Support NeoGAF

[RevoDS]

Our political system is a fucking joke, that is pretty much a fact by now. I can hardly believe this :lol

 

[Sibylus]

So glad I didn't vote blue.

 

[Kifimbo]

Its an attack on democracy

LAWL. We had no public funding until a few years ago and the democracy was fine. Bottom line is, public funding is theft. It's one of the reason I didn't vote. Yeah, it's only 2$ a year, but automatically taking X$ without my consent because I voted for you. No way. I don't care what the motives behind that decision are. I only care because it's the right decision.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

eh, it's a power grab, but this situation wouldn't exist if the other parties didn't suck. The Conservatives built a party that's extremely well financed by donations. If they can do it, the other parties should be able to as well.

 

[lunarworks]

I think the GG would allow the opposition parties to try governing as a coalition but even that is highly unstable

I think she would have no choice but to endorse a coalition gov't if the confidence vote fails. There would be public outrage on a level never before seen if there were another election so soon.

Harper is a buffoon.

 

[SRG01]

LAWL. We had no public funding until a few years ago and the democracy was fine. Bottom line is, public funding is theft. It's one of the reason I didn't vote. Yeah, it's only 2$ a year, but automatically taking X$ without my consent because I voted for you. No way. I don't care what the motives behind that decision are. I only care because it's the right decision.

No, you don't understand. Lobbying and direct funding of political parties was removed in exchange for the vote subsidy under the Chretien government a few years ago. There is no alternative plan in place.

This is the price for democracy; it helps fund legitimate (ie. 2%+) political movements and allows people's voices to be heard.

 

[maharg]

eh, it's a power grab, but this situation wouldn't exist if the other parties didn't suck. The Conservatives built a party that's extremely well financed by donations. If they can do it, the other parties should be able to as well.

So your post can be summed up as: Yay lobbyists!

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

So your post can be summed up as: Yay lobbyists!

Grassroots organization = lobbyists? Sad that a bunch of old, white conservative pricks can utilize the internet and door-to-door fundraising better than the Liberals, NDP, and Greens. Just pathetic.

Remember, it was Chretien who put a stop to large corporate donations. You'd think his party would've established itself at a grassroots level after cutting off their union and corporate support, but apparently not.

 

[Kifimbo]

No, you don't understand. Lobbying and direct funding of political parties was removed in exchange for the vote subsidy under the Chretien government a few years ago. There is no alternative plan in place.

This is the price for democracy; it helps fund legitimate (ie. 2%+) political movements and allows people's voices to be heard.

No, I understand it very well. Direct funding is way better than subsidy because it's legitimate and morally right. The lobbying excuse is laughable. The problem isn't people giving a lot of money to political parties. The problem is parties giving that money back (and a lot more) to these people. If you think this kind of corruption doesn't exist anymore because of public funding, then you are being naive.

 

[Boogie]

Its an attack on democracy

Barack Obama = Enemy of Democracy

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Barack Obama = Enemy of Democracy

He campaigned on public funding though...

Oh wait

this is a test for the opposition parties. If they can't come together to save themselves, then I hope they all die. What a bunch of trash.

 

[RevoDS]

No, I understand it very well. Direct funding is way better than subsidy because it's legitimate and morally right. The lobbying excuse is laughable. The problem isn't people giving a lot of money to political parties. The problem is parties giving that money back (and a lot more) to these people. If you think this kind of corruption doesn't exist anymore because of public funding, then you are being naive.

Except the conservatives don't suggest going back to the old system, but just stripping subsidy away with nothing else to replace it?

 

[Kifimbo]

Except the conservatives don't suggest going back to the old system, but just stripping subsidy away with nothing else to replace it?

It's not the same old system, since there is still a limit per person when there was no limit back then. Otherwise it's the same (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Terrell]

He campaigned on public funding though...

Oh wait

this is a test for the opposition parties. If they can't come together to save themselves, then I hope they all die. What a bunch of trash.

