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[Wendo]

Is there a full list of cars that will be in the game, Che?

Spoiler

...like what Hondas are going to be in it?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

For one thing, the JGTC, (well, Super GT...), cars had better be back. I just love that series and enjoyed the #18 Takata Dome NSX tremendously in the first game. Going into Round 4, it's at the top of the points ranking,

Spoiler

ahead of the Tom's SC by 2 points

Also, the Pagani Zonda F would be wonderful. Make it happen, Turn 10!

 

[DOBERMAN INC]

all im hoping for is a awsome looking mitsubishi lancer evolution VIII and i'll pre order

man i love that car

 

[shantyman]

yeah, well just tell them to f-off. I don't see how damaging the gameplay by not offering a good cockpit view is justified because 'we can't model the interiors'. So find another solution. Don't model the interiors, just have the camera slightly more zoomed in so you only see the top of the dash.

I can't beleive we just take whatever weaksauce excuse Chespace comes up with. No offence to Chespace, I'd expect more questioning of any dev brush off.

Are you for real? The dev team has finite resources and time, so they aren't modeling the interiors. Do you realize what he said about roll cages and weight reduction? That would be 300+ cars multipled by those 2 major changes to the interior (and all the possible variations- stage 1, 2,and 3 weight reduction, etc).

If you don't want to buy the game fine but don't troll over something that has a very logical explanation (not an excuse). The 50 or so hardcore gamers whose purchase of the game hinges on PGR3 quality interiors and the associated loss of sales are easier to swallow than added development time and budget.

 

[Russ]

So we wont be able to see the roll cages like we were able to in Forza 1?

 

[chespace]

God that would be the best news ever, but by the rest of Che's comments I would bet he is refering to Logitechs DriveFX wheel, which by all reviews I have seen, is to be complete crap.

Nice way to jump the logic track.

I said nothing specific except good news about 3rd party wheels and force feedback. How that led you to the DriveFX wheel, well, is any fanboy's guess I suppose.

Yes, there is a car list and it is sitting right here on my desk.

Cockpit view is good stuff, nobody is refuting that... unfortunately, we can't do it for Forza 2. Hint hint.

 

[JMPovoa]

By the way Che, where is that Monalisa pic from Forza Motorsport 1, that you kept talking about in that podcast with Major Nelson?

 

[Gek54]

Now now boys, settle down.


(wait, I'm getting deja vu all of a sudden)

Ha, same here and yet I havnt even posted.

A very good piece of news involves 3rd party wheels and force feedback.

Now you are just toying with my emotions. Is this news that we can expect to see posted on forzamotorsport.net anytime soon?????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Diablohead]

Does a hood view work if you align the camera to the left or right so it feels like you are in a driving seat and not sitting on the gear stick?

I also wonder, was the hood view not in forza1 because the car damage was a few frames in lag before it reshaped the cars bodywork? I can imagne that being a bit iffy when youre always up close to part of the car.

On the subject of incar, f355's hand movement is so silky and great and pgr3's hands on the wheel feel realy stiff.

 

[Big Takeover]

By the way Che, where is that Monalisa pic from Forza Motorsport 1, that you kept talking about in that podcast with Major Nelson?

 

[JMPovoa]

Thanks, it does look good.
It's just that Che made me curious about it.

Now onto the topic. I haven't kept much to Forza2's new stuff, but is the multi screen gameplay remaining from the previous game?

 

[Gek54]

is the multi screen gameplay remaining from the previous game?

That might be worth two picking up two core packs.

 

[Diablohead]

Oh I remember that paint job, was realy well done.

I gotta show you all my first big paint job now, done like the night I got the game :lol

A shame the nissan slid everywhere!

 

[mrklaw]

Are you for real? The dev team has finite resources and time, so they aren't modeling the interiors. Do you realize what he said about roll cages and weight reduction? That would be 300+ cars multipled by those 2 major changes to the interior (and all the possible variations- stage 1, 2,and 3 weight reduction, etc).

