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Offical Thread of Slippery Slope Arguments

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whytemyke said:
no it doesn't as the 2nd amendment only relates to the right to bear arms as it relates to regulating a militia.

if anything this seems to me, at least, to indicate a swiss system-- everyone gets an automatic rifle in their home after they're done with their military service.

You suck at reading. Let me help you.

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Zaptruder said:
You'd be arguing for the right to have slaves if the dixies had managed to amend that into the consitution.

No, I'd be an abolitionist. The natural rights of man supersede the Constitution, such that the Constitution should be measuring up to the former, and where it doesn't, or explicitly violates them, it fucking fails. I don't agree with every amendment. We had an amendment banning alcohol, you think I'd likely bobblehead along with William Jennings Bryan's damn fool crusade on that one just because he managed to get it passed?
 
methos75 said:
The real issue is that A soldier/airman/Marine/etc would be more apt to kill others and himself possibly die in the process of defending his or her base and there fore Family and Friends, than a civ would be rushing to meet his death trying to take over a base that would give him no real gain. And you mentioned base housing, so are you implying that attacking base personals Families, wifes, kids, etc would be an possible venture? Yes that will get the troops on your side. You no that, and every US troop in the World would be itching to crush you. Your giving the Soldier has something plausible to fight for, a Civ taking place in a rebillion not so much. What gain would they get, none really, because weapons and such are secured in locations that would give little chance of a armed rebillion being able to access them. As far as Planes go, most would be in the air within minutes of any rebellion trying to gain access to an base, its not like they would stay grounded.

Like I said, I really couldn't imagine it coming to that anyways. I lived on base for a long, long time; I was actually born on base if we're going to get specific about it (Eglin AFB, Florida). Soldiers will fight for their country all day long but you're going to have a tough time convincing any of them that crushing their own countrymen for fighting for rights that the country was founded on is a good idea. You may convince some of the career military men and women that it's OK but you're not going to sway many 4-and-outs.
 
Zeke said:
I mean the type that thinks the police will be there to help as soon as you call them. Sadly they won't by the time the police make their way to you the crime will be done and over. The chance of a police officer being around the corner from you is slim to none their response times are awful.

This argument is absolute bollocks.
 
You are 4 times more likely to unwittingly injure an innocent or yourself than use a gun against a criminal. What kind of moron still believes this 2nd amendment shit?

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yeah, why shouldn't they keep it legal to own these? what's the worst that could happen...
 
avaya said:
This argument is absolute bollocks.

...no it isn't, actually, and you would know this if you bothered to do even a small amount of research into average police response times.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/response_time_to_victim584.htm

That is a link to the US DOJ statistics on response times as they relate to the type of crime reported.

For crimes such as Robbery, Aggravated Assault, and Simple Assault, police responded within five minutes only 30% of the time. 6-10 minutes for the next 30% and 11 minutes to an hour for the next 30%.

For household burglary, motor vehicle theft, and theft, the highest percentage of responses within five minutes was 11%. The highest percentage of responses within 6-10 minutes was 20.9%. The range of responses in the 11 minutes-1 hour category was 43.7%-41.7%.

Zeke said:
too bad all those guns are military weapons and are illegal for most owners to buy unless you have a class III license

:lol I wasn't even going to bother responding to that. Someone who is so ignorant to the subject that they imply that a Striker, of all things, is legal doesn't deserve to be responded to. That's one of the most recognizably illegal shotguns in existence :lol
 
Zeke said:

You are going to make a situation better by bringing a gun into it? You are going to take the law into your owns hands? The police take time to get there. They always do. t = d/v.

Any civilised person would realise that guns should be banned. There is no sane reason for anyone to own a gun. No sane reason what so ever. "Hunting" is not a reason.

However that is not to say banning them will stop all the gun related tragedies in America.

I have always believed that one of the main reasons you people have such a problem with firearms is the glorification of them at the Federal level, from the founding document itself. It legitimises them. Once you do that it's just unstoppable. There are some really quite crazy people in this thread equating guns to cars, phones and computers. You can only laugh at such comparisons.

I don't even understand why some are opposed to even licensing gun use in the same way you have pass a driving to test to assess whether you are fit and able to operate a motor vehicle. It would seem the rational thing to do.

The Canadians have very similar gun laws but no where near the same level of gun crime. It's cultural. You need to amend your constitution to 21st century standards of conduct.
 
avaya said:
You are going to make a situation better by bringing a gun into it? You are going to take the law into your owns hands? The police take time to get there. They always do. t = d/v.

Any civilised person would realise that guns should be banned. There is no sane reason for anyone to own a gun. No sane reason what so ever. "Hunting" is not a reason.

However that is not to say banning them will stop all the gun related tragedies in America.

I have always believed that one of the main reasons you people have such a problem with firearms is the glorification of them at the Federal level, from the founding document itself. It legitimises them. Once you do that it's just unstoppable. There are some really quite crazy people in this thread equating guns to cars, phones and computers. You can only laugh at such comparisons.

I don't even understand why some are opposed to even licensing gun use in the same way you have pass a driving to test to assess whether you are fit and able to operate a motor vehicle. It would seem the rational thing to do.

The Canadians have very similar gun laws but no where near the same level of gun crime. It's cultural. You need to amend your constitution to 21st century standards of conduct.

Ignoring facts and statistics in lieu of unfounded opinions and personal interests; the cornerstones of any anti-gun argument.

*Edit*

And I see you're in London. The gun ban did a great job there :lol
 
WickedAngel said:
Ignoring facts and statistics in lieu of unfounded opinions and personal interests; the cornerstones of any anti-gun argument.

*Edit*

And I see you're in London. The gun ban did a great job there :lol

I'd rather be faced with some chav with a knife than a chav with a gun. There no statistics to speak of. You people have a serious fucking cultural problem and no gun ban will do the trick.
 
avaya said:
You are going to make a situation better by bringing a gun into it? You are going to take the law into your owns hands? The police take time to get there. They always do. t = d/v.

Any civilised person would realise that guns should be banned. There is no sane reason for anyone to own a gun. No sane reason what so ever. "Hunting" is not a reason.

