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[Korey]

Are we talking about "legal" rights or just the title of marriage. Because as far as I know, civil unions grants the same rights as marriage. I've had no interest in the topic until recently but that's what I've learned in this thread.



Well let me first shed a tiny sliver of light on my position regarding homosexuality: yes I think people are born with their current sexual orientations (so no, I don't think it's a choice) but--as Shouta more succinctly articulated my thoughts--"I don't think that homosexuality is the standard mode for living creatures"...whereas, I DO with heterosexuality. I'd go into more detail but I'd rather not risk it because it could come across as offensive.

I've actually voted for gay marriage before because I don't have a problem with two consenting adults doing whatever they want....but I would probably abstain in the future because I'm not necessarily for or against it.

This isn't about "two consenting adults doing whatever they want."

It's about people, just like you - EXACTLY like you - who are treated as less than 100% human simply because they happen to be born with one biological difference. A biological difference that is equivalent to having a different shade of skin color, or the color of their eyes, or red hair.

You're basically saying that because being right-handed is the "normal state" and being left-handed isn't, that if for some reason our society shunned left-handed people and gave them less rights than right-handed people (for example, the right to marry), that you wouldn't "necessarily be against it."

Think about that for a second.

 

[Trent Strong]

In regards to this thread and same-sex marriage, there's literally no reason to be opposed to it other than hating gays, and that 100% applies to religious reasons. People will use acceptable language doublespeak and talk in circles around outright saying it but that's what it comes down to, deep down. And now someone says "Hate is too strong a word" and the rationalization dance begins again.

That's just absurdly simplistic. Ludicrous even. Do you know any religious people? The kind of average American religious person that you'd meet in any average small American city? A lot of people believe and do things because their religion or religious leaders tell them to believe or do those things.They don't think about these things logically, they just do them. My aunt and uncle are strict Mormons and they're against gay marriage. They also have a lesbian daughter and a gay nephew, and I really, really don't think they HATE their daughter and nephew. Now, this aunt and uncle of mine are idiots, and they shouldn't be opposed to gay marriage, they shouldn't believe in the story of noah's ark, or adam and eve, etc. They shouldn't believe and do and million things that they believe and do, but I seriously don't think they hate their daughter and nephew.

 

[FyreWulff]

About time he's come out and said it, and he might as well. This isn't going to lose him the people that were voting for Romney anyway. Plus, I'd like to see Romney actually attempt to bring this up in the debate. Right now he just kind of says it like GOP boilerplate. Does he believe in being against gay marriage enough to debate about it?

 

[jaxword]

They don't think about these things logically, they just do them. My aunt and uncle are strict Mormons and they're against gay marriage.

If they're not thinking logically, then they must be thinking emotionally/irrationally. What is their justification for being against an act that they have no business judging?

 

[soundscream]

When this comes up in the debates how is Mitt going to answer being against marriage and civil unions for the gay and lesbian soldiers currently serving their country in the military.

 

[Trent Strong]

If they're not thinking logically, then they must be thinking emotionally/irrationally. What is their justification for being against an act that they have no business judging?

My other post was dickish, sorry. But my aunt and uncle don't have any justification, the Mormon church is officially against gay marriage, so they're against gay marriage. It's as simple as that.

 

[Volimar]

When this comes up in the debates how is Mitt going to answer being against marriage and civil unions for the gay and lesbian soldiers currently serving their country in the military.

He'll just refuse to answer and talk about something else like they always do in the debates.

 

[teruterubozu]

Agreeing with news pundits this morning that Obama has to follow through on this and keep the message going. I hope this isn't just a one-and-done "I've addressed it" scenario, cuz that could hurt him down the line.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I can't wait for the inevitable right wing lecturing Obama about civil rights.

 

[jaxword]

My other post was dickish, sorry. But my aunt and uncle don't have any justification, the Mormon church is officially against gay marriage, so they're against gay marriage. It's as simple as that.

I don't dispute that people ARE doing it because they've been told to by some preacher/pastor.

So the question becomes twofold.

1. You and I both know people pick and choose which religious rules to follow. Why is homosexuality the one they all conveniently choose to obsessively attack with God as their ammo?

2. What's the pastor/preacher's motivation? What is his GOAL? I'll tell you: It's stopping homosexuality. That's what it boils down to. All the preaching, all the judgment, all the condemnation, all the prayer they "accept Christ's love and change", it's all the EXACT SAME THING: I want you to stop being gay.

