related products that they use, despite not buying these from MS (we know this, because MS haven't begun packaging exclusive stores in their OS'es yet).
Are you arguing that all windows-compatible software currently being sold is completely irrelevant to microsoft (doesn't benefit them in any way), since they don't get a cut?
ZombieSupaStar
Member
I wish the desktop part would auto start at login, I hardly ever use my start menu anyways, so seeing a big ass cumbersome version of it on every log in will be annoying.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Maybe if these industry leaders actually specified in greater detail what the issue is, there would less random posters questioning it.
Interesting, I didn't actually know that limitation.
Notch has clarified his statements on twitter. He said his only issue is with the Store and he likes everything else about Windows 8. He has a similar issue with Steam, which is why Minecraft never appeared on it.
alexandros
Banned
They have already specified their issues, but those random posters refuse to see them for their own reasons.
Speedymanic
Banned
What was Gabe's specific issue with Win 8? What about Blizzard's?
Only Notch seems to have stated a specific reasons, the others have been vague. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
I want Windows 8 without
I intend to set my user account to auto log in and launch the desktop. This should be trivial to do.
I may or may not install some 3rd party start menu replacement.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
you know, there's a huge chunk of middleground between 'doing what you've always done and failing' and 'compulsorily forcing unwanted aspects on existing customers'.
Could Windows 8 be split into two platforms, one for touchscreen devices and one for desktops?
Yes of course it fucking can.
Are Microsoft trying to leverage their desktop monopoly by integrating all devices into one OS?
You're an idiot if you don't think so.
Would two separate OSes, each tailor designed to the platform it is running on, provide a better experience on each platform than a 'one size fits all solution' that is a jack of all trades and master of none, inevitably providing a sub-optimal experience for each platform than a dedicated solution?
Gee, I dunno.
There are a lot of different ways MS could have chosen to compete.
They chose a method on the shitty for end users end of the spectrum.
If people are going to speak out about that - important influential PC gaming people, not just open source neckbeards who substitute a dollar sign for an s in every post - it's their own damn fault for choosing to compete that way, instead of trying to offer value the competition can't.
EDIT:
It's the same deal with buying temporary exclusivity on things like COD mappacks;
- one end of the spectrum is spending money to deny others something for a short time
- the other end of the spectrum is spending money to improve things (like, for example, making that DLC free to all 360 owners 6 months down the line as 'sponsored by MS' content).
One way is shitty for the competition, the other way is a boon to your customers.
MS just like the 'be shitty to your competitors' angle more than the 'be awesome to your customers' one.
brotkasten
Member
What are your problems with Windows 8 on a tablet? What is it that needs to be better? I'm just curious, because it's been a while since I used it.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I admittedly don't own a tablet, but I cannot believe a halfway house solution can be anything other than suboptimal.
TheGreyHulk
Member
They're too paranoid. Microsoft is not going to be locking down Windows 8 x86.
I can only see them locking down the Windows RT (ARM) version of windows which would be no different that what Apple is doing with their iPad.
Windows for x86 CPUs will not be locked down and indies will be fine.
I can only see them locking down the Windows RT (ARM) version of windows which would be no different that what Apple is doing with their iPad.
Windows for x86 CPUs will not be locked down and indies will be fine.
brotkasten
Member
In March, The Verge did a comparison with the iPad, feature by feature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHcxMKDKCiU
The Windows 8 build is pretty old, but you can see how it works.
It's actually fun to use Windows 8 with touch.
You people are talking about a "halfway solution". Do you realize the future of tablets is to replace home computers by docking them once you're at home/work?
Do you really want to have an os fully oriented "IOS-style" or do you still want to have a desktop available at work and at home when you're not carrying your tablet but working/playing seriously on it instead?
I really don't understand why people complain about that, the ultimate goal is the fusion of home computers and tablets. It seems so logical to have an hybrid system. And that's exactly what Apple wants to do too, but they aren't ready yet.
Do you really want to have an os fully oriented "IOS-style" or do you still want to have a desktop available at work and at home when you're not carrying your tablet but working/playing seriously on it instead?
I really don't understand why people complain about that, the ultimate goal is the fusion of home computers and tablets. It seems so logical to have an hybrid system. And that's exactly what Apple wants to do too, but they aren't ready yet.
brotkasten
Member
The problem is that Metro, as it is right now, is not feature complete. So even when you have a touch only device, you still need desktop parts of the OS for some settings. That's not an optimal solution.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I'm not saying Win8 isn't usable as either a desktop or a tablet solution; I'm saying a design dedicated to one or the other would be superior and not have to make compromises.
Yes.
I use a computer intensively as part of my dayjob, I need to multitask in a lot of apps, both CPU / GPU power is important to me, as is screenspace.