However that is not to say banning them will stop all the gun related tragedies in America.

I have always believed that one of the main reasons you people have such a problem with firearms is the glorification of them at the Federal level, from the founding document itself. It legitimises them. Once you do that it's just unstoppable. There are some really quite crazy people in this thread equating guns to cars, phones and computers. You can only laugh at such comparisons.

I don't even understand why some are opposed to even licensing gun use in the same way you have pass a driving to test to assess whether you are fit and able to operate a motor vehicle. It would seem the rational thing to do.

The Canadians have very similar gun laws but no where near the same level of gun crime. It's cultural. You need to amend your constitution to 21st century standards of conduct.
I never said having firearm in that situation would help I'm stating that some people think the police will be there to save their ass at the drop of a hat. Sadly that isn't the case and the numbers don't lie. Again these gun bans don't target the problem they target law abiding citizens like myself. You want to see glorification of guns all you have to do is look at hip-hop and see the influence it has on gangs and their mentalities.
 
avaya said:
I'd rather be faced with some chav with a knife than a chav with a gun. There no statistics to speak of. You people have a serious fucking culutural problem and no gun ban will do the trick.

...actually, there are statistics regarding the increase in gun crime that came after the ban in your country.

Like all statistics, you've conveniently ignored them because they're counterproductive to your argument.

A knife is just as dangerous in certain situations (If not moreso) than a gun would be. A knife isn't going to be as hard to pull from concealment as a gun would be. A knife doesn't require you to chamber a round. A knife doesn't need to be aimed precisely and a knife can be used to stab or slash. A knife won't have FTF and it won't require you to reload. As predicted, your irrational fear of guns has deluded you to the truth; you're going to be in just as much danger, regardless of whether or not those evil, evil guns are out there.
 
avaya said:
There is no sane reason for anyone to own a gun. No sane reason what so ever. "Hunting" is not a reason.

Yes it is. So is "sport." Most importantly, "self-defense." And thankfully, "Just because, and fuck you for asking" is also totally valid.

Also, declaring anyone with an opposing view insane = best debate tactic EVAR.

You need to amend your constitution to 21st century standards of conduct.

We weren't overly concerned about drinking the YUROP Kool-Aid back in the day, why start now?
 
Gaborn said:
Yes, I am an American born and raised. And I'd think you'd understand why i asked by your answer and the post I was responding to. You seem to have a very European view of rights, and most European countries don't recognize a right to bear arms. It sounded like you were arguing that gun owners shouldn't have their guns and weren't being treated unfairly by laws like these.
No, I'm just one of a fuck ton of Americans who aren't exactly in love with the prospect of our neighbors doing something terrible with even more firepower than is really necessary for hunting and/or self defense. (And contrary to popular opinion, not all Americans think and act the same, ya know?)

If you can prove that your personal safety and the security of your property is need of the weapons affected by the proposed ban, please share. Why aren't the guns already available good enough?
 
avaya said:
You are going to make a situation better by bringing a gun into it? You are going to take the law into your owns hands? The police take time to get there. They always do. t = d/v.

Any civilised person would realise that guns should be banned. There is no sane reason for anyone to own a gun. No sane reason what so ever. "Hunting" is not a reason.

However that is not to say banning them will stop all the gun related tragedies in America.

I have always believed that one of the main reasons you people have such a problem with firearms is the glorification of them at the Federal level, from the founding document itself. It legitimises them. Once you do that it's just unstoppable. There are some really quite crazy people in this thread equating guns to cars, phones and computers. You can only laugh at such comparisons.

I don't even understand why some are opposed to even licensing gun use in the same way you have pass a driving to test to assess whether you are fit and able to operate a motor vehicle. It would seem the rational thing to do.

The Canadians have very similar gun laws but no where near the same level of gun crime. It's cultural. You need to amend your constitution to 21st century standards of conduct.



Pure crap, a "civilized" person would have no issue with others of their ilk owning weapons, because "civilized" people would be no danger to each other, its the uncivilized ruffians that you cannot stop from owning weapons who are the issues.
 
methos75 said:
Pure crap, a "civilized" person would have no issue with others of their ilk owning weapons, because "civilized" people would be no danger to each other, its the uncivilized ruffians that you cannot stop from owning weapons who are the issues.
Someday many people are going to have to realize that civilization as a whole hasn't caught up with these "civilized" people you speak of.
 
MightyHedgehog said:
No, I'm just one of a fuck ton of Americans who aren't exactly in love with the prospect of our neighbors doing something terrible with even more firepower than is really necessary for hunting and/or self defense. (And contrary to popular opinion, not all Americans think and act the same, ya know?)

If you can prove that your personal safety and the security of your property is need of the weapons affected by the proposed ban, please share. Why aren't the guns already available good enough?

And for the thousandth time, you're searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

We shouldn't have to prove anything to own these weapons. Those who currently own them and have owned them in the past have not misused them and there has been no justification behind disallowing ownership of them aside from the fact that some people just don't like guns (Which isn't enough of a reason to ban something).

What my neighbor legally owns is their own business, period.
 
WickedAngel said:
And for the thousandth time, you're searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

We shouldn't have to prove anything to own these weapons. Those who currently own them and have owned them in the past have not misused them and there has been no justification behind disallowing ownership of them aside from the fact that some people just don't like guns (Which isn't enough of a reason to ban something).

What my neighbor legally owns is their own business, period.



I agree 100%, I own boatloads of weapons and I have never once misused them, They are only used for sports shooting and hunting and I see no reason I should have my weapons taken from me when I have done nothing ever in my life that is illegal.
 
MightyHedgehog said:
If you can prove that your personal safety and the security of your property is need of the weapons affected by the proposed ban, please share. Why aren't the guns already available good enough?
Why don't you prove that your personal safety is threatened by the current gun laws? Then you'd have an argument as to why they'd need to change.
 
*walks into thread*

The idiots who are comparing owning a car to an assault rifle are the precise reason why I hope this passes. Morons and guns don't mix.

Fact: Guns are built for the SOLE purpose of HURTING and KILLING people. That's it. I'm sorry that the pro-gunners here can't understand that.