Why do they want people to stop being gay? What POSSIBLE affect does it have on anyone else's life?

None.

Because they think it's "wrong" and want to make everyone else think it's wrong.

And no one here is naive enough to think that they LIKE this "wrong" gay thing but gosh darn it they just HAVE to stop it because God said so.

No. It's because they don't like it.

 

[teruterubozu]

No. It's because they don't like it.

But then why do they not like it. This is just a cyclical argument.

 

[jaxword]

But then why do they not like it. This is just a cyclical argument.

No, it's not cyclical. It stops right here: They don't like it. The rationalization is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if they use God, Evolution, "the children" or whatever other Appeal to Authority. The result is EXACTLY the same: Despite the fact it's none of my business, I don't like it and I want it to stop.

 

[teruterubozu]

No, it's not cyclical. It stops right here: They don't like it. The rationalization is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if they use God, Evolution, or whatever other Appeal to Authority. The result is EXACTLY the same: I don't like it and I want it to stop.

So you believe in pure evil?

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I'm gonna back Jax up on this one.

In churches, they just don't like it. You can use all the Scripture and Red Letter arguments you want, and I have.

They just don't like it and cling to a couple lines from the Old Testament and just stomp their feet abou tit.

 

[jaxword]

So you believe in pure evil?

You may as well stop this sneaky tangent you're about try here because I won't fall for the blatant "gotcha" trap you're setting up. Expand further on what you're asking because I've said nothing about evil, and you're coming across as incredibly intellectually dishonest right now unless you explain.

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

About time he's come out and said it, and he might as well. This isn't going to lose him the people that were voting for Romney anyway. Plus, I'd like to see Romney actually attempt to bring this up in the debate. Right now he just kind of says it like GOP boilerplate. Does he believe in being against gay marriage enough to debate about it?

Yep, the red states will hate this, but they will always vote red so Obama should not give a single fuck about their views.

 

[teruterubozu]

I have no idea what tangent you're going on, and I won't fall for whatever "gotcha" trap you're setting up. Expand further on what you're asking because I've said nothing about evil.

Sorry 'bout that. Bad articulation, not trying to offend.

I just think it negates the idea that ignorance and environment cause some of these misguided thoughts. I mean, I hope education can change some of that, but I guess hate is hate?

Looks at edit: Wow, come on man. Not everything in GAF is a sinister trap.

 

[jaxword]

Sorry 'bout that. Bad articulation, not trying to offend.

I just think it negates the idea that ignorance and environment cause some of these misguided thoughts. I mean, I hope education can change some of that, but I guess hate is hate?

I'm just repeating myself at this point because I've explained this multiple times. I'll explain once more, hopefully this will clarify. NOTE: I support people's rights to be against gay marriage and to scream at the top of their lungs about it. It's actions that require intervention.

There can be 100 different rationalizations for why people are against gay marriage.

None of them matter. Why? Because they all say the EXACT same thing in the end: I want to make homosexuals lesser than straights.

That's what it is. There's no need for elaborate scripture quoters, armchair evolutionists, or just plain ingorant liars. It's all the same.

Those are the tools of cowards. Cowards who Appeal to Authority to justify their bigotry. Because they know, deep inside, that coming out and saying "I Just don't like gay marriage" won't work.

But none of those justifications negate this: Gay marriage has zero, ZERO impact upon your or any other straight person's life. There is NO reason to get involved...unless you WANT to be involved.

If you are going out of your way to deliberately other a group, to deliberately make them second class, to deliberately make them inferior to your proper straight way...you are motivated by hatred.

You can lie and you can hide and you can preach, but that's what it truly is, deep inside, a festering ball of hate that you're too cowardly to say out loud, so you Appeal To Authority to convince yourself you're a Good Person and DEFINITELY not a hateful bigot.

 

[J Tourettes]

I'm just repeating myself at this point because I've explained this multiple times.

There can be 100 different rationalizations for why people are against gay marriage.

None of them matter. Why? Because they all say the EXACT same thing in the end: I want to make homosexuals lesser than straights.

That's what it is. There's no need for elaborate scripture, armchair evolutionists, or flat out liars. Those are the tools of cowards who Appeal to Authority to justify their bigotry.

But none of the negate this: Gay marriage has zero, ZERO impact upon your or any other straight person's life.

That's all there is.

