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Obama to make historic visit to Hiroshima this month

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RoKKeR

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http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/10/politics/obama-hiroshima-visit-japan/index.html
President Barack Obama will become the first sitting American president to visit the site of the U.S. atomic bomb attack in Hiroshima, Japan, later this month, the White House said Tuesday.

Added to the end of a late-May Asia swing, the visit fulfills a wish Obama expressed early in his presidency to visit the charged location where tens of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed in a nuclear blast at the end of World War II.

I was in Hiroshima just a few weeks ago, and the survivors/museum/park workers I spoke with were all very excited with the prospect of President Obama coming to Hiroshima, and as of today his plans to make the historic visit have been confirmed. The White House has said this does not serve as a formal apology for the atomic bombings of 1945.

Obama has often called for a nuclear-free world in the past, but the administration recently laid out plans for a nuclear "modernization" program that would cost over $1 trillion.
 
Wonder if he's going to ask for forgiveness for the bombings.
Is this going to be one of those threads in which people go to each other throats arguing whether or not it was justified?

I don't think he will considering John Kerry didn't apologize when he visited, but who knows. I'm glad to hear about the nuclear modernization plan. Some of the places where they're kept seem dangerous for such powerful weapons. EDIT: Absolutely blind that I didn't see the "not apologizing" part. And I read twice!
 
Obama continuing his apology tour. smh

But in all seriousness, good stuff. Should be interesting to see the event and response after.
 
Wonder if he's going to ask for forgiveness for the bombings.
Is this going to be one of those threads in which people go to each other throats arguing whether or not it was justified?

I don't think he will considering John Kerry didn't apologize when he visited, but who knows. I'm glad to hear about the nuclear modernization plan. Some of the places where they're kept seem dangerous for such powerful weapons.

As stated in OP he's not apologizing. And why do you think he would?
 
So he's not apologizing. Just visiting. That's cool I guess.

Hell lightly allude to the massive human loss brought about by the atomic bombs , instantly qualify it by bringing up the human losses Japan inflicted on America and humanity at large, then get pummelled by right wingers back home with spurious accusations that he disrespected the sacrifice of WW2 veterans.
 
As stated in OP he's not apologizing. And why do you think he would?

Because the US committed an atrocity against Japan during WW2. Yes japan also committed Atrocities against the US and they should also apologise for those instances where appropriate. Regardless of whether Hiroshima was justified or not it was still a terrible act of war that caused the death of many lives and had lasting effects to the remaining populace.
 
Why would people expect him to apologize? Doesn't America maintain one of the most sophisticated nuclear arsenals in existence. So how is he going to apologize and say it was a mistake when the combined explosive force of the Unite States submarine launched ballistic missile force is 50,000x that of the bomb used on Hiroshima? It's not like he can say they learned from past "mistakes".

EDIT: Doesn't the United States maintain a pre-emptive strike nuclear policy as well?
 
I could see Obama himself making some gestures of apology even if its not an official apology from America the country, more of a personal thing.
 
Why would people expect him to apologize? Doesn't America maintain one of the most sophisticated nuclear arsenals in existence. So how is he going to apologize and say it was a mistake when the combined explosive force of the Unite States submarine launched ballistic missile force is 50,000x that of the bomb used on Hiroshima? It's not like he can say they learned from past "mistakes".

EDIT: Doesn't the United States maintain a pre-emptive strike nuclear policy as well?

you can apologize without saying it was a mistake.
 
Because the US committed an atrocity against Japan during WW2. Yes japan also committed Atrocities against the US and they should also apologise for those instances where appropriate. Regardless of whether Hiroshima was justified or not it was still a terrible act of war that caused the death of many lives and had lasting effects to the remaining populace.

the us at least acknowledges what it did in ww2. japan has always been in full-on denial mode.
 
It's still hard to believe that such an awesome country was our enemy.

I mean couldn't the same be said for just about any country? Germany is a pretty cool country but obviously they had that period where they were all on vacation.
 
