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NYC Mayor's idea for controversial statues: just add an "explanation" plaque

Most of the sentimentality is because Italian Americans were an oppressed minority for their first ~100 years in the United States, and so they strongly identified with Christopher Columbus, one of the few Italians that WASP America allowed them to have any pride in, and so cities with large Italian American populations established Columbus day as a a sort of olive branch to Italian Americans.

Columbus was the one Italian that the white protestant majority permitted Italian Americans to be proud of, sure he was a filthy Catholic but he was "one of the good ones," and so this hero worship of Columbus grew in the US not just from the white majority, but minorities identified and found pride in it for several generations, because they were living in a country that treated them as second class citizens.
Very good post.
 
ITT, people assume DeBlasio is referring to Confederate statues. He's not. He's referring to statues of Christopher Columbus. I'd doubt that New York City has any confederate statues, so hanging a poster that says 'TRAITOR' on Christopher Columbus might, kinda, miss the point.

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Something I've wondered lately... Are there movements in areas like Colombia or British Columbia to rename those areas to something else, on account of the more modern view of Columbus?

And isn't his birthplace disputed, or just in the hispanic world?

I think i was already a man when i learnt he was italian, all my life i thought he was a Spaniard.

I don't think there's ever been any doubt that Columbus was born in Italy. Where there could be some confusion is that Columbus' voyage was paid for by Spain, so he was on Spanish expeditions. At the time, Italy was under 100 years of warfare, as all of the Italian states were independent, and Columbus spent most of his early adult life outside of Italy. He originally appealed to Portugal, and then later to Spain.
 
How about putting the statues in a museum? The left is happy because they don't have to see that shit while walking or driving around a town and the right are happy that the statue isn't destroyed and they can go honor their, "heritage" by going to the museum and seeing all the statues at once.
 
Most of the sentimentality is because Italian Americans were an oppressed minority for their first ~100 years in the United States, and so they strongly identified with Christopher Columbus, one of the few Italians that WASP America allowed them to have any pride in, and so cities with large Italian American populations established Columbus day as a a sort of olive branch to Italian Americans.

Columbus was the one Italian that the white protestant majority permitted Italian Americans to be proud of, sure he was a filthy Catholic but he was "one of the good ones," and so this hero worship of Columbus grew in the US not just from the white majority, but minorities identified and found pride in it for several generations, because they were living in a country that treated them as second class citizens.

I mean, yeah, Columbus helped link Italian Americans to the ("real") white people who despised them through a shared history of oppressing other minorities.

Nothing says "no, we're really white too" quite like celebrating enslaving people with darker skin.

Obviously this wasn't the focus of the Italian Americans at the time, but it feels somewhat telling that the white majority were more ready to accept them once they realized they had a history of belief in their shared "superiority" over the people who were here first.
 
This is the problem with expanding the remit. Columbus is a genocidal maniac, but they didn't build the statue because he was a genocidal maniac, they built the statue because he was Italian and Italians wanted to feel like part of America.

To put this in clearer terms: the building of statues of Columbus was part of Italian-Americans overcoming the institutionalized white Protestant supremacist movement that denied them political power and access to jobs and education. And yes, at the time, they weren't considered white by the powers that be. It was their version of putting Harriet Tubman on the $10.

The distinction between statues of Columbus and statues of Robert E Lee is pretty clear -- the Confederate statues were explicitly built with the aim of promoting and defining white supremacy. Those should go. But we should consider the purpose and effect of public statuary when we consider whether we should remove it.

There's also their respective historical roles. Robert E Lee was a disruptive figure in the course of American history; Christopher Columbus was instrumental to it. We're going to be learning about the latter's influence on the world forever. Inevitably, the enormity of what he did, in and of itself, makes him stand out as a historical figure, and that statues of him have popped up throughout the years makes sense.

For this reason, I think the plaque idea might be suitable here. The combination of plaque and statue genuinely serves to put our history in context. Columbus is someone we're inescapably tied to, someone who was widely revered for centuries, but also someone who planted the seed of America's original sin in a monstrous fashion.
 
I still don't get why Italians get all sentimental about Christopher Columbus. It's not like he "discovered" Hispaniola for Italy.

Also, is this a thing in Italy, too, or is it just Italian-Americans?


Italy wasn't unified until the 19th Century.

800px-Italy_1494.svg.png

1494 map

Columbus hailed from the Republic of Genoa.

The Kingdom of Naples and Sicily were under Aragon control (Spain), then later in Spanish controller when Castille and Aragon unified.
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this whole hard on for Columbus on the part of Italian-Americans makes no sense. Especially since most Italian-Americans are Southern Italians, far removed from Genoa, Milan, Venice and Florence
 
The problem is Who Gets to Decide?
Who gets to decide who is venerated? Why?

