the *70 series is still high end. it's definitely aimed at the enthusiast crowd for a time being
there's a reason why they sit on the *60 cards for so long
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Nvidias GPU marketing is ridiculous
- Thread starter triplestation
- Start date
the *70 series is still high end. it's definitely aimed at the enthusiast crowd for a time being
there's a reason why they sit on the *60 cards for so long
Memorabilia
Member
Milk people for an extra $100...
...because...
"Ooooh Shiny!"
...because...
"Ooooh Shiny!"
Keep in mind third party OEMs are going to have to take Nvidia's specs and create their own PCB. So Nvidia is going to have an inherent advantage to be first out of the gate.
Nvidia are also bringing out the 1080 first, which is an ultra-enthusiast card. It would be a huge stretch to imply a person wasn't aware of the lower priced entries with the custom PCBs and cooling solutions.
Nvidia are also bringing out the 1080 first, which is an ultra-enthusiast card. It would be a huge stretch to imply a person wasn't aware of the lower priced entries with the custom PCBs and cooling solutions.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Surely we've gone off the deep end if we're pretending that a 1070 is a mid-range card. Video cards are already an enthusiast class product--the mid tier of PC gaming is integrated graphics or one of those crappy nVidia mobile GPUs. The modal Steam user has 1GB of vram. The median PC gamer plays LoL, WoW, and Minecraft. People playing new release AAA games at 1440p or 4K or buying VR are like 5 standard deviations right of the mean.
But even among the dedicated GPU people, a 970 is beyond enthusiast overkill. Someone can get good, >console performance at 1080p with good effects (and for everything other than new-release AAA, do ultra and super-sampling) on a 780TI or a 970. A 960 is great. A 980 is beyond overkill. A Titan is beyond beyond overkill. And the 1070 is outperforming a Titan on some benchmarks and we're complaining that nVidia isn't offering enough mid-tier value because they're selling a reference card?
It looks like on Steam right now, running a 970 would put you in the top ~8% of gamers on Steam. So we're already self-selecting for people hardcore enough to PC game, to have a Steam account, etc. The biggest grower in the last month was the GeForce 750 TI--and after that the 730, the 960, and the 750. I'm on a 770 (someone else's used handmedown) and I get great performance at 1080p.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
To elaborate, the empty stocks of all those FE cards shows that these enthusiasts are really thirsty for high framerate 4k/1440p gaming. AMD are so incredibly slow to the fight, they are just letting this whole segment become dominated by Nvidia and keep people on a string of "well, Vega is coming..." To appeal to the YouTube tech enthusiast crowd, what sounds more eye-catching; "2 GTX 1080 overclocked SLI running Star Citizen at 4k 60fps" or "2 AMD 480's Crossfire running Overwatch". Having something to show at the top end trickles down to the vast majority of PC builders that can't afford those beasts to buy into the brand on their economy, mid-range cards. Saying your computer's got "an Nvidia in it" has an innate perception of performance, even if it's just a 750 Ti, that the brand AMD doesn't have. With AMD, you have to specify almost because they're falling out of mind with the PC gaming zeitgeist as a big performance king; which they demonstrably CAN be!
Clearly the 480 had to happen, and it will do wonders for their bottom line, but they really should've at least shown off what they had in store for a larger uncut Polaris 10 or even shown a Vega with GDDR5X. Something(!) to make those FE cards look like a money-grabbing opportunity that they clearly are. But instead, AMD lets this happen tacitly by not showing their hand and showing no fight for this extremely niche, yet important for mind share, section of the market.
Clearly the 480 had to happen, and it will do wonders for their bottom line, but they really should've at least shown off what they had in store for a larger uncut Polaris 10 or even shown a Vega with GDDR5X. Something(!) to make those FE cards look like a money-grabbing opportunity that they clearly are. But instead, AMD lets this happen tacitly by not showing their hand and showing no fight for this extremely niche, yet important for mind share, section of the market.
I don't entirely understand the difference between a "founders edition", and charging a high price then dropping it when demand starts to drop (plus possibly having a near negligible difference in build quality). If anything "founders edition" is a very honest marketing strategy.
Just have alittle patience, it's been almost 2 years since the 980, I find it hard to believe that people can't wait another month or so.