I also game on my PC.
You (and MS, apparently) might think 'fuck desktops, tablets are THE SHIZNIT', but that does not make it an inevitable future.
For people who only need to read the odd word doc, skim a power point presentation, do a little web browsing and send a few emails while lounging in a starbucks sipping on a skinny frappucino, I'm sure the 'tablet only future' looks wonderful.
For people who use computers intensively, not so much.
Yes.
I use a computer intensively as part of my dayjob, I need to multitask in a lot of apps, both CPU / GPU power is important to me, as is screenspace.
I also game on my PC.
You (and MS, apparently) might think 'fuck desktops, tablets are THE SHIZNIT', but that does not make it an inevitable future.
For people who only need to read the odd word doc, skim a power point presentation, do a little web browsing and send a few emails while lounging in a starbucks sipping on a skinny frappucino, I'm sure the 'tablet only future' looks wonderful.
For people who use computers intensively, not so much.
Yeah, it is so strange they didn't get that in. The first time someone has to go to the desktop to add a folder to the pictures library using a Windows RT device, they will go WTF?!?!
Totally agree with you about that, but it's just the beginning, there's not competition yet. Apple will adopt it, and Linux will follow soon afterwards. It's going to be very interesting.
It does. Project yourself in the future, and stop thinking 2012. Hardware is becoming more and more obsolete with online storage, cloud gaming, etc. And tablets, as well as phones, become more and more powerful. Just look at the recent hardware in the ipads, iphones, the retina displays, etc. Imagine in 5, 10 years.
People have a problem with that, because they don't want to change their old habits, and don't try/want to project themselves in the future and see the potential evolutions they could benefit from. These are my 2 cents, but I'm very interested about the whole tablet/home computer hybridization.
You buy one powerful tablet, and you can use it for everything, with multiple environments (desktop, metro/ios, etc.) to suit your needs. I love the concept.
alexandros
Banned
You only have to do the bare minimum of research if you're actually interested in Newell's point of view. The same goes for everyone that keeps asking that same question. So this begs the question, do people really want to know the cause for Newell's concern, or are they just upset that he "insulted" their favorite company this time?
Here then, take a look at the main problem that's bugging Gabe Newell:
http://www.vg247.com/2011/10/12/newell-dobs-in-apple-for-ominous-trend-of-closed-platforms/
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Sorry, Moores law, thermal envelopes, the physical size people are prepared to carry, and other laws of physics all constrain the actual limits of what is possible now, what is theoretically possible in the future, and what will ever be possible outside of significant technological paradigm shifts (such as say, cold fusion reactors solving the battery issue, holography solving the physical screen size issue, antigravity solving the weight issue, tesseracts solving the size issue, einstein-rosen bridges solving the speed of light issue and letting you use a pad as a dumb terminal to a super computer, etc).
It's cool and all to dream about Star Trek, but for a lot of tech jobs, an actual computer is always going to need to be in the equation, with a nice big screen to multitask on.
We're talking about the guy who's experiencing ideas of a steam box, which would basically be a hardware running steam, a totally closed environment? This guy can't be taken seriously. He has a monopoly, and doesn't seem to enjoy a new competitive environment. That's what the big deal is for Valve. And the public would never migrate to Linux to use steam, they'd prefer sticking with the microsoft store if it's attractive, and Valve would have serious troubles.
Not for 99% of people. And I have been talking about docking stations. Don't tell me you don't know what a docking station is.
I'm not arguing that at all. You over complicating this. MS is the one that created windows and maintains it. They don't make anything off of companies selling their own software. But now they are seeing companies like Valve making bank off of other companies by getting a cut of anything sold through the steam store. It only makes sense that MS would eventually come out with their own PC store.
They aren't scared of MS locking down anything. In reality these guys are scared of the competition. They are just pushing this freedom argument to rile up the general public. They wouldn't get the same support if they came out and said MS store is unfair to their bottom line. But when you start talking about freedom in regards to a person's PC you will get people riled up. That's what these guys are doing. If they cared about freedom they would have put support behind Linux 17 years ago when others were pushing for serious Linux support. These guys were content to make their money in the e market and let MS take care of the OS. Now that MS wants to compete in the e market these guys talking about freedom and what not.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Well I'd love to know where you get that 99% figure (that isn't purely anecdotal) due to the - likely to increase - corporate sectors where information security isn't going to let employees wander freely around carrying trade secrets and databases on their hipster pads on insecure networks.