The community does, first and foremost. If the people don't want it there, why keep it? The community needs to decide.

The "keep" argument seems to rely so much on some unquestionable force of inertia, like it's impossible to abandon the idea that Columbus and the Confederates are venerable parts of our history, "because they always were". People's attitudes about history and our society change, and a lot of people feel that we just don't need those statues anymore.
 
The history of Columbus being celebrated is very different from the white supremacy motivations that caused for Confederates to be celebrated, so in this case I can see a plaque explaining that he enacted genocide during violent campaigns to discover and conquer.

I also think people who are asking for the removal of confederate statues are also the ones who are impacted by what they mean and what they represent. Who is asking for the removal of the Colobus statues was impacted by genocide in the 1400s?

Confederate statues and the normalization of southern nationalism has impacted every person of color and often those monuments were put in locations where there were only people of color.
 
I also think people who are asking for the removal of confederate statues are also the ones who are impacted by what they mean and what they represent. Who is asking for the removal of the Colobus statues was impacted by genocide in the 1400s?

Confederate statues and the normalization of southern nationalism has impacted every person of color and often those monuments were put in locations where there were only people of color.

You know that Native Americans still exist and some of them almost certainly live in New York City, right?
 
But genocide. Genocide should be a starting point for whether or not someone is evil. Somewhere between genocidal and saint there is a gray area, but genocide is fairly unambiguous.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ultimately fine with removing Columbus from these places. Too messy of a figure to widely venerate imo.

Something I've wondered lately... Are there movements in areas like Colombia or British Columbia to rename those areas to something else, on account of the more modern view of Columbus?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(name)
It's a different character than Columbus. Columbia was sort of a personification of America. Like Uncle Sam if he was a Waifu.

200px-American_progress.JPG


Still potentially problematic (people loved to use her in Manifest Destiny/colonialism paintings), but being a fictional character, not guilty of actual genocide and not tied down to any one ideology (she's more a general symbol for America than any one idea).
 
I mean, yeah, Columbus helped link Italian Americans to the ("real") white people who despised them through a shared history of oppressing other minorities.

Nothing says "no, we're really white too" quite like celebrating enslaving people with darker skin.

Obviously this wasn't the focus of the Italian Americans at the time, but it feels somewhat telling that the white majority were more ready to accept them once they realized they had a history of belief in their shared "superiority" over the people who were here first.

This seems to be putting things into peoples mouths.

And the latter is not really how things went down.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(name)
It's a different character than Columbus. Columbia was sort of a personification of America. Like Uncle Sam if he was a Waifu.

200px-American_progress.JPG


Still potentially problematic (people loved to use her in Manifest Destiny/colonialism paintings), but being a fictional character, not guilty of actual genocide and not tied down to any one ideology (she's more a general symbol for America than any one idea).

It originated from the name of Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and from the ending -ia, common in Latin names of countries (paralleling Britannia, Gallia etc.).
 
I mean, yeah, Columbus helped link Italian Americans to the ("real") white people who despised them through a shared history of oppressing other minorities.

Nothing says "no, we're really white too" quite like celebrating enslaving people with darker skin.

Obviously this wasn't the focus of the Italian Americans at the time, but it feels somewhat telling that the white majority were more ready to accept them once they realized they had a history of belief in their shared "superiority" over the people who were here first.

I doubt that early 20th century Italian immigrants would have known the first thing about Columbus' governorship in Latin America. Italians were largely not allowed to go to school and there were no private schools for Italian immigrants even in heavily Italian areas like New York, Boston, or Chicago.

It's not that it wasn't a focus, it probably wasn't known at all for them. For what it's worth, Columbus' governorship of Latin America isn't even very well known among the masses today, let alone 100 years ago for Italian immigrants who weren't allowed to go to school.
 
I'm Canadian, so I might not have the full context on the issue, we don't celebrate Colombus Day over here, after all.

I feel like the fact that the United States had their weird mythos built up around Christopher Colombus, someone who is and was without question a horrible human being is an important fact to remember. I think the "milkshake duck" moment that the US had collectively over Colombus is important to remember. I'm not sure if a plaque is enough, but I certainly think that we should never forget all of the atrocities that are foundational to both the US and Canada. I think that the plaque should remind people that someone who mainly murdered innocent people was once taught about in US history classes as a hero.