Fact: The second amendment is outdated. To declare that we need weapons for private use just as much as we did in the 1800's also shows that you guys shouldn't own guns. In that sense, you're claiming that our safety as human beings in the US hasn't increased in 200 years.

WickedAngel said:
What my neighbor legally owns is their own business, period.

If it's something that can take multiple human lives in an instant and is far unnecessary to own, then it's everyone's fucking business.

In fact, why should we bother other countries who might have WMD's? It's their "right" has humans to own them, correct? I mean, WMD's are nothing but toys and so what if they kill people every once in a while. Right?
 
MightyHedgehog said:
No, I'm just one of a fuck ton of Americans who aren't exactly in love with the prospect of our neighbors doing something terrible with even more firepower than is really necessary for hunting and/or self defense. (And contrary to popular opinion, not all Americans think and act the same, ya know?)

If you can prove that your personal safety and the security of your property is need of the weapons affected by the proposed ban, please share. Why aren't the guns already available good enough?
Its not your neighbors you have to worry about. How hard is it for you people to get this through your thick skulls? Why can't any of you people actually direct this energy and anger at the responsible parties i.e. gangs, drug dealers/cartels, and criminals? Why do I and every other responsible gun owners who bother no one have to pay the price?
FunkyMunkey said:
*walks into thread*

The idiots who are comparing owning a car to an assault rifle are the precise reason why I hope this passes. Morons and guns don't mix.

Fact: Guns are built for the SOLE purpose of HURTING and KILLING people. That's it. I'm sorry that the pro-gunners here can't understand that.

Fact: The second amendment is outdated. To declare that we need weapons for private use just as much as we did in the 1800's also shows that you guys shouldn't own guns. In that sense, you're claiming that our safety as human beings in the US hasn't increased in 200 years.
and why can't you see that you're targeting the wrong people with your idiotic gun ban and not targeting the problem?
 
Zeke said:
Its not your neighbors you have to worry about. How hard is it for you people to get this through your thick skulls? Why can't any of you people actually direct this energy and anger at the responsible parties i.e. gangs, drug dealers/cartels, and criminals? Why do I and every other responsible gun owners who bother no one have to pay the price?
That finger is easier to lift and point. Why would they want to secure the ports that the illegal guns come from, when thats where they get their drugs?
 
Zeke said:
and why can't you see that you're targeting the wrong people with your idiotic gun ban and not targeting the problem?

Because the problem lies in the fallacy of humans in general. No one is perfect. Guns kill in an instant and people don't need them (especially assault weapons). Put that power in the hands of individuals with lack of years of weapon training and expertise (aka army and police) and it's a dangerous combo. Mix that in with the percentage of Americans with anger problems, bi-polar disorder, road rage, etc and you have the US today.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Because the problem lies in the fallacy of humans in general. No one is perfect. Guns kill in an instant and people don't need them (especially assault weapons). Put that power in the hands of individuals with lack of years of weapon training and expertise (aka army and police) and it's a dangerous combo. Mix that in with the percentage of Americans with anger problems, bi-polar disorder, road rage, etc and you have the US today.
how many of those people you named off have killed as many people as gangs, drug dealers/cartels? Again your average gun owner isn't the problem I don't how many times I have to say that beforel it actually sinks in.
 
Zeke said:
how many of those people you named off have killed as many people as gangs, drug dealers/cartels? Again your average gun owner isn't the problem I don't how many times I have to say that beforel it actually sinks in.

It doesn't matter. Guns are not necessary in today's life and their ONLY use is killing things. I don't see how you can complain about banning something like that. Unless you've spent hundreds of dollars on guns and feel "singled out" and things are "unfair".

In which case, find a new hobby collecting things that aren't correlated solely to destruction and death.
 
For the gun enthusiasts: There has never been a gun specifically manufactured and sold exclusively for the criminal class. How would you stop criminals from acquiring firearms of any type? Not harsh punishment after the fact, how can we (society) keep criminals from getting them in the first place?
 
FunkyMunkey said:
*walks into thread*

The idiots who are comparing owning a car to an assault rifle are the precise reason why I hope this passes. Morons and guns don't mix.

Fact: Guns are built for the SOLE purpose of HURTING and KILLING people. That's it. I'm sorry that the pro-gunners here can't understand that.

Ad hominem attacks and fallacies that were disproven several threads ago...you're off to a fine start.

Fact: You are wrong. Guns are built for the sole purpose of firing a projectile at high velocities. The way they are used depends entirely on the user and the vast majority of civilian-owned guns are used for recreation and/or home defense, not criminal violence. There are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation within the United States alone. Not even 1% of those weapons is used in crime (And that is just speaking of guns in general; the amount of assault weapons used in crime per year is infinitesimal, even when compared to the fraction of a percentage of guns in general that are used in crime as opposed to those in circulation).

FunkyMunkey said:
Fact: The second amendment is outdated. To declare that we need weapons for private use just as much as we did in the 1800's also shows that you guys shouldn't own guns. In that sense, you're claiming that our safety as human beings in the US hasn't increased in 200 years.

Fact: You are wrong yet again. In a settlement of thousands, it's far easier to spot and isolate the troubled individuals before they cause any significant harm. In a population of 300 million that is policed by tens of thousands, prevention of violent crime is almost impossible. That means that it is, by and large, up to the individual to protect themselves.

FunkyMunkey said:
If it's something that can take multiple human lives in an instant and is far unnecessary to own, then it's everyone's fucking business.

Yet again, no, it isn't. Say that cars are necessary (Which they aren't due to the existence of scooters, but just for the sake of argument). The vast majority of those with SUVs and trucks could do without them and those vehicles are just as capable (If not moreso) as killing multiple people as a gun in the hands of an average shooter.

FunkyMunkey said:
In fact, why should we bother other countries who might have WMD's? It's their "right" has humans to own them, correct? I mean, WMD's are nothing but toys and so what if they kill people every once in a while. Right?

You are the perfect example of why anti-gun proponents are abysmal failures in regards to logic.

adamsappel said:
For the gun enthusiasts: There has never been a gun specifically manufactured and sold exclusively for the criminal class. How would you stop criminals from acquiring firearms of any type? Not harsh punishment after the fact, how can we (society) keep criminals from getting them in the first place?