And if by 'docking station' you don't mean 'a real computer to do the necessary grunt work for a lot of jobs' then you're still ignoring the laws of physics.
alexandros
Banned
Thank you for proving my point. Let's go back to the article that brought the news (or rumours) about the Steambox:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/04/valve-rumoured-to-be-making-steam-box-console/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/03/rumor-valve-potentially-working-on-a-steam-box-console-with-partners/
So, let's see this "totally closed environment":
- Hardware that can be made by a variety of partners
-"The center of an open gaming universe"
- "The devices will be able to run any standard PC titles, and will also allow for rival gaming services (like EAs Origin) to be loaded up.
Oh my God! That Newell is truly evil! He (alledgedly) wants his company to create a platform where anyone can build the hardware and any business rival can open up shop and compete with the platform creator! That monster!
One version of Windows 8 (Windows 8 RT) which runs on ARM processors for mobile devices (like tablets) will have a store and will be locked down like Apple, where you can only install apps from the app store unless you jailbreak your iPhone/iPad.
They are afraid that Microsoft is moving in this direction and that eventually only allow approved apps on the store to be installed in Windows (even desktop versions).
It's all hypothetical at this point.
Hipster pads? Sigh. You must think the millions and millions of people buying iPads are all just terrible people.
Sure, if you think half the world population needs raw computing power at work they maybe you're right.
Good then, I don't buy it but fine. Then what's their problem with the Microsoft store, since they happen to enjoy competition so much that they would welcome it on their own physical supports.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
No, I think they're using them for recreational computer use; email, facebook, web browsing.
People dealing with governmental, financial, military, criminal or any form of high level corporate or commercial secret data aren't doing it on a fucking iPad.
They're dealing with it on a secure network, on a traditional desktop that never leaves the building, and has its hard drives forensically scrubbed before being scrapped.
EDIT:
Oh, so you downgraded your 99% estimate to a 50% estimate? Cool.
Tell me more about 50% of the worlds population (so; China and Africa) all docking their tablets when they get home or telecommuting from a starbucks.
Delusibeta
Banned
I'll give that policy 24 months. They will eventually charge the industry standard 30% per sale, that's kinda the whole point of closed systems.
Neither Valve nor Mojang even existed 17 years ago. Hell, Google didn't even exist 17 years ago. How were those two supposed to stop Windows Domination when neither company existed back then? As for Blizzard, the Blizzard of that era made mostly console games, and the beginnings of their computer business supported Windows and Mac equally. It'd be like saying Bungie shouldn't have made Marathon exclusive mostly to Mac when Microsoft would just buy their company and own the rights to Halo. Bungie was a Mac developer that just got bought out by Microsoft when they needed first-party games for their OG Xbox.
alexandros
Banned
It's not the store per se that has them worried. It's the fact that Microsoft doesn't allow competing app stores within Metro.
Look, I'm not gonna argue with you, I think you totally miss my point. Most of home users /workers don't require and insane amount of computing power, assuming the contrary is silly. And what a "ipad" or whatever else actually provides is a good start to satisfy those needs.
If you you need more, well, you just need an internet connection, access a server remotely, and there you have it, the computing power you need to run the stuffs you wanna work on. And I think you already know about all those things, so I really don't get your point.
If you think the actual market will never change, good for you. We'll bump this thread in 10 years time and see who was right about that whole thing.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Right, and that is hampered by the physical speed at which electricity can move and data can be transmitted (which is slower than local processing).
Do I think tablets sell? Yes of course I do.
Do I think tablets will be capable of, say, the resolution and complexity of a top of the range PC game today in 5 years time? No, not without a major technology paradigm shift.
You obviously do.
Do I think tablets can replace the PC for anyone using computers as an integral part of their worklife? No, I absolutely do not.
You obviously do.
How about laptops? Aren't laptops powerful enough to be desktop replacements for a lot of high power requirements (like mid range to high end gaming) right now?
The reason the Surface demo started blowing the socks off people as soon as they plopped on the keyboard is it communicates the concept of a tablet that's basically got powerful laptop innards (i.e Intel not ARM) running a touch OS when undocked and running a desktop when docked. That's going to be the Surface Pro, new Asus transformers etc. The hybrid market that sits between the tablet market and the laptop.
That's most of the consumer market covered surely.
For enterprise computing you're going to be logging in to a server to do your work anyway (putty terminal, VM etc.).
No they are not.
Why are you quoting the link I quoted you right back at me? Why don't you read your own link and the comments on it for a change?
Yeah, it's free outside of how much it costs. A BMW is also free outside of how much it costs.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
High end laptops are sort of at about lower-mid PC gaming level now (and expensive, with terrible battery life and nut-roasting temperatures when you're really pushing them).
720p (which I believe is the resolution most people were benchmarking at for the Alienware m11x) is great on a smaller screen (like a laptop usually has), but a larger monitor goes significantly higher resolution, and requires significantly more power to match.
Same with HTPCs and other SFF PCs - if you genuinely need the power you're pretty much forced to use a 'traditional' form PC, if only for cooling reasons.
