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[bluemax]

i'm kinda sad you of all people missed the joke

apparently at gaf, hyperbole is now a standard mode of communication and has thus ceased to be a vehicle for commentary and/or humor

:/

I saw the joke, and I do agree with your point. I just think its kind of a weak attempt.

The R-Type tactics was a fanwank thread. For decent reason-Drinky has a long obsession with both R-Type AND tactics-style games and their allies. It's like the game was being made just for him at his request.

This sort of claim on the back of Odin Sphere is just obnoxious. There's no way an animu loli game with is going to compare with centuries-proven classical lit. It might be better than other animu loli games, a claim which WOULD make for some fun box quotation.

This is true. I guess I just wasn't feeling this one the same way as Drinky. I agree with his point though.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I have to say, I find a lot of what the Japanese do with Western myth extremely interesting; Takeshi Murakami's approach of superflat aesthetics to be a good model for this maddening appropriation fever, its not merely a quick photocopying of a mythic model, but an inflected and totally specifically Japanese way of myth importation which has its history.

So I'm psyched to rock Odin's ****ing head off.

 

[Fragamemnon]

How can this not be considered great epic poetry:

Fight hits for 31 damage!
Heal recovers 25 HP to the party!

I dunno, it puts the Illiad to the test.

Thir TY dam AGE done ON cac TAUR with FIRA
Cur A heals CID one CAST eigh TY h PEE

FF combat log in mangled quickie pentameter, Homer am cry.

Also, I deserve to be shot for writing that.

 

[Drinky Crow]

it's not even a remotely accurate take on norse mythology -- it's a sequel to princess crown, with characters recurring from that title. hindel the dragon and the kingdom of valentine/valenadine originate from vanillaware, not from the norse mythos.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

it's not even a remotely accurate take on norse mythology -- it's a sequel to princess crown, with characters recurring from that title. hindel the dragon and the kingdom of valentine/valenadine originate from vanillaware, not from the norse mythos.

I truly weep that you had to actually explain that.

Next we'll have to break the news about Valkyrie Profile...

 

[buckfutter]

Classic literature was pure pulp in its own day.

Nope. Well, actually, some classics in all mediums are derided as pulp on arrival. But whatever. I think what you meant to say is that novels were considered pure pulp when the medium first turned up - just like with movies, theatre e.t.c. That doesn't instantly mean that the early works of a given medium weren't pulp.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

No no... I got it. I was just sayin', is all.

 

[alistairw]

it's not even a remotely accurate take on norse mythology -- it's a sequel to princess crown, with characters recurring from that title. hindel the dragon and the kingdom of valentine/valenadine originate from vanillaware, not from the norse mythos.

You're going to vomit out of your nose when you see what Dyack is going to do with Norse mythology in Too Human.

Out. Your. Nose.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

You're going to vomit out of your nose when you see what Dyack is going to do with Norse mythology in Too Human.

Out. Your. Nose.

We've already spoken about Baldr.

 

[Drinky Crow]

look, i have no doubt that fifteen years from now, there will be games that will be recognized as being a high form within the overall medium. however, they won't be crap like sotc, xenosaga, or final fantasy. i don't think any current games really meet that sort of elevated standard, although i think killer 7, silent hill 2, and some of the more hyperreal or abstract games like spore and darwinia might make the cut. it's unsurprising that the games i'd consider to be approximating art have deeper messages and are uniformly difficult to enjoy as pure "games" -- their mechanics seem almost irrelevant, with the experience being front-and-center -- and which spawn the most diverse interpretations.

 

[White Man]

I truly weep that you had to actually explain that.

Next we'll have to break the news about Valkyrie Profile...

But Xenogears is still an accurate adaptation of the bible, right?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

But Xenogears is still an accurate adaptation of the bible, right?

Well some people claim to learn the future from bird guts or horse droppings so...

 

[Armitage]

look, i have no doubt that fifteen years from now, there will be games that will be recognized as being a high form within the overall medium. however, they won't be crap like sotc, xenosaga, or final fantasy. i don't think any current games really meet that sort of elevated standard, although i think killer 7, silent hill 2, and some of the more hyperreal or abstract games like spore and darwinia might make the cut. it's unsurprising that the games i'd consider to be approximating art have deeper messages and are uniformly difficult to enjoy as pure "games" -- their mechanics seem almost irrelevant, with the experience being front-and-center -- and which spawn the most diverse interpretations.