If you don't want to buy the game fine but don't troll over something that has a very logical explanation (not an excuse). The 50 or so hardcore gamers whose purchase of the game hinges on PGR3 quality interiors and the associated loss of sales are easier to swallow than added development time and budget.

Don't accuse me of trolling. My opinion is that Chespace gave a relatively weak excuse for the lack of a cockpit view - something that many would like to see in Forza 2.

I understand what he said about modelling the interiors, which is why I suggested that there may be alternatives that get around that.

I can also understand if time/money pressures are the main reason, then fine. I just don't understand how others seemed to take the first comment and accept it so easily. Am I wrong for wanting what I know has been delivered successfully in Forza's peers?



BTW, F355 hood style view would be OK.

 

[chespace]

BTW, F355 hood style view would be OK.

There is a hood view, but no simulated windshield. Not sure if it will be centered or left/right side depending on car region.

Reason why we didn't do hood view in Forza 1 is because the car textures, especially the custom user-created liveries would look extremely ugly upclose like that. That isn't a problem in Forza 2, obviously.

 

[tahrikmili]

I'm sorry I just don't buy the time/money argument. PGR3 had the time/money to do it, and if Forza can't do it it's incompetence, plainly put.

 

[arne]

I'm sorry I just don't buy the time/money argument. PGR3 had the time/money to do it, and if Forza can't do it it's incompetence, plainly put.

PGR3 = ~80 cars x 1 type of interior = 80 interiors to render
Forza 2 = ~300 cars (I think?) x 3-4 potential types of interiors = 900 interiors to render minimum


want the job?

 

[chespace]

I'm sorry I just don't buy the time/money argument. PGR3 had the time/money to do it, and if Forza can't do it it's incompetence, plainly put.

Hmm, if it wasn't a time/money issue, then what is it? A philosophical or design disagreement?

Again, if lack of cockpit is a show-stopper for you, then I'm sorry you won't be playing Forza 2.

 

[Gek54]

nm, weight reductions and roll cage?

 

[arne]

PGR3 had only one view, since when?

What I mean is they only had to model 1 type of interior for each car. semantics. sorry.


which then for forza, to capture the sim aspect, you would have to do 3-4 types of interiors to account for weight reduction etc based on earlier replies.

 

[Gek54]

True but you dont HAVE to render weight reductions. Just like you really dont have render tire wear or different tire treads. Then again im not a big proponent of the cockpit view and would agree that putting resources toward more important things like say having blur as an optional effect. That F355 and WRC3 views are nice, hopefully the hood view comes close to those. Having the option to offset the camera left or right depending on where the driver sits would be great too.

Heres what I imagine it will look similar too.

 

[Twitchfactor]

What an UNBELIEVABLE attitude.

A feature that is hardly used on PGR3 isn't going to be found in Forza2, but a TON of other features, including the ability to customize your car at all and people bitch!?! UNBELIEVABLE!

You know, you're not really OWED any sort of explination. The game comes with the features it comes with and you should decide from those features (and hopefully the gameplay and not just "features), whether the game is for you or not.

It's amazing to me that developers would even surface on this board, given that they'll be bombarded with "you owe me", when they've been working their arses off, 10 & 12-hour days, weekend, crappy food, etc...etc...

BTW, I'm sure there are more ramifications for having an interior view than just roll cages and weight reduction, too. Just because PGR3 did something, it doesn't mean that an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TEAM can do the same thing.

The gaul...

 

[hgplayer1]

is this old? new?

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/11214/Forza-2-60fps-Better-Physics-and-PGR3like-TV-Confirmed/

original article link
http://www.xboxworld.com.au/articles/interviews/forza-2-interview---xbw-microsoft-game-studios.htm

60 fps locked at 720p. Ive paid pretty close attention to this thread and this kinda came as news to me.

not sure what to make of the photo mode comment. hopefully theyll just let us export to USB.

Im glad theyre doing a FMTV type thing. I watched some pretty entertaining races in PGR3.

