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[Vanillalite]

250k is definitely not middle class, but at the same time it stresses the difference between people who work and make a really good living and the super wealthy that have millions if not billions to play with.

It's part of the strategy to pit the 250k house hold and the 30k household against each other vs understanding they are in it together and the real enemy is the people like the billionaire puppet master Kock brothers.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Maybe, maybe not. My wife just got a job adding significantly to our earnings and 100% of her salary is going into college funds and retirement. It isn't changing our lifestyle at all.

When you read this in a few years you'll mostly laugh. I'm sure you're going to save more, but its extremely likely your expenses and lifestyle will increase as well. The temptation is too great.

 

[xnipx]

The point that many people miss is that those people making 250k can afford to pay more in taxes. Someone struggling to feed a family on 40k CAN NOT.

 

[DeBurgo]

Middle class is the median wage isn't it? That's around $53k-$54k~.

Median wage for middle class should be the goal, not the definition. The definition should be standard of living.

i think the question is what kind of job earns you 250k a year?

does that kind of job ring as middle class to you? i dont think so..

This is household income so two spouses making 125k a year can easily put you over that. 125k a year is about what somebody who has a respectable career (10+ years experience) in a high tech sector can expect to make. So, for example, if one spouse works in software and the other works in pharmaceuticals, that would put them in that range.

 

[Daingurse]

Hurray I'm fucking poor. I wake up every day and work my ass off to be fucking poor.

I wake up everyday fully aware of the fact, hahahaha.

 

[jackissocool]

That's cause Hillary's an out of touch rich person who only cares about other out of touch rich people. Bourgies gonna bourg.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Thread is a bit hyperbolic. SJW's would have complained no matter where the dividing line was, because obviously the very top of the "middle class" spectrum would be well above the median.

 

[Vanillalite]

The point that many people miss is that those people making 250k can afford to pay more in taxes. Someone struggling to feed a family on 40k CAN NOT.

Can they afford to? Yes

Are they the problem? No

The problem is the ultra rich and corporate money to which 250k earners don't really reside in.

 

[Zoe]

I know a household that has a MD salary and an academia salary, three kids and are living in a capital city. That's something I would consider middle class, not $250k.

How much do they make?

Middle class is the median wage isn't it? That's around $53k-$54k~.

Middle class takes the entire household into account. Median wage is an individual's pay.

 

[VanWinkle]

$250k seems absolutely ASTOUNDING to me. In the area I live, you could live extremely comfortably with $70k. Heck, my wife and I together make less than $40k and we pay our bills and own our place and live fairly comfortably. I mean, money is an issue sometimes, but it's not something we have to stress about. My brother makes $80k a year and is the sole source of income in his family of six, and they have a big house, several vehicles, and live very comfortably.

 

[Octavia]

Doing some math, using tax brackets effectively to take out about 55k+25k for other taxes (state/ect), and even being as ridiculously generous with expenditures, beyond San Fran rents even (5k+ a month), with 3 kids, a spouse, and some pets, 250k yearly combined (170k effective) is still outrageous. You could basically buy whatever you want. I can't come up with over 130k in costs unless you're awful with money and bought a bunch of vehicles and stuff on financing. That leaves you with 40k a year to blow on whatever you want. I probably get about 2k to myself a year and I'm making it.

60k rent
6k utility
12k food
15k misc (clothes, necessities)
1.8k gas
3k pets
4k insurance
3k for random events
15k student loans
10k retirement

I must be doing something wrong in these calcs.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Thread is a bit hyperbolic. SJW's would have complained no matter where the dividing line was, because obviously the very top of the "middle class" spectrum would be well above the median.

Are you using SJW in some weird context I'm unfamiliar with?

 

[Guess Who]

125k a year is about what somebody who has a respectable career (10+ years experience) in a high tech sector can expect to make.

So, not middle class people, then.

Are you using SJW in some weird context I'm unfamiliar with?

"SJW" now means "left-wing people" in certain far-right circles.

 

[Sandfox]

Homes within 30 minutes of Manhattan (where I'm from in NJ) are like 500k, $250k is well above middle class even on the east coast.

In fact, in the most expensive city in America (San Francisco), $150k/yr is enough to purchase a median home.

That's kind of the point of this article; perception has gotten really, really far away from reality. If you make $250k a year, you are in the top 5% of income earners in the US, and probably in the top 1% worldwide.

I might need to look for work in Texas lol.

 

[Vanillalite]

So, not middle class people, then.

No they aren't middle class.

They also aren't the problem, nor should they be lumped in with the ultra rich.

 

[Frozenprince]

I might need to look for work in Texas lol.

Austin has the highest quality of living in the country IIRC (might have changed now I haven't looked at mags/sites that judge that stuff in a few years). It's a GREAT place to live.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Guess Who]

No they aren't middle class.

They also aren't the problem, nor should they be lumped in with the ultra rich.

I didn't say they are.

 

[Zoe]

Austin has the highest quality of living in the country IIRC (might have changed now I haven't looked at mags/sites that judge that stuff in a few years). It's a GREAT place to live.

