Alpha-Bromega
Member
jmdajr said:
the very fabric of our economic system is, after this bust, we'll find another. and the ones who will be benefitting are the financial institutions while we take another and convince ourselves that we deserved it.
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Obama announces studen loan relief
- Thread starter Davedough
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the very fabric of our economic system is, after this bust, we'll find another. and the ones who will be benefitting are the financial institutions while we take another and convince ourselves that we deserved it.
ThisWreckage
Banned
There are really some ignorant posts in this thread. We're at the point in U.S. educational history where one either takes out loans and attends university or declines on loans and does not attend university. There are exceptions, but how many people did you go to university with that had to take out loans? Likely an overwhelming majority. Loans are directly tethered to the university experience, thus one has to take out loans. Sure, you can decline, but there's no way you'll make it through unless your family is wealthy and can foot the bill. No loans, no degree. That's where we are at now. It doesn't matter if you go in state or not, because even if you're from NC and you attend a NC university you're still have to take out loans. Getting reamed less is still getting reamed. A gun is essentially pointed at your head as a student.
Clevinger said:
Actually it's not 500 Euro any longer in most German federal states. Only a few of them charge you 500 Euro, most just take about 200 Euro (280 USD) administration fee per semester (that 50 stuff on the above mentioned website is mostly wrong).
But you usually get free transportation in your state, which is pretty awesome actually.
And don't forget, that you still need money for accomodation, books, general living expenses etc. These insane amounts in the US seem to cover at least all of that. Ehhh, they do, right?
Alpha-Bromega
Member
Kola said:
Are you German? my advisor ladies in Baden-Württemburg just said this was the first year WITHOUT admin fees. so it's almost completely 'free' except for social fees, which is i think 58 that even i as an Auslander had to pay and am happy to do so.
When the benefits of taxation are freaking awesome and you don't have a laughably corrupt banking cartel stealing your tax dollars, you're more than willing to pay those taxes. When i start working ill pay those taxes with a smile, unlike back in the U.S.
demosthenes
Member
Alpha-Bromega said:
Why is 4k a year too expensive to live on campus? Really. For housing, food, professor salaries, administrative salaries, all the stuff that comes w/ living on campus, why is that too much?
Alpha-Bromega
Member
demosthenes said:
oh no! i just meant for tuition. no that's a perfectly acceptable amount including all those things as well, no argument at all.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Shit, that's less then my monthly rent. I could afford to quit my dull job and focus on my research work, not to mention probably increasing my grades.Kola said:Actually it's not 500 Euro any longer in most German federal states. Only a few of them charge you 500 Euro, most just take about 200 Euro (280 USD) administration fee per semester (that 50 stuff on the above mentioned website is mostly wrong).
But you usually get free transportation in your state, which is pretty awesome actually.
And don't forget, that you still need money for accomodation, books, general living expenses etc. This insane amounts in the US seem to cover at least all of that. Ehhh, they do, right?
Fragamemnon
Member
Changing the minimum payment helps younger people make ends meet, but doesn't affect the long-term drag on income (which in turn dramtically affects household wealth and home ownership) and the overall need to work to deleverage household debt in the US as a means of getting consumer spending back up.
A better answer to this would be to drive long term wage inflation so the debt isn't so crippling , but the rentier class in control of our economic policy will have none of that.
A better answer to this would be to drive long term wage inflation so the debt isn't so crippling , but the rentier class in control of our economic policy will have none of that.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
The_Technomancer said:
just think of the tears i cry as i pay American tuition to attend German Uni...
Alpha-Bromega said:
Studied mostly in Niedersachsen, northern Germany. I always paid about 180 (250 USD) administration fee per semester (that is probably the same thing as your "social fee"). I think they just recently abolished those 500 tuitions fees in your state because protests went mad. Good thing for us students.
Alpha-Bromega said:
It has advantages and disadvantages. I prefer it the way we do it in Northern Europe with social democracy and all. But I guess it can be quite a good thing too, if you don't have to pay that many taxes and take care for yourself (if you are able to), as long as student scholarships are readily available. With sometimes more than 10000 USD tuition fees per year, I think, the situation in the US gets "slightly" out of control. It can only be a good thing if a debate regarding that is being started by Obama I guess.
plasticpassion said:
But you can't just generalize things off saying that it isn't possible for someone to make that much with those degrees.