Games that we think of as super duper awesome are pretty much the equivalent of popcorn flicks. Even the best game stories would be considered mediocre when placed against novels or films.

 

[alistairw]

look, i have no doubt that fifteen years from now, there will be games that will be recognized as being a high form within the overall medium. however, they won't be crap like sotc, xenosaga, or final fantasy. i don't think any current games really meet that sort of elevated standard, although i think killer 7, silent hill 2, and some of the more hyperreal or abstract games like spore and darwinia might make the cut. it's unsurprising that the games i'd consider to be approximating art have deeper messages and are uniformly difficult to enjoy as pure "games" -- their mechanics seem almost irrelevant, with the experience being front-and-center -- and which spawn the most diverse interpretations.

But it's the same thing with anime fans claiming that Neon Genesis is so amazingly deeeeeep.

edit: this thread got more highbrow than I expected...

 

[Oblivion]

i don't think any current games really meet that sort of elevated standard, although i think killer 7, silent hill 2, and some of the more hyperreal or abstract games like spore and darwinia might make the cut.

Killer 7? Seriously, Killer 7?

 

[Prime crotch]

But Xenogears is still an accurate adaptation of the bible, right?

I thought Evangelion was suposed to be the Bible adaptation.

Killer 7? Seriously, Killer 7?

Killer7 is praticly video-game art in every sense.

 

[White Man]

Killer 7? Seriously, Killer 7?

I'd put Killer 7 in that same category. It's not a particularly good game, but it's a great something.

 

[Hunahan]

You'd think a rant about declining literacy would at least be properly capitalized.

I'm disappointed.

 

[teepo]

i still remember killer7 so that must mean something

 

[Drinky Crow]

i don't expect games to stack up against novels and film, because games shouldn't have a strictly fixed narrative -- and because games share authorial control with the player.

silent hill 2, though, has had an influence outside of gaming, with many horror directors saying things like "we're going for that silent hill rusty feel" or "i like that silent hill sense of isolation." (shame christopher gans had to piss that particular multimedia meme away with his execrably misguided picture.) it also has a very simple and non-expository plot with a powerful message that likewise proves that games don't have to ape the worst of cinematic horror cliche to be shockingly effective. if anything, sh2 would be IMPROVED by abandoning its fighting and puzzling mechanics, and just letting you wander around silent hill as james sunderland, freaked out of your ****ing gourd and desperately seeking an answer for a crime you didn't know you'd committed. there was ALMOST a game of self-discovery there. ALMOST.

 

[Pimpbaa]

...because all reviewers of worth MUST dock it two points for this back-of-the-box blurb:

"...Lose yourself in this intricately spun tale worthy of a place in the canon of classic literature."

Let's review:

this intricately spun tale worthy of a place in the canon of classic literature

it's this sort of shit that's killing literacy, folks! first we have uneducated manchildren earnestly endorsing the pulpy fanfic-grade xenogears/saga plot as classic literature -- hell, it would be an affront if they even compared it to half-decent sci-fi, much less the world literary canon -- and now LOLI ANIMU is considered "classic"? it's time to scour our public school system and replace it with military education faculties that mandate basic reading comprehension and literary appreciation on pain of public flogging.

i am ashamed. if my daughter gets her eleventh-grade itenerary and it lists kingdom hearts 2 on the literature syllabus, you dumb gaming mother****ers are gonna have your backs to the wall.

All I've read is that quote and public flogging. Because that's what I want to happen to the person who wrote that blurb.

 

[Fragamemnon]

You'd think a rant about declining literacy would at least be properly capitalized.

I'm disappointed.

Unless he does it for stylistic reasons in the medium being used.

 

[Acosta]

look, i have no doubt that fifteen years from now, there will be games that will be recognized as being a high form within the overall medium. however, they won't be crap like sotc, xenosaga, or final fantasy. i don't think any current games really meet that sort of elevated standard, although i think killer 7, silent hill 2, and some of the more hyperreal or abstract games like spore and darwinia might make the cut. it's unsurprising that the games i'd consider to be approximating art have deeper messages and are uniformly difficult to enjoy as pure "games" -- their mechanics seem almost irrelevant, with the experience being front-and-center -- and which spawn the most diverse interpretations.