We can't. Ban or no ban, it is impossible to keep criminals from getting their hands on weapons if they are motivated to do so.

FunkyMunkey said:
It doesn't matter. Guns are not necessary in today's life and their ONLY use is killing things. I don't see how you can complain about banning something like that. Unless you've spent hundreds of dollars on guns and feel "singled out" and things are "unfair".

In which case, find a new hobby collecting things that aren't correlated solely to destruction and death.

...God damn, the circular logic leading back to necessity yet again?
 
WickedAngel said:
Ad hominem attacks and fallacies that were disproven several threads ago...you're off to a fine start.

Fact: You are wrong. Guns are built for the sole purpose of firing a projectile at high velocities. The way they are used depends entirely on the user and the vast majority of civilian-owned guns are used for recreation and/or home defense, not criminal violence. There are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation within the United States alone. Not even 1% of those weapons is used in crime (And that is just speaking of guns in general; the amount of assault weapons used in crime per year is infinitesimal, even when compared to the fraction of a percentage of guns in general that are used in crime as opposed to those in circulation).

So you're saying people buy guns to shoot trees and inanimate objects. Are you serious??

WickedAngel said:
Fact: You are wrong yet again. In a settlement of thousands, it's far easier to spot and isolate the troubled individuals before they cause any significant harm. In a population of 300 million that is policed by tens of thousands, prevention of violent crime is almost impossible. That means that it is, by and large, up to the individual to protect themselves.

Okay, so you say there's 300 million people in the US and yet it's easy to spot a troubled individual? And when you see them, let me guess, you're going to round them up and personally see to it that they get their license revoked, right? You know you really don't give a fuck and so long as you have your guns, you're safe. Instead of, you know, going to the root of the problem: Humans aren't perfect.

WickedAngel said:
Yet again, no, it isn't. Say that cars are necessary (Which they aren't due to the existence of scooters, but just for the sake of argument). The vast majority of those with SUVs and trucks could do without them and those vehicles are just as capable (If not moreso) as killing multiple people as a gun in the hands of an average shooter.

Except that transportation is a necessity in today's world, owning a weapon isn't. You really are coming off as a desperate, gun-crazed bigot in this thread and I can see why the level-headed people have left.

WickedAngel said:
You are the perfect example of why anti-gun proponents are abysmal failures in regards to logic.

And a generalization is sure to help shed your ignorant image. Wrong.

WickedAngel said:
We can't. Ban or no ban, it is impossible to keep criminals from getting their hands on weapons if they are motivated to do so.

So, you believe that if guns were banned with a no tolerance policy, it would not reduce gun crime and police's jobs would get harder?

Honestly?
 
FunkyMunkey said:
So you're saying people buy guns to shoot trees and inanimate objects. Are you serious??
uh yes, yes we do whats so hard to believe about that? I've never shot trees but I've shot old pc cases, 3 liter bottles filled with water, old paint cans, paper targets
So, you believe that if guns were banned with a no tolerance policy, it would not reduce gun crime and police's jobs would get harder?

Honestly?
I think its laughable you think it would make a dent in crime
 
Gaborn said:
I think consensual cannibalism (the Meiwes case for example) SHOULD be perfectly legal actually. At the same time I wouldn't support eating someone against their will. Similarly, gun ownership should be perfectly legal, including assault weapons so long as someone is willing to sell them to you.

I'm willing to sell you crack. LEGALIZE IT!
 
FunkyMunkey said:
If it's something that can take multiple human lives in an instant and is far unnecessary to own, then it's everyone's fucking business.

Let me check my "give a damn" scale regarding how much FunkyMunkey thinks something I want to own is "neccessary" or not.

Hrm, I'm sure I just put new batteries in this thing.

* * *

When you get down to brass tacks, if it ain't food, water, or shelter, it ain't a neccessity.

Of course, I want a computer, and a TV, and a lawnmower, and a shower curtain, and a lot of other inanimate objects that I don't need... insofar as I don't use them to hurt anyone else, it's none of your goddamn business what I do with them.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
So you're saying people buy guns to shoot trees and inanimate objects. Are you serious??

I'm not sure where I ever said I shoot trees, but yes to inanimate objects (Paper targets and plinker plates). I have a shotgun for home defense and a pistol for state-sponsored concealed carry. I have a semi-automatic AK47 for recreation.

FunkyMunkey said:
Okay, so you say there's 300 million people in the US and yet it's easy to spot a troubled individual? And when you see them, let me guess, you're going to round them up and personally see to it that they get their license revoked, right? You know you really don't give a fuck and so long as you have your guns, you're safe. Instead of, you know, going to the root of the problem: Humans aren't perfect.

What the fuck are you even rambling about? When in the Hell did I say it was easy to spot a troubled individual in 300 million? Where did I do anything but imply that it would be more difficult to spot a troubled individual until they were doing something that would actually require you to use a weapon (Stealing your car, breaking into your house, assaulting your family, etc.)?

FunkyMunkey said:
Except that transportation is a necessity in today's world, owning a weapon isn't. You really are coming off as a desperate, gun-crazed bigot in this thread and I can see why the level-headed people have left.

:lol More ad-homimen attacks, logical fallacies, and complete misrepresentations of previous points that were made. As I said earlier, you're the poster child for the anti-gun argument.

It is your opinion that owning a weapon isn't necessary. I've shown proof to the contrary on multiple occasions (Ranging from defensive gun uses to abysmal police response times on a national level). All you've shown is attitude, ignorance, and an unflinching ability to interject opinion over statistical fact.

FunkyMunkey said:
And a generalization is sure to help shed your ignorant image. Wrong.

It isn't a generalization to point to the fact that you (And every single person like you) has conveniently ignored every bit of statistical data in this thread that annihilates your misguided opinions on firearms.

FunkyMunkey said:
So, you believe that if guns were banned with a no tolerance policy, it would not reduce gun crime and police's jobs would get harder?

You honestly believe there would be a reduction?