If you are going out of your way to deliberately other a group, to deliberately make them second class, to deliberately make them inferior to your proper straight way...you are motivated by hatred.

You can lie and you can hide and you can preach, but that's what it truly is, deep inside, a festering ball of hate that you're too cowardly to say out loud, so you Appeal To Authority to convince yourself you're a Good Person and DEFINITELY not a hateful bigot.

Holy shit, best gaf post I've read in quite some time.

 

[teruterubozu]

I agree w/you jax, just hoping that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. America has "evolved" on this idea (as Gallup polls show from the 60s). That preacher's son may turn out to be OK.

 

[GCX]

I'm just repeating myself at this point because I've explained this multiple times.

There can be 100 different rationalizations for why people are against gay marriage.

None of them matter. Why? Because they all say the EXACT same thing in the end: I want to make homosexuals lesser than straights.

That's what it is. There's no need for elaborate scripture, armchair evolutionists, or flat out liars. Those are the tools of cowards who Appeal to Authority to justify their bigotry.

But none of the negate this: Gay marriage has zero, ZERO impact upon your or any other straight person's life.

That's all there is.

If you are going out of your way to deliberately other a group, to deliberately make them second class, to deliberately make them inferior to your proper straight way...you are motivated by hatred.

You can lie and you can hide and you can preach, but that's what it truly is, deep inside, a festering ball of hate that you're too cowardly to say out loud, so you Appeal To Authority to convince yourself you're a Good Person and DEFINITELY not a hateful bigot.

Hate is a very strong word and I believe it's not always about that. I'd say for majority of people it's about ignorance and fear of change.

 

[Polari]

I agree with this stance completely, but I feel as though he has just handed Romney a pitch perfect rallying cry.

 

[FyreWulff]

Yep, the red states will hate this, but they will always vote red so Obama should not give a single fuck about their views.

It'll be fun to watch Nebraska split it's vote again.

 

[jaxword]

Holy shit, best gaf post I've read in quite some time.

I edited the wording slightly, by the way, I made a few grammatical errors and tightened the wording.

Hate is a very strong word and I believe it's not always about that. I'd say for majority of people it's about ignorance and fear of change.

Last page:

In regards to this thread and same-sex marriage, there's literally no reason to be opposed to it other than hating gays, and that 100% applies to religious reasons. People will use acceptable language doublespeak and talk in circles around outright saying it but that's what it comes down to, deep down. And now someone says "Hate is too strong a word" and the rationalization dance begins again.

See? You're doing it. Sugarcoating the words it to make it acceptable to damn the gays, because it's ok if it's not the word "hate."

Ignorance and fear of change are fueled by hate. Do you not see how? Do you not see how angry and rage-filled people get when faced with change? Do you not see how they pour their energy and resources and damn anyone who gets in the way to stop that which they do not like?

How is it NOT hatred to put all that energy into THE GOAL OF DEGRADING AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE?

 

[teruterubozu]

Definitely jax, but it's still way more complex. As you know, there have been many conservative preachers and politicians caught in gay acts while preaching against homosexuality in public. There's definitely more than just hate going on - some weird psychosis too.

 

[Mengy]

I'm just repeating myself at this point because I've explained this multiple times. I'll explain once more, hopefully this will clarify. NOTE: I support people's rights to be against gay marriage and to scream at the top of their lungs about it. It's actions that require intervention.

There can be 100 different rationalizations for why people are against gay marriage.

None of them matter. Why? Because they all say the EXACT same thing in the end: I want to make homosexuals lesser than straights.

That's what it is. There's no need for elaborate scripture quoters, armchair evolutionists, or just plain ingorant liars. It's all the same.

Those are the tools of cowards. Cowards who Appeal to Authority to justify their bigotry. Because they know, deep inside, that coming out and saying "I Just don't like gay marriage" won't work.

But none of those justifications negate this: Gay marriage has zero, ZERO impact upon your or any other straight person's life. There is NO reason to get involved...unless you WANT to be involved.

If you are going out of your way to deliberately other a group, to deliberately make them second class, to deliberately make them inferior to your proper straight way...you are motivated by hatred.

You can lie and you can hide and you can preach, but that's what it truly is, deep inside, a festering ball of hate that you're too cowardly to say out loud, so you Appeal To Authority to convince yourself you're a Good Person and DEFINITELY not a hateful bigot.