Statistically those degrees may not be the "good paying" ones but there are people who have gotten degrees in those fields that make a decent amount and have been able to pay off their debt.
On the flip side there are also a good number who went to school for "good paying" degrees who are struggling to find a job that pays what they expected who are also struggling to pay off debt.
The whole, "it's their fault" is BS in my opinion since different students are in different situations and/or face different problems. Some may have had enough money to pay off all of their school bills at first until out of no where their tuition increases.
I was doing well personally. I would have graduated debt free if it wasn't for the tuition increase that happen this past year. I'm not going to be in major debt (about $4,000) but it still came pretty much out of nowhere.
I mean, how can you blame students for them wanting to do the right thing in the view of American society? The whole "if you don't go to school, you're a loser" is pushed so much by media, teachers, parents, guidance counselors, etc. that it's a bit surprising to see people say "it's the student's fault". Don't get me wrong, I do agree that more students should think more wisely about paying for college, but I think some of you aren't taking into consideration how much going to college is pushed on to kids regardless of if they know what they want to do with their life or not (since many teachers/counselors will tell kids that they will find out when they go to college).
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'm going to enjoy the 3 years I can't spend a dime of my own money, living in my parent's house, having them drive me to work and pay for my food just so I can pay off my student loan
That's real efficient use of fresh new talent in the work force
(by the way I'm getting a New Media degree so it's not a waste either)
That's real efficient use of fresh new talent in the work force
(by the way I'm getting a New Media degree so it's not a waste either)
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
come and study in Denmark. You get 900$ a month from the government to study.Clevinger said:
balladofwindfishes said:
I'm going to pay off my debt within 6 months of graduating because I went to a in-state university and lived at home. I'm in no way opposed to changes (I welcome any) but I find it hard to believe that people couldn't avoid tons of costs by just attending a local state/community college.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
Or, how about we improve K-12 so that college is less necessary?
Instead of making kids take tests every year to make sure material is being covered at the end when it's too late, audit the classes and make sure they're covering all the required material, like is done with AP Classes now. We flew by the seat of our pants in AP Bio, but somehow, we all stepped up to the challenge, and I think the same can be said for everyone.
With more covered in K-12, shorten college to 2-3 years, cutting out the majority of Gen Eds.
Beyond that, make Universities cut costs. At the University of Iowa, we have Secretaries making $22/hour, and there's a movement to switch the University over to Solar power, from coal. Yeah, solar power would be great, but buying enough panels to power a Big 10 University? LOL, raising tuition.
Instead of making kids take tests every year to make sure material is being covered at the end when it's too late, audit the classes and make sure they're covering all the required material, like is done with AP Classes now. We flew by the seat of our pants in AP Bio, but somehow, we all stepped up to the challenge, and I think the same can be said for everyone.
With more covered in K-12, shorten college to 2-3 years, cutting out the majority of Gen Eds.
Beyond that, make Universities cut costs. At the University of Iowa, we have Secretaries making $22/hour, and there's a movement to switch the University over to Solar power, from coal. Yeah, solar power would be great, but buying enough panels to power a Big 10 University? LOL, raising tuition.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
ne ne, bin leider kein Deutscher ;'(Kola said:Studied mostly in Niedersachsen, northern Germany. I always paid about 180 (250 USD) administration fee per semester (that is probably the same thing as your "social fee"). I think they just recently abolished those 500 tuitions fees in your state because protests went mad. Good thing for us students.