Thanks for essentially wishing a one-party system on Canada. I hope I never see you talk shit about China.

 

[Zombie James]

You can't trust conservatives in any country under any name.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Thanks for essentially wishing a one-party system on Canada. I hope I never see you talk shit about China.

If the opposition can't survive this, they don't deserve to survive. There's a shitload of ways they can stall for time (senate) or get themselves out of this mess (temporary alliance) or cope with it (by improving their fundraising capabilities -- I got more invites to Obama groups and Obama's website on Facebook than I did to the Liberals or NDP). If they die, other parties will form in their place.

If the Conservatives can survive Brian Mulroney, the opposition parties should be able to survive this. And again, if they can't stop this or adapt to it, they're worthless, and I don't want them to exist, let alone lead this country.

You can't trust conservatives in any country under any name.

Did you trust them when they called themselves the Liberals?

 

[X26]

Yeaaaaa, canadians aren't going to stand for this, I don't see it happening

Including me!


...I just don't want to vote again so soon

 

[Slavik81]

It's not the same old system, since there is still a limit per person when there was no limit back then. Otherwise it's the same (correct me if I'm wrong).

With a low limit, I see no reason why it should be a problem. After all, it's ultimately the same thing. Supporters of their parties would either pay for it directly or indirectly. This, however, would give those individual supporters more choice as to what extent they wish to support their party financially.

Despite potentially significant repercussions in the balance of power in campaign finance, neither option seems much more 'fair' than the other... presuming the campaign donation limit is relatively low.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

The limit is unchanged: you can donate a maximum of $1100.

There's a limit on 3rd party political campaigning as well. I think it's 150k or something, which would prevent a group like moveon.org from being successful in Canada. Same with the swiftboating stuff.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

Thanks for essentially wishing a one-party system on Canada. I hope I never see you talk shit about China.

As bad as the CPC can be, I do like the fact that they seem to have a single agenda that everyone works to complete. Over here the various parties tear down any progress the previous ones made. It's the cause of the west's almost bipolar foreign and economic policy.

As for Canada, fuck the opposition parties. Make due with what your supporters give you. I mean if we were talking purely donations then the Liberals should be doing amazing.

 

[Zombie James]

Did you trust them when they called themselves the Liberals?

I vote NDP.

 

[SRG01]

As bad as the CPC can be, I do like the fact that they seem to have a single agenda that everyone works to complete. Over here the various parties tear down any progress the previous ones made. It's the cause of the west's almost bipolar foreign and economic policy.

As for Canada, fuck the opposition parties. Make due with what your supporters give you. I mean if we were talking purely donations then the Liberals should be doing amazing.

You have to understand that this money is rarely used for campaign advertising and so forth. This subsidy is more or less "operational funds" that allows MPs to function in parliament and generally goes towards things like secretaries, pages, research, and so forth. If these funds are stopped, then you can say goodbye to the day-to-day functions of each political party.

Hell, I don't think the Conservatives can even use their own funds for this kind of stuff since, apparently, this subsidy goes through the Sergeant-At-Arms under a different budget.

 

[Azih]

Lord I don't even know why Harper even pays lip service to building a coalition style of governance before pulling stuff like this.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

Fucking Canadian government, Christ. It's the governing equivalent of RROD'ing.

 

[SRG01]

Fucking Canadian government, Christ. It's the governing equivalent of RROD'ing.

I've always said that the Canadian government never really does anything. All it does is keep up the illusion of governance while many civil services are essentially self-autonomous already.

 

[Terrell]

I've always said that the Canadian government never really does anything. All it does is keep up the illusion of governance while many civil services are essentially self-autonomous already.

I always preferred to view Canadian politics as taking the worst of British politics and the worst of American politics and making one giant clusterfuck mess out of it.