Very well said, except that it's not always hate that fuels people who are against gay marriage. Many religious people are simply against it because their church tells them to be so. A very large percentage simply do and act whatever their church tells them to out of belief / fear of God. It's not about logic, or compassion, or common sense, it's simply about doing what they are told to. Sad, but extremely common in the USA.

Ignorance and fear of change are fueled by hate.

Not always, often it is simply fueled by apathy. The lack of will to go against the crowd or "authority". It's more fear than hate.

 

[GCX]

See? You're doing it.

Ignorance and fear of change are fueled by hate. Do you not see how? Do you not see how angry and rage-filled people get when faced with change? Do you not see how they pour their energy and resources and damn anyone who gets in the way to stop that which they do not like?

How is it NOT hatred to put all that energy into THE GOAL OF DEGRADING AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE?

For some people it's fueled by hate but not everyone. All people don't get angry or rage-filled when the gay debate is brought up. Everyone that opposes gay marriage don't put all their resources and energy behind it. For majority of them it's just "umm I guess I'm against it since that's what my church told me". That's not hate.

 

[jaxword]

Definitely jax, but it's still way more complex. As you know, there have been many conservative preachers and politicians caught in gay acts while preaching against homosexuality. There's definitely more than just hate going on - some weird psychosis too.

I disagree that it is complex, and even if it WAS, I would take a Gordion knot approach.

It really IS that simple. Gay marriage has no effect on straights. Therefore straights have no right to condemn or control it. That's it. There's no argument beyond that.

For some people it's fueled by hate but not everyone. All people don't get angry or rage-filled when the gay debate is brought up. Everyone that opposes gay marriage don't put all their resources and energy behind it. For majority of them it's just "umm I guess I'm against it since that's what my church told me".

Very well said, except that it's not always hate that fuels people who are against gay marriage. Many religious people are simply against it because their church tells them to be so. A very large percentage simply do and act whatever their church tells them to out of belief / fear of God. It's not about logic, or compassion, or common sense, it's simply about doing what they are told to. Sad, but extremely common in the USA.

To both: Why is the church against it?

Because they (and God) don't like it.

This is NOT complex. Straight to the core of the matter.

 

[teruterubozu]

I just think the world is more than just Love/Hate & Good/Evil - there's stuff in between.
I guess it's just a difference of opinion in the makeup of the world.

 

[jaxword]

I just think the world is more than just Love/Hate & Good/Evil - there's stuff in between.
I guess it's just a difference of opinion in the makeup of the world.

I fully accept that the world is complex mishmash of cultures and values and the majority of situations are far too complex for armchair answers.

But not this one.

Ponder this: Justify other situations where would it be acceptable to invade and control other people's lives if they are doing no harm to you or anyone else.

 

[GCX]

Why is the church against it?

Because they (and God) don't like it.

This is not complex.

Are you seriously saying half of America hates gays because they oppose gay marriage?

People are always afraid of change. That doesn't mean they would hate it, some are confused, some would like to think otherwise but are too scared because of social pressure, etc. World isn't so black and white.

 

[Mengy]

To both: Why is the church against it?

Because they (and God) don't like it.

This is NOT complex. Straight to the core of the matter.

The church, as an institution, is most definitely against gay marriage due to fear rather than hate. Fear of people thinking for themselves. Fear of the masses losing confidence in the "Word of God". Fear of the cult mentality being challenged or threatened in any way, thus lessening it's congregation and consequently it's power. The church does not hate gay people, it fears what change in their name can do to undermine the church itself.

 

[marrec]

For some people it's fueled by hate but not everyone. All people don't get angry or rage-filled when the gay debate is brought up. Everyone that opposes gay marriage don't put all their resources and energy behind it. For majority of them it's just "umm I guess I'm against it since that's what my church told me". That's not hate.

I've explained this before, but it is hate. It's a position that comes from hate. Their viewpoint has grown from the seed of hate that the church has planted in them. They are simply a conduit of the churches vileness.

 

[Jburton]

Seriously risky (but right) move by Obama.

Will certainly affect his re-election chances.

I would hazard a guess and say that there are more right wing christians in America (and in posistions of power) than gay people or people that support their quest for rights.


Such a polarizing issue for many.

 

[jaxword]

Are you seriously saying half of America hates gays because they oppose gay marriage?

People are always afraid of change. That doesn't mean they would hate it, some are confused, some would like to think otherwise but are too scared because of social pressure, etc. World isn't so black and white.