If the drug war has proven anything, it's that criminals will find a way. The risk of tough penalties will not stop someone who is willing to break an even more serious crime in the form of assault with a deadly weapon and/or murder, period. The government has waged a "war" on drugs that has lasted decades and hasn't even made what would amount to a marginal dent in the business itself.

Honestly?[/QUOTE]
 
JayDubya said:
Let me check my "give a damn" scale regarding how much FunkyMunkey thinks something I want to own is "neccessary" or not.

Hrm, I'm sure I just put new batteries in this thing.

* * *

When you get down to brass tacks, if it ain't food, water, or shelter, it ain't a neccessity.

Of course, I want a computer, and a TV, and a lawnmower, and a shower curtain, and a lot of other inanimate objects that I don't need... insofar as I don't use them to hurt anyone else, it's none of your goddamn business what I do with them.

Freedom works only in moderation. I'm surprised that you think you can do whatever you want, when in reality you can't.

If people were regularly killed with computers, tv's, lawnmowers and shower curtains, there would be controversy revolving around owning them as well.

No one has yet to explain to me why they have the right to own a life-taking tool other than "dude, this is america lol!".

Wicked:

You're responsible with guns? Great. It's the other people in the country that help ruin that right for you. Anti-gun advocates aren't attacking people like you. They are attacking the gun itself. NO civilian has the right to dictate who lives and who dies, or posses something that does, imo. And that includes criminals.

We will never ever have anything close to a perfect society anywhere in the world where civilians are allowed gun access. Do i have an absolute trust in government? Nope. But do I believe in order over chaos? Damn right. I can only hope in a future world where the government has all the weapons and there is a zero-tolerance rule enforced towards any civilian with a weapon of any kind.

And if you don't think a system like that would work and crime would still rise... ha.

but you guys couldn't shoot empty cans with your ak's and m16's :(. that world would suck for you then!
 
Guns automatically = freedom now? I guess the middle east is the most free region on the planet.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Freedom works only in moderation. I'm surprised that you think you can do whatever you want, when in reality you can't.

No, I'm saying I should be able to do whatever I want provided I don't hurt anyone else, and to the extent that I can't, that's fucked up and needs to not be the case.

If people were regularly killed with computers, tv's, lawnmowers and shower curtains, there would be controversy revolving around owning them as well.

Your comment revolved around the neccessity of the items, not their utility as weapons.

Also, a lawnmower can fuck someone up pretty good. Just sayin'.

No one has yet to explain to me why they have the right to own a life-taking tool other than "dude, this is america lol!"

The natural rights of man include the right to own property; that right is mentioned in the DoI and protected by the Constitution. If that wasn't enough, the Second Amendment to that Constitution, drafted by James Madison and properly ratified, explicitly cites the right to keep and bear arms and states that it shall not be infringed.

That pretty much takes care of the basic "why," I think.
 
JayDubya said:
The natural rights of man include the right to own property; that right is mentioned in the DoI and protected by the Constitution. If that wasn't enough, the Second Amendment to that Constitution, drafted by James Madison and properly ratified, explicitly cites the right to keep and bear arms and states that it shall not be infringed.

That pretty much takes care of the basic "why," I think.
But you would still have the right to bear arms under this legislation. Is not having an ICBM in your home removing your right to bear arms? Or biological weapons? This is the same thing to a lesser extent.
 
Kipz said:
But you would still have the right to bear arms under this legislation...

Keep and bear... shall not be infringed...

So, "Uhh, you still have rights, they're just infringed a little" doesn't quite meet muster.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Wicked:

You're responsible with guns? Great. It's the other people in the country that help ruin that right for you. Anti-gun advocates aren't attacking people like you. They are attacking the gun itself. NO civilian has the right to dictate who lives and who dies, or posses something that does, imo. And that includes criminals.

And now you're venturing into the realm of fascism. I don't have the right to protect my life and the lives of my loved ones with deadly force? I thought that JayDub was exaggerating a little with the YUROP branding but I see was wrong.

FunkyMunkey said:
We will never ever have anything close to a perfect society anywhere in the world where civilians are allowed gun access. Do i have an absolute trust in government? Nope. But do I believe in order over chaos? Damn right. I can only hope in a future world where the government has all the weapons and there is a zero-tolerance rule enforced towards any civilian with a weapon of any kind.

We will never have a perfect society, period. State sponsored crime prevention isn't even close to being at the level that would be to adequately protect citizens and keep criminals from getting the weapons that would be outlawed. We can't even prevent people from illegally crossing our borders when we know they're doing it.

FunkyMunkey said:
And if you don't think a system like that would work and crime would still rise... ha.

You can laugh all you want...you'll appear foolish, but you do have that right. Those of us who are familiar with this argument are also familiar with what bans accomplish (Which typically amounts to nothing).
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Freedom works only in moderation. I'm surprised that you think you can do whatever you want, when in reality you can't.

If people were regularly killed with computers, tv's, lawnmowers and shower curtains, there would be controversy revolving around owning them as well.

No one has yet to explain to me why they have the right to own a life-taking tool other than "dude, this is america lol!".

Wicked:

You're responsible with guns? Great. It's the other people in the country that help ruin that right for you. Anti-gun advocates aren't attacking people like you. They are attacking the gun itself. NO civilian has the right to dictate who lives and who dies, or posses something that does, imo. And that includes criminals.

We will never ever have anything close to a perfect society anywhere in the world where civilians are allowed gun access. Do i have an absolute trust in government? Nope. But do I believe in order over chaos? Damn right. I can only hope in a future world where the government has all the weapons and there is a zero-tolerance rule enforced towards any civilian with a weapon of any kind.

And if you don't think a system like that would work and crime would still rise... ha.

but you guys couldn't shoot empty cans with your ak's and m16's :(. that world would suck for you then!
When I'm a mass murderer, I'll be sure to kill people with something that lacks controversy. Like a spoon.
 
Kapsama said:
Ok first of all you're making a lot of assumptions. Who says the population will even collaborate in any effort against the government? The brainwashed masses of America would be just as likely to turn off Fox News and read history books, i.e. very slim chances.
Well of course I'm making that assumption. Of course it wouldn't be the whole population, the whole population didn't rebel against England but merely got taken for the ride, same with the Civil War for that matter, but since the argument is for or against the peoples ability to actually rebel to argue this point we have to make the assumption that there's actually a rebellion. So yes I'm assuming there will be enough numbers to actually do something.