It's more the fact that Intel allows for interoperability than that it is inherently more powerful than ARM - ARM is actually probably a better choice for a mobile device due to it having very good power consumption requirements and thermal envelope, which is key for anything not permanently tethered to a power cord.
Intel have obviously been making huge advances in power consumption and heat output recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if the first wave of intel tablets are either comparatively underwhelming speed wise or battery life wise compared to an iPad or Android tablet.
For the consumer market who have for years just been buying a random laptop / desktop from Walmart (or whatever) a tablet is absolutely a superior solution.
'Power' users - whether that's commercially or at a consumer level - are, I suspect, literally decades away from not having a box connected to a power supply sat next to a monitor.
And that's pretty much assuming software requirements are fairly stagnant - anyone producing content for devices always needs significantly more power to generate that content than the end consumer requires to consume it, whether that's video editing, music production, rendering, modelling, coding and compiling or whatever else.
Arstechnica has a good write-up. The experience is decidedly mixed. You need to go to the desktop for anything even slightly out of the ordinary.
"Here's where things get exciting. The Iconia W700 has a Thunderbolt port. It could theoretically serve as a tablet, that's also a notebook that's also your desktop. Local storage will be limited to whatever is inside the chassis, but you could easily have an external disk array giving you terabytes of high-speed local storage when in desktop mode. Remember the old holy grail that we once believed we had to rely on the cloud for: all your content, any time, any where. With the W700 as your tablet, notebook and desktop, by default you get almost all of that without ever relying on a wireless connection."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5968/acers-iconia-w700-tablet-windows-8
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
So not being satisfied with "extrapolating a general point from comments directed at other companies in an article from a year ago" and wanting more specific info over his concerns with Windows 8 = Posters just being "insulted" because we're effectively MS fanboys?
I think the vast majority of us were just curious if there was anything past the fairly obvious "MS app store" issue, and would've liked an article or comments more in-depth than a blurb on twitter...and that's pretty much it.
Keyboard shortcuts are your friend.
Windows Key + D
its really not that hard, plus I like glancing at the info in the start screen
How can Microsoft take 30% of a sale they literally know nothing about? It's a listing in a store that takes you to a URL. After that there is absolutely no knowledge of what happens of any potential transaction.
There is no per-listing cost. There's a per-year cost for VeriSign, and right now that's $100. Pay once per year, sign as many Desktop apps as you want to sign.
alexandros
Banned
The issue with Windows 8 has been explained thoroughly in this thread by pretty much everyone who knows about Gabe Newell's views on closed platforms. Some posters dismiss that problem by claiming that Windows 8 isn't really being closed down and that Newell, Blizzard and Notch are just afraid of Microsoft competition.
It's not the difference in opinion that puzzles me, it's the fact that people still wonder "what their problem is" when it's been explained a thousand times in this thread and the previous one about Windows 8.
Speedymanic
Banned
So you're basically admitting that he hasn't specified a reason and is only speculating and fear mongering by directing me to a year old news item?
And I can only assume that your completely ignoring the Blizzard part means they also haven't specified a reason beyond vague comments.
As I said, only Notch has specified a reason, the others haven't, probably because they would rightly be seen as protectionists and trying to monopolize the market.
Family Fry
Member
Problems are being sighted as 'closed platform this closed platform that' do people GENUINELY think MS would lock down PC owners ability to play and install what they want?
Or are we being seriously lead to believe this is all because MS will have an OS based Store front? The very definition of PCs would be under scrutiny if it became completely closed, I don't think there would be a single PC owner or developer that wouldn't drop MS like a sack if they ventured that way, ultimately preventing the industry from expanding.
Xbox is the closed platform.
PC is the open platform.
I donn't see that changing, all I see is MS offering Metro RT only versions of Phones/Tablets to push that service and design.
Or are we being seriously lead to believe this is all because MS will have an OS based Store front? The very definition of PCs would be under scrutiny if it became completely closed, I don't think there would be a single PC owner or developer that wouldn't drop MS like a sack if they ventured that way, ultimately preventing the industry from expanding.
Xbox is the closed platform.
PC is the open platform.
I donn't see that changing, all I see is MS offering Metro RT only versions of Phones/Tablets to push that service and design.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Usually when someone claims the sky-is-falling chicken-little style "it's going to drive x/y/z out and kill the industry" people should demand more than posters like you acting like Gabe's PR Manager. Maybe people find it hard to believe the reaction is this strong to just "an app store", and were wondering if there was maybe a bit more to the complaints.
Being concerned about the app store eventually leading to a locked down OS is absolutely understandable, but claiming it's going to destroy the industry needs to be backed up with something more in-depth, you posting old vaguely related articles isn't enough.