The church, as an institution, is most definitely against gay marriage due to fear rather than hate. Fear of people thinking for themselves. Fear of the masses losing confidence in the "Word of God". Fear of the cult mentality being challenged or threatened in any way, thus lessening it's congregation and consequently it's power. The church does not hate gay people, it fears what change in their name can do to undermine the church itself.

Answering both. If you fear someone so much that you are motivated to FORCE them to be lesser than you, that's not just fear. You don't degrade someone out of fear alone. You have to WANT to hurt them, to lessen them, to other them, to BEAT them.

That's more than fear.

Once again: These people are LOOKING for a fight. Gay marriage has ZERO impact on straights. Does anyone rationally deny this?

So what motivates a predator to pursue an innocent victim?

I don't deny that fear plays a huge role. But your insistence that hatred is absent is simply naive. I am saying that deep down, under all those "fears", there's a burning urge to make sure that they are stopped no matter what.

That's hatred.

 

[Krauser Kat]

jax bringing the logic hammer to an emotional argument. I can see so many people not wanting to come to terms that what they are doing is so deeming to a very large group of people. I really hope the gay community rallies hard to obama he has done a lot even if it comes late. Its much more than any sitting gop member has or will do in the next decade.

 

[GCX]

Answering both. If you fear someone so much that you are motivated to FORCE them to be lesser than you, that's not just fear. You don't degrade someone out of fear alone. You have to WANT to hurt them, to lessen them, to other them, to BEAT them.

That's more than fear.

Once again: These people are LOOKING for a fight. Gay marriage has ZERO impact on straights. Does anyone rationally deny this?

So what motivates a predator to go find an innocent victim?

I don't deny that fear plays a huge role. But your insistence that hatred is absent is simply naive. I am saying that deep down, under all those "fears", there's a burning urge to make sure that they are stopped no matter what.

That's hatred.

We have very different definitions on hate as a term.

There were presidential elections here in Finland a few months back where an openly gay Green party candidate who's married to an immigrant from Equador got 40% of the votes. I know many people who used to oppose same sex marriage that ended up voting him because he was so good at the debates, interviews, etc. If they would've hated gays they wouldn't have voted him in a million years. Maybe they just had some stereotypic image of gays in their head and after some debates they realized that maybe they're not that different after all.

I don't view that as hate.

 

[marrec]

We have very different definitions on hate as a term.

There were presidential elections here in Finland a few months back where an openly gay Green party candidate who's married to an immigrant from Equador got 40% of the votes. I know many people who used to oppose same sex marriage that ended up voting him because he was so good at the debates, interviews, etc. If they would've hated gays they wouldn't have voted him in a million years. Maybe they just had some stereotypic image of gays in their head and after some debates they realized that maybe they're not that different after all.

I don't view that as hate.

I'm currently trying to imagine how badly beaten an openly gay Presidential candidate would be in America.

 

[Pollux]

I'm currently trying to imagine how badly beaten an openly gay Presidential candidate would be in America.

50 years ago you could have said the same thing about a black Presidential candidate. I know this isn't what anyone wants to hear in the "now" society we live in, but, give it time.

 

[Angry Fork]

He'll just refuse to answer and talk about something else like they always do in the debates.

He's not going to be able to do this when it comes to debate time late this year. It's going to be amazing. Obama rarely stutters on issues. Even when he knows he has to lie, he does it masterfully and even though I know he's lying, he's very suave about it so the average person who isn't interested in politics wouldn't notice.

Mitt is fantastically horrible. He gets completely frozen, stutters and looks scared as shit whenever confronted with a question he knows he can't answer. He starts to chuckle and act like the interviewer is an asshole for asking it. Everyone can see through him and he doesn't even seem to realize it.

That's not to say I'm bigging up Obama for being a good liar, I think it's a shame people have to do that in politics but I'm just noting it because that's how things are now and he's very good at it when he has to do it. I think he has to do it far less often though.

 

[teruterubozu]

Makin' the rounds today...

 

[Stumpokapow]

50 years ago you could have said the same thing about a black Presidential candidate. I know this isn't what anyone wants to hear in the "now" society we live in, but, give it time.