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

i think that the interior view in PGR3 just made the whole driving-experience so much more immersive. well back to the old days ;-(

 

[arne]

i think that the interior view in PGR3 just made the whole driving-experience so much more immersive. well back to the old days ;-(

I might be the only one that thinks this, but if I'm playing with my nice FF wheel, the last thing I want is another wheel on the screen. I don't hold a steering wheel in my hand in front of me and then see another one a couple feet beyond that.

 

[Wendo]

Oh I remember that paint job, was realy well done.

I gotta show you all my first big paint job now, done like the night I got the game :lol

A shame the nissan slid everywhere!

How long did that take you?

 

[Wendo]

Yes, there is a car list and it is sitting right here on my desk.

I really hope ya'll have got a Honda Prelude Type SH in there.

 

[chespace]

Have you guys seen this Forza drift video yet? Every time I watch it I just think about how many takes and how much of a pain in the ass it was to make this video with Forza 1, considering how we don't let players save online replays or manipulate camera angles... so everything you see here is shot in real-time in multiplayer games. In some cases, these guys are holding down the B button to look backwards and drifting perfect corners. Nuts.

I wrote something up about it here: http://forzamotorsport.net/062106-01.htm

Tomorrow, I'm going to put up the interview of the guy who made it.

Anyway, here's the video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1246914107853418630&q=project+blackjack

You must see it. Skillz in action.

 

[Russ]

I might be the only one that thinks this, but if I'm playing with my nice FF wheel, the last thing I want is another wheel on the screen. I don't hold a steering wheel in my hand in front of me and then see another one a couple feet beyond that.

So true. That why the in just inside the windscreen view is perfect.

 

[Wendo]

Anyway, here's the video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1246914107853418630&q=project+blackjack

You must see it. Skillz in action.

Does Microsoft give you any crap for always using/linking google videos?

 

[parada911]

True but you dont HAVE to render weight reductions. Just like you really dont have render tire wear or different tire treads. Then again im not a big proponent of the cockpit view and would agree that putting resources toward more important things like say having blur as an optional effect. That F355 and WRC3 views are nice, hopefully the hood view comes close to those. Having the option to offset the camera left or right depending on where the driver sits would be great too.

Heres what I imagine it will look similar too.

Wow, that looks cool.

 

[Russ]

Dan Greenawalt:

I like the default cockpit view to be more forward and focused like TOCA. Again personally, I don't want to see the wheel and the dashboard when I'm racing. I want to see the A-Pillar, top couple centimetres of the dash/wheel and the windshield.

At least it sounds like he has the right idea when it comes to a good cockpit view and hopefully he is referring to this:

He then goes on to give all the possitive reasons why a cockpit is a good thing:

From a design perspective, cockpit view can be cool for several reasons - all depending on the implementation: 1) it can better emulate a real driving perspective and audio, thus it can be more immersive, 2) it can give the player better car to environment context, 3) using camera movement, it can provide a better sense of accelerative gravitational forces and "seat-o-the-pants" driving, 4) it can provide a player a chance to test drive a rare car that he/she would never get to in real-life.

Then in the same breath he contradicts all the possitives he just listed and tries to make some BS excuses to not use a cockpit view.

On the other hand,in car view isn't all roses: 1) Like disabling Transmission, ABS and Traction Control assists, it makes driving more difficult,

WTF Dan? You just said the cockpit view makes driving more immersive

2) unlike disabling Transmission, ABS and Traction Control assists, taking the added difficulty does not carry any potential for better lap times,

Didn't you just say it gives the player a better car to environment context and can help the driver better sense G-forces? How the bloody hell does that now make driving more difficult?

3) Up-res'ing one interior could take as much time as adding one new car to the game and we have 300 cars that would need the up-res'ed interiors,

You said you only want to see part of the A pillar and a few centimeters of the dash, why does that need up-resing?

4) Forza features a Weight Reduction Upgrade that would require us to build multiple high polygon versions of most interiors for each upgrade level.