Kapsama said:
And if crippling armored American vehicles is so easy, why isn't this being done in Iraq at the moment? I hear of plenty of blown up Humvees and trucks but I've yet to hear of a group of tanks being ambushed and crippled. Unless the Army hides these events that is?
Read the TM's.

methos75 said:
Sorry for mixing up what you call your police force. My bad. Look, I place you behind the Navy because no matter how many Americans, every single swinging dick could rise up against the government, but unless we're going to build a bridge of dead rebels across the ocean we're not going to be able to take out a carrier or a destroyer. Just how it is.

Your bases out in BFE are the best defended you have because if we were in this hypothetical situation it would be hard to move any amount of people to over run the base, but they in no way are guaranteed to have the most people, really depends on the base. That said, bases near towns like Canon Air Force Base would be ripe for the picking unless they decided to just nuke Clovis New Mexico so they knew anything alive outside your gates was the bad guy. I'm really not sure I would use the word impenetrable for any military base, there are section of many bases where it'd be damn hard to get to, but I've yet to see one that was impenetrable.

The 9/11 security was a fucking joke. Biggest waste of my life ever, as was the security when the President came.
 
WickedAngel said:
I have to reiterate; what does it matter? It isn't particularly hard to build a crude explosive and fill it with nails. People don't do it because it's illegal and they don't want to face prosecution but that isn't an issue in this hypothetical. People with even a low understanding of electronics and chemistry can do these things (And for the record, I do not suggest anyone actually do these things; we're talking hypotheticals here, people).
It matter quite a bit. Skirmishes are not fought by throwing nail bombs. Those guys are hardcore, Joe Sixpack just doesn't compare.
If you don't think American soldiers would mutiny over attacking their homeland, you don't know American soldiers. Depression and suicides are becoming an increasingly large factor in Iraq/Afghanistan and the people they're attacking aren't even people that they can remotely relate to (Entirely different style of living, culture, food, ideals, and religion). Desertion is high as well.
What's the hard numbers on soldier deserting?

Tanks seem to be an integral part of the big operations (When they're taking on an entire city such as the battle of Fallujah). They're not practical for daily patrols.
Ah I see looks like the Iraqi insurgents didn't get far with nail bombs when the MBTs showed up in Fallujah.

methos75 also mentioned that he's SF himself. It wouldn't look flattering if he came in here and said that a civilian insurgency could steamroll him and his comrades. He's not the only person on GAF that has lived on base. In most cases, fences and woods are the only things between civilian roads and base housing. If a civilian insurgency were to rush a gate, then yes...they would be slaughtered within minutes. I think people would have a little more sense than that, though.
It's your word against his then.
 
"Resistance is Futile": Waco Rules vs. Romanian Rules

by Mike Vanderboegh



"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787

"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." -- Star Trek: First Contact


"Resistance is Futile"

You know, the most dangerous thing about liberals in today's America is that they are always taking policy decisions based upon three fallacies:

a. Woeful ignorance of the subject at hand,

b. Extrapolation of their own cowardice onto their opponents, i.e. expecting their opponents to react the way they do, and

c. Willful refusal to grasp that the Law of Unintended Consequences applies both to their world view and to the schemes that they use to enforce that world view upon the rest of us.

They are, in a phrase, without a clue. This is not so dangerous when they are out of power. However, as they now control both houses of Congress and have a better than even chance of controlling the White House in 2009, this has the potential to get a lot of people killed by 2010. An illustrative case in point is David Prather's recent column in the Huntsville (AL) Times, entitled "In a Shoot-out, the Feds Always Win.". Mr. Prather, it seems, has second-guessed the Founders of our tattered Republic and come up with his own idea of the futility of the armed citizenry to secure their own liberty. He writes with scorn of the belief that the Second Amendment means exactly and precisely what it says:


"This argument says that keeping firearms is necessary to ensure that the public can resist government oppression should such arise. In other words, unless you can shoot back at the feds, you can't be free. That's a nice, John Wayne-type view of the world. But it's wrong. It's not just debatably wrong. It's factually wrong. And the reason it is wrong is this: The government has and will always have more firepower than you, you and your neighbors, you and your like-minded friends or you and anybody you can conscript to your way of thinking. You simply can't arm yourself adequately against a government that is rotten and needs to be overturned. Your best defense is the ballot box, not a pillbox.. . . . You can't beat 'em. You'd be foolish to try. So let's take that argument off the table. I don't presume to say that by doing so we will be able to reach a consensus or a compromise or whatever about how we should or shouldn't control firearms in modern society. I'm just saying that shooting it out with the government is like the exhibition team versus the Harlem Globetrotters as far as who is going to win. Only a lot more bloody." -- David Prather, "In a shoot-out, the feds always win", Huntsville Times, May 2, 2007

http://www.al.com/opinion/huntsville...870.xml&coll=1

I am reminded here of the famous Dorothy Parker line, "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think." Now Mr. Prather, who has risen to the lofty position in life of Associate Editorial Page Editor of the Huntsville Times asserts that we gunnies inhabit a "John Wayne-type view of the world (that's). . .factually wrong." As the quote from the principal Founder above clearly shows, it is in fact a "Thomas Jefferson-type" view of the world. Mr. Prather believes the ballot box is a better defense against tyranny than the cartridge box. Oddly enough I agree, as long as the tyrants are willing to play by the election laws. But what happens when they don't? In his novel Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein offered an answer:


"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

Indeed, the Founders were only able to secure their right to the ballot box by taking up their cartridge boxes and muskets and standing against the army of the most powerful empire in the world at the time and fighting it to a standstill. What has fundamentally changed about the universe since then? Communication is faster, weapons are more powerful, but as we see in Iraq, a determined armed minority can be impossibly overmatched and still cause a good deal of trouble.