If the opposition can't survive this, they don't deserve to survive. There's a shitload of ways they can stall for time (senate) or get themselves out of this mess (temporary alliance) or cope with it (by improving their fundraising capabilities -- I got more invites to Obama groups and Obama's website on Facebook than I did to the Liberals or NDP). If they die, other parties will form in their place.

If the Conservatives can survive Brian Mulroney, the opposition parties should be able to survive this. And again, if they can't stop this or adapt to it, they're worthless, and I don't want them to exist, let alone lead this country.

Two fallacies here.
First, any governing power, if unopposed by other political figures, can use it to ensure that there is no way to oppose them by government mandate. That's why communist countries seem to, y'know, STAY communist countries, because anything outside of outright bloody rebellion can't take their power away. If it came down to the one-party system you suggest, the Queen and her representative would have to get involved to prevent such an action, but I don't know if such a thing could be possible if one party controls every other facet of the government inside and out. So don't kid yourself, you WOULD condemn Canada to fascism. Harper wouldn't have it any other way if he thought he could get away with it, and looking at his current record as PM, trying to bully his policies into place... I don't see it as any stretch of the imagination to believe it.
Second, the Conservatives DIDN'T survive Brian Mulroney. The current party is the Canadian Alliance wearing the skin of the Progressive Conservatives after they triumphantly pillaged their dying corpse in an effort to obtain a semblance of a better image. I repeat: The current Tories are NOT the same party, and Harper is making sure that it stays that way so long as he is at the helm.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I vote NDP.

Ah, so do I. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I think Jack Layton's a useless piece of shit like the rest of our leaders.

Terrell: Fine, I'm condemning this party to fascism if our opposition can't emerge from this far stronger than before. Fascism is what we deserve because we've produced uncharismatic, incapable leaders, we've been uninvolved in our country's politics, and we're divided regionally. As my underground bunker's lack of macaroni and cheese and other non-perishable goods will attest, though, I pretty much doubt this will occur, so you can take off your tinfoil hat.

Anyway, I think you took my concept of the parties dying a bit too literally. Even in the worst case scenario, I don't envision a future where there are no left wing parties to challenge the tories.

Second, where did the conservatives go if not to the CPC? Who do they vote for now? THe red tories are still in the CPC pocket. If not, how did the CPC manage to carry the election? Does that voting block stay at home?

 

[Zombie James]

From today's Metro:

"This is class and gender warfare," said economist Robert Chernomas, from the University of Manitoba. "This is the type of economic policy agenda Sarah Palin would have delivered had she been elected President in the US."

Ouch.

 

[btkadams]

another election? WTF. stop wasting my money!!

 

[Threi]

lol Canada

 

[TheQueen'sOwn]

I hope this bites the conservatives in the ass.

 

[Kifimbo]

Haha, after comparing Harper to Bush, now it's Harper = Palin. We need a new Godwin's Law.

The funny thing is that Harper is relying on the same funding method the Obama used, whereas every other parties are relying on a funding method similar to the one used by McCain and...Palin.

 

[Dyno]

Harper's stirring up shit because he wants another election versus Dion. It's a free win and will further pad his legacy. Once the liberal convention takes place Harper will probably have to face either Rae or Ignatief, who can't do worse than Dion did.

If there is another election I hope Canadians see it for what it is and rise up to deliver the appropriate backlash. If our Prime Minister can't keep a government together to this degree then he simply has to go. If he's trying to wage a war of attrition then he should be removed because this is a waste of our country's time, energy, and resources.

I believe in our current election system precisely because it reveals this kind of rank political opportunism. Yes it can be abused but we all get to view the abuser in action.

 

[Big-E]

This is pure fucking garbage. Harper can go fuck himself up the ass with his ego.

 

[Slavik81]

Haha, after comparing Harper to Bush, now it's Harper = Palin. We need a new Godwin's Law.

If Harper were anything like Palin, I wouldn't have voted for him in the last two elections. The Canadian Conservatives have about as much in common with American Democrats as they do with American Republicans.

