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[GillianSeed79]

I'm a member of Cop Defense force, but it seems this could have been handled better. I live in bumfuck Egypt in the south where not only is killing deer a rite of passage, the first day of hunting season is a holiday. Even then, though, when we had a deer stray into downtown and jump through a glass window into a main street business the cops went out of their way to call a guy who tranqed the poor thing instead of killing it.

 

[ToxicAdam]

You're cute. You keep getting smacked down and suddenly feel empowered because eznark is here to defend you :lol

Defend me from what? Again .. please be specific when you are trying to speak. Your generalities just make you look like a babbling idiot.


I just replied. I'm winning now, Charlie.

 

[eznark]

They need to undergo psychological evaluation and training because they failed to assess the threat level.

Again, if you read the OP:



The officer failed to evaluate the threat level and discharged his firearm several times in a residential neighborhood.

:lol


The officer who discharged his weapon wasn't given the authority to assess the threat level. He was ordered to kill the deer.

Good job on finally getting around to reading the article though.

 

[AFreak]

D'oe!

A deer!

 

[CharlieDigital]

:lol


The officer who discharged his weapon wasn't given the authority to assess the threat level. He was ordered to kill the deer.

Good job on finally getting around to reading the article though.

It really doesn't matter; I make no distinction. First, Terrance West, the officer that ordered the shooting should be evaluated as well since his decision making and threat assessment is in question here. Second the officer that shot should also be evaluated given that he should have assessed the threat level and offered an alternative resolution.

I don't make a distinction between the shooter and the officer that ordered the shooting; both failed to do their jobs and discharged firearms in a residential area for a non-threatening situation. Both raise serious doubts about their ability to properly assess threat levels before discharging their firearms.

The fact that it occurred in a residential area -- someone's back yard -- makes it even more disturbing. A serious lack of judgment.

 

[Boogie]

I'm a member of Cop Defense force, but it seems this could have been handled better.

oh, of course it could have been handled better.

For obvious example, the police could have tasered the deer.

But wait!

Because of the political hoopla surrounding tasers over the past few years, police forces and individual police officers are less likely to use tasers because of the media consequences of using the device.

hell, we had a thread a few months ago where Toronto police tasered a deer and some posters criticized and/or mocked police for doing so.

So, you have an ideal situation where police could have tasered the deer, but you have an environment that has developed, because of media scrutiny and unwarranted public outrage where police are increasingly unwilling to use the devices....

A rational person will look at such a situation and see how the atmosphere for policing is becoming quite a bit more stressful and difficult for honest officers just trying to do the best job they can....

The officer who discharged his weapon wasn't given the authority to assess the threat level. He was ordered to kill the deer.

Nitpick: This should be irrelevant. No one can order you to discharge deadly force. That decision can be made by the officer discharging his weapon, and him alone.

 

[Sanjuro]

Thinking outside the box here so bear with me. What if the deer was made out of chocolate?

 

[eznark]

It really doesn't matter; I make no distinction. First, Terrance West, the officer that ordered the shooting should be evaluated as well since his decision making and threat assessment is in question here. Second the officer that shot should also be evaluated given that he should have assessed the threat level and offered an alternative resolution.

I don't make a distinction between the shooter and the officer that ordered the shooting; both failed to do their jobs and discharged firearms in a residential area for a non-threatening situation. Both raise serious doubts about their ability to properly assess threat levels before discharging their firearms.

The fact that it occurred in a residential area -- someone's back yard -- makes it even more disturbing. A serious lack of judgment.

You didn't make a distinction because you didn't read the article, as such you didn't know more than one officer was on the scene. Nice revisionist fiction though.

 

[RyanDG]

...for a non-threatening situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ut0KUHO9E


(I'll repeat again - a deer that's roughly a year old absolutely does have the strength and ability to cause damage if handled incorrectly. It's not accurate to call this a 'non-threatening situation', because there is absolutely a danger with a cornered, wild animal -- despite what 'witnesses' claim to the contrary.)

 

[CharlieDigital]

You didn't make a distinction because you didn't read the article, as such you didn't know more than one officer was on the scene. Nice revisionist fiction though.

You're arguing a point that almost doesn't matter. The fact that any officer would discharge their firearm in a residential neighborhood in a non-life threatening situation is worrisome in and of itself. See Boogie's post.

oh, of course it could have been handled better.