"Waco Rules"

Now I have spent a lot of time since the early days of the Clinton Administration considering the Founders' concepts of the deterrence of tyranny by the armed citizenry from the perspectives of philosophy, history, strategy and tactics. The catalyst for all this reflection was, of course, the twin menaces of the increasing Clintonista proscriptions of firearms rights (Brady and the Assault Weapons Ban) and the massacre of the Branch Davidians at Waco. The subsequent failure of the Republican congress and the courts to do anything substantive about either threat-- legislative tyranny or rogue bureaucracy-- led many of us to conclude that we had now entered a time when we could only count on ourselves to maintain our liberties.

The Law of Unintended Consequences decreed that there would be two unexpected results of this Clintonista constitutional misbehavior. The first was the importation and sale within a few months of several millions of semi-auto rifles (principally SKS and AK-variants) into the U.S. This was in anticipation of, and defiance of, the so-called "Assault Weapons Ban." Indeed, this was more rifles of these types than had been sold in the previous TWENTY YEARS. And it was in a political climate where it was fully expected that the next law would call for the confiscation of such weapons. Why, then, did this massive arming take place? Were we buying these rifles merely to turn them over later? When the Clintonistas realized that we were not buying these rifles to turn them in, but to turn ON THEM if they became even more threatening to our liberties, it gave them considerable pause. I am told the analysts in the bowels of the J. Edgar Hoover building were particularly impressed.

The second unexpected result of Clintonista misbehavior, although of lesser import than the millions of rifles, was the rise of the constitutional militia movement. As London Telegraph senior reporter Ambrose Evans-Pritchard wrote:


"The Clinton era . . spawned an armed militia movement involving tens of thousands of people. The last time anything like this occurred was in the 1850's with the emergence of the southern gun clubs. It is easy to dismiss the militia as right-wing nuts: it is much harder to read the complex sociology of civic revolt. . . No official has ever lost a day's pay for precipitating the incineration of 80 people, most of them women and children, in the worst abuse of power since Wounded Knee a century ago. Instead of shame and accountability, the Clinton administration accused the victims of setting fire to themselves and their children, a posthumous smear that does not bear serious scrutiny. It then compounded the injustice by pushing for a malicious prosecution of the survivors. Nothing does more to sap the life of a democracy than the abuse of power." Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, The Secret Life of Bill Clinton

You see, what impressed us gunnies the most was the fact that under what we came to know as "Waco Rules", Catch 22 was in full swing. It was as if the Clintonistas were shouting, "We can do anything you can't stop us from doing." The constitutional militia movement, despised by the administration, caricatured by the media (and professional liars for money like Morris Dees of the Southern "Poverty" Law Center), and unjustly vilified after the Oklahoma City bombing, began to explore the question of just what could be done to stop such unconstitutional conduct on the part of the government. We realized that another way to express Catch 22 is to say, "You can do only what we let you get away with."

I think the FBI realized our power before we really understood it's full implications. For one thing, we had them surrounded. At its zenith, the militia movement had perhaps as many as 300,000 active participants, but we were backed up, you see, by the undeniable fact of those millions of rifles. Of the 85 million gun owners at the time, how many would join the militias if another Waco happened? That was the question. Both sides eventually came to the realization that in any case, it was enough. As Clausewitz observed, "In military affairs, quantity has a quality all its own."

And the first thing we noticed was that the FBI became very much more solicitous of our sensibilities and sought at every turn to avoid a flashpoint. During each little potential Waco-- the Republic of Texas, the Montana Freemen, etc-- the FBI would seek out local militia leaders and ask their advice, seeking their opinions with what sounded like real concern.

The best answer that I recall to one of these FBI queries came from Bob Wright, commander of the 1st Brigade, New Mexico Militia. When asked if he and his friends would actually go to the scene of a future Waco in another state to assist the potential victims, Bob replied, "Why would I want to do that? There's plenty of you federal SOBs around here." This was a perspective the Fibbie had not considered before, and it showed on his face.

So we got through the rest of the Clinton Administration by waging a low-intensity cold war, the history of which has yet to (and may never) be written. The principal point was this: there were no more Wacos. Although they never renounced Waco Rules, they did not again implement them.

The Three Fallacies

Which brings us to today and our armchair theorist of contemporary domestic military operations, David Prather. Let us examine his thesis: "the feds always win" by referring to the three fallacies listed above. First, let us test his woeful ignorance of the subject at hand. In fact, you CAN beat the feds in a shoot-out as was demonstrated by the Branch Davidians in the initial raid of 28 February. Four ATF agents died in this monstrous misuse of government power and far more would have, but for the fact that the Davidians, having repelled the ATF raiders from entering their home, allowed them to leave after the men in black exhausted their ammunition. In effect, the ATF asked the Davidians if they could go home and reload their guns and the Davidians, being nice guys, agreed.

Had Vo Nyugen Giap been running what the Feds later claimed was an "ambush", none of the ATFs would have left that property alive. Indeed, had the Davidians understood the full implications of Waco Rules as they were being worked out for the first time, they would have put up a far tougher fight on both 28 February and 19 April and likely could have stopped the armored vehicles in their tracks.

So, when Prather says "the feds always win", he's probably thinking of Waco, but then so are we. In his ignorance, he does not realize that others observed Waco and the exercise of Waco Rules with a keener military eye, took notes, studied and learned.

Secondly, Prather is extrapolating onto others his own cowardice and unfamiliarity with weapons. He knows HE could not resist a predatory police raid, so he assumes that others could not as well. Should there come another dark time when the feds think they can resort to Waco Rules once more, both they and Prather will discover that such assumptions are deadly mistakes.

Thirdly, The Law of Unintended Consequences is still issuing forth unplanned dividends from the Clinton misbehavior of the 90s. Remember those millions of rifles? They didn't go anywhere. They haven't disappeared.

Romanian Rules

So we have the rifles and we have one other thing: Romanian Rules.

On 16 December 1989, riots in the Romanian city of Timisoara ignited a nationwide revolt which spread to the capital Bucharest. Parts of the army joined the revolutionaries, and on 25 December, after 45 years of communist tyranny, dictator Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife Elene received a Christmas present from the Romanian people when they were summarily executed. Said one Romanian radio announcer, "The anti-Christ died. Oh, what wonderful news."