Just throwing that out there.

No way that's the case anymore. Transplants have driven up housing costs too much for longtime residents.

 

[Maxim726X]

Aye this is true. Upper middle class, middle class, never rich so to speak.

Well... Honestly, there are some parts of the country (I live in one) where the median income wouldn't even afford rent.

My mortgage and taxes are ~2500/month. Rent for an average 2 bedroom apartment is ~1800 a month. That doesn't include a single utility.

So yeah, we wouldn't be able to survive on that salary.

 

[Frozenprince]

No way that's the case anymore. Transplants have driven up housing costs too much for longtime residents.

Well that's super depressing. Really is becoming the San Fran of Texas.

 

[JadedWriter]

I wake up everyday fully aware of the fact, hahahaha.

It's like the new American dream along with awaiting the inevitable robot overlord takeover.

 

[Paches]

That's cause Hillary's an out of touch rich person who only cares about other out of touch rich people. Bourgies gonna bourg.

That is a strange take considering her position is NOT raising taxes on people making $250k and under, given the first couple paragraphs of the article.

 

[Dennis]

A household of two professional adults in a major city making a combined $250,000 is probably what I would consider Upper Middle Class but it is not some ridiculous large sum either.

Moderately successful people in my line of work makes something like $120,000 so two of those in a household and we are about there.

 

[Meffer]

Inflation. Who would've guessed?!

 

[TheFixer]

I'd honestly say it depends largely on where you live. In San Francisco, I'd say you're borderline income insecure if you're a single person making under $80k all-in a year given what rental rates are like in the city. $250k for a couple is enough to live relatively comfortably (assuming something like a $4,000-4,500 a month one bedroom rental expense), but I wouldn't say that couple is situated in the upper strata of earners in America when adjusting for living expenses.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Does anyone actually know the income range of the 33 percentile to the 66th percentile? That should be the middle class, right? Or maybe 25 to 75. I'm assuming lower/middle/upper have equal numbers, but I guess middle should be the dominant group? Right? Maybe?

 

[Makai]

Middle class is $30k. If you make over $50k, you are in the top 10% of all income earners.

 

[N.Domixis]

I wish I made that much, i could buy all the lego and antique video games I wanted.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Middle class is $30k. If you make over $50k, you are in the top 10% of all income earners.

For household income? I doubt that.

 

[Guess Who]

I'd honestly say it depends largely on where you live. In San Francisco, I'd say you're borderline income insecure if you're a single person making under $80k all-in a year given what rental rates are like in the city. $250k for a couple is enough to live relatively comfortably (assuming something like a $4,000-4,500 a month one bedroom rental expense), but I wouldn't say that couple is situated in the upper strata of earners in America when adjusting for living expenses.

If you can live comfortably in San Francisco, you are not middle class. You may be "middle of San Francisco" class, but that's not the same as the American middle class.

Saying "$250k isn't really that much if you live in San Francisco" is like saying "$250k isn't all that much if you live in a gated community full of five million dollar houses."

 

[injurai]

We all know poor middle class families struggle to make ends meet at $250k a year.

This picture serves as some of the funniest dark humor.

 

[industrian]

I've probably earned less than US$120k in the last ten years of my life combined.

 

[Acorn]

Inflation. Who would've guessed?!

Good idea to check the op before saying something.

Hint - look in the second quote

 

[DeBurgo]

So, not middle class people, then.

Maybe. I dunno, I think doctors and lawyers still tend to have a bit more prestige than a software developer or clinical study manager, and they (doctors and lawyers) are generally considered to be the "top" of the middle class (upper middle), with some really successful ones being considered upper class.

 

[Cyan]

Middle class is $30k. If you make over $50k, you are in the top 10% of all income earners.

Median (for an individual) is $30k. Again, that's not necessarily the same as "middle class," depending on what you're actually trying to measure. If you make over $50k as an individual, you're in the top 25% of income earners. For a household, $50k is actually near the median.

 

[Aaron Strife]

We all know poor middle class families struggle to make ends meet at $250k a year.

Favorite is the sad old couple whose taxes aren't increasing at all. Maybe they're just bummed out about everyone else's taxes going up ;(

 

[TomServo]

Pretty much has to be in management or finance. I don't think even the chief architect of the component of the air traffic control system I work on at work makes 250 grand salary. And this is a multi-billion dollar system operational 24/7 across the entire country's airspace. And our component is the largest and most complex part of the system

He probably does. Technical salaries have a huge hockey stick curve to them. A grunt software engineer in our business makes $75K-$100K. The principal software engineers can command salaries 3x-4x that because our leadership is terrified of them leaving for another company.

 

[Red]

Maybe. I dunno, I think doctors and lawyers still tend to have a bit more prestige than a software developer or clinical study manager, and they (doctors and lawyers) are generally considered to be the "top" of the middle class (upper middle), with some really successful ones being considered upper class.

I think that's the sort of thing the article is addressing. There is a large gap between what most people make and the upper echelons of what is considered "middle class"—and with such a large discrepancy, what do people at the low end and the high end really have in common?