It annoys me to no end when I go to Capital Hill here in Ottawa and see all of the super patriotic ceremonies we have that either forget or dismiss the extreme atrocities that our government has been responsible for. We need to recognize and acknowledge that these awful things happened, I think it's impossible to just move over it.
 
Christopher Columbus statues are just so far down on my list of things to be outraged about. Some additional accompanying information sounds like a decent solution IMO.

How about we work on changing school curriculums so he stops being recognized as this big hero? Also, get rid of Columbus Day.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm ultimately fine with removing Columbus from these places. Too messy of a figure to widely venerate imo.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(name)
It's a different character than Columbus. Columbia was sort of a personification of America. Like Uncle Sam if he was a Waifu.

200px-American_progress.JPG


Still potentially problematic (people loved to use her in Manifest Destiny/colonialism paintings), but being a fictional character, not guilty of actual genocide and not tied down to any one ideology (she's more a general symbol for America than any one idea).

I dunno about that, at least in the case of Colombia, the country, it's from Christopher Columbus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia#Etymology

The name "Colombia" is derived from the last name of Christopher Columbus (Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish: Cristóbal Colón). It was conceived by the Venezuelan revolutionary Francisco de Miranda as a reference to all the New World, but especially to those portions under Spanish and Portuguese rule.

And "Columbia" the female association with America is named after Christopher Columbus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(name)

It originated from the name of Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and from the ending -ia, common in Latin names of countries (paralleling Britannia, Gallia etc.)
 
Christopher Columbus statues are just so far down on my list of things to be outraged about. Some additional accompanying information sounds like a decent solution IMO.

How about we work on changing school curriculums so he stops being recognized as this big hero? Also, get rid of Columbus Day.

Only issue I have is switch the day off with Election Day instead.

Is he still concerned a big her in schools?
 
Christopher Columbus statues are just so far down on my list of things to be outraged about. Some additional accompanying information sounds like a decent solution IMO.

How about we work on changing school curriculums so he stops being recognized as this big hero? Also, get rid of Columbus Day.

He's largely not and hasn't been for some 30 years.

The genocide of native americans is widely discussed. Other more decent people like Bartolomé de las Casas are huge figures in current curriculum for basically publicizing how wrong much of the colonization was and the atrocities committed.
 
This is the problem with expanding the remit. Columbus is a genocidal maniac, but they didn't build the statue because he was a genocidal maniac, they built the statue because he was Italian and Italians wanted to feel like part of America.

To put this in clearer terms: the building of statues of Columbus was part of Italian-Americans overcoming the institutionalized white Protestant supremacist movement that denied them political power and access to jobs and education. And yes, at the time, they weren't considered white by the powers that be. It was their version of putting Harriet Tubman on the $10.

The distinction between statues of Columbus and statues of Robert E Lee is pretty clear -- the Confederate statues were explicitly built with the aim of promoting and defining white supremacy. Those should go. But we should consider the purpose and effect of public statuary when we consider whether we should remove it.

This is a great point, thanks for posting this
 
I think this is a more complicated issue than that of the Confederate statues. I don't know if just adding a plaque is enough, but at least a case can be made that doing such a thing plus building additional monuments to the indigenous peoples of the continent would be a good start.

The arrival of Columbus did lead to violent conquest and the establishment of a colonial system that included slavery, which absolutely ended up causing a lot of death and suffering. He was also a greedy and, frankly, ultimately ignorant adventurer on an individual level with an evidently ethnocentric viewpoint shared by far too many (not necessarily all) of his contemporaries. However, most of the millions of deaths among the indigenous populations of the Americas were the result of disease, not because of the conquest itself nor due to a full-scale genocidal intent. Even Columbus himself fell from grace rather quickly and surprisingly early, which is indicative that he wasn't the true driving force behind what happened.

Needless to say, I do think figures like Bartolome de las Casas who were relatively quick to recognize and denounce the early atrocities against the native inhabitants (albeit he also fell into the trap of suggesting that the "Indians" should be replaced by African slaves, though he later regretted arguing this) are more deserving of having statues than him.
 
The one problem I have with removing monuments/statues glorifying questionable people is if their having remained as long as they did is removed as well. A plaque virtually nobody is going to read is a thoughtless idea, but it'd be even worse to obscure the statue's presence (in time) entirely, say by putting up someone who's idolized today in its place. There are so many talented people out there who could contradict these ugly marks using that same visual language, drowning out whatever the statue was meant to commemorate (my lazy idea would be some kind of semi-transparent/distorting enclosing). There are more creative and powerful ways to re-contextualize. Or you remove it and dedicate the place to the removal, noting what was removed, why and when. Hiding inherited ugliness in museums and historic records is an ugly impulse.
 