Ceausescu had ruled the Romanians with an iron hand, using his dreaded secret police to pick his opponents off one by one for imprisonment or execution-- until the day came when the people learned their lesson and met the secret police and the army face to face. Thousands were killed in the fighting, many because they lacked the weapons to do the job. But we're Americans. We observed the Romanian Rules and learned. We realized too that we're much better armed than the poor Romanians.

So what makes Prather think that Americans who may wish to resist our own government if it spins out of control again, will sit idly in their little houses allowing themselves to picked off one by one? In his ignorance and arrogance, Prather has committed the ultimate sin of military planners throughout the centuries: he is presuming that the straw-man opponent he has created in his own mind will sit still and wait to be beaten on his (or Hillary Clinton's) own terms. He is presuming that his opponent won't react, won't be agile, and won't be thinking.

Prather makes much of modern day weaponry that only the government may possess. But you know, artillery and nuclear bombs are of limited utility to a government when the battlefield is its own cities, towns, transportation hubs and commercial centers. Then it becomes like Iraq, only far worse. It becomes a rat hunt where the rats outnumber you, and often, at the point of decision, beat you in the one thing that is most fundamental in an up-close infantry fight: rapid and deadly accurate rifle fire. Shouting Borg-like that "resistance is futile" may scare the faint-hearted, the weak-minded and certain children under the age of ten. It does NOT scare us.

And that is what invalidates Prather's fantasy scenario: we've had almost 15 years to study Waco Rules now. Fifteen years of studying how to best direct the resources of the armed citizenry against the next predatory administration grown too big for its constitutional britches. Fifteen years of considering the lessons of Christmas, 1989. After the cold war with the Clintonistas, we gunnies began to understand the finer points of credible deterrence. Now, having completed a long and challenging curriculum, we certainly understand what Jefferson meant by "pardon and pacify them." It would be wiser if Mr. Prather and his historically foolish liberal friends did not seek to give us a final examination in this subject of study, for the results are NOT academic. Just ask Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu. Of course, you'll have to go to Hell to do that.

http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2007/05/guest-editorial-resistance-is-futile.html
 
Kapsama said:
It matter quite a bit. Skirmishes are not fought by throwing nail bombs. Those guys are hardcore, Joe Sixpack just doesn't compare.

Why in the Hell would you throw a nail bomb when everyone and their mother has two cell phones that could be used to remote detonate?

You're comparing a civilian population at peacetime to a civilian population at war. Don't.

Kapsama said:
What's the hard numbers on soldier deserting?

Around 8,000 last time I checked. The rates do fluctuate though, just to be fair and honest; desertion actually moved down after 9/11 for the years that I saw.


Kapsama said:
Ah I see looks like the Iraqi insurgents didn't get far with nail bombs when the MBTs showed up in Fallujah.

Which is why they don't congregate like that anymore. Fallujah was a win for the coalition and did next to nothing to stop the insurgency.
 
WickedAngel said:
Why in the Hell would you throw a nail bomb when everyone and their mother has two cell phones that could be used to remote detonate?

You're comparing a civilian population at peacetime to a civilian population at war. Don't.
You're the one comparing Iraqi elite soldiers against American gun owners. That's a ridiculous comparison.

Around 8,000 last time I checked. The rates do fluctuate though, just to be fair and honest; desertion actually moved down after 9/11 for the years that I saw.
And how many soldiers are stationed in Iraq?


Which is why they don't congregate like that anymore. Fallujah was a win for the coalition and did next to nothing to stop the insurgency.
But the important part is that Ak47s and nail bombs didn't do shit.
 
Also to those that afraid of shooting someone, or themselves, accidently please don't get involved with guns. We really would rather have some compet

Fact: Guns are built for the SOLE purpose of HURTING and KILLING people. That's it. I'm sorry that the pro-gunners here can't understand that.

Yup, guns are the great equalizer. Over 1.2 million Americans defend themselves a year with there guns. A fraction of those lay dead at those people's feet. I am glad a girl has a chance to defend herself ( or badguy has to think she may have gun) then be raped/killed. However you would rather see the weak prayed on. The criminals already got the weapons...is something you totally fail to grasp.

But the important part is that Ak47s

Hmm do you know anyone in the military at all? Training is key with weapons..its Weird. The Iraqi army is turning into studs as we keep training them more and more.
 
what's wrong with non-lethal alternatives like a taser that shoots out?

Soon as the police and all parties involved take off the whole non-lethal in the name. People die and suffer nerve damage from those things.
 
Zaptruder said:
With regards to guns as self defense... what's wrong with non-lethal alternatives like a taser that shoots out?
This will sound odd but I'll bite. Because if the shit hit the fan to the point where I needed to pull either a taser or a gun I want the other side dead. I don't believe in using weapons unless you're going to take it all the way. it's why a gun will be my very last resort and why if I pull it someone will probably have to die. So, ok, in your world lets say all you had was tasers, well I'd be sorta ok with that so long as I can kill him while he's down, because self defense IMO doesn't mean buy me 30 seconds head start, it means eliminate the threat.

A taser's the kind of thing that if it works and you don't kill or escape you've done pissed someone off. You have escalated that situation past the point of no return, and now what are you going to do? With the tasers that shoot that one shot was it. If he pulls that shit out and you have nothing to go from there what do you do? You die. You get raped. Whatever.

A gun is meant to kill, only thing it's really good at. So if we're talking about something to replace a gun, then it'd also have to excel at killing. If a gun doesn't need to come out neither does a taser, but if it does get to that point, what the hell is the point of a taser?
 
Nicodimas said:
Soon as the police and all parties involved take off the whole non-lethal in the name. People die and suffer nerve damage from those things.

Far-less lethal, most likely non-lethal is a bit of a mouthful Nic.
 
Nicodimas said:
Hmm do you know anyone in the military at all? Training is key with weapons..its Weird. The Iraqi army is turning into studs as we keep training them more and more.
In fact I do, but I don't see the relevance here. The highly trained insurgents with Ak47 that they've used for decades didn't make a difference. Yet WickedAngel makes it seems like Joe Schmoe with an M16 can face the US Army.
 
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