That's the whole issue, is that we as a whole are simply unable to afford education without taking out loans. Loans, not scholarships, which are more rare here in the U.S. and by definition will only go out to a few people rather than people just as skilled.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
Kola said:
yeah that's kind of the point; you can't just go in, take their benefits and then bust out. The Danes will be repaying that for the rest of their working lives by constant contributing back, but it's worth it as it allows many to become highly educated without the crippling debt of education how we have it here. Not a Dane i've spoken to would have it any other way, the high earners pay a shit ton and you know what they tell me? "i was fortunate, others aren't as much, why shouldn't they be able to attend Uni or have healthcare?"
balladofwindfishes
Member
I can't live at home and go to a state college that had the program I wanted(no state college around me offered a New Media style program), it would be either/or and there were some issues I had that required me to live at home anyway, so I basically either had to change what I wanted to do in life, or fork up some extra moneyKalnos said:
...it's not always as cut and dry as "just go to a state college!" There's a human element to this whole thing, and I was not able to live away from home, so I had to do what I had to do to get the degree in the program I wanted.
The Albatross
Member
Just to eliminate a few myths about American academia:
- Colleges don't raise tuition for no reason. This is a popular myth amongst college campuses, that colleges raise tuition just so that they are magically seen as better schools or that they are financially competitive with their rivals. This is ridiculous, and the opposite is true: Private colleges are ALWAYS trying to cost less than their rivals until it is financially impossible to do so.
- Tuition pays the salaries and benefits of your professors, administrative staff, and the academic development of the school. The majority of accredited, four year colleges are private not for profit colleges (99%+), and all of those schools by law, have to remain not for profit. With the exception of a small handful of well known for-profit colleges, which represent an industry that should be more regulated (U. of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT-Tech, etc), every college that you've ever heard of is not for profit. Most of the tuition that your school collects goes directly into paying salaries and benefits of your professors. While the increase in tuition is directly tied to government programs that have supported private not-profit academic institutions, the motivator behind this increase is faculty/staff salary and benefits.
Being a professor was long considered a labor of love, you went into higher ed accepting that you would have a lower salary than other professionals in your field, but that you would be doing this because you love it. This theory, in the last 20 years, has been expunged from college campuses, as they have tried to employ business standards to attract better professors and because students always support raises and benefits for their faculty. Whenever the "Fair wage" debate comes up with faculty and staff at a college, guess where students always fall on the debate?
- Tuition (usually) does not pay for sports teams or institutional development like unnecessary new building. Tuition, at most private colleges, strictly goes to academic spending.
- Scholarships are not granted out of thin air. Colleges don't say, "Well, you were smart, so we're going to just eliminate your tuition and we'll collect less money from you." Scholarships, at nearly every school, come from Alumni Donations, gifts, and capital campaigns. The $40,000 bill still has to be paid, it's not just lost money or forgiven money, because, remember, your professors still need salaries.
plasticpassion
Member
Bgamer90 said:
You're right, but you can still achieve those degrees with more reasonable means - ie public universities or community colleges. I recognize it is a flawed idea and not nearly responsible for the majority of the debt, but there is some logic to it. For example, when I was in high school I was recruited for Johnson and Wales for their culinary school. I can't imagine where I would be now if I had chosen that route (with their insanely high private tuition).
So yeah, I was mainly thinking about instances where people either go out of state and have to pay insane out of state tuitions (correct me if I'm wrong - I went to college in NC, and if I were to go out of state, tuition would have been much more than in state) or private colleges and get loans for all of it.
Hari Seldon
Member
Mr. Wonderful said:
This is the biggest issue. Universities have no incentive to cut costs, because virtually anyone can get a college loan regardless of income. If as a nation, we think that everyone attending college is a good thing and it should be subsidized in some way, then we also have to regulate University spending. You can't just subsidize one end of the path and not regulate the other, that is ridiculous every fucking time it is done. Hell, as much bullshit as military contractors get, at least they are fucking audited. Who audits university expenses? Federal money is going to them in terms of loan subsidizes, so they should be audited.
All those people in Europe saying how cheap your unis are, does your unis have huge ridiculous sports programs? Do they have zero regulations in terms of spending?
Oblivionmancer
Member
Valkyr Junkie said:
Makes sense now. Care to lend me your time machine so I can relay the message to my 18 year old self?
Dahellisdat
Member
What pisses me off is that my alma mater has the gall to fucking call me and ask me to donate more of my money to them. What the fuck more do you want? You just got a like $75K out of me for my degree, and you're ripping off your current students even more. Why the fuck do you need more of my money?