So does that mean you are rendering all the different suspension packages and tire treads? Again I thought you only wanted to see a very minimal amount of the cockpit why would you render crap you wouldnt see?

 

[mrklaw]

what he said. If its an option for people to use, and they don't have to use it, then why would it matter *if* the negatives he mentioned are true?

And I never said this was a dealbreaker. Are we not allowed to be disappointed when features we hope for don't make it in?

 

[tahrikmili]

Hmm, if it wasn't a time/money issue, then what is it? A philosophical or design disagreement?

Again, if lack of cockpit is a show-stopper for you, then I'm sorry you won't be playing Forza 2.

I think it's a matter of design focus:

PGR3 = ~80 cars x 1 type of interior = 80 interiors to render
Forza 2 = ~300 cars (I think?) x 3-4 potential types of interiors = 900 interiors to render minimum

As arne noted, I'd rather have 80 WELL modelled cars with genuine interiors and decent cockpit views than 200 cars with no cockpit view for the simple fact that having a cockpit, steering wheel and dashboard on the screen does wonders for suspension of disbelief. Forza is a great game in many ways but it doesn't make you feel like you are driving - the closest view you can get to a cockpit view (which I wouldn't know how to describe, hood view without the hood?..) with the virtual dashboard gives me a sense of gliding on the asphalt, not driving. Gravitational forces are unobservable, engine sound and asphalt noise are not the way you would hear from inside the car and the driver placement is off (usually feels like you are sitting in the middle seat instead of the left/right driver seat of a car, etc.).

These are not showbreakers but I don't consider a driving game a simulation without a cockpit view and although it's not as decent a simulation as Forza is PGR3 offers a much more immersive driving experience for me. I'll be driving PGR3 until I can get Forza 2 for around 10$ on eBay, sorry.

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

che, any chance that we might get some downloadable interiors?

 

[Diablohead]

I think it's a matter of design focus:



As arne noted, I'd rather have 80 WELL modelled cars with genuine interiors and decent cockpit views than 200 cars with no cockpit view for the simple fact that having a cockpit, steering wheel and dashboard on the screen does wonders for suspension of disbelief. Forza is a great game in many ways but it doesn't make you feel like you are driving - the closest view you can get to a cockpit view (which I wouldn't know how to describe, hood view without the hood?..) with the virtual dashboard gives me a sense of gliding on the asphalt, not driving. Gravitational forces are unobservable, engine sound and asphalt noise are not the way you would hear from inside the car and the driver placement is off (usually feels like you are sitting in the middle seat instead of the left/right driver seat of a car, etc.).

These are not showbreakers but I don't consider a driving game a simulation without a cockpit view and although it's not as decent a simulation as Forza is PGR3 offers a much more immersive driving experience for me. I'll be driving PGR3 until I can get Forza 2 for around 10$ on eBay, sorry.

Personal feelings, you don't haev to buy forza on day1.

a game like forza needs tons of cars, if there was only 80 the game would... not feel right to me, its like gt5 only having 50 top graphic set cars instead of 200+, it just doesnt make a gt a gt.

You can always own both at the same time, nothing is wrong with that part.

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

but what about 150 cars but with modeled interiors instead of 300 (of which 200 aren't even worth or interesting enough to try out anyway)?

quality > quantity

 

[chespace]

Well, I can say for one thing... the game is going to look a lot better than this.

And yes, Ray Ozzie toooootally busts me when I link to google video, oh gawd I am so in the doghouse.

 

[marvelharvey]

He then goes on to give all the possitive reasons why a cockpit is a good thing:

Then in the same breath he contradicts all the possitives he just listed and tries to make some BS excuses to not use a cockpit view.