It's still hard to believe that such an awesome country was our enemy.

My Operations Management professor last semester made a statement on such a situation that we could've just engaged in trade with Japan and been buddies right from the start instead of having a war then establishing trade.

Granted I'm pretty sure the US and Japan were trading pre-WW2 (see oil) but not to the extent and magnitude of today.
 
My Operations Management professor last semester made a statement on such a situation that we could've just engaged in trade with Japan and been buddies right from the start instead of having a war then establishing trade.

Japan was occupying vast territories in China and exploiting it ruthlessly with plans to take more in South Asia. You may as well advocate friendly trade with Nazi Germany as a better choice then getting involved in the war.
 
It's still hard to believe that such an awesome country was our enemy.

"awesome"

I wish we'd live in a world in which every nation would apologize and face its mistakes of the past but I guess that's not the world we live in. And to be fair, my world view as someone who grew up in Germany is pretty different on things like that.
 
My Operations Management professor last semester made a statement on such a situation that we could've just engaged in trade with Japan and been buddies right from the start instead of having a war then establishing trade.

Granted I'm pretty sure the US and Japan were trading pre-WW2 (see oil) but not to the extent and magnitude of today.
That would have required the total lack of human empathy on our part. Japan was slaughtering all of China and our fuel was providing the machine with power. Also, Japan would have eventually wanted those Pacific Islands we controlled anyway, no way in hell they would have respected our space any more than they did the Chinese.
 
My Operations Management professor last semester made a statement on such a situation that we could've just engaged in trade with Japan and been buddies right from the start instead of having a war then establishing trade.

Granted I'm pretty sure the US and Japan were trading pre-WW2 (see oil) but not to the extent and magnitude of today.

was your professor aware of the political changes in japan and their allies that came about between those two time periods?
 
It's still hard to believe that such an awesome country was our enemy.

The Japan of that era was no more
awesome than Nazi Germany; which is to say, not awesome at all. The things they did in Korea and China, how toxic their ideology was to their own people and the horrifying lack of any morality in projects like Unit 713 are mind boggling.

Countries change, however. In Japan's case for the better. The more awesome Japan of today bears little resemblance to Imperial Japan, thank God.
 
The Japan of that era was no more
awesome than Nazi Germany; which is to say, not awesome at all. The things they did in Korea and China, how toxic their ideology was to their own people and the horrifying lack of any morality in projects like Unit 713 are mind boggling.

Countries change, however. In Japan's case for the better. The more awesome Japan of today bears little resemblance to Imperial Japan, thank God.

Germany has turned our pretty ok too.
North Korea still has a shot to truly be best Korea!
 
Japan was occupying vast territories in China and exploiting it ruthlessly with plans to take more in South Asia. You may as well advocate friendly trade with Nazi Germany as a better choice then getting involved in the war.
The Japanese were doing what Europe did in the previous century, they just did it in the wrong era, post WW1, when that sort of thing was frowned upon, especially from an impertinent Asian country that had the nerve to think it could sit at the table as an equal with America and old European powers.
Rest assured, most of the objections to Japan's empire building wasnt on the basis of Japanese brutality, savage as it was, it was more about them upsetting the international order. It didnt help that they were Asian either.
 
It has been explained to me (but not in great detail) that if we look at deaths, the firebombings that took place in many Japanese cities killed an outrageous amount of people in a very short while.

I'm not sure if there is any productive element in listing which bomb was worse, but everyone always talks about the nuclear bombs. How bad was the Tokyo Firebombings? I heard that, since Tokyo was dense and so much of the city was made out of wooden structures, many many civilians died in a very short amount of time.
 
I think visits like these are essential to diplomacy; even if he isn't going to apologize it is still significant that he is going there.
 
It has been explained to me (but not in great detail) that if we look at deaths, the firebombings that took place in many Japanese cities killed an outrageous amount of people in a very short while.