Gallup, 2007 original press release

Candidate type	Would vote for	Would not vote for

All Americans
Catholic	95		4
Black		94		5
Jewish		92		7
Mormon		72		24
Homosexual	55		43
Atheist		45		53

Conservative Americans
Catholic	94
Black		92
Jewish		91
Mormon		66
Homosexual	36
Atheist		29

 

[Pollux]

Gallup, 2007 original press release

Candidate type	Would vote for	Would not vote for

All Americans
Catholic	95		4
Black		94		5
Jewish		92		7
Mormon		72		24
Homosexual	55		43
Atheist		45		53

Conservative Americans
Catholic	94
Black		92
Jewish		91
Mormon		66
Homosexual	36
Atheist		29

I would love to see if that has changed in the last five years.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I would love to see if that has changed in the last five years.

Not sure if they've done any followup polling, I had those figures sitting around from a paper I wrote back then on the influence of religion on American attitudes towards sex and sexuality.

It's very clear from what the polling was asking that the purpose was to figure out if Hillary's gender, Barack's ethnicity, or John McCain's age would count against them--I'm not sure you'd re-run that kind of polling this time around since Mitt Romney is young enough for it to not be a concern and Obama was already elected.

 

[Dash27]

Gay marriage is not a civil right. Marriage is incentivized by the state for several reasons:

- Married individuals tend to be more productive, law abiding citizens
- Married individuals tend to produce future taxpayers that keeps the money flowing
- Married individuals tend to provide a stable family environment

So the government bundles tax incentives, legal contract rights like visitation in hospitals, transfer of wealth and so on.

The question should be do gay couples provide the same benefits as hetero couples? The answer is clearly yes, so gay marriage should be federally implemented. Personally I'd prefer the government to call everything a civil union, gay, straight or otherwise... but whatever.

 

[Pollux]

Not sure if they've done any followup polling, I had those figures sitting around from a paper I wrote back then on the influence of religion on American attitudes towards sex and sexuality.

It's very clear from what the polling was asking that the purpose was to figure out if Hillary's gender, Barack's ethnicity, or John McCain's age would count against them--I'm not sure you'd re-run that kind of polling this time around since Mitt Romney is young enough for it to not be a concern and Obama was already elected.

To google I go! If I find anything I'll post it. But it is interesting to look at the acceptance that certain groups have gained...blacks and women for example when talking about physical characteristics, and Catholics when talking about religious groups...I look at that and think homosexuals will experience the same surge in acceptance.

 

[Gaborn]

Gay marriage is not a civil right. Marriage is incentivized by the state for several reasons:

- Married individuals tend to be more productive, law abiding citizens
- Married individuals tend to produce future taxpayers that keeps the money flowing
- Married individuals tend to provide a stable family environment

So the government bundles tax incentives, legal contract rights like visitation in hospitals, transfer of wealth and so on.

The question should be do gay couples provide the same benefits as hetero couples? The answer is clearly yes, so gay marriage should be federally implemented. Personally I'd prefer the government to call everything a civil union, gay, straight or otherwise... but whatever.

The Supreme Court in Loving v Virginia said that Marriage is a civil right. Parsing it to "gay marriage" suggests that there is some reason straight couples but NOT gay couples should have that civil right. As long as gays can adopt (which they generally can in the US) there is no rational difference between straight and gay couples that I can see that would justify saying that marriage is not a civil right.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Why can't they just create two versions of marriage ?
A religious marriage and a civil marriage ?

Let religious marriages only be granted to those that use a religious authority and follow the rules of that said religion

Civil marriages can be all marriages that do not use a religious authority.. People who just go through city hall. Gay marriages would fall
in this category.

 

[Dash27]

The Supreme Court in Loving v Virginia said that Marriage is a civil right. Parsing it to "gay marriage" suggests that there is some reason straight couples but NOT gay couples should have that civil right. As long as gays can adopt (which they generally can in the US) there is no rational difference between straight and gay couples that I can see that would justify saying that marriage is not a civil right.

No marriage is a right, gay or straight. You wont read further but I'll continue anyway. As far as the government is concerned it is a series of benefits and protections granted by the state to incentivize what I listed above.

Not only can gay couples adopt, I know several gay couples with biological children. Not to mention the straight married couples I know with no children and no intention to ever have them. They also provide stable homes. Because of this they have the right to the same benefits. This is different from a civil right.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Why can't they just create two versions of marriage ?
A religious marriage and a civil marriage ?

Let religious marriages only be granted to those that use a religious authority and follow the rules of that said religion

Civil marriages can be all marriages that do not use a religious authority.. People who just go through city hall. Gay marriages would fall
in this category.

... how do you think marriage works?