...

Nitpick: This should be irrelevant. No one can order you to discharge deadly force. That decision can be made by the officer discharging his weapon, and him alone.

 

[ToxicAdam]

residential area -- someone's back yard -- makes it even more disturbing. A serious lack of judgment.

500 words and 7 replies to eventually state the obvious that was mentioned half a dozen times on the first page. Good job, genius. You really brought the needed insight this thread was missing.

 

[CharlieDigital]

500 words and 7 replies to eventually state the obvious that was mentioned half a dozen times on the first page. Good job, genius. You really brought the needed insight this thread was missing.

Your boy ez is still arguing about it.

 

[Boogie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ut0KUHO9E


(I'll repeat again - a deer that's roughly a year old absolutely does have the strength and ability to cause damage if handled incorrectly. It's not accurate to call this a 'non-threatening situation', because there is absolutely a danger with a cornered, wild animal -- despite what 'witnesses' claim to the contrary.)

also correct. There's almost no way you can describe encountering a cornered, wild animal as a "non-threatening situation".

 

[eznark]

They need to undergo psychological evaluation and training because they failed to assess the threat level.

Wild animals are unpredictable. I agree that the officer should have been able to kill the animal in a more controlled animal, I can say with 90% certainty that I could have put the animal down with two shots from the OPD's recommended 40 S&W caliber service weapon. As I said yesterday when this thread was still decent, this officer needs some serious range time.

Your boy ez is still arguing about it.

as of at least a week ago, toxicadam is dead to me

 

[ToxicAdam]

Your boy ez is still arguing about it.

Not Ez's fault he has locked horns with an OCD poster that can't stop replying, never admits when he makes a mistake and has unlimited time.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Not Ez's fault he has locked horns with an OCD poster that can't stop replying, never admits when he makes a mistake and has unlimited time.

∞

But you should talk with your 11.14 ppd

as of at least a week ago, toxicadam is dead to me

What, just because he doesn't want to die from hypertension related diseases?

 

[ToxicAdam]

∞

You have time to reply to this, but not my post on the statistics about why deer are pests? Wha happened?

 

[Boogie]

I agree that the officer should have been able to kill the animal in a more controlled animal, I can say with 90% certainty that I could have put the animal down with two shots from the OPD's recommended 40 S&W caliber service weapon. As I said yesterday when this thread was still decent, this officer needs some serious range time.

eh, maybe, but that's a silly assertion to make when you weren't there and it's not your ass on the line. Also when you don't (so far as I know) know that the officer in question was packing a .40 rather than a 9 mil.

 

[CharlieDigital]

You have time to reply to this, but not my post on the statistics about why deer are pests? Wha happened?

The definition of "pest" is mostly a human concept and fairly arbitrary. Dogs are pests to some people because they bark too loud or leave their droppings on lawns. Some people find cats to be pests. Mice and rodents were pests that carried the plague, yet they are also tools of science that have enabled medical research and advances that would not have been possible otherwise. Are mice pests or are they the perfect tool for medical experiments? Are they both? I can't prove whether deer are pests one way or another and neither do I care; the label is purely arbitrary.

 

[eznark]

eh, maybe, but that's a silly assertion to make when you weren't there and it's not your ass on the line. Also when you don't (so far as I know) know that the officer in question was packing a .40 rather than a 9 mil.

Strangely enough (although I imagine most CA journalists wouldn't know a hand gun from a hand job) not a single article has said why type of service weapon the officer had.

I did browse a random cop forum I found via google and they claim that in Oakland, carrying a .9 mm is frowned upon.

 

[ToxicAdam]

The definition of "pest" is mostly a human concept and fairly arbitrary. Dogs are pests to some people because they bark too loud or leave their droppings on lawns. Some people find cats to be pests. Mice and rodents were pests that carried the plague, yet they are also tools of science that have enabled medical research and advances that would not have been possible otherwise. Are mice pests or are they the perfect tool for medical experiments? Are they both? I can't prove whether deer are pests one way or another and neither do I care; the label is purely arbitrary.

:lol Nice semantic backpedal. Pathetic.

 

[CharlieDigital]

:lol Nice backpedal. Pathetic.