 

[Dyno]

If Harper were anything like Palin, I wouldn't have voted for him in the last two elections.

Yeah, even though I find Harper to be a leader devoid of any capacity to inspire, incriminating comparisons like that one don't do our political process any justice.

Yes Harper is labelled as a conservative but he's actually as left wing as Obama is. Canada has nothing like Palin or the neo-conservatives. Nothing that's officially recognized anyway. Those Bush/Palin comparison attacks are disingenious.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Yes Harper is labelled as a conservative but he's actually as left wing as Obama is.

It's more like "Obama is labeled left wing but he's actually almost as conservative as Harper is" if you view politics globally rather than in the intensely skewed American framing.

 

[Big-E]

It's more like "Obama is labeled left wing but he's actually almost as conservative as Harper is" if you view politics globally rather than in the intensely skewed American framing.

This.

 

[Deku]

It's more like "Obama is labeled left wing but he's actually almost as conservative as Harper is" if you view politics globally rather than in the intensely skewed American framing.

I've already mentioned this in the several PoliGAF us elections threads but the analysis of US politics from the prism of a Euro-centric left/right context gives the wrong context. As marxism was never a huge deal in US politics and the US political philosophy has mroe in common with 17th century liberal ideology than it does with the 19th century class wars and revolutionary anti-capitalism.

Socially it's fair to say America is more conservative as a whole, but you really need to look at what you're measuring first.

To have a European equivalent would be to envisage the EU with Turkey and the Eastern bloc states and having them exercise political power in a federal system. Western Europe would be overwhelmed politically on many key social questions.

 

[Kifimbo]

Here we go:

The Liberal Opposition plans to introduce a motion in the House of Commons on Monday declaring non-confidence in the minority Conservative government and proposing a governing coalition.

The motion comes as emissaries from the Liberals, New Democrats and Bloc Quebecois hold talks about forming a new government should Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s minority fall.

But Harper could still avert the immediate defeat of his weeks-old government through procedural tactics.
The Liberal motion, which has the approval of the NDP and Bloc Quebecois, reads:

“In light of the government’s failure to recognize the seriousness of Canada’s economic situation and its failure in particular to present any credible plan to stimulate the Canadian economy and to help workers and businesses in hard-pressed sectors such as manufacturing, the automotive industry and forestry, this House has lost confidence in this government and is of the opinion that a viable alternative government can be formed within the present House of Commons.”

A source says the opposition parties have agreed that Liberal Leader Stephane Dion would lead the government for the next few months.

I think it's a huge mistake. HUGE. Whatever they do, they won't solve this crisis. Especially not in the next year. Whatever they do, they will now be blamed instead of the CPC. Whatever they do, they will be known for allying with a separatist party.

And you just know it will create a huge backlash in Western Canada. Quebec will not be the only province with a separatist party anymore.

 

[Fatghost]

Harper is brilliant. He's got the Liberals cornered. They are fucked if they do, fucked if they don't. :lol


I hope they go ahead and steal the government with a coalition. Hopefully it will kill Bill C-61.


My guess though: Harper realizes he can't do shit to stop the economic downturn from being huge and he wants the Liberals to be in charge when all the shit falls so he can escape blame.

 

[Zombie James]

Here we go:



I think it's a huge mistake. HUGE. Whatever they do, they won't solve this crisis. Especially not in the next year. Whatever they do, they will now be blamed instead of the CPC. Whatever they do, they will be known for allying with a separatist party.

And you just know it will create a huge backlash in Western Canada. Quebec will not be the only province with a separatist party anymore.

It's the only thing the opposition can do. No one wants another election, not the Liberals and not the public. It's the only way to keep the Conservatives in check until the Liberals get a chance to rebuild.

I support this move.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I hope they go ahead and steal the government with a coalition. Hopefully it will kill Bill C-61.