I don´t get the "sotc" part, I believe its aesthetics will be worth of an academic vision some years after. That is just me.

By the way, before starting with the Books Vs Games, let's remember how many years of difference both mediums have.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Unless he does it for stylistic reasons in the medium being used.

Didn't you hear that e.e. cummings is a hack?

 

[sk3tch]

I lol'd TWICE reading your first post, drinky. Keep up the good work.

 

[buckfutter]

Something tells me this is going to descend rapidly into a fight about which games right now qualify as "special".

Or maybe about what the crosses in Neon Genesis really mean.

 

[Drinky Crow]

killer 7 is a horrible, horrible piece of game design. it is also an awesome, awesome piece of interactive post-modern multimedia design, with a brilliant little commentary threaded throughout its deliberately disjointed gaming components. it's a difficult experience, if you insist on trying to evaluate it as a game. look, i'm not trying to be tim rogers style pretentious here: remember all that shit he claimed about mgs2? killer 7 is the game he was ACTUALLY talking about, not the clumsy attempt at meta-dialogue and fourth wall pisstakes that was mgs2.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Grow up already.

His development was arrested.

 

[Acosta]

IMPROVED by abandoning its fighting and puzzling mechanics, and just letting you wander around silent hill as james sunderland, freaked out of your ****ing gourd and desperately seeking an answer for a crime you didn't know you'd committed. there was ALMOST a game of self-discovery there. ALMOST.

That is fantastic idea in my opinion Drinky, but wouldn´t that step put it further from a game itself?

Maybe game mechanics and art are not compatible?

 

[titiklabingapat]

Odin Sphere is coming out for the Wii?!

 

[QVT]

Didn't you hear that e.e. cummings is a hack?

' "Words on a page" is not the definition of poetry '
' "Because I felt like it" is not a justification for anything, much less art. '

I'm sure those lines are easy to place.

 

[RSLAEV]

Drinky just can't win, even when he's right the fanboys come out with their torches!

So if I beat enough Atlus games will they send me a B.A. in Literature?

 

[pancakesandsex]

That comment on the back was pretty damn laughable. I guess it will sell games to the japa*** story whores on the fence though.

 

[Prime crotch]

Maybe game mechanics and art are not compatible?

If you want to make money they aren't.

 

[ZealousD]

Well it depends on your definition of Classic Literature. I'm sure that Odin Sphere probably has a better story to tell than say, Beowulf.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well it depends on your definition of Classic Literature. I'm sure that Odin Sphere probably has a better story to tell than say, Beowulf.

I will cut you.

 

[Belfast]

Nope. Well, actually, some classics in all mediums are derided as pulp on arrival. But whatever. I think what you meant to say is that novels were considered pure pulp when the medium first turned up - just like with movies, theatre e.t.c. That doesn't instantly mean that the early works of a given medium weren't pulp.

What I mean to say is that a lot of works we consider to be "classic" today suffered the same level of criticism we're give to things at NeoGAF on a daily basis. It wasn't like they were immediately accepted into any sort of canon right upon being finished. Take Wagner, for instance - probably one of the more celebrated composers of our time. His music was absolutely trashed by rivals and critics in his own.

I'm just saying that we need to keep perspective in mind and how time changes the "quality" of things. In no way am I saying that any particular game qualifies as great literary or artistic canon today or will in the future, just that historical trends point to the idea that, were we to live for another hundred years or so, we'd likely be surprised at what is defined as "classic."

I thought it was a given, so I didn't bother spelling it out. Many works of art, music, and literature have moved from pop culture to elite culture over time.

 

[White Man]

Well it depends on your definition of Classic Literature. I'm sure that Odin Sphere probably has a better story to tell than say, Beowulf.

This is sarcastic, right? Right?

 

[duckroll]

I don't know if the person who wrote that shit on the box is aware, but it's not like this is even an original story. Odin Sphere is Vanillaware's adaptation of Wagner's Ring Cycle.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

This is sarcastic, right? Right?

He's mine.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Didn't you hear that e.e. cummings is a hack?

I thought that was pretty obvious when the man couldn't figure out the notion of left-aligned text along a common margin.