Backpedal on what? I'm pretty neutral as far as deer go.

I could care less that they killed a deer. Living in the woods, I see dead deer by the side of the road all the time. While I wouldn't go out of my way to kill a deer, I don't find it odd at all. I don't personally find them a pest -- deer do what deer do. They eat my bushes in the winter and I curse them in the spring.

What's your point? I don't get it. Can't an individual be neutral on deer?

 

[Boogie]

The definition of "pest" is mostly a human concept and fairly arbitrary. Dogs are pests to some people because they bark too loud or leave their droppings on lawns. Some people find cats to be pests. Mice and rodents were pests that carried the plague, yet they are also tools of science that have enabled medical research and advances that would not have been possible otherwise. Are mice pests or are they the perfect tool for medical experiments? Are they both? I can't prove whether deer are pests one way or another and neither do I care; the label is purely arbitrary.

Deer are pests in the sense that they are a serious danger to human life on roads, and even a danger if a human encounters one on foot. (though they're more likely to just run away in the latter case). That's pretty much the bottom line, and any disputing that is just being obtuse.

Strangely enough (although I imagine most CA journalists wouldn't know a hand gun from a hand job) not a single article has said why type of service weapon the officer had.

Especially since becoming a police officer, I have developed an increasingly dim view of the media's competence.

I did browse a random cop forum I found via google and they claim that in Oakland, carrying a .9 mm is frowned upon.

Yes, that remains a rather important part. I'm not very familiar with the capabilities of .40 cal handguns. RCMP standard issue leaves no leeway, we carry 9 mils. So I can assert how insufficient a 9 mil is for quickly and efficiently putting down wild game, but I can't offer any opinion on .40 cal rounds.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Deer are pests in the sense that they are a serious danger to human life on roads, and even a danger if a human encounters one on foot. (though they're more likely to just run away in the latter case). That's pretty much the bottom line, and any disputing that is just being obtuse.

According to this criteria, so are moose, bison, bears, and mountain lions. Would you label them pests?

 

[GillianSeed79]

also correct. There's almost no way you can describe encountering a cornered, wild animal as a "non-threatening situation".

Agree. People need to realize deer aren't fucking bambi even if they are a year old. Also people need to realize animal control officers aren't really trained to deal with wild animals per se. We're talking dogs and cats stuff. What you are left with is a DNR officer or game warden. If you are lucky and you live in a small state you may get a response time of a half hour. That's if the guy is stationed in your county. A place like Oakland? I imagine they are going to have to wait a long time. Again, I think it could have been handled better, but if the story was that a liquor store was robbed or a woman was raped while cops were babysitting a deer people would be up in arms.

The only thing I'm kind of upset about is the 6-7 shots thing. Is that official though? I know most cops if they sneeze on their revolver they have to go through a review.

 

[eznark]

Yeah, I have both and I would much, MUCH rather use a 40sw to penetrate the skull of a wild animal.

My brother in law stopped by and since he is a true hunting nut I asked him if he's ever finished a deer with a hand gun, and he claims he did end a hind winged doe with a Springfield XD9 with no problems. He guessed it would have taken one shot but he double tapped it, shoulder-head.

 

[Boogie]

According to this criteria, so are moose, bison, bears, and mountain lions. Would you label them pests?

At least, so far as they interact with human populations.

(though, nitpicking, I would intuitively say that the bison population probably remains so small as to offer almost no threat relative to that posed by deer on the roads. Same goes for mountain lions. Moose are more likely to be encountered on roads than the previous two species, but still far less than deer.

Bears are a different matter entirely. Less of a risk of roadside collisions, and more of a danger for campers and hikers who leave scents lying out overnight.)

edit: and, without trying to sound too condescending or arrogant, I probably know a bit more about the dangers posed by such species, just given your geographic location vs. the corporate knowledge I have through my work. I mean, comparing the danger posed to humans by deer vs. by mountain lions or bison? yeah....

just as an example, wiki says there are 1.5 million deer-vehicle collisions in the USA per year, whereas there are only 3,000 total Wood Bison in the wild in existence in North America. total breeding population of mountain lions? estimated at 50,000. I doubt the total populations of NA bison + bears + mountain lions would even match that number of deer collisions. i don't think you did your research on the species you threw out in that post...