I'm not sure if there is any productive element in listing which bomb was worse, but everyone always talks about the nuclear bombs. How bad was the Tokyo Firebombings? I heard that, since Tokyo was dense and so much of the city was made out of wooden structures, many many civilians died in a very short amount of time.

The firebombings were a lot worse. But people focus on the A-bomb because it's ONE bomb that can level an entire city. There's little doubt that using it ended the war and prevented a lot more deaths, so I don't think the US needs to apologize for it, especially considering how absolutely horrible imperial Japan was at the time. But having been to Hiroshima, seeing the museum and the dome and the destruction that the bomb is capable of really makes you hope that nothing like it ever happens again.
 
The firebombings were a lot worse. But people focus on the A-bomb because it's ONE bomb that can level an entire city. There's little doubt that using it ended the war and prevented a lot more deaths, so I don't think the US needs to apologize for it, especially considering how absolutely horrible imperial Japan was at the time. But having been to Hiroshima, seeing the museum and the dome and the destruction that the bomb is capable of really makes you hope that nothing like it ever happens again.

I really want to see the museum! I've heard that it is an eventful experience!
Years ago I was at the Holocaust museum in Berlin. That was incredible and haunting. It's below ground above this square that has these tall squares (represents coffins?).



Was fire bombings so destructive because of the volume or is fire bombs special? Where they just able to bombard Tokyo on bombing runs without risky being shot? Japan had poor Anti AA?
I know that their Navy was completely and utterly destroyed, which must have been such a moment of disbelief for them!
 
I really want to see the museum! I've heard that it is an eventful experience!
Years ago I was at the Holocaust museum in Berlin. That was incredible and haunting. It's below ground above this square that has these tall squares (represents coffins?).



Was fire bombings so destructive because of the volume or is fire bombs special? Where they just able to bombard Tokyo on bombing runs without risky being shot? Japan had poor Anti AA?
I know that their Navy was completely and utterly destroyed, which must have been such a moment of disbelief for them!

It mainly had to do with the volume, but also how Japanese building were constructed. They used a lot of flammable materials.
 
I really want to see the museum! I've heard that it is an eventful experience!
Years ago I was at the Holocaust museum in Berlin. That was incredible and haunting. It's below ground above this square that has these tall squares (represents coffins?).



Was fire bombings so destructive because of the volume or is fire bombs special? Where they just able to bombard Tokyo on bombing runs without risky being shot? Japan had poor Anti AA?
I know that their Navy was completely and utterly destroyed, which must have been such a moment of disbelief for them!

I think you would experience similar feelings at the Hiroshima Peace Museum. Unfortunately half it it was closed for renovation while I was there, but I was still emotionally drained after it. It's also really amazing to see a modern Hiroshima in contrast to the old photos of the city completely wiped out.

Bombing in WWII were pretty much indiscriminate since you couldn't get low enough to attack specific targets, so I believe the planes would drop the bombs from beyond flak cannon range. That combined with dense wooded houses meant that the fires could spread really quickly. War is terrible today, but I don't think any of us can imagine the scale of death that came with WWII.
 
was your professor aware of the political changes in japan and their allies that came about between those two time periods?

I'm pretty sure he did, even if he didn't it was a business course not a history one; the comment made was more focusing on the great effects of trade rather than historical accuracy.
 
The firebombings were a lot worse. But people focus on the A-bomb because it's ONE bomb that can level an entire city. There's little doubt that using it ended the war and prevented a lot more deaths, so I don't think the US needs to apologize for it, especially considering how absolutely horrible imperial Japan was at the time. But having been to Hiroshima, seeing the museum and the dome and the destruction that the bomb is capable of really makes you hope that nothing like it ever happens again.
The Tokyo firebombings were a lot more devastating overall, but as you said not one bomb. The interesting thing to me is the fact Hiroshima and Nagasaki were purposely not bombed to have a clean testing site for the bomb.
 