This brings to mind the old Tom and Jerry cartoons where there's the stereotypical (for the time) black maid running scared because there's a mouse in the house.

Warner Bros. decided to not edit or exclude these cartoons; instead, they issued a message before such episodes:

"Tom and Jerry shorts may depict some ethnic and racial prejudices that were once commonplace in American society. Such depictions were wrong then and are wrong today."

CinemaBlend has an article about this, and the verdict is inconclusive. Having said that, would it be better to ignore the issue, remove the issue, or explain the issue?

I think that it's better to explain the issue, instead of ignoring it or pretending it never existed. There are no perfect answers to this, but at least by explaining, we can try to make sense of where we were, versus where we are, and where we are heading.
 
http://www.broward.k12.fl.us/corecu...king-Christopher_Columbus_Hero_or_Villain.PDF

This is a class plan for Christopher Columbus in Florida.

Historiography is how views of historical figures change over time. Students will read different historical views of Christopher Columbus to see how he has gone from "hero to villain" over time. They will discuss as a class why the view of Columbus has changed. As a conclusion, they will research other well known historical figures to determine how
they are viewed by historians and whether this has changed over time.
 
I dunno about that, at least in the case of Colombia, the country, it's from Christopher Columbus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia#Etymology

And "Columbia" the female association with America is named after Christopher Columbus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(name)

Judging the merits of a name based on etymology is pretty problematic.

There are plenty of words we still use with worse histories than being named after Columbus. You'd be surprised how many words have racist pasts.
At a certain point, words transcend their past usage. It's good to recognize their past for the sake of speaking well and understanding language, but extending etymology to a word's meaning regardless of context is disingenous.

It's clear people used the Columbia concept without Columbus involved. Being named after something does not make you the same as the namesake.
 
They taking this down next? More specifically, possibly, Jefferson?
1200px-Dean_Franklin_-_06.04.03_Mount_Rushmore_Monument_%28by-sa%29-3_new.jpg


Just wondering... where would it end?
 
I doubt that early 20th century Italian immigrants would have known the first thing about Columbus' governorship in Latin America. Italians were largely not allowed to go to school and there were no private schools for Italian immigrants even in heavily Italian areas like New York, Boston, or Chicago.

It's not that it wasn't a focus, it probably wasn't known at all for them. For what it's worth, Columbus' governorship of Latin America isn't even very well known among the masses today, let alone 100 years ago for Italian immigrants who weren't allowed to go to school.

I was specifically talking about the appeal of Columbus to the white majority who believed in manifest destiny. He was the man who "discovered" this great land so that it could be taken from the savages as God intended, etc. As I said, the immigrants at the time would have not thought of it that way, but the idea that Columbus could discover a land that was already populated by people has always been linked to our country's foundational beliefs in white supremacy.

He's largely not and hasn't been for some 30 years.

The genocide of native americans is widely discussed. Other more decent people like Bartolomé de las Casas are huge figures in current curriculum for basically publicizing how wrong much of the colonization was and the atrocities committed.

I mean, in New York, probably.

I went to elementary school in Ohio in the mid-90s, and our fifth grade students put on a play celebrating Columbus once a year. All the students got to miss class for the day and the fifth graders themselves spent several weeks only studying Columbus and preparing for the play. We never learned anything about the atrocities he committed then or at any point during my entire education in that midwest public school system.

Columbus was probably the most beloved figure to students at our elementary school because he was associated with so many positive, fun memories.

Has it probably improved since then? I certainly hope so. But all those people I went to school with, and the ones who came before me for years and years, are adults of voting age now whose education told them Columbus was a great man.
 
This is the problem with expanding the remit. Columbus is a genocidal maniac, but they didn't build the statue because he was a genocidal maniac, they built the statue because he was Italian and Italians wanted to feel like part of America.

To put this in clearer terms: the building of statues of Columbus was part of Italian-Americans overcoming the institutionalized white Protestant supremacist movement that denied them political power and access to jobs and education. And yes, at the time, they weren't considered white by the powers that be. It was their version of putting Harriet Tubman on the $10.

The distinction between statues of Columbus and statues of Robert E Lee is pretty clear -- the Confederate statues were explicitly built with the aim of promoting and defining white supremacy. Those should go. But we should consider the purpose and effect of public statuary when we consider whether we should remove it.
Agreed.
 
I understand why people are upset, but I legit don't think it's that bad of a compromise decision.

It's a shit compromise. It's 'both sides' in physical form. Is it so hard to find better heroes?

That's how compromise works. Both sides leave feeling like they could have gotten more of what they wanted; that doesn't mean compromise and settlement are bad, they're not.
 