It's hard to imagine very many games ever getting to the kind of cross-media influence that classical lit and art have, just because of the workflow by which most games are built and the kind of large team effort that are involved. Literature and art are extremely personal and very open to self-indulgent tendencies which when projected properly and with the right talent, can produce monumentally compelling work.

I suppose if you wielded enough power over a development process it could happen. Miyamoto could, for example, probably command a game's development with such authority and selfishness, but the result would probably look like some kind of deranged and incoherent teletubby episode at this point, due to his unfortunate senility.

 

[buckfutter]

What I mean to say is that a lot of works we consider to be "classic" today suffered the same level of criticism we're give to things at NeoGAF on a daily basis. It wasn't like they were immediately accepted into any sort of canon right upon being finished. Take Wagner, for instance - probably one of the more celebrated composers of our time. His music was absolutely trashed by rivals and critics in his own.

I'm just saying that we need to keep perspective in mind and how time changes the "quality" of things. In no way am I saying that any particular game qualifies as great literary or artistic canon today or will in the future, just that historical trends point to the idea that, were we to love for another hundred years or so, we'd likely be surprised at what is called "classic."

I thought it was a given, so I didn't bother spelling it out. Many works of art, music, and literature have moved from pop culture to elite culture over time.

Perfectly true. In the context of the thread it did seem a bit like a definitive declaration, hence the confusion.

 

[Prime crotch]

Well it depends on your definition of Classic Literature. I'm sure that Odin Sphere probably has a better story to tell than say, Beowulf.

This is true.

 

[QVT]

I thought that was pretty obvious when the man couldn't figure out the notion of left-aligned text along a common margin.

It's hard to imagine very many games ever getting to the kind of cross-media influence that classical lit and art have, just because of the workflow by which most games are built and the kind of large team effort that are involved. Literature and art are extremely personal and very open to self-indulgent tendencies which when projected properly and with the right talent, can produce monumentally compelling work.

I suppose if you wielded enough power over a development process it could happen. Miyamoto could, for example, probably command a game's development with such authority and selfishness, but the result would probably look like some kind of deranged and incoherent teletubby episode at this point, due to his unfortunate senility.

At the same time, imagine someone trying to sell a Pollack game. Just throwing code at your machine and let what happens, happen. Now, I don't consider that art myself but I'm aware some do and its a valid comparison.

 

[Belfast]

Perfectly true. In the context of the thread it did seem a bit like a definitive declaration, hence the confusion.

I know, I tend to make my posts short and to the point under the assumption that people know what I'm talking about. Well, at least it's concise to me, and that's likely the source of the confusion because it's not like anyone else can see what's going on in my head. I just don't want to risk insulting people's intelligence, either.

edit: Also, it does reek of hubris to flat out state that your narrative is comparable to classic literature when it hasn't even had the time to ferment.

 

[Hitokage]

"...Lose yourself in this intricately spun tale worthy of a place in the canon of classic literature."

Of course, this statement means something entirely different if it's qualified with "which we copied from to make this game".

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Didn't you hear that e.e. cummings is a hack?

Even as a joke this is blasphemy.

 

[ZealousD]

This is sarcastic, right? Right?

Synopsis of Beowulf's three stories.

1.) Big scary monster eats people because he thinks they make too much noise. Strong hero comes to town. He and his men pretend to sleep while the monster comes again. Beowulf rips off his arm. People celebrate.

2.) Mother of big scary monster angry! She kills some dude. People angry! Beowulf goes to some weird... lake thing... to find the mommy. Because of some special armor, mommy has trouble. Beowulf finds a big sword in the cavern (how convient!) and uses it to kill mommy monster. People celebrate.

3.) Beowulf now a king! Some slave steals a cup from a dragon. Dragon angry! Dragon kill! Beowulf and one other man fight dragon. Dragon kills Beowulf. Beowulf buried. People cele... errr... are sad.

Pretty nice story for its time I'm sure. But I've seen fanfics with better storytelling.

 

[White Man]

Man, I was just flipping through the manual, and the canon of classic literature really is missing something with delicious lolis.

There's more to Beowulf than just the story. It's style is obviously enormously influential on the biblical-esque style used in much of fantasy writing. Beowulf is really well-written.

Also, your base simplification is silly. You could make any story sound incredibly simple by those standards.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Even as a joke this is blasphemy.

Tell that to knob who just said Odinsphere'll have a better story than Beowulf.