Auron_Kale
Member
Still have a little over two grand left and I'm done paying my loans but man, I'm tired of shelling out money to pay for this thing monthly.
Had this been enacted sooner, I probably would've been free of the loan sooner.
Had this been enacted sooner, I probably would've been free of the loan sooner.
balladofwindfishes
Member
my college is building 3 new buildings this year, one of which is an ice rink. They just renovated their ice rink last year. They spend millions of dollars bringing in entertainment for alumni weekend.
The other buildings are for environmental science and "green degrees" which are fairly useless in the real world.
My college refuses to hire a new teacher for the Game Design program, so those kids who have special scheduling needs end up having to go 2 or 3 years over what the degree normally takes because classes are not offered enough. They've been refused every time, despite data showing they NEED this professor to continue the program of 180 students.
The Design degree has been using the same PCs for the last 2 years and have begged for new computers, they've been denied every time. Instead of doing 3 3D modeling projects, the class is only able to do 2 because the rendering time is too great to get 3 done.
Don't tell me college spend money on new professors, that programs are funded and that wasteful, inefficiant and corrupt spending doesn't exist in higher education. That tuition doesn't soley go to building dumb buildings that don't need to be built.
bill gonorrhea
Member
Speevy said:
Why cant he do the same for my credit card.. I only owe $26,000
balladofwindfishes
Member
declare bunkruptcy?bill gonorrhea said:
Alpha-Bromega
Member
Hari Seldon said:
European Unis have 2 huge benefits; no banking cartels like America has and high progressive taxation as well as the small populations to necessitate as many educated people as they can afford. I've not gone through the German system and can't speak from most experience but it's essentially built from the ground up to allocate people in their best field according to placement tests and other measurements. They have 3 different 'high' schools so to say, each focusing on preparing you for different fields. Mechanics, Management, or for University
It's something i'd love to see implemented into our country, it screams of german efficiency but i can't speak personally.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
You don´t need citizenship. You can get it if you have a visa that allows you to stay in the country indefinitely.Kola said:
demosthenes
Member
Fun fact about the public university I went to.
They lure in dean's of programs by promising them something after a few years of work. They work for 3-6 years making 6 figures, $200,000+ per year. Then they retire, teach one class a week and STILL make that 6 figures $200,000 per year.
But tuition just went up for all my friends still at the university.
They lure in dean's of programs by promising them something after a few years of work. They work for 3-6 years making 6 figures, $200,000+ per year. Then they retire, teach one class a week and STILL make that 6 figures $200,000 per year.
But tuition just went up for all my friends still at the university.
The Albatross
Member
You know what sort of loan regulations we need? Real ones, unfair ones, ones that look at your grades, your history, your family, and everything else, and project how you will perform in colleges. Your Cambridge liberal professors would launch into an uproar.
Loan regulations:
As it is now, every student loan is treated largely the same. Securing a college loan does not depend on your sex, creed, ethnic background, the neighborhood you are coming from, the high school you attended, and dozens of other factors in that contribute to statistics for 4-year graduation rates.
Beyond that, lenders treat nearly every institution the same, which they are not. So, that dream school that you just got into, say it was a bit of a stretch for you, but you came off the wait list and got into the college you've always wnted to go to... the one with the beautiful campus and the great campus life? Well, that school has a lower 4-year graduation rate than your safety school for students of your performance level. Are you willing to accept the idea that your loan lendor determines where you should go to college?
*edit*
Adding an edit to this: I am against the idea of limiting access to colleges and against lendor regulations that would limit access. This post, the list above, is showing what would happen if lendors were to lend to students who would statistically be able to pay back their loans. The current system that we have enables students to go to college, by hinging loans only on the ability to pay them back based on demographic statistics or by academic program, we would be eliminating the ability for millions of people to go to the colleges that they want to go to and that they get into.
Loan regulations:
- From a certain neighborhood in an urban city? There's a lower graduation rate from there, you disqualify for a loan or need to take a higher interest rate.
- Are you male? Male's have lower graduation rates than females, you disqualify for a loan or need to take a higher interest rate.