WTF Dan? You just said the cockpit view makes driving more immersive

I have to agree with Dan on this, I enjoy the incar view in PGR3, I like feeling the weight shift, I like seeing the dashboard infront of me and the pillars in the corner, I enjoy having to check my wing mirrors with a quick turn of my head, I like seeing the driver change gear... all these add up to a feeling of immersion as Dan describes. However, the positives of the interior cam are also negatives... now that I can see the dash and roof, suddenly the amount of pixels on the screen that are being used to inform me about the upcoming corners/cars are cut in half; now, there's a door pillar blocking my view to the left hand side; I'm sitting in an off centre position and not entirely sure exactly where they other side of my car is in relation to the oncoming wall; I can't look in the damn rearview/side view mirror without turning my head (and therefore not looking forward).

So, while the cockpit view is enjoyable, I do find that using it during a race impedes on my driving and I always switch back to the bumper cam view when I need to shave those few 10ths off of a laptime.

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

Ozzy toooootally busts me when I link to google video, oh gawd I am so in the doghouse.

fixed.

 

[Diablohead]

Didn't it also take ages for bizarre to model the 80 car interiors? starting now would delay forza untill 2008?

 

[tahrikmili]

Well, I can say for one thing... the game is going to look a lot better than this. .

Can you at least confirm it has decent anisotropic filtering on the track and multi sampling anti-aliasing at 720p done on the EDRAM?

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Have you guys seen this Forza drift video yet? Every time I watch it I just think about how many takes and how much of a pain in the ass it was to make this video with Forza 1, considering how we don't let players save online replays or manipulate camera angles... so everything you see here is shot in real-time in multiplayer games. In some cases, these guys are holding down the B button to look backwards and drifting perfect corners. Nuts.

I wrote something up about it here: http://forzamotorsport.net/062106-01.htm

Tomorrow, I'm going to put up the interview of the guy who made it.

Anyway, here's the video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1246914107853418630&q=project+blackjack

You must see it. Skillz in action.

It's a display of some awesome skills. But as an enthusiast I wouldn't be content with refining my drifting skills in Forza. My biggest gripe with the game is that every car could be used for drifting. The zone between oversteer and losing control is just much to big. It looks nice but it really doesn't feel right.

 

[Big Takeover]

PGR3 = ~80 cars x 1 type of interior = 80 interiors to render
Forza 2 = ~300 cars (I think?) x 3-4 potential types of interiors = 900 interiors to render minimum

As arne noted, I'd rather have 80 WELL modelled cars with genuine interiors and decent cockpit views than 200 cars with no cockpit view for the simple fact that having a cockpit, steering wheel and dashboard on the screen does wonders for suspension of disbelief. Forza is a great game in many ways but it doesn't make you feel like you are driving - the closest view you can get to a cockpit view (which I wouldn't know how to describe, hood view without the hood?..) with the virtual dashboard gives me a sense of gliding on the asphalt, not driving. Gravitational forces are unobservable, engine sound and asphalt noise are not the way you would hear from inside the car and the driver placement is off (usually feels like you are sitting in the middle seat instead of the left/right driver seat of a car, etc.).

Arne only gave half the picture. The other half is this;

PGR3 - 8 stock cars, 30fps, 1024x600. 2x AA
Forza2 - 12 customizable cars, 60fps, 1280x720(?), 4x AA

With a dev cycle of a year and a half, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[chespace]

Gravitational forces are unobservable, engine sound and asphalt noise are not the way you would hear from inside the car and the driver placement is off (usually feels like you are sitting in the middle seat instead of the left/right driver seat of a car, etc.).

Funny how this never comes up as a detractor for 4 entire GT games across 2 generations.

I wonder how GT5 will tackle this issue. IF polyphony does a cockpit view at all, my guess is that they'll take the "faked" Toca route (i.e., a few generic windshield and offset camera depending on region). Especially if they want to make '07 -- they're good devs, but they definitely aren't fast devs. I guess we'll see. They still have the benefit of the doubt because of an interview and a video from TGS.

I've also been playing a ton of MotoGP '06 and it's weird but that's the only racing game I play where I have to be in 3rd person -- otherwise, I can't judge distance or hit any apexes at all.