Just have alittle patience, it's been almost 2 years since the 980, I find it hard to believe that people can't wait another month or so.
QuantumSquid
Member
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Considering the 750 Ti could hold its own at 1080p/900p at console settings, I would argue that would be mainstream gaming.
Integrated graphics and those garbage x40 and below cards are entry-level.
Let's ignore previous generations for simplicity. Consoles are also possibly getting iterations.
ethomaz
Banned
The top card today is 1080 so it is enthusiast... this same guy bought a 1080 today will buy a 1080ti or Titan even if they release it next month.
The guy will continue being enthusiastic.
hooijdonk17
Member
More like nVidia customers are ridiculous.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
okay, well, then, the 1050 and 1060 don't exist yet so i guess the only video cards are the 1070 (which, as we've learned, is entry level at best) and the 1080 (which i guess is like borderline ready to play games like pong and battlezone). edit: the biggest pc game release of the year is overwatch. looks like a geforce 660 gets 60fps at 1080p on ultra. **** note during testing the 660 did get as low as 58 frames per second which is clearly unacceptable.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Of course, but generational improvement implies that the 1050 will be at least above the console standard for the most part.
This made me laugh for some reason.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
You and I clearly lurk in different corners because I've heard nothing but flak at Nvidia for this, admittedly scalpy, strategy. That and the constant bleeting of "ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC ASYNC"
Not if X1.5 meets the 5.5TF rumor. Maybe it will be in Neo's ballpark.
Edit: sorry going off-topic
Price discrimination is a logical practice.
If there's people willing to pay an extra US$100 for the privilege of early access, it's silly not to give them that choice. You then cut the US$100 and scoop up people who weren't willing to pay for that early release. A few months later you get some price cuts.
Nothing wrong with this. You get people to pay as much as they're willing to pay, thus maximizing income. It's the smart thing to do, and what every product ends up doing one way or another (prices always come down in time, but you wanna make sure you don't start at a price lower than what some people would have been willing to pay).
If there's people willing to pay an extra US$100 for the privilege of early access, it's silly not to give them that choice. You then cut the US$100 and scoop up people who weren't willing to pay for that early release. A few months later you get some price cuts.
Nothing wrong with this. You get people to pay as much as they're willing to pay, thus maximizing income. It's the smart thing to do, and what every product ends up doing one way or another (prices always come down in time, but you wanna make sure you don't start at a price lower than what some people would have been willing to pay).
What magical land do you live in where nvidia isn't catching shit for this?
And tbh I don't see why they should. If people decide they want the overpriced founders edition, then blame them, providing stock for a demand isn't an evil practice in the slightest.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I mean, it'd be one thing if they were evasive about it (for instance saying "MSRP $350" and then never clarifying the true price is higher, or saying "MSRP $450 and no third party providers will be able to go below this so buy the founders edition!!!" or whatever) -- but that's not what happened here. Other than about 10 seconds of confusion during the conference, it's been clear what was being offered for what price. Everyone I've heard get upset about this fully understands the situation and simply is angry because they'd rather buy now, pay the lesser price, and get the best possible cooler.
Yup it's just people that are impatient and want exactly what they will get right now.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Both Apple and Nvidia are not catching much shit. Only tiny vocal minority.
I also agree with selling whatever people are willing to pay.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Mate. How did you come to that conclusion? It beats every GPU currently out by at least 20% and can go further with simple overclocking (i.e. not touching the voltage)
CrispyBoar
Banned
What kind of GPU is the best if you're just getting started to have your own gaming PC?
the land where people are still buying the 1080 and 1070 reference cards that are being released
QuantumSquid
Member
The one with the best price/performance ratio that fits into your budget and will provide a good framerate in games at your monitor's native resolution.
Radeon RX480 (wait for benchmark reviews 1st)
QuantumSquid
Member
It costs $600-700. That is a lot of money for a single computer component.
You must be pretty wealthy to consider the 1080 midrange. Midrange by most people's standards means cards like the 960 and 380, around the $200 price point.
CrispyBoar
Banned
I'm thinking at least between $1,200 & $1,300 without peripherals.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1222740
This thread is brand-spanking-new with all the latest tech. There are numerous layers that'll fit your bill just fine. Read further for the consensus on the 1070/80/480 cards
If price is no obstacle, wait for the custom 1080s. If price is slightly an obstacle, get a 1070. If you just want to drop a little dosh and get a great card, get the 480 for 200.