I don't have any problem with Obama visiting the bombing sites, and I think it's an important milestone for a US president. I doubt he'll "apologize" for them as many on the right are accusing that this is what this is. Personally, I'd also be against "apologizing" for dropping the bombs as well, though from what we know that's not Obama's motive at all.

It's still hard to believe that such an awesome country was our enemy.

My Operations Management professor last semester made a statement on such a situation that we could've just engaged in trade with Japan and been buddies right from the start instead of having a war then establishing trade.

Granted I'm pretty sure the US and Japan were trading pre-WW2 (see oil) but not to the extent and magnitude of today.

The Imperial Japanese government was a horrific, despotic regime.

There are whole sorts of additional moral questions to ask if you tacitly support a regime that is committing broad acts of international genocide as a trade partner. Perhaps you avert a pacific war between Japan and the United States (which, really, I think that's a naive point of view considering that there weren't hostilities between the US and Japan prior to Japan's attempt to destroy the entire US naval fleet), but you have to consider the implications that if you're supporting an imperialistic, mass-murdering government that is raping wide swaths of countryside outside of their own borders and aligning themselves with fascists in Europe who are waging destructive, genocidal wars on that continent, whether that's a really good idea for an ally.

Your professor may be ignoring (or ignorant of the fact) that the US established a trade agreement with Japan following WW2 out of necessity because the United States essentially created the government of Japan following World War II. Further part of preventing Japan from succumbing to Soviet-style Communism was to bolster their economy with trade.

I'm pretty sure he did, even if he didn't it was a business course not a history one; the comment made was more focusing on the great effects of trade rather than historical accuracy.

I think it's worth challenging this idea with the ethical question of whether someone should support genocide with commerce, if there is a byproduct of averting war. For instance, Switzerland famously remained neutral throughout World War II, but that neutrality manifested itself in tacit support of the Nazi regime and direct support of the Holocaust. That neutrality continued after the war and Switzerland -- along with the neutral Catholic Church -- became vital respites for prominent Nazis and SS officers seeking to escape prosecution for committing the atrocities of the holocaust. In this example, is there an ethical cost for Switzerland in monetarily supporting a regime that was using that money to exterminate Jews, homosexuals, the mentally handicapped, and other undesirables?
 
My Operations Management professor last semester made a statement on such a situation that we could've just engaged in trade with Japan and been buddies right from the start instead of having a war then establishing trade.

Granted I'm pretty sure the US and Japan were trading pre-WW2 (see oil) but not to the extent and magnitude of today.

I don't even understand the point you or your professor are trying to make.
 
I don't even understand the point you or your professor are trying to make.

I think the professor is way off base, but the line of argument could be similar to Francis Fukuyama's End of History and the Last Man thesis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man

That is that Western liberal democracy has won, and that cooperation of nations through democratic, liberal trade will see the end of war. It's a theoretical argument that was more convincing in 1989 as the Soviet Union collapsed than it is in 2016, with the rise of wars necessitated by religious extremism and the persistence of hermit colonies.

Professor likely butchered it, though, but maybe was arguing that liberal trade agreements between countries would prevent illiberal governments from forming. It's a theoretical argument that doesn't hold up as well against reality.
 
I think the professor is way off base, but the line of argument could be similar to Francis Fukuyama's End of History and the Last Man thesis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man

That is that Western liberal democracy has won, and that cooperation of nations through democratic, liberal trade will see the end of war. It's a theoretical argument that was more convincing in 1989 as the Soviet Union collapsed than it is in 2016, with the rise of wars necessitated by religious extremism and the persistence of hermit colonies.

Professor likely butchered it, though, but maybe was arguing that liberal trade agreements between countries would prevent illiberal governments from forming. It's a theoretical argument that doesn't hold up as well against reality.

Oh, I see, thanks. I guess the professor didn't realize that we flubbed that a century and a half ago when we got our first trade treaty by threatening to blow up todays Tokyo.
 
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