- You got a B- in History and a C in English your Sophomore year of High School? Yikes, from our statistics, students who got a B- in History and a C in English have a much lower likelihood of graduating from college -- Sorry, you're disqualified, or you ca borrow at a higher rate.
- What do you want to study? Anything other than business, economics, or engineering? If so, sorry, our statistics show that you will make 30% less after graduating, we can't give you a loan.
- Are you African American or Latino? Our statistics show that these backgrounds graduate at at a lower rate than other backgrounds, you disqualify for a loan.
- Attended public high school? Hmmm, well, the performance rates of your high school from 1981 - 1998 were low, that disqualifies you from a loan.
As it is now, every student loan is treated largely the same. Securing a college loan does not depend on your sex, creed, ethnic background, the neighborhood you are coming from, the high school you attended, and dozens of other factors in that contribute to statistics for 4-year graduation rates.
Beyond that, lenders treat nearly every institution the same, which they are not. So, that dream school that you just got into, say it was a bit of a stretch for you, but you came off the wait list and got into the college you've always wnted to go to... the one with the beautiful campus and the great campus life? Well, that school has a lower 4-year graduation rate than your safety school for students of your performance level. Are you willing to accept the idea that your loan lendor determines where you should go to college?
*edit*
Adding an edit to this: I am against the idea of limiting access to colleges and against lendor regulations that would limit access. This post, the list above, is showing what would happen if lendors were to lend to students who would statistically be able to pay back their loans. The current system that we have enables students to go to college, by hinging loans only on the ability to pay them back based on demographic statistics or by academic program, we would be eliminating the ability for millions of people to go to the colleges that they want to go to and that they get into.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Just like with every other investment, you have to evaluate the cost/benefit ratio before you jump in. I could support limited debt forgiveness for students who go to public colleges. For instance, if you go to a public school then the tuition and books portion of your debt will be forgiven upon graduation. Dorm costs, too, if there's no school close to where you live. If you decided to buy an awesome gaming rig with your excess loan money then you should have to pay for that bad boy.
Go a couple of years and drop out? Start paying it back or get back into school.
Choose a private school over a public school and you don't have the money to pay for it? Maybe you need to re-evaluate your choice of schools.
There has to be a solution somewhere to increase access to education after high school.
Go a couple of years and drop out? Start paying it back or get back into school.
Choose a private school over a public school and you don't have the money to pay for it? Maybe you need to re-evaluate your choice of schools.
There has to be a solution somewhere to increase access to education after high school.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
I love people in this thread yelling "You took out the loan therefore you must pay it!" without looking at the giant elephant in the room which is the fact that 18 year olds aren't the most experienced with economics.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
The Albatross said:
are you joking with this? because it's riddled to the core with just, well, wrong.
especially when the tuition itself being high is the main issue, all these others stem from it.
balladofwindfishes
Member
We already have an environment science buildings and some building for the sole purpose of recycling research and degrees, that's wasted buildings since those degrees are tiny. :/apana said:
I'm glad you read my post, because I never said any of thatTenks said:
balladofwindfishes said:
I can relate.
I have a few friends who had to pay for an extra year of school because of cut backs. Basically, classes that they needed in order to graduate got cut in size and therefore they had to wait another semester to take them due to either the class filling up fast or due to the class not being available at a time in which they can go due to the jobs that they had. So basically they had to pay for a full semester just to take one class.
I'm a senior and I thus can sign up for classes before anyone else. But I can't sign up until I pay the bill that came from the recent tuition increase. Now fortunately, I have enough to pay for the bill but if I didn't, I more than likely wouldn't be able to take the class I need in order to graduate since the number of rooms for the class have been reduced due to budget cuts and therefore, the open spots would go VERY quick (and they already did for the class pre-budget cuts). It's such BS.
So yeah, the whole "it's their debt, so it's their fault" line of thinking in terms of this is pretty ignorant.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
balladofwindfishes said:
it's to prepare for an imagined influx of those who wil be receiving those degrees. it's smart. if only college was affordable there'd be a lot more people getting those degrees and pushing us towards a future of clean energy.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
The Albatross said:
Just so that everybody knows, this is a troll post.
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