 

[G.ZZZ]

It's not middle class in term of income but in terms of what the actual middle class could do 50 years ago, having an house, sending ur kids to the university and not having crippling debts for health reasons etc...

 

[VanWinkle]

If you can live comfortably in San Francisco, you are not middle class. You may be "middle of San Francisco" class, but that's not the same as the American middle class.

Saying "$250k isn't really that much if you live in San Francisco" is like saying "$250k isn't all that much if you live in a gated community full of five million dollar houses."

Very good point.

 

[Frozenprince]

Favorite is the sad old couple whose taxes aren't increasing at all. Maybe they're just bummed out about everyone else's taxes going up ;(

The fact that the single lady can't eat a freaking 2.9K increase in taxes just slays me. Make 230K a year and have 0 dependents and you can't afford an extra 3 grand in taxes?

 

[hwalker84]

We all know poor middle class families struggle to make ends meet at $250k a year.

The married couple with 4 children is hilarious. As is the retired couple still making $180,000 a year.

 

[Frozenprince]

The married couple with 4 children is hilarious. As is the retired couple still making $180,000 a year.

IDK man I'd believe the one with kids not being able to take that hit.

Kids are fucking expensive.

 

[Makai]

Median (for an individual) is $30k. Again, that's not necessarily the same as "middle class," depending on what you're actually trying to measure. If you make over $50k as an individual, you're in the top 25% of income earners. For a household, $50k is actually near the median.

Those numbers were from memory. This calculator says $50k is the top 15%. Ok, not the greatest source ever, but it's probably close. I think personal income is a much better metric than household, especially considering the decline in marriage. As for the normative question, I think using quintiles to define lower, lower-middle, middle, upper-middle, and upper is a lot better than completely arbitrary boundaries.

 

[Tripon]

The NY Times posted this on April 10th, 2015

“Middle income is not necessarily the same thing as middle class,” said Rakesh Kochhar, a senior research associate at Pew. Even as the proportion of households in the middle-income brackets has narrowed, people’s identification with the middle class remains broad.

That’s because the middle-class label is as much about aspirations among Americans as it is about economics. But a perspective that was once characterized by comfort and optimism has increasingly been overlaid with stress and anxiety.

Part of the reason has to do with lost jobs and stagnating incomes. At the same time, the psychological frame — how Americans feel about their security and prospects — and the sociological — how they stack up in relation to their parents, friends, neighbors and colleagues — are just as important as purely economic criteria. And on both these counts, middle-class Americans say they are feeling increasingly vulnerable.

“There is a very big difference between the psychological self-definition of class and anything approaching a useful economic definition of class,” said Richard Reeves, a senior fellow in economic studies at the Brookings Institution. “Policy in the end will hinge quite importantly on what you mean when you’re talking about the middle class and who you mean.”

The feeling of comparative deprivation and the ultrarich separating themselves from the rest of society helps explain why only 1 percent of Americans accept the rich or upper-income label. Even most people earning over $250,000 — the top 5 percent of wage earners — identify as middle class. There’s always someone wealthier around.

“The gap between you and them is much bigger than it used to be,” Mr. Frank said. “That’s why people feel more stressed out than they used to.”

Not that I agree that a person who makes $250,000 a year is middle class, they're fucking rich. But I can understand why a person in that class doesn't consider themselves part of the rich, and why Clinton is including them in the middle class. She's trying to build a big of a base as possible.

 

[rando14]

Not that I agree that a person who makes $250,000 a year is middle class, they're fucking rich. But I can understand why a person in that class doesn't consider themselves part of the rich, and why Clinton is including them in the middle class. She's trying to build a big of a base as possible.

A physician who earns $250K working 60 hours a week, paying back on his $300k loans (that accrue at 6.5% a year) is NOT rich.

 

[Makai]

A physician who earns $250K working 60 hours a week, paying back on his $300k loans (that accrue at 6.5% a year) is NOT rich.

Their disposable income is probably more than 90% of people's gross income.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

IDK man I'd believe the one with kids not being able to take that hit.

Kids are fucking expensive.

Man fuck that, I'm married with 5 kids and you'd have to be a imbecile for that math to work, which you really can't be an imbecile and make 650k.


SUCH MATH.

 

[Tripon]

A physician who earns $250K working 60 hours a week, paying back on his $300k loans (that accrue at 6.5% a year) is NOT rich.

If you have to put that many qualifiers to get to the not rich part, I think you have an issue of the core question on "are you rich?"

Eventually, that doctor will pay off their loans, and they will still pull a $300k salary vs. A person who only makes $30k a year with no loans.

 

[rando14]

Their disposable income is probably more than 90% of people's gross income.

Shouldn't it be, though? Even so, I'd hardly say $250 is Rich. Upper middle class, sure.

If you have to put that many qualifiers to get to the not rich part, I think you have an issue of the core question on "are you rich?"

Eventually, that doctor will pay off their loans, and they will still pull a $300k salary vs. A person who only makes $30k a year with no loans.

Your original statement was an extremely black/white opinion so I provided one scenario that reveals gray.