I was specifically talking about the appeal of Columbus to the white majority who believed in manifest destiny. He was the man who "discovered" this great land so that it could be taken from the savages as God intended, etc. As I said, the immigrants at the time would have not thought of it that way, but the idea that Columbus could discover a land that was already populated by people has always been linked to our country's foundational beliefs in white supremacy.



I mean, in New York, probably.

I went to elementary school in Ohio in the mid-90s, and our fifth grade students put on a play celebrating Columbus once a year. All the students got to miss class for the day and the fifth graders themselves spent several weeks only studying Columbus and preparing for the play. We never learned anything about the atrocities he committed then or at any point during my entire education in that midwest public school system.

Columbus was probably the most beloved figure to students at our elementary school because he was associated with so many positive, fun memories.

Has it probably improved since then? I certainly hope so. But all those people I went to school with, and the ones who came before me for years and years, are adults of voting age now whose education told them Columbus was a great man.
I grew up in the south. We still have pitiful education on the civil war with the lost cause still casting a large shadow.

We were taught a lot about the genocide and enslavement of Native Peoples by the spanish and english.

I was specifically talking about the appeal of Columbus to the white majority who believed in manifest destiny. He was the man who "discovered" this great land so that it could be taken from the savages as God intended, etc. As I said, the immigrants at the time would have not thought of it that way, but the idea that Columbus could discover a land that was already populated by people has always been linked to our country's foundational beliefs in white supremacy.

The white majority suppressed Columbus day because he was a catholic and represented immigrants....

And the venom you describe in the pride of discovery isn't really well supported.

There's elements of that in the North American killing of the Indians on the frontier but I've never ever heard of that with Columbus.

Columbus and the Spanish was very much CATHOLIC SUPREMACY (there's a reason why many native south and Central Americans are still around) while the English were much more WHITE Supremacy and why there are much fewer relative Native North Americans
 
Christopher Columbus statues are just so far down on my list of things to be outraged about. Some additional accompanying information sounds like a decent solution IMO.

How about we work on changing school curriculums so he stops being recognized as this big hero? Also, get rid of Columbus Day.

NEVER. I still get this day off and it's awesome. Seems like a banking/finance holiday only at this point.
 
I'd say adding plaques to the statues describing the atrocities Columbus committed and replacing Columbus day with another holiday would be a good step.
 

To be clear, I am NOT a Trump supporter. I think there are certain statues honoring people which should be removed. I do think that there has to be consideration to the historical significance of the statue or whatever being removed and why it was put up in the first place. Seems to me that many just want to start removing them because they don't want to see them. History is full of ugly things and events that happened. Seeing the history, if done properly, is a reminder of those things so they don't happen again. There are even some that are for people who have done both great and horrible things. Those that are put up to celebrate the hate have to go. Those that serve another purpose deserve more well thought out consideration. Erasing history only helps people to repeat it.
 
I don't think there's ever been any doubt that Columbus was born in Italy. Where there could be some confusion is that Columbus' voyage was paid for by Spain, so he was on Spanish expeditions. At the time, Italy was under 100 years of warfare, as all of the Italian states were independent, and Columbus spent most of his early adult life outside of Italy. He originally appealed to Portugal, and then later to Spain.

No confusion, i mean full blown Columbus was born in Spain hypothesis.

Hell, i recently saw some tweet that said "Portuguese, Spaniard or italian? ADN could solve a 500 years old mystery".

Although just reading wikipedia says that most scholars agree he was from Genova, i guess the news never reached the hispanic world lol.
 
If White America gets to have statues of hateful racists, then we should get statues built of our own heroes and tell White society to "get over it" when they complain.
Where are the statues of Paul Robeson, Marcus Garvey, WEB Dubois, Malcolm X, Stokley Carmichael, Louis Farrakhan, Afeni Shakur, Betty Shabazz? Build them.
 
If White America gets to have statues of hateful racists, then we should get statues built of our own heroes and tell White society to "get over it" when they complain.
Where are the statues of Paul Robeson, Marcus Garvey, WEB Dubois, Malcolm X, Stokley Carmichael, Louis Farrakhan, Afeni Shakur, Betty Shabazz? Build them.

Totally pro-building the rest but Farrakhan?
 
I can’t see voters caring when you have subway on its last legs and expensive as hell rents.

Just a stupid thing the GOP candidate will push. Subway if I am not mistaken is controlled by the state. They provide the funding.

I'd say adding plaques to the statues describing the atrocities Columbus committed and replacing Columbus day with another holiday would be a good step.

Swap it with Election day.
 
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