Yeah, I have both and I would much, MUCH rather use a 40sw to penetrate the skull of a wild animal.

I wouldn't want to use anything less than a shotgun slug, myself. Fortunately, that's pretty standard for my organization in rural areas.

 

[ToxicAdam]

What is your definition if IS, though? I need to understand how your perception on what the definition of every word before we go forward. If I'm going to talk to a loon, I want some common ground we can start from.

The definition of "pest" is mostly a human concept

You're right. As opposed to the more popular orangutan concept or the dolphin concept of what a pest is. There was a brilliant book written by that famous bottlenose.

Dogs are pests to some people because they bark too loud or leave their droppings on lawns

Any stats on how many deaths and destroyed automobiles due to barking and dog poop? Must be in millions!

rodents were pests that carried the plague

Yes ... and they were summarily KILLED because of that. They spread disease (like deer) and were eliminated because of this. Muskrats are killed in New Orleans because they are likely to carry disease. That's what you do to pests.

According to this criteria, so are moose, bison, bears, and mountain lions. Would you label them pests?

Any stats to show that their number of incidents rival that of deer? Otherwise, you're just spouting off bullshit.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Yes ... and they were summarily KILLED because of that. They spread disease (like deer) and were eliminated because of this. Muskrats are killed in New Orleans because they are likely to carry disease. That's what you do to pests.

Rats and mice have also been raised, bred, and sold for scientific research for centuries. What's your point?

I really don't get it. Again, "pest" is pretty arbitrary. Any animal can be a pest in the right circumstance or in the context of a particular individual. Some people find clovers repulsive on their lawns, others see it as a natural mechanism to fix nitrogen in the soil. I don't understand why you're so eager to debate this point.

Does your pettiness know no bounds?

 

[ToxicAdam]

Rats and mice have also been raised, bred, and sold for scientific research for centuries. What's your point?

Why are you playing the shell game again? We are talking about WILD deer. Not domesticated animals used in scientific research.


Let's try to stay on the topic here.

 

[CharlieDigital]

ToxicAdam
Adventures in Sophistry
(Today, 12:12 AM)
Reply | Quote

Also, check your PM :lol

 

[ToxicAdam]

White flag

Yup, that's about right.

 

[Dead Man]

I can't even believe I'm taking the bait but...

what experience with firearms do you have? Once again it sounds an awful lot like you're shooting your mouth off on topics you aren't informed about.

A handgun bullet is much smaller (much less mass), travels at a much slower velocity, and decelerates much more rapidly than a deer slug or rifled bullet.

Hunters buy specific rounds for hunting deer, because it takes a larger ordinance to kill a deer humanely (you want the round to do enough damage to kill it outright... not wound it).

Add in a miss or two, and add in the desire by the cop to kill the deer VERY quickly after the first bullet hit it, and 6 shots fired from a sidearm isn't too insane.

So... yeah. Clearly not the optimal weapon. But people saying "omg six shots!" remind me of news stories were the newspaper freaks out about 17 shots being fired at some suspect like it's overkill, when in truth it's the equiv. of every cop on the scene just firing twice, or something.

Wow. You really have not read my posts, have you? In the one you quoted I said IT WAS THE WRONG FUCKING FIREARM. But hey, years in the Army, and years shooting recreationally have taught me nothing about firearms, right? Fuck you. I say again. If it takes you 6 hots to kill an animal, you have the wrong weapon, or no idea what you are doing.

idahoblue continues to demonstrate a dedication to being a fuckwad.

Police, or hunters, who have to routinely deal with wild game know that a 9 mil is not sufficient to take down almost any wild animal, certainly not a deer. Criticizing the cop for the number of shots he took on the deer is absolutely retarded.

It may not have been the best course of action, but heckling him for the number of rounds he fired only reveals your own ignorance.

And, in general terms, I want to support kharvey16. Whether I agree with him or not (and I think I'm only about 75/25 in terms of our positions on controversial threads) he almost always tries to take the position of a reasonable, analytical person. And he is right that too many people on these boards jump to the knee-jerk, emotional reaction, and then defend that position to the death, no matter what facts are presented against them.

Nice, another person that does not read. Did you see the part where I said he DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS DOING OR HAD THE WRONG WEAPON? Fucking hell. I know you have a kneejerk response to any cop criticism on the board Boogie, but to say that Fuck you.