 

[DOBERMAN INC]

I cant believe the reaction the cockpit-view has caused, Its been done in ONE game well and people are acting like it should be standard in everygame after it.

because to be honest i want to see what the hell my car looks like after ive just grinded the side of another car, spun out control and crashed into the barriers.

how much can you notice with the cockpit-view?

bent hood?
wing mirrors?


Give it some time atleast maybe forza 3

 

[op_ivy]

che, i understand this question has almost no chance of getting answered, but i'mma ask it anyways...

where the hell is the media? i'm just flabberghasted that a game of this magnitude, which should be out this year, doesnt have a single screen released yet.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I cant believe the reaction the cockpit-view has caused, Its been done in ONE game well and people are acting like it should be standard in everygame after it.

because to be honest i want to see what the hell my car looks like after ive just grinded the side of another car, spun out control and crashed into the barriers.

how much can you notice with the cockpit-view?

bent hood?
wing mirrors?


Give it some time atleast maybe forza 3

I think it's actually just a bit ridiculous to expect in a game with a car volume like Forza. The amount of work involved would be astronomical. That's pretty much the bottom line. Either the game continues to make gameplay advances and come out frequently, or we wait seven years for each new one and while they were modeling 300 interiors, every other racing game has already lapped them with functionality and all other types of innovation.

Bottom line.

 

[Russ]

I have to agree with Dan on this, I enjoy the incar view in PGR3, I like feeling the weight shift, I like seeing the dashboard infront of me and the pillars in the corner, I enjoy having to check my wing mirrors with a quick turn of my head, I like seeing the driver change gear... all these add up to a feeling of immersion as Dan describes. However, the positives of the interior cam are also negatives... now that I can see the dash and roof, suddenly the amount of pixels on the screen that are being used to inform me about the upcoming corners/cars are cut in half; now, there's a door pillar blocking my view to the left hand side;

Well the point I was trying to make was that Dan was describing his ideal view with having only a minute amount of the actual cockpit on the screen so your blind spots are minimal while giving a more realistic point of view. I agree with you about the PGR3 view, it took up way too much of the screen and was not very natural nor realistic. Only in a Imax theater should you see that much of the cockpit. Unless putting the camera right behind the windscreen is giving them some kind of graphical glitches, they should be able to do so without worrying about up-resing or rendering anything that isnt already there. Unless for some reason they didnt render the A-pillar and top of the dash and made the windows completely nontransparent then there should already be enough of the cockpit rendered to create Dan's ideal cockpit.

Of course creating a new view means overcoming any graphical glitches caused by the view and more QA testing using the view, all of which may cost time that they cannot afford. If he would have come out and said as much, it would have been alot more understandable than contradicting himself and making up a bunch of weak excuses.

If anything it is good to hear that he shares my ideal cockpit view so theres hope for Forza 3. Oh and the fact that he loved using Track IR. Hopefully he can push for Micorosoft to have that functionality in the 360 camera.

Funny how this never comes up as a detractor for 4 entire GT games across 2 generations.

I wonder how GT5 will tackle this issue. IF polyphony does a cockpit view at all, my guess is that they'll take the "faked" Toca route (i.e., a few generic windshield and offset camera depending on region). Especially if they want to make '07 -- they're good devs, but they definitely aren't fast devs. I guess we'll see. They still have the benefit of the doubt because of an interview and a video from TGS.

Thank your good friends at Bizarre for creating such a buzz about the the cockpit view. In what possition are you to provide insight into what PD may ore may not do? Why are you always trying to deter attention to the Gran Turismo series? You seem to be the first to bring up GT in every Forza thread. I thought Turn 10 wasnt really worried about GT? Now you are calling the Toca view as bing the "faked route" when your BOSS just praised the TOCA view as bing one of his favorites?

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

I think it's actually just a bit ridiculous to expect in a game with a car volume like Forza. The amount of work involved would be astronomical. That's pretty much the bottom line. Either the game continues to make gameplay advances and come out frequently, or we wait seven years for each new one and while they were modeling 300 interiors, every other racing game has already lapped them with functionality and all other types of innovation.

Bottom line.

that's why downloadable interiors would be great.