A 1070 is a good fit for your range,
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
is this like an avant-garde performance of a reddit poster or something
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
This is the territory that comes with being an enthusiast. There are a lot of cheaper alternatives out there. It's the economics of supply and demand.
edit: Wow, apparently what some people perceive as "enthusiast" is pretty different from my interpretation.
edit: Wow, apparently what some people perceive as "enthusiast" is pretty different from my interpretation.
SneakyStephan, since Kepler, has been pushing the narrative that Nvidia has been shifting segments, e.g. selling midrange part as high end. The normally-used reasoning is die size and performance jump history.
Those claiming the GTX 1080 is a midrange cars are not technically wrong. As far as die size goes, the GTX 1070/1080 are 300 mm^2, which is a fair bit smaller than the 400 mm^2 GTX 970/980. Let's ignore performance for a moment. As far as this generation goes, it is an entry level high end card.
Not that I agree with the above, but it is another way of looking at things.
The truth is a bit more nuanced. Yields certainly have a big part to play here, and we know from Intel's recent die shrinks that heat becomes a major issue when transistors become compacted into such a small die. And truth be told, the 980 Ti 600mm^2 monster may be simply a product of an overly long generation. We may see such a beast again, but I don't expect to for another generation at least.
Not that I agree with the above, but it is another way of looking at things.
The truth is a bit more nuanced. Yields certainly have a big part to play here, and we know from Intel's recent die shrinks that heat becomes a major issue when transistors become compacted into such a small die. And truth be told, the 980 Ti 600mm^2 monster may be simply a product of an overly long generation. We may see such a beast again, but I don't expect to for another generation at least.
But defining things as midrange in comparison to previous products that are slower but have a bigger die, or future products that don't exist yet, is silly.
Right now it's the fastest single GPU card you can buy. It's clearly high end. If 1080ti comes out, or 1180 on a 500-600sqmm die, then the 1080 will still be high end - just lower down the pecking order. Even with a likely price drop it'll still be a $500 card which is not mid range pricing
Zepp Twofist
Member
I'm not as bothered by the FE bullshit as I am about the fact that their *80 series has doubled in price over two generations.
chromatic9
Member
Well it's technically midrange, all started when AMD released the underwhelming 7970.
Now we have NVidia adding another $100 on a sub 200w part making it $700.
Scalpers being scalpers will just mark it higher so we have crazy shit like this for a sub 200w part lol.
Now we have NVidia adding another $100 on a sub 200w part making it $700.
Scalpers being scalpers will just mark it higher so we have crazy shit like this for a sub 200w part lol.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
You're not even getting a good product though. You're paying $100 more for something that doesn't work as well.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I watched almost the same argument just today:
https://hardforum.com/threads/midrange-gpus-had-gotten-high-end-gpus-price-tag.1900998/
That guy got deconstructed pretty fast, so if you guys want to save time and effort just read that thread instead of wasting time having the same argument here.
Metalic Sand
who is Emo-Beas?
Is there any sort of + to those blower coolers? They always seem to perform worse than custom coolers.
Now I wish I knew what misterbobby's 'childish rant' was
SneakyStephan
Banned
Do you have any arguments to the contrary to add or just condescending shitposting?
Just because it's a midrange chip doesn't mean it can't be overpriced
gp104 is by definition the midrange chip
If a lada costs 50grand that doesn't make it an ultra high end car
Meanwhile everyone know agrees that the 390 and 390x are not high end chips, yet they are WAY bigger and with a 512bit memory but
Neogaf is the only place i see people pretend their gtx 970/980s are some kind of 'ultra high end enthusiast' cards
And if gp104 is ultra enthusiast what does that make the gtx 980ti and 1080ti? Ultra mega duper super wombo elite ?
Whatever makes you feel better about shelling out 700 dollars for a midrange chip with only 256bit memory bus, a 300mm² die and a pcb with only 5 power phases I guess.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
What's the GP106, then?
Aztechnology
Member
Tend to be better for small form factor PC's (Sometimes, usually if you don't have liquid cooling) and multi-gpu setups.