If it wasn't the best course of action, as you say, there was obviously a better one. No?

 

[Boogie]

If it takes you 6 hots to kill an animal, you have the wrong weapon, or no idea what you are doing.

The former, yes. The latter, no. If the former, how is that the cop's fault?

Nice, another person that does not read. Did you see the part where I said he DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS DOING OR HAD THE WRONG WEAPON? Fucking hell. I know you have a kneejerk response to any cop criticism on the board Boogie, but to say that Fuck you.

If the officer only has one weapon, then there is no sense in criticizing him for the weapon he used to deal with the situation, period.

I did read this:

Oh really? Got numbers to back up that wild assertion? Out of control? Really?

and then in the face of this:

Deer-related crashes have increased more than 18 percent in the past five years.

you dismissed it as:

18% in five years mean the deer population is out of control? LOL, how about more people driving in what were rural areas? :lol

By all means, call anyone in your state's Wildlife/Natural Resources Department and ask them about the deer population. They'll tell you the exact same thing. I guarantee you.

Here's an example from Pennsylvania.

My family operates a small dairy farm in Ohio and we grow crops to feed our herd. We're getting more damage to our crops from deer than we've ever gotten since my family started our farm 80 years ago.

which, right there, cements your position as a jackass, as far as I am concerned.

I mean, when I ask for facts countering my position, and then receive them, I will usually concede the point, rather than deflect and continue to act like an arrogant douche.

If it wasn't the best course of action, as you say, there was obviously a better one. No?

Was there a better course of action? yep. I believe I've said that already in this thread. But that comes with its own issues.


Nevermind the fact that I take exception to the idea that I have a "kneejerk reaction to any cop criticism on the board". Most reasonable posters would, I think, agree that that is quite false. Especially since, as an important distinction, I have not explicitly defended the officer's actions in this case. I have merely asserted that you are one of those who has made unsupported assertions on this topic, and stuck to them, bullheadedly.

 

[Dead Man]

The former, yes. The latter, no. If the former, how is that the cop's fault?


No, but I did read this:

and then in the face of this:

you dismissed it as:

which, right there, cements your position as a jackass, as far as I am concerned.

I mean, when I ask for facts countering my position, and then receive them, I will usually concede the point, rather than deflect and continue to act like an arrogant douche.

Nevermind the fact that I take exception to the idea that I have a "kneejerk reaction to any cop criticism on the board". Most reasonable posters would, I think, agree that that is quite false. Especially since, as an important distinction, I have not explicitly defended the officer's actions in this case. I have merely asserted that you are one of those who has made unsupported assertions on this topic, and stuck to them, bullheadedly.

Fucking hell, still not reading I see.

Yeah, I do want people making claims to back them up. Fancy that. And increased human/animal interactions is not proof of out of control populations. Others in the thread have added info that may support deer populations being larger than is optimal, for several reasons.

But hey, I guess you can be a jackass all you want. Cool. You have fun with your wounded pride and your sense of authority.

Edit: And when did I jump in this cops shit, anyway? If he did not know what he was doing, that is not his fault either, but still a concern. If he had the wrong weapon, that MAY have been his fault if his department allows other calibres.

Edit2: And saying you have a kneejerk reaction was not meant to be an insult, I think you do, but it is completely understandable with the amount of 'cop hate' that flows on this board sometimes. But hey, I'm just a bullheaded fuckwad.

 

[Stinkles]

Wild animals are unpredictable. I agree that the officer should have been able to kill the animal in a more controlled animal, I can say with 90% certainty that I could have put the animal down with two shots from the OPD's recommended 40 S&W caliber service weapon. As I said yesterday when this thread was still decent, this officer needs some serious range time.

I am an OK to decent shot with a pistol and I could have taken a Doe out with one or two shots at the range described. I'd have put one in its center mass and hopefully a coup de grace in its dome. But I wouldn't have. I'd have gotten everyone away from the deer, asked for a glass of water and waited for the game service, who'd have wrapped it in a tarp, drove down the block, unrolled the Doe on the other side of the fence in the wooded area.

 

[geeko]

A deer!

A female deer!

 

[Trojita]

again what if that deer had bolted into a busy street putting drivers at risk?

"What if's" aren't really the best defense.