Bill C-61 has been dead for a while when the last election was called. They have yet to reintroduce it.

 

[Dyno]

So my main man Jean Cretien and his NDP contemporary Ed Broadbent start talking to their respective people about forming a serious coilition and BAM! Harper pussies out!

Conservatives back down on controversial party funding changes
Last Updated: Friday, November 28, 2008 | 11:27 AM ET
The Canadian Press
The Conservative government says a controversial plan to strip political parties of their public financing won't be included in a confidence vote on the fall fiscal update.

Government sources told the Canadian Press only tax measures will be part of the ways and means motion that parliamentarians will vote upon on Monday.

It's a sharp reversal for the minority government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

When the fiscal update was delivered on Thursday, government officials and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty expressly stated the party financing measures would be considered matters of confidence.

But with the Liberals and New Democrats in deep discussions about a potential coalition government should the Tories be defeated, the Conservatives are pulling back.

The party financing measures would effectively gut the opposition parties, who are far more dependent on public subsidies than is the Conservative party.

Harper miscalculated with this dick move and stirred up a hornets nest but then backed down rather than go down as a PM would couldn't keep a parliment together for even six weeks.

Sanity reigns. More news here.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/545220

 

[Zombie James]

So my main man Jean Cretien and his NDP contemporary Ed Broadbent start talking to their respective people about forming a serious coilition and BAM! Harper pussies out!



Harper miscalculated with this dick move and stirred up a hornets nest but then backed down rather than go down as a PM would couldn't keep a parliment together for even six weeks.

Sanity reigns.

Yeah, not so much. Harper's lost a lot of credibility and respect in the House, it'd serve him right to get kicked out and forced to sit on the other side despite his pathetic backtracking. I want a sane, responsible government again.

 

[X26]

I don't mind having the conservatives in power (although it's defidentely not my preference), but to me Harper is a terrible leader and does not represent Canada well. The Conservatives have to have someone better in their ranks

 

[Dyno]

Yeah, not so much. Harper's lost a lot of credibility and respect in the House, it'd serve him right to get kicked out and forced to sit on the other side despite his pathetic backtracking. I want a sane, responsible government again.

It will be interesting to see the official responses from the opposition parties.

They weren't supposed to bitch about the federal election funding but instead focus on the poor economic plan for the country. That said turfing the funding would have crippled the Liberals at least and it was the true reason for forming a coilition.

So will they stick to their guns and continue with a coilition? Do they smell that much blood yet? Or will they back down from a coilition, which would reveal their true colours.

The next couple news flashes are liable to be pretty juicy.

 

[Firestorm]

Shit. But he's a family man. How could you lose confidence in a family man?

 

[BigJonsson]

This is such a clusterfuck

 

[Kifimbo]

Harper bluff didn't work, but now the opposition is bluffing and it won't work.

1. They can't take power because there is no stimulus package on a fiscal update. That's not a good reason. First, because it's only a fiscal update, not a budget. Second, because there is nothing dramatic happening right now in Canada. Stimulate what ? The dying forest industry, when magazines are closing every day and when house are not being built anymore in the US ? The dying auto industry when the US governement hasn't done anything yet ? What is the Liberal/NPD/Bloc proposal ? Printing money and borrowing to do what right now ? They don't even offer an alternative except "we gotta do something".

2. Taking power at the beginning of the crisis is suicide in a minority situation. As I said, they'll be blame for everything that will happen next. The Conservatives will wait for the right moment to beat the government and they'll get a majority.

3. To do this, Conservatives will need help from the Bloc. But you know it will happen sooner than later, since the Bloc will only support the other two when it benefits Quebec. Centralizing everything in Ottawa like the Liberals love to do and the NPD wants to do isn't gonna please Duceppe.

4. Dion as Prime Minister ? Are you kidding me ? He resigned. He lost badly. He's no leader.

5. The fury from the West is gonna be off the charts. The country